Match-Up Week #19 : Wolf

Blad01 · Dec 17, 2008

Week #19 : Wolf

The dark side of the spacies ! He has a pretty annoying laser, but most of all a godly Bair ! One of the safest moves in the game. We used to think that chaingrab killed that match-up, but wolf has a spacing that allows him to escape the grab a lot (maybe not during all the match though), and as the metagame evolves, the chaingrab to spike won't probably be deadly anymore (since it can be teched). So finally... ~~WHo is the best pilot ?~~ Do we still have an advantage ?
Discuss !

Sesshomuronay · Dec 17, 2008

If wolf can tech really good then I think it would be pretty even. Falco still has the chaingrab for % which would stop it from going in wolfs favor.

Hyo · Dec 17, 2008

From what I can get from the wolfs I play, the matchup is in our favour as long as we can get the chain spike off (teched or not)

The 50 or so damage we can deal with the full thing is a ridiculous advantage, and we can mix it up with pillars and DLX if we know they can tech it.

His laser is really annoying - it spaces really well - and with the addition of the close range attack on it, difficult to maneuver around. However, it is possible. We can camp him better because our lasers are faster, and we have better close game over all.

We have to avoid his forward smash that can be stutter stepped, and his back air should be avoided completely. Something that really helps against wolf is gimping. Wolf has one of the shoddiest ledge grab boxes in the game. So even if he has a greater recovery (barely) we both have difficulties getting back.

That being said, the CG really brings this match to us. Without it, I don't think we'd have much of an advantage, as wolf can easily control a match.

60:40.

Vlade · Dec 17, 2008

Don't forget that mindgames can come into play after the chaingrab.

But really, falco racks up insane damage with the chaingrab against wolf, up to 60% I think after the spike. If they know how to tech, then just spike them into the ground and tech chase from there. Or just chaingrab them off the edge and let them use and aerial because they are smash DI-ing. Drop down and bair to finish him off. Falco kills a lot quicker than wolf even without the spike.

Wolf's bair is godly though. If you're recovering watch out for this because it is a wall of pain. Tap DI up to decrease the number of hits wolf can get in. Some wolfs also like edgeguarding with lasers, so be cautious about ledeghopping because it can really screw you up. Also, don't go to close to wolf because his reflector is very fast and is often followed up by fsmash or dsmash (low %).

Just my brief thoughts on the match-up. Usually I 2 or 3-stock wolves so I don't really pay attention to analysing the match-up. But this is a match-up where playing aggressively helps.

Hyo · Dec 17, 2008

I always found being very bouncy helped a lot with wolf.
Maybe it's just me, but Falco is a little more acrobatic than wolf, and can move a lot more fluidly.

I tend to do a lot of hit and runs, and patiently wait for a grab.
The grab will happen, but if we force it we'll take more damage than the grab can dish out.

JCav · Dec 17, 2008

hello im stupid for not knowing this but how do you tech the 0-death?

clowsui · Dec 17, 2008

sdi and tap di towards the stage when the spike hits you
press r when the spike hits you/right before i think
you'll tech

JCav · Dec 17, 2008

clowsui said:
sdi and tap di towards the stage when the spike hits you
press r when the spike hits you/right before i think
you'll tech

hmm... thank you

matchup 65:35 imo

bowz · Dec 17, 2008

Any stage that has a platform the match is about 50:50

Final Destination or an unreliable platform stage 65:35 Falco advantage.

Reasons why. Wolf can camp on any platform and basically destroy Falco's attempt to get chaingrab. Stops lasers with reflector. Any aerial attempt is stopped by a (ithink) autocanceled dair. You can get some Nairs in, but the chaingrab will be useless once he comes off the platform. That's when he gets to even up the match up

Not only that, but Wolf's reflector gimps the hell out of falco. It's so simple, I could give the matchup 60:40 wolf, but it's still too situational.

Mith_ · Dec 17, 2008

I seriously have problems with Wolf. Maybe I am playing Falco wrong (thats prolly it) but the only thing Falco has on Wolf is the chaingrab which he can tech and recover from. Wolf's Laser + Reflector game is superior to ours, and so is his Bair. Wolf's spacing is also better than ours. Only thing Falco has really is mindgames. Can somebody please enlighten me?

8AngeL8 · Dec 17, 2008

Even without the CG, Falco outcamps Wolf pretty hard. Keep him away with lasers, and throw out some nairs and bairs when he gets close. No good wolf will be approaching by ground, you'll just need to observe him and slip in a nair in between his attacks. Get your hit in, and try to space yourself away to continue camping.

70:30 Falco's favor when you include the chain grab.

Mikey7 · Dec 17, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
Even without the CG, Falco outcamps Wolf pretty hard. Keep him away with lasers, and throw out some nairs and bairs when he gets close. No good wolf will be approaching by ground, you'll just need to observe him and slip in a nair in between his attacks. Get your hit in, and try to space yourself away to continue camping.

70:30 Falco's favor when you include the chain grab.

Wolf outcamps Falco, Falco has to approach.

8AngeL8 · Dec 18, 2008

Not from what I've played. If Wolf tries to laser, Falco's come out faster. If he uses Reflector, Falco can wait him out. If he approaches using reflector, then Wolf is approaching, not Falco.

~ Gheb ~ · Dec 18, 2008

If Wolf can realiably survive the Chainspike, there's no way that Falco has the advantage. Falco is a bit faster but Wolf wins range by a clear amount and Falco might have KO issues. Fsmash is a biit too slow to KO a campy character who doesn't leave himself open for so long and usmash/dsmash need high% to KO successfully.

With the Chainspike = 7/3
without the chainspike 55/45

Blad01 · Dec 18, 2008

Camping game / Long range game : Both have lasers, both have reflector... All depends on the reactions off each player. At long distance, wolf can only reflector though, so he has to approach (at least until his laser can hit us). We can't reflect his lasers, but we can reflect our lasers already reflected by Wolf :psycho:

Falco, thanks to his IAP, can punish an error on Wolf's side very easily. It allows him to approach really fast too, and to get a grab rapidly. But the wolf can just stand there and laser... In that case, you can :
1) Laser on your side, but at a longest range, so you win the camping game (but you sacrify your grab).
2) Make him use his reflector (but short hopping without using a laser), to create an opening for your IAP > Grab.

Camping Game (and camping game only) : 60 - 40.
If Falco wants the grab : 40-60, or even 35-65 if the Wolf lasers no matter what happens. Then you wan jump over the lasers, but Wolf has the upper-hand.

Mid-range game : Wolf has Bair, Falco has laser and reflector. All our aerials get outprioritized by Wolf's Bair (well at least outranged), but our lasers are very helpful here (SHDL and follow-up). Reflector can be helpful too, but is too laggy.
I'm not sure of the conclusion... 60-40 i would say. You have slightly the upper-hand : If Wolf uses reflector, you follow with yours.
Falco and Wolf also have both a Boost Smash, but it's risky for them to use it in theory, because the are open to close-range game (\/)
Wolf(s FSmash is in the same case.

Close-range : Hum... Really difficult to see who has the advantage. Wolf has Bair (I'm sure you had guessed that), Fair, Reflector, good grab game, DSmash, Jab, FTilt... And Falco has lasers (yes, they're useful at all ranges), Dair, Bair, Jab and most of all grab... I would say it's pretty even, but in theory Wolf's aerial game > Falco's, and Falco's ground game > Wolf's, in this match-up at least.
50 - 50

Off-stage game : Well Wolf is easier to gimp than Falco. So 60 - 40 Falco easily.

Killing : It's also clear here that Wolf, if he kept FSmash or DSmash fresh, have a better time killing Falco than the contrary. Falco is also easier to catch than a Bair-loving Wolf. If Falco gets a Bair though, and follows by a ood edge-guard, it's finished for Wolf though.
60 - 40 Wolf.

Chaingrab : Let's say that Wolf can tech the Dair if he gets caught. Taht's still a nasty 60% here. And Falco can just jump and not Dair, so the Wolf falls, and then follow with Dair / Bair.
But it's pretty hard to get a grab for Falco. But in a Best Of 3, i'm sure Falco can get it once or twice, assuming that the two players are at the same level.

So i would say 55-45 Falco, or 60-40 Falco, because you can escape a grab all day long. Even if you can escape at low percentages, Falco can get you at 20% near a ledge, and you're in a really bad position. And Wolf being heavy, the DThrow have good follows-ups no matter the percentages.

ElPadrino · Dec 18, 2008

Well, the 50% of the chaingrab isn't that much of an advantage since we'll be getting 50% sooner or later.

As a matter of fact, if I'm not so good at teching that spike I'd spam blaster so it gets reflected in my face till I'm about 30%-35%, that way Falco can no longer chaingrab us.

Recovery wise, I'm afraid I'll have to say Falco has a worse recovery against characters with high priority projectiles (Wolf, ROB, Falco, etc.). all we have to do is spam blaster on the stage edge and if you try to Phanthasm you'll get hit by the laser, in which case you'll have to use Firbird and we'll easily gimp you with shine.

Or if you try to use Phanthasm above the stage we'll send you back out with a D-Smash/S-Smash.

Not to mention out Bair destroys your Aerial game.

Without chainspike I say it's 50:50 - 55:45 Falco at most.

And with chainspike we go back to 65:35 - 70:30 Falco

bowz · Dec 18, 2008

Blad you said that wolf was easier to gimp than falco off the edge. Well take a look at my video. It shows just how simple it really is for falco to get gimped by wolf. Sure, the match was bad for me overall, but it's still easy as hell to get gimped.

(btw, fast forward to about 2:15 or click my comment with the time to start there. And turn of the audio, lol. Some random song on the audio swap. XD)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFnnfGcSc3U

Blad01 · Dec 18, 2008

Well... You kept phantasming right next to him, and at the end you just ledgehopped > Phantasm against a character that has a projectile...

And yes, Falco's Up B is easy to gimp but that's not a scoop XD

Elpadrino > If Falco sees that Wolf is spamming blaster, he will just phantasm to the edge? And the lag from your laser will prevent you from edge hogging.

Mikey7 · Dec 18, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
Not from what I've played. If Wolf tries to laser, Falco's come out faster. If he uses Reflector, Falco can wait him out. If he approaches using reflector, then Wolf is approaching, not Falco.

A Wolf could theoretically just sit in the corner of the stage with reflector...then what can Falco do? Falco is the approacher. You just haven't played any campy Wolfs. Thats about all I can say in this match, I've played a couple Wolfs but I can't draw a conclusion on this matchup, sorry.

Mith_ · Dec 18, 2008

Mikey7 said:
A Wolf could theoretically just sit in the corner of the stage with reflector...then what can Falco do? Falco is the approacher. You just haven't played any campy Wolfs. Thats about all I can say in this match, I've played a couple Wolfs but I can't draw a conclusion on this matchup, sorry.

I'm gonna have to agree with Mikey. Wolf can just sit there with his reflector up for 7 minutes and not break a sweat.

Blad01 · Dec 18, 2008

Mithx said:
I'm gonna have to agree with Mikey. Wolf can just sit there with his reflector up for 7 minutes and not break a sweat.

WTF ? We could do the same with ours then... Even if it has more lag.
If we stay in the theory, Falco can also approach, dealing some damages, then just go at the other side and camp. So this Wolf's camping game advantage won't last forever...

Moreover, Falco is good at approaching, whre Wolf's defense game is not that great... Falco can approach with semi-safe move, that prevent shieldgrab by example.

Mikey7 · Dec 18, 2008

Wolf's bair is extremely safe.

However, my point was that for the first part of the match Falco must go over to Wolf. Falco can't sit back and spam reflector.

Mith_ · Dec 18, 2008

Blad01 said:
WTF ? We could do the same with ours then... Even if it has more lag.
If we stay in the theory, Falco can also approach, dealing some damages, then just go at the other side and camp. So this Wolf's camping game advantage won't last forever...

Moreover, Falco is good at approaching, whre Wolf's defense game is not that great... Falco can approach with semi-safe move, that prevent shieldgrab by example.

I was talking about the start of the match.

Why would Wolf approach when he doesn't have to. I mean, this won't always happen, but its possible. In a real fight they can approach, Wolf can zone with lasers and Wall of Wolf. Tose are two safe methods, way safer than his Smash and Tilt.

Denzi · Dec 18, 2008

Blad01 said:
Moreover, Falco is good at approaching, whre Wolf's defense game is not that great... Falco can approach with semi-safe move, that prevent shieldgrab by example.

But part of the reason Falco's so good at approaching is because of his lasers. I do agree with you though.

Ishiey · Dec 19, 2008

I think that it's 50:50 or 45:55 (wolf), if the wolf can tech the chainspike. Really, bair destroys falco, and edgeguarding? Falco is ridiculously easy to gimp IMO, at least moreso than wolf. Your lasers are one of your better tools (as usual) in this matchup, even though they can be reflected. Use your reflector for spacing a lot, I personally find it very annoying.

Even though the chainspike can be teched, as others brought up, there are a lot of other substitutes. DAC (personally the best), pillar, just chainspike anyways and hope you can edgeguard wolf after he techs, do nothing and let wolf fair to his doom and edgehog him (assuming wolf fairs before he grabs the ledge), all of these are good options. However, even with the 60% from this, wolf can make a comeback. Shine off the stage is literally an instant kill on falco, and bair outspaces and eats through pretty much everything you have, save lasers and reflector. Actually, if the wolf is patient/campy enough, bair laser and reflector should let them run away until they're at 40%, and then falco's in real trouble. Wolf also has better kill moves (more like move, but one is all we need) and far better aerial control, so past the CG, it's a very uphill battle for falco (against a good wolf).

~ Gheb ~ · Dec 20, 2008

You guys overrate gimps. It shouldn't be part of the match-up equation because 1.) gimps won't happen on a high level and 2.) both are about equally gimpable / capable to gimp the opponent.

Don't mention it in that match-up, it's not worth it. You should focus on the essentials.

bowz · Dec 20, 2008

Gimps are !00% important to the matchup. Gimps WILL happen in high level play.

It isn't hard for falco to be put into a bad situation where he has to up b to get to the stage.

Sesshomuronay · Dec 20, 2008

I would say that gimpwise falco is more gimpable than wolf.

Mith_ · Dec 20, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
I would say that gimpwise falco is more gimpable than wolf.

Most def.
Wolf's Phantasm has beastly priority.
So does Wolf Flash.

Denzi · Dec 20, 2008

Mithx said:
Wolf's Phantasm has beastly priority.
So does Wolf Flash.

lol

But yeah, Falco is without a doubt more gimpable than Wolf.

Mith_ · Dec 21, 2008

Denzi said:
lol

But yeah, Falco is without a doubt more gimpable than Wolf.

Sry I don't know the name of the moves

§witch · Dec 21, 2008

Mikey7 said:
Wolf's bair is extremely safe.

However, my point was that for the first part of the match Falco must go over to Wolf. Falco can't sit back and spam reflector.

Why not? Wolf chilling in his shine in no way forces an approach; nor does it make falco have to use his reflector.

8AngeL8 · Dec 22, 2008

If either player decides to go all out defensive, the other one will be forced to approach. Wolf's projectiles don't come out nearly fast enough to get through a completely campy Falco's reflector. There's no reason why Wolf can force an approach and Falco can't.

JCav · Dec 24, 2008

so wolf boards just changed it from 75:25 in falcos favor tto 55:45 falcos favor. it would be nice if a common groung could be reached here. also i would like to note that the g&w boards have that matchup 60:40 g&w favor

YUNq PHR3$H · Dec 30, 2008

chaingrab
- end -

pure_awesome · Dec 30, 2008

- restart -
tech the chaingrab.

I'm surprised how much emphasis got put on gimping in this thread, since Falco can easily recover through Wolf's lasers by holding towards the stage and mashing the B button like a six-year-old.

8AngeL8 · Dec 30, 2008

After some more thought, I've almost completely changed my mind on this match. Wolf's bair is almost impossible to punish, and you won't be getting a grab on a Bair spamming Wolf. It's quite difficult to get the CG against a properly spaced Wolf.

Wolf has the superior close game, hands down. Falco wins in the air, but not offstage. I think they go about even in camping.

Overall, I want to say this matchup is actually even because if Wolf makes an early mistake he's dead, and Falco can rack some damage in the air.

Hylian · Dec 31, 2008

It's actually really easy to punish wolfs bair with falco. I literally made a wolf main quit wolf because I 3 stocked him in tournament with falco when he could get my GW down to last stock lol. It's an increadibly easy match-up.

Mikey7 · Dec 31, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
After some more thought, I've almost completely changed my mind on this match. Wolf's bair is almost impossible to punish, and you won't be getting a grab on a Bair spamming Wolf. It's quite difficult to get the CG against a properly spaced Wolf.

Wolf has the superior close game, hands down. Falco wins in the air, but not offstage. I think they go about even in camping.

Overall, I want to say this matchup is actually even because if Wolf makes an early mistake he's dead, and Falco can rack some damage in the air.

Falco has a clear cut advantage. Smartness beats spam. Falco is better in every aspect.

To punish bair -> powersheild, drop sheild, walk forward a bit, ftilt.

Denzi · Dec 31, 2008

Hylian said:
It's actually really easy to punish wolfs bair with falco. I literally made a wolf main quit wolf because I 3 stocked him in tournament with falco when he could get my GW down to last stock lol. It's an increadibly easy match-up.

Hooray! Someone important telling the Wolf mains that they're wrong!

Maybe we can reach a definative answer now.

(it's definately not 55:45 Falco)

Match-Up Week #19 : Wolf

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