Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #20: Donkey Kong

throw stuff at him

Steel2nd said:

throw stuff at him

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Yes, genius. >_>

Well I think overall Toon Link has an advantage, because he can combo DK like **** and stuff, but DK can make up for it on stages which protect him from Toon Links spam such as Luigis Mansion which will give DK the advantage...

Definitely Toon Link advantage, though I'm not sure by how much. SH double arrows are brutal for DK, because it completely removes our option of using bairs. Powershielding projectiles and using f-tilt is our best option for approach, but TL can SH back out of range and come in with a zair.

In addition, Toon Link's combos work especially well on DK. Getting out of bair combos is extremely difficult, and we have to be extremely wary of the dair spike. You can even do the dair while still over the edge (just in case) and it will still hit and most likely kill us (barring a nice tech).

All that said, if you don't get a spike, DK is more than likely going to live to ridiculously high percentages. On top of that, he has little difficulty killing TL at relatively low percentages.

You just have to gay him with projectiles. Hes slow enough so that you just have to keep attacking him and play somewhat smart to win. I really don't know what else to say. Don't be stupid and get hit by his slow smashes. Don't get hit with his Bair chain. He has like 3 spikes that you should be able to avoid.

Counterpick levels like Lylat or Delfino Plaza.
Ban Jungle Japes and other small blast zones.

I don't believe this is a TL advantage. I think this is 50/50 from personal experiences since I have several friends who are TL mains.

His spam is his biggest strength over DK, but strategic stage picking and well-timed tilts can deal with boomerangs and arrows. Bombs can be grabbed and used against TL. When within range, the match-up becomes even. TL's Fair and Bair are beastly and can combo the hevay monkey easily. His Uair is disjointed like Link's but I've hardly ever been killed by it. His Dair spikes, but Upsmash breaks through it. Dsmash is fast, his both sides, and has good knockback, just as DK's does. But Dk can kill much earlier with his, so I see that as a win on his behalf. In the air, TL has the advantage if he's in the front but Bair works wonders against him. Upsmash is hella annoying, and seems to kill me more often that I'd like, but its still capable of being dealt with.

All-in-all, I feel this match-up is pretty even as long as the Dk doesn't allow the TL to get to out-of-hand and spam him to death. Closing the projectile gap is the biggest concern, and needless to say...Dk has several projectile stopping moves at his disposal. When in close, you have to remember that TL is quick...and can hit pretty hard for a light/fast character, so you can't simply hulk through hits like you could with some other characters in his class.

My roommate plays Tink so I play this matchup a lot. It seems pretty close to even to me, either 50-50 or 55-45 either way.

Tinks projectiles are the big concern here, but as mentioned earlier, DK has alot of options in terms of swatting those. However, a good Tink player will spam intelligently so if DK gets predictable in his response to the spam he can get punished. Learning to powershield consistently is the best thing a DK player can do to help themself out in this matchup.

On the ground DK has the advantage, but again a mistake can lead to trouble. Spacing is very important in this matchup. Once Tink starts comboing DK it can lead to some pretty good damage, but DK has alot of options to prevent him from starting. Once DK gets inside the projectiles he can really put pressure on Tink.

In the air though, Tink has DK's number. DK gets juggled pretty badly here.

In terms of killing though, DK has his biggest advantage. Not only does DK kill Tink alot earlier than Tink kills him, but his edgeguarding game is better too. Of course Tink does have his spike, and it can kill DK very early(by DK standards) if it lands, but it shouldn't be too hard to avoid if your smart about it.

So overall, DK needs to first get inside, once there he can put on a lot of pressure, and kill Tink early. However, this is offset by Tinks ability to make you suffer for your mistakes, and put on some good damage.

On paper I would have to say that it looks like a Tink advantage, maybe 60-40. But personal experience with the matchup says otherwise. I would call this even, but as someone mentioned earlier, stage choice can make a big change for this matchup. Depending on where you are it can easily become 70-30 either way.

I'm also going to agree that stage selection is very important here. I'm sure any TL main would already know this, but you don't want to go anywhere near Luigi's Mansion, especially against DK. Japes seems like it should work due to your camping game, but it often just results in DK getting much easier kills.

sasukebowser said:

You just have to gay him with projectiles. Hes slow enough so that you just have to keep attacking him and play somewhat smart to win. I really don't know what else to say. Don't be stupid and get hit by his slow smashes. Don't get hit with his Bair chain. He has like 3 spikes that you should be able to avoid.

Counterpick levels like Lylat or Delfino Plaza.
Ban Jungle Japes and other small blast zones.

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Just curious why CP Delfino? DK gets water spikes, wall infinites, and walk off cargo kills there. What are Tinks advantages?

Ledgecamping lol.

/semi-serious response.

Usually Delfino is considered due to its large amount of free space to run about. Water allows for less risky dairs, walls allow for some dtilt locking (although TL's Dtilt wasn't made for that >_>), he can get some easy kills with certain parts having walk-offs and low ceilings.

However, against DK, it could be the fact that some stage transitions allow for gimps to happen. Not really enough to justify it as a good DK CP. Really a TL would probably go for Norfair if it's not banned and he truly wanted to win. No?

I see. I knew Tink had some advantages there, but I have had good experiences agaisnt Tinks on Delfino so I really didn't think of it as a good CP.

highandmightyjoe said:

Just curious why CP Delfino? DK gets water spikes, wall infinites, and walk off cargo kills there. What are Tinks advantages?

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Toon Link has "infinites" against the wall, water spikes, Cargo kills are really preventable.

And the ledges suck for DK.

Camp him to death... but still for a heavy weight DK can still make it through...
His close range game pwns all!
So if your in range make sure its for the kill...
Off stage low = dead
spike his up-b
if hes recovering high use projectiles to nudge him lower...
His fair spikes and side-b semi spikes...

HIS neutral B IS DEADLY!
try not to let him fully charge it...
But if you get killed once just know hes going to have it charged...
Aviod it at all cost!
it kills at low% a DK main might know the exact %...
Overall just get him off stage it should be done...

thats all I got atm

DK's bair, his key attack, is beaten by TL's bair. TL has projectiles and better approaching so he beats DK there. The biggest strength in this match-up is the fact that TL has a better spacing game. DK has long range tilts and smashes, however, TL has three projectiles and disjointed hitboxes. My brother used to play an AMAZING DK and could pull off the Giant Punch with excellence. TL is good against this for one reason, spacing.

TL beats DK cause of spacing and approaching.

ThaRoy said:

DK's bair, his key attack, is beaten by TL's bair. TL has projectiles and better approaching so he beats DK there. The biggest strength in this match-up is the fact that TL has a better spacing game. DK has long range tilts and smashes, however, TL has three projectiles and disjointed hitboxes. My brother used to play an AMAZING DK and could pull off the Giant Punch with excellence. TL is good against this for one reason, spacing.

TL beats DK cause of spacing and approaching.

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What? TL has a better bair than DK? I don't think that...

Um anyway I think it's TLs advantage on stages like FD or SV (55:45, it's nothing too big).
But on most other stages I think DK has 60:40 (Luigis Mansion, Battlefield and others).


I'm not sure anymore how this matchup is, because I got beaten by a TL sometimes, but the last time I fought him he couldn't beat me. DK was way too good for TL. I could kill him really early and have so much more range and I guess I just played smarter. He also spammed projectiles, but this didn't help him much. I also beat him on SV, I think it was a 2 stock... >_>


So yeah I really don't know how this matchup is right now.
The last time I fought against him I was sure that Tink has an 55:45 advantage or maybe even 60:40, but now I think it might be 55:45 for DK. On good DK stages it is probably 60:40.
I also 3 stocked him on LM, but that might be because he didn't know the stage well.


I think for Toon Link FD would be good against DK, because there are no platforms where DK can hide from your spam.

And the best stage for DK against Toon Link is Luigis Mansion... because there he can charge his punch easily, he's protected from your projectiles, he can down B the hell out of you and he will NEVER die (220+).


Also, I think Delfino is an ok DK stage, not sure how it is for Toon Link though.


You might have noticed that I wrote "I think" too much and that's because I'm not really sure

Stay inside on Luigi's mansion?

^ never go to luigis mansion against dk.

@ tharoy, no, it doesn't, when dk is in the air you want to hit him with a projectile so he turns around, his bair beats your whole air game when used right.

stages to ban are lylat, sv, japes, brinstar, delfino, and luigis mansion.

sv because it's a smaller stage that diminishes your camp game.

lylat, japes, brinstar, luigis, and delfino because they're by and far dk's best stages (maybe with pokemon stadium 1 included).

the matchup works out like this: you keep us the hell away from you, once we get inside, we eat your face. You'll know when dk is spacing right because your tilts won't reach, and you'll get hit out of your projectiles before you can get them off. if you already have a bomb out, you can bomb us and hope it works, but other than that dk will keep his spacing till you're at some pretty decent %.

other things

gimps - dk gimps you, bair, fair and dair will work depending on timing, it isn't hard, expect to be gimped at least once in a set. you can gimp dk if you land a dair, but his recovery moves pretty fast, you can risk it if you really want, but you'll miss more than hit.

ko's - dk outlives you a lot. like, more than a lot. you die pretty early (60's for punch/fsmash/usmash, 80's for dsmash and fthrow kills, 100ish for uair + other random ko's). you kill him in the 140+ range. I can usually get my stocks up to 180 with our momentum brake + good di + not running into fully charged usmash.

That's all i got, I can't give you a number because we have no good toon links out here. I think the only decent one i played was when i went out to dallas, some guy named antichrist, still beat him though. unfortunately most of the tinks are in areas where there are no dks

Yeah but if he picks LM.
Stay inside?

Toon's favor IMO.
Throw lotsa stuff at him, bombs from above work nicely to get in a bair combo or even a fair if your going for the kill. He's heavy, so U-tilts and bairs are nice way to way to start off his stocks. His recovery goes in a somewhat linear path, and can be easy to spike if you know what your doing.


His weight also means hes going to be hard to kill, and Toon has killing issues as is. Doesn't help that he has powerful attacks to kill you at very low percents. His recovery has insane priority, so trying to land a fair off stage will probably not happen. He also doesn't get much vertical distance on his recovery, grabbing a ledge when he expects to to grab it could be lethal for him.
I either find myself killing him one of 3 ways.
1: Spiking his recovery
2. Hanging low from a tether when he expects to grab the ledge
3. If all else fails, spam and camp until he's very high, then U-tilt/Usmash kill.

Now for DK's side. Ouch.
Usmash, Fmash, Dsmash, U-tilt, Bair, Fair, Nuetral B..... He has plenty of options for killing you.
Space to stay mid range, just out of his bair's reach. He also has 4 meteor smashes... I suggest mixing up your recovery. Once your at even mid percents, you probably won't get back from a fully charged neutral B, when its charged, stay long range and try to bait him into using it if he gets too close.
As for his Cargo kill... well I hope you know how to tech it.

Approaches:
I start off pretty much every match with a Sh Bomb pull -> quick draw
If he isn't already in your face by then, hes probably charging a neutral B. Space mid range and try and poke at him with zair, if it lands follow up with a nair -> quickdraw, or if you have a bomb, go for the VietG combo at low percents.

If hes already close, he's probably going to start bairing you, Power shield it, and if hes still in the air, run under him and start U-tilting at low percents, Bair at mid-high.
Dash attacks and other approaches with noticeable ending lag, shield grab, or if your not comfortable with possibly missing a grab, powershield and punish.

Camping is a decent option here, proper spam can keep him at bay for abit, but with his speed and reach, it won't be long before he gets to you. SHDA is nice here. If you get the chance to run from him, run->Sh bomb pull-> Pivot quickdraw

I'm not very good with CP's but in this case I'd say Delfino , you can go for safe spikes in the water areas, and hes a fairly big target. and his recovery isn't going to be of much use if hes low and the platform is moving.

Probably a 60:40 Toon's favor

itsthebigfoot said:

@ tharoy, no, it doesn't, when dk is in the air you want to hit him with a projectile so he turns around, his bair beats your whole air game when used right.

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I assume zair would out range DK's bair

itsthebigfoot said:

You'll know when dk is spacing right because your tilts won't reach, and you'll get hit out of your projectiles before you can get them off.

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LOL at the idea of TL using his tilts to space. TL uses his zair to space, which is probably at a similar range to most of DK's ground game.

Alot of people here are disregarding TL's best move, the zair.

i dont see this as a toon link advantage at all. i see this more as 50/50 and t links projectiles dont save him as much as you would think. especially if they start spamming arrows i find it very easily to avoid them. i know this matchup very well since friends i play with main tlink and the arrows are easily PS or side stepped. if they throw bombs its a bad idea because they will become ours and the boomerang is probably their best projectile since it can hit us when it comes out or as it comes back. i never have a problem charging my paunch because theres only so much a person can do with projectiles unless they are pit or falco. usually when a toon link tries to gey me with his arrows i just approach and punish him with a well timed africa paunch and go right through his laggy arrow attack. i do not say this is an easy match up since both characters have roughly the same speed in attacking and movement. i can assure you its no walk in the park no matter what stage t link picks. his z air may be his best move but its very punishable and easily seen coming and i would also say its one of his laggier moves to be doing in the air.

^
I honestly can't tell if thats a serious post.


I like calling everything 60-40 against TL, but he seriously has the advantage in this match up.

Yea its more 55:45 Toon Links favor...
he makes a few good points but a good Toon Link wouldn't keep spaming arrows if steady power shielding...
And no DK is frame perfect matter of fact no one is that good to power shield most of what a spamming toon link throws out.
Dont get me wrong tho DK is one of the only heavy wieghts that can avoid projectiles extremely well...

Bair spam helps here since DK is a heavy character. It's definetly in TL's favor, big = better for Toon Link. I like big targets. Always will too. Boomerang, bombs, arrows, hookshot. All of it are big helpsies here.
They can avoid them, but not forever.

It's definitely in TL's favor, maybe something around what Iron said. I was thinking 40:60 TL's favor, but that's just me.

sasukebowser said:

^
I honestly can't tell if thats a serious post.


I like calling everything 60-40 against TL, but he seriously has the advantage in this match up.

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yes my post is serious. and 60-40 seriously that does sound off but i like to see things more evenly since the spamming of his projectiles is slow and is easier to dodge. But i did forget to add something in my previous post. i am not saying that i never get hit by projectiles (i know i kinda made it seem that way) since its impossible but i do not get hit very often. yes we are not frame perfect on it but we are not slow like most big characters. it is more often we will not get hit by the attacks then be hit by them. even if we are hit by them we can trade off hits with up b (which at low % can deal lots of dmg around 20%-36%) or africa paunch. im sure getting hit by either of those is a lot worse than being hit by a arrow. if a t link uses his projectiles sparingly its more often they can hit with them than someone who tries to abuse it. the bombs can be mixed up with the boomerang since the boomerang can be bounced off the ground for a bit of mind games. i would not recommend using the arrow if DK is at mid range since thats a bit risky. all in all i do believe this is a 50/50 match up but just because of the spamming of projectiles ill give it a 55/45 tlink favor.

ZxChrono said:

stuff about projectiles.

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You act like all Toon Link has are projectiles.
Its called other moves.
Toon Link has them.
Projectiles are like half TL's game at most.

Its like 60-40 or more of advantage for Toon Link imo.

all of these other moves you talk about are out ranged by dk. when its up close its all about who has more experience and that is all dependent on the player and not the character. avoid moves by rolling is not wise because of down b. the projectiles give him the very slight advantage but once he loses that its a even match. both characters have heavy hitting moves and moves that come out quick. DK's recovery would be his biggest downfall but t link being a slim character against a fast heavy hitting monkey is bad as well.

._.

...... Dude what are you even talking about?

Uhh okay. Zair. Toon Link's like, best move. Out ranges DK. Auto cancels.

Toon Link's don't usually even roll. Against anyone.

Toon Link doesn't have "heavy hitting moves that come out quick" and neither does DK.

DK has one of the most spike-able recoverys in the game if hes recovering from a distance.

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The thing about this match up is that DK kills early, while TL takes forever to kill someone. TL has an easy time raking up damage against DK, while DK has a hard time getting hit.

sasukebowser said:

You act like all Toon Link has are projectiles.
Its called other moves.
Toon Link has them.
Projectiles are like half TL's game at most.

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You're a horrible, filthy liar.

Toon Link only has a B button. Everybody knows that.

So it evens out then?

sasukebowser said:

._.

...... Dude what are you even talking about?

1.Uhh okay. Zair. Toon Link's like, best move. Out ranges DK. Auto cancels.

2.Toon Link's don't usually even roll. Against anyone.

3.Toon Link doesn't have "heavy hitting moves that come out quick" and neither does DK.

4.DK has one of the most spike-able recoverys in the game if hes recovering from a distance.

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5.The thing about this match up is that DK kills early, while TL takes forever to kill someone. TL has an easy time raking up damage against DK, while DK has a hard time getting hit.

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1. you said other moves. are you telling me your depending on one predictable move to cancel all of dk's moves? not to mention if you dont hit with it and you are using it as a approach and not defensively then it will be punished.

2. that is player dependant, you cant generalize it with a character.

3. i think you might want to re read what i posted since i said "both characters have heavy hitting moves and moves that come out quick."

4. i totally agree and i believe i mentioned that.

5. i agree with that.

Zair is helpful, I will give you that, DK has some answers to it, but overall it does help Tink a whole lot here. I will also grant that DKs recovery can be easy to spike at times, though not as easily as alot of people here seem to think. However, DK still has the advantage once he gets inside. Yes Tink has other good moves besides his projectiles, but against DK almost all of them are outranged.

The matchup really depends on how well DK can get inside. If you can keep him away well enough, and combo him when he makes mistakes, then you can put enough damage on him to get a kill. However, if DK does manage to get close he can put some major pressure on and doesn't even need that much damage to score a kill, and alot of his kills are faster then you think, especially the Dsmash. That is why I say it is so dependant on the stage. A stage that allows DK to approach easily and stay there will make this matchup very difficult on Tink.

I still call this about even, with a heavier than usual dependence on the stage.

ZxChrono said:

1. you said other moves. are you telling me your depending on one predictable move to cancel all of dk's moves? not to mention if you dont hit with it and you are using it as a approach and not defensively then it will be punished.

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Can you or another DK main explain how DK can punish zair when it is used at almost max range? I'm just curious

1. I'm pretty sure it out ranges all of DK's moves.

2. It auto cancels so it is lagless.

3. We can airdodge an attack immediately (or at whenever time needed) from a short hop before using zair.

4. Even if zair is "predictable", it is lagless and can be followed up with ANYTHING

The only way I can see DK getting past it is perfect shielding/dodging.

If zair is used at max length and as a retreat (to some aspect) then DK shouldn't be able to get close enough to TL to start using his own attacks (until TL runs out of stage)

Of course, zair obviously isn't the only move TL will/should use, but in theory I think TL can use it 9/10 times without being punished.
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Add in Toon Links projectile game and this already looks like a 60:40 advantage for TL to me.

ok, I played some rounds and can safely say that there is no way tink has the advantage, and unless santi and chip have some crazy shenanigans i haven't seen, it's a dk advantage.

it reminded me quite a bit of the samus matchup

heres a few things

tinks adv
- he will camp the hell out of you, it's just what he does
- if you go into the air wrong, he will get a combo on you
- you're always in the air, meaning dk's downb, dtilt, and sideb are not very useful

dks adv
- he gimps you
- he does not get gimp
- he ko's you early
- he dies VERY late
- he can approach quite well with upb/high angled ftilts
- his bair > you in the air
- he can get out of your bair combos with a buffered csticked uair or upb

yeah, basically, you're floaty, and are only safe recovering low, which mean dk's bair is very good for gimping you. the only times dk should get spiked, however, are when he A. screws up a gimp attempt or B. tries to ledgehop a uair while you're right above him, basically, only when he makes a big mistake.

for kos, your ko moves will be limited to uair and punishing very badly spaced attacks. as long as dk has a punch stocked you will not get off a charge release smash, meaning your options are very limited.

for our kos, unfortunately, fsmash does not work as well in this matchup (only for punishing and when you're on the ledge.) But, usmash is still very landable on platform stages, punch still works fine (and will hit every time you go for a charge release) and dsmash works better in this match than any I know of. it seems to always hit at the tip when you're spacing aerials. honestly though, 50% of my ko's in this match have been from bair gimps and upb ledge stalling.

also, if we're over 100%, and you're past 70, a grab near the ledge is a ko, walk off - dthrow away from the stage - time slow get up roll to gimp your recovery

the matchup really reminded me of a better version of samus, cause every tink i played just camped me to hell, trying to find a spot for a combo, poking with zairs if she (he for tink) can't get in. but dk's upb goes through zairs/projectiles if you can time SA. also, like samus, you will gimped easily. you're just better at killing (the samus stock difference is more like 110, yours is only 70-80) otherwise the matchup is quite similar.

i gotta play chip or santi, hopefully chip comes down to socal some time

6-4 kong

EDIT:

1. I'm pretty sure it out ranges all of DK's moves.

2. It auto cancels so it is lagless.

3. We can airdodge an attack immediately (or at whenever time needed) from a short hop before using zair.

4. Even if zair is "predictable", it is lagless and can be followed up with ANYTHING

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only number 2 and are right
1. ftilt, fsmash, upb and the back end of utilt all beat it

4. if it's predictable, we can punish before it happens/block it

to punish it just run up and normal shield, powershield not needed, that thing does not have much shield stun or rush in and rar bair or upb, they all work, i've also rolled in - dsmash against the predictable ones.

itsthebigfoot said:

dks adv
- he gimps you
- he does not get gimp

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I don't agree with this. DK's recovery is much more predictable then TL's. We are floaty enough to not need our Up B in most situations that would count as a "gimp." Our Up B shouldn't be getting "gimped" until high percentages where TL would die from a smash anyway.

itsthebigfoot said:

- his bair > you in the air

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That's a bit of an overstatement. Is his bair really THAT good. And what if TL is in front of DK while they are in the air?

itsthebigfoot said:

yeah, basically, you're floaty, and are only safe recovering low, which mean dk's bair is very good for gimping you.

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Not true. Toon Link will recover from high above with projectiles if he is at low percents (because as you said, he is very floaty). Only at high percents are we forced to use UpB. Toon Link really shouldn't be getting gimped at low percents (disregarding a bad mistake of course).

itsthebigfoot said:

but dk's upb goes through zairs/projectiles if you can time SA.

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So is DK's Up B like a weaker MK Tornado? I can't say I've ever seen a DK put it to much use offensively.

---

Just some things you should consider with your opinion.

itsthebigfoot said:

only number 2 and are right
1. ftilt, fsmash, upb and the back end of utilt all beat it

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Ftilt is the only move you should be using out of those.

By the time Ftilt comes out, Zair will be over and it will be perfect/regular shielded.

itsthebigfoot said:

4. if it's predictable, we can punish before it happens/block it

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Meta Knight's Glide attack is also predictable.

itsthebigfoot said:

to punish it just run up and normal shield, powershield not needed, that thing does not have much shield stun or rush in and rar bair or upb, they all work, i've also rolled in - dsmash against the predictable ones.

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Please play a Toon Link that doesn't suck and actually knows how to space Zair, and then we'll talk. None of those options work.

Dsmash. Honestly.

All of your argument sounds like your going up against a general player, not a Toon Link specialist.

I feel like I'm restating what's already been said, but arrows and (perfectly spaced) zairs are very good in this matchup. Assuming the zair is done right, I'm pretty sure DK's only way to punish it would be powershield to forward tilt (and even then, I'm pretty sure TL can get his shield up).

The important thing about your projectiles is that they turn us around. I'm usually able to eventually get into a position where I can get some bairs going, but not before eating multiple arrows and such.

Anyway, my experience is that this is TL advantage. Probably only 55-45, though, mostly because of the difference in weight and killing power.