• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Pokedex Entry 17: MARTIN LUTHER KONG (jr?)

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
if dk is the original dk jr, then martin luther kong jr. is just...perfect.

anyways, discuss this matchup. i personally think that

1. ivysaur spaces the **** out of dk and bullet seed is disgusting,

2. charizard has a better off stage game (better recovery, more edgeguarding options), better damage dealing (flamethrower *****, rock smash is very good), and a superior grab,

3. squirtle has to work a little to get inside but if he does, dk will not be happy at all. stringing attacks on dk is way too fun.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
Ivysaur 70 - 30, I will not settle for lower.

Charizard 55/45 - 60/40

Squirtle 35/65 - 40/60.

Can't explain now, I have to go soon...
 

Zephramrill

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
1,114
Location
Mississauga, ON., Canada
Well Onyx I think you definitely are wrong about Ivysaur, i have no idea where you are pulling that from.

Heres my first little synopsis, more detail later:

Squirtle gets ***** in this matchup, DKs range and power (and deceptive speed) are just too much and he really doesn't have any options. DKs bair essentially says goodbye to any chance squirtle has in the air unless you really mix it up. Squirtle must attack in and out and weave around the power that is known as Donkey Kong.

30/70

Charizard is interesting in this match because he outputs high damage and has good kill power as well. Flamethrower is a god send in this matchup and it needs to be used intelligently. Be careful of grounded UP+B by DK, it will make you hurt badly. The real problem for Char is that he can actually be killed early for once if he isn't careful.

45/55

Ivysaur has the tools to beat DK in some aspects, but by the same token DK has the same tools right back at you. You can space well with bair, razor leaf ***** DK and if you get a bullet seed OMGDAMAGE LOL. DK lives forever so you gotta kill him when you get the chance. IVY cannot risk getting put in the air by DK you will get gimped or spiked offstage, DKs bair ***** ****.

55/45 Ivy

Learn to tech the cargo throw (or button mash like crazy) if you can, it really sucks to get screwed if you aren't careful.

60/40 DK, it isn;t easy but an inexperienced DK might not adapt to all the tricks PT has.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
ivysaur totally outspaces dk. there is very little dk can do about it. dk's bair is nothing compared to mk/rob ownage, who are not limited by horrific vertical recovery. unlike mk, dk can't punish air dodges very well because his dair/fair take waay too long lol. bair edgeguarding really isn't a huge problem, honestly. regardless, if ivy plays at the top of its game, dk should very rarely be in a position to just keep swatting you with bairs.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
i'm going to wait a day to see how pt board feels about it before posting it over there
 

Zephramrill

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
1,114
Location
Mississauga, ON., Canada
Once DK knocks you off far enough (and he does it nice and early) he just camps the ledge and then pops a bair on you. I play good DKs all the time and I know what im doing when I recover. I exagerated up there but 70/30 Ivy is ridiculous. I love PT as much as you guys but there is a reason DK is high tier and we arent =(

I agree that Ivy's bair ***** in terms of spacing but... it only does 4 damage a pop which isnt much when you weigh as much as DK. Fact of the matter is, PT will need to be outdamaging DK 30%+ a stock if he wants to win. Over a course of a match thats 100 extra damage.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
ivysaur can easily outdamage dk. dk is sooooo vulnerable to bullet seed.

charizard can also outdamage dk. dk can't do much to flamethrower, and rock smash is very very useful on dk's BAD shield. probably the worst shield in the game. dk's also very vulnerable to zard's dair when he uses spinning kong. flamethrower might cancel the spinning kong out too, and do some more damage.
 

Toby.

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
3,156
Location
South of the border, west of the sun.
There's a DK player in my crew, so I know the matchup fairly well.

I agree with Steeler regarding ivysaur. The amount of damage you can get on DK is obscene, and proper spacing makes it extremely hard for him to do anything at all. I've never had trouble against DK with ivysaur. It's also super easy to gimp his recovery with the tether.

Charizard is closer to even. Whilst flamethrower is very good, overall DK has faster tilts that share a similar range. Because he is under no obligation to approach during flamethrower and can easily shield-> dodge if hit, his on stage game remains very difficult to outclass.

His spinning kong has invincibility frames on startup, which makes a dair spike more difficult if he hasn't been launched very far. Bair seems to clank with flamethrower, so more often than not my charizard vs dk battles end up being largely dependent on spaced bairs from both characters and rock smash if I get close.

Using fly to break through bair for a K.O has some merit, provided they dont DI out of it. If they do, expect a giant punch for your efforts.

Grab release to jab won't work, because dk has a faster jab. I dont think thats a very important note, but I thought I'd mention it.

Squirtle is interesting. It is initially very difficult to break through DK's wall of fast, long ranged tilts and bair. Once you do that, though, it is incredibly easy to build up signifcant amount of damage. Up Tilt x 3 -> uair->uair->jump->dair/nair/fair/uair/waterfall is really, really easy to achieve.

Of course if DK spaces correctly it can be **** hard to get that close to begin with.
 

PkTrainerCris

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
762
Location
colombia
I agree with tcranter
ivy can play pretty good against him, and bullet seed is easy to lan because DK's lack of "disjointedness"
charizard is pretty even, but be carefull, he can kill you easier than expected
Squirtle has to find his way to get in, but once he does he ***** hard, also its very hard to kill DK
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Ivysaur's advantage is large and significant. Donkey Kong is phat and is actually outclassed as far as spacing goes. There are only two times I ever tend to experience trouble:

1) If I make significant mistakes and Donkey Kong forces me off-stage. Bari edge-guard is large and scary and pretty hard to avoid. This is a more minor point, since Ivy's wins really big on-stage.

2) The larger concern: Actually killing Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong wins for landing kills, and if you try to get the kill with Ivy's you're probably going to die. Switching to Chariest is what I tend to do.

I would rate this 65 - 35 or at worst 6 -4. But its definitely an advantage.

Chariest is very close to neutral. I feel that Chariest is at a slight disadvantage when you compare standard attacks, DJ has just a tiny bit more range and speed on his tilts and Bari. Chariest does have what I consider to be an advantage when you compare specials. Both Flamethrower and Rock Smash will deteriorate D's shield quickly and effectively. D's Bari can be really annoying, but he has to aim well or eat a special or shield grab.
 

The Derrit

Smash Lord
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,153
Location
Somerville, MA
One of the reasons ivysaur hurts dk so bad is that you can completely dictate his recovery with your tether. If he shoots right for the edge, you can gimp him with enough time to react. If you go to tether early, he's forced to recover above the stage, many times landing with some lag and giving you time to grab or punish. I personally love playing DKs with ivysaur.
 

Zephramrill

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
1,114
Location
Mississauga, ON., Canada
uggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Why does everybody do this? Stop assuming you have the answer for every situation your opponent brings up in matchup threads, real matches do not work this way! We also need to assume we are facing a DK who is equally as competent as us. I'm gonna have to stop commenting on matchups for a while or im gonna blow a gasket..
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
Nair also ***** DK.

DK has a horrible approach vs Ivysaur. Ivysaur eats those alive with bad approaches.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
yeah dude. zeph, we are all in agreement that ivysaur ***** dk on stage and that both characters can effectively edgeguard the other. ivy has a strong advantage here. it's probably his best matchup imho.

with ivysaur, you can either keep it in to just keep racking up damage for a high percent kill (uair is REALLY EFFECTIVE here guys), or switch to charizard once you've gotten dk to about 100% since if your ivysaur spacing is anywhere decent, you should have less damage. charizard can then kill with a tilt or rock smash or just toss him off stage and edgeguard. fair is nice on dk because he kind of lacks a hitbox in front of him.

squirtle is strange...i mean, i've never had huge problems with squirtle, there are ways to get around dk's spacing...if you air dodge through an ftilt or something, you are in a good position. once you are inside dk, you have an advantage.
 

The Derrit

Smash Lord
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,153
Location
Somerville, MA
uggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Why does everybody do this? Stop assuming you have the answer for every situation your opponent brings up in matchup threads, real matches do not work this way! We also need to assume we are facing a DK who is equally as competent as us. I'm gonna have to stop commenting on matchups for a while or im gonna blow a gasket..
well where does this sound incorrect? i mean if you have some sort of reason why dk is so much better than ivysaur please put it out there. we're all aware that he has fast and powerful tilts, but for the most part ivysaur's game allows the player to stay away from them, and its not as if they're chainable with other things, they just knock you away.

squirtle dies at like 40 though, so i don't really think he has a good advantage here. dk's dsmash = game over.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
Can we please stop using the argument "DK is higher tier than us"...?
 

The Derrit

Smash Lord
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,153
Location
Somerville, MA
Can we please stop using the argument "DK is higher tier than us"...?
Agreed.

ALSO EVERYONE ON PT BOARDS

We should all have different sweetass avatars of pokemon. Onxy's is sweet, mine is sweet, typh's is sweet, MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE.

Retro's good cause he's the head and can do as he pleases

/sorry for offtopic
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Cant really argue. Charz and Ivy can out range DK and **** him on so many levels, Squirlte, because he is light, can be easily killed. Otherwise if you are a Squirtle expert(which I'm trying to become but still have good skill with the others), you should be able to rattle DK's cage.

If this match up were in the TL boards i'd have to chuckle some.

Boomberang = bannana >.>
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
Agreed.

ALSO EVERYONE ON PT BOARDS

We should all have different sweetass avatars of pokemon. Onxy's is sweet, mine is sweet, typh's is sweet, MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE.

Retro's good cause he's the head and can do as he pleases

/sorry for offtopic
Already Do (See above)
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Agreed.

ALSO EVERYONE ON PT BOARDS

We should all have different sweetass avatars of pokemon. Onxy's is sweet, mine is sweet, typh's is sweet, MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE.

Retro's good cause he's the head and can do as he pleases

/sorry for offtopic
there? happy? I have been wanting to do this for a while. I can multitask like that yeah.

Maining POkemon Trainer and Bombing with TL, with their powers combined form Electrode!
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
Agreed.

ALSO EVERYONE ON PT BOARDS

We should all have different sweetass avatars of pokemon. Onxy's is sweet, mine is sweet, typh's is sweet, MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE.

Retro's good cause he's the head and can do as he pleases

/sorry for offtopic
I would say to make a post of this, but I think Retro-mod might close it, lol.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
What are we talking about again? 0.o

O right MLK jr. What else is there to know. Hmm maybe I'll put Charz and Ivy to a good work out next time I get a rematch with Cyphus. -_- that dudes DK places well in tournies, you dont mess with that guy.
 

The Derrit

Smash Lord
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,153
Location
Somerville, MA
I would say to make a post of this, but I think Retro-mod might close it, lol.
This will be the last of the offtopic I PROMISE.

But yeah I think it would be sweet if we had a thread A) mandating PTs must have a sweet poke picture as their avatar and B) pretty much make the rest of a it a sweet pokemon picture thread. It'd be fun offtop stuff.

With Retro's permission of course :)

EDIT: This thread has been posted in DK boards, hopefully we'll see them come through soon!
 

OmniOstrich

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
1,393
Location
Raleigh, NC
DK KO's squirtle and Ivy early bc their predictable recoveries are easy to spike/bair off.

Cargo stage spike is godly in this matchup, if you get to ~70% DK can pull it off and you can't recover if you don't tech.

ground pound outranges ivysaur...minus the projectile (which ftilt cancels iirc)
 

powuh_of_PIE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
462
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
I may not have as much clout as some of the amazing DKs on the DK boards but I know the matchup fairly well, I play a pretty good PT from time to time and it's taught me a lot

You guys are right about Ivysaur, it's a ***** getting inside his spacing, and Bullet Seed usually has me cursing inside whenever I get caught. Razor Leaf has never been a huge issue for me, somehow it's easy to powershield if I haven't already Ftilted it. However, if Ivysaur gets sloppy there are decent ways in, such as grounded Up+B which has SA on startup and can do up to 30% if all the hits connect. Often they don't, so 10-20% is more common. Also, as noted before, using Bair too much to space DK will become less effective as he learns its timing and shields/SAs it and makes his way in. Once he gets there, dtilt->down+B works up to about 50% and does decent damage and pops Ivysaur up to where DK can start stringing Bairs together, mixing in Uairs and Nairs as necessary. Once Ivy is offstage, don't expect to tether that reliably as DK has a great edgeguarding game, any decent DK will net a stock on an offstage Ivysaur.

Charizard is interesting: he's somewhere between DK and Bowser, except somehow he seems slower than both of them. And any heavy not named DDD is usually going to have to worry about DK's killing power, as it takes away an advantage they are used to: their weight giving them survivability. DK himself suffers from this too, of course, so if he's just killed Ivy and at decent damage he's likely to be more scared of you than you are of him. Use this to maintain momentum, as DK's success depends on his momentum a fair amount.
Be careful, however, because in this matchup it's not hard for DK to keep the game at his pace once he gains some momentum: DK's moves are fast enough to keep the pressure on Charizard, at high levels of play DK will consistently beat Charizard on the ground with Ftilt, Dtilt and down+B. And after he gets a feel for your use of Flamethrower, DK can hop over and punish with Bair or side+B if he's feeling lucky.

And then there's Squirtle. Aah, Squirtle, I'm either pleased with how easy he is to toss around or annoyed at his aerial abilities. This happens whenever he gets inside DK's range, so DK will fight to keep you out, and he's pretty good at it. Your side+B will not work well here, DK's down+B sends you promptly in the other direction at about the same speed and his other fast ground attacks keep you out as well. Be warned that any DK who has mastered the GFSC Headbutt will probably end up ****** Squirtle in the shell till he needs a new one. Squirtle's size and surprising vulnerability to DK's spacing tools mean he will die quickly. It's probably worth it to switch and take whatever hit is waiting for you, Ivysaur is your best bet in this matchup.

tl:dr version:
Squirtle: 65:35 DK
Ivysaur: 60:40 or 55:45 Ivy
Charizard: Can't say exactly, often DK will end up at high damage vs Charizard due to just having faced Ivysaur. If he doesn't, it means he just lost a stock. Hovering between 60:40 and 55:45 DK just to be safe.

EDIT: Totally forgot abotu Razor Leaf, silly me -_-
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
ok, I actually have a decent amount of experience in this match, I've played typh, mooseking (ms king), and mickey, who are the 3 pt's in socal, not in tournament, but friendlies are close enough, cause honestly, you're lucky if you're in the same bracket as a pt.

Basics

Squirtle - squirtle gets *****. no way around it, we beat you completely in the air with bair alone. and you die at like 50 from punches, fsmash, and usmash. 70 from dsmash. you won't be able to get inside much, and a good dk will keep you at our tilt range, not much you can do here. btw, a grab at 60 is a ko for us, cargo - walk off stage - dthrow and you can't make it back, no stage spike needed.

another big problem for squirtle is that he can't really ko dk, unless he's dumb and runs into a fully charged fsmash, or can't di/momentum brake properly, he will live well into the 140-180 range, even when squirtle is fresh. when he gets tired, you aren't going to ko him, get him away and switch to ivy.

80-20, maybe a little bit lower, but not much. Unfortunately most pt's stop trying squirtle after a bit, so i can't judge the exact number

Ivysaur - ivysaur seems like he ***** dk, if the dk doesn't know what he is doing. if he can powershield the leaves, and uses downb smartly, ivy loses (his? her? it? gonna go with "it") it's ground game. if he can SDI, bullet seed loses some of its use. ivy gets juggled pretty easy, and doesn't last much longer than squirtle, it should make it to about 70-80 max just cause its attack are so easy to punish with a punch. Also, the grab trick works for ivysaur, so a grab at 60 will kill ivy too. Also, the dk should learn from his first upb ledge gimp from ivy and start landing on stage normally, it works much better, because ivy can't break upb. if he can land the upb without lag (any decent dk can do this) then ivy won't gimp dk.

don't get me wrong, the upb is a nice trick, but it only works once or twice if the dk learns from his mistakes (which he should)


Ivy has two redeeming qualities that separate him from the same level of **** squirtle gets though. First, he can actually ko dk. charge release usmash is scary as hell, and when he screws up his spacing, a fsmash can get him for a ko at a respectable number, at about 100-110 dk will have to start worrying about getting ko'd. aside from that, bair means that we will have to approach from the ground, which i don't mind personally, as a well timed upb is a much better approach than bairs. this can screw with dk's spacing game, a bit, and really screw up the mediocre dks that just bair, but it is punishable, and a running shield - grab/upb will get it every time. the good part is, we can't rely on just tilts/downb for spacing.

65-35 dk adv, he out ranges you on the ground, moves faster than you and kos earlier than you, literally bigger, faster, and stronger too. ivy can keep up though, typh really caught me by surprise with this, as i was expecting squirtle **** part 2, but ivy holds its own somewhat. unfortunately, i found ways around most of typhs tricks later on, so dk does have a definite edge.

Charizard - charizard is close to even, and not for the reasons you stated. firebreath is not a smart idea, as i will gladly take the 20% for the free headbutt - smash/punch combo. dk can DI up and towards charizard for a free headbutt every time he fire breaths. dk moves faster than charizard, and ko earlier. what makes this matchup even is how ridiculous charizard's rock smash is. it does like 40 damage, and puts us in a crappy position. charizard has a shorter stock, but does crazy damage to make up for it.

all in all pretty even, charizard is the best of the 3 in this matchup. dk's got slight adv due to speed/power/range

65-35 or 70-30 dk. from the sound of the discussion, the dk's you've been playing are either bad or don't know the matchup.

why is it that every low-mid tier board says there character goes even or has some dumb advantage on dk?

btw, last thing, why do you guys keep trying to grab release my dk? dk has the fastest ground break in the game as far as i know. I do know he is the only character that can ground break from bowser without bowser being able to land anything (only character who can do this).

on all characters not named bowser or yoshi, a grab break is a free dtilt combo for dk. don't try it, if he expects it, it will never work.

EDIT: guys above me, i got this, I've played a lot of different pt's, and dk-wise, I outrank you

Double edit :

summary, dk adv

zard 45-55 dk
ivy 35-65 dk
squirts 20-80 dk
 

The Derrit

Smash Lord
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,153
Location
Somerville, MA
EDIT: guys above me, i got this, I've played a lot of different pt's, and dk-wise, I outrank you

Double edit :

summary, dk adv

zard 45-55 dk
ivy 35-65 dk
squirts 20-80 dk
While important I think the fact that you're like, one of the best DK's will give you a pretty skewed opinion of the matchup numbers cause you're the best and you beat a lot of people much easier than most. So its important that everyone puts in input, and not just the best dk. I get that you play plenty of PTs but there's more angles to this than one.

And I think your numbers aside from zard are too high in dk's favor. i think squirtle gets pretty rocked but not ivysaur, not nearly that bad. And if there's something I don't know about that tips it (which is probable) what makes this such a one sided match?

EDIT: also, explain this walkoff downthrow. is this throwing us underneath the stage or away? cause away doesn't sound right.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
technically typh is the best pt, since he places at large tournaments with pt

so you have one of the best vs the best, which will give accurate matchup data.

then again, they were friendlies and we both sandbagged.

but the numbers i'm quite sure of. against a good dk (there are only like 9 of us though), squirtle can't do crap. bair shuts down the good part of his game, he has to play grounded against dk's beastly ground game, which is really bad for him. and he dies really early and does not ko. i'm quite sure dk destroys squirtle. 8-2 is not an understatement.

ivysaur, first off 65-35 isn't that bad. the only problem with Ivy is that he relies largely on tricks and things that don't work nearly as well when they know the matchup, so it appears he ***** at first, then he starts to get much worse once they learn your tricks and learn what not to do. spacing bairs is largely what ivy's got in this match. once he knows not to run into the **** and eat a bullet seed, ivy has to space bairs the whole time, cause it loses on the ground. luckily he can ko dk, which is something squirtle can't do. the kos and bairs keep this matchup from ****.

and charizard you aren't debating.

if you would like to bring up something you think i missed, go ahead

EDIT: i forgot, dk jr is this dk's dad. this is donkey cornelius funkmaster kong the 3rd
 

powuh_of_PIE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
462
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
EDIT: also, explain this walkoff downthrow. is this throwing us underneath the stage or away? cause away doesn't sound right.
It's called the Cargo Stage Spike (CSS), done by pushing forward after grabbing which puts you on DK's back (Cargo) then walking off and throwing you into the often slanted edge of the stage (Stage Spike). It can be escaped by teching against the wall, in which case a smart DK will simply throw you under the level instead of into it.

tl;dr It ***** you in the Pokeball.
 

highandmightyjoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
822
Location
Alexandria, VA
The stage spike can be teched though, and isn't that hard to do with practice. There is a variation where you just through them under the stage though, and that can be a bigger problem for certain characters.
 

The Derrit

Smash Lord
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,153
Location
Somerville, MA
not the stage spike, squirtle and ivy's recovery is bad enough the you can walkoff and dthrow them away from the stage and it'll gimp em
Oy. I've never had that done to me but I can visualize it and that sounds like it'd work pretty well, at least for ivysaur, probably squirtle too. dayum.

And while you seem very convinced of the ivysaur number (likely with good reason) could you be more specific? you're talking very vaguely which at the very least doesn't help us understand why you're right.
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
Bigfoot, numbers going above 7/3 normally invoule infinites or 0-death scenerios.

You description really looks like 7/3 just a hard counter. It's already considered a **** match up at this #.
 

typh

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
2,726
Location
eugene
imo

charizard > dk
ivysaur < or = dk

and dk just flat out ***** squirtle
 
Top Bottom