Lucas Frame Data (In-depth and Accurate)

I saw some frame data around the Lucas boards, but what I've seen has a lot of mistakes. This is accurate and much more in-depth.

Jab:
1st jab total: 19
1st jab hits on frame 2
1st jab shield hit lag: 6
1st jab shield stun: 7
1st jab advantage: -16
2nd jab hits as early as frame 10 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -6 (opponent has 6 frames between shield stun and 2nd jab hit box)
Two jabs total: 26 minimum (assuming fastest possible 2nd jab)
2nd jab shield hit lag: 6
2nd jab shield stun: 7
2nd jab advantage: -15
3rd jab hits as early as frame 20 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 3rd jab advantage: -8 (opponent has 8 frames between shield stun and 3rd jab hit box)
Three jabs total: 43 minimum (assuming fastest possible 2nd and 3rd jabs)
3rd jab shield hit lag: 6
3rd jab shield stun: 7
3rd jab advantage: -22

Dash Attack:
Total: 41
First hits on frame 17
Shield hit lag: 14
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -25

Dtilt:
Total: 13
First hits on frame 3
Shield hit lag: 2
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -3

Ftilt:
Total: 22
First hits on frame 6 – 7 at least
Shield hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 12
Advantage: -11

Utilt:
Total: 39
First hits on frame 4, 7
Shield hit lag (2nd hit box): 6
Shield stun (2nd hit box): 10
Advantage: -28

Dsmash:
Total: 63
1st hit box first hits on frame 20 – 21
1st hit box shield hit lag: 17
1st hit box shield stun: 17
1st hit box only advantage: -43
2nd hit box first hits on frame 29 – 30
Linking to 2nd hit box advantage: -8 (opponent has 8 frames between shield stun and 2nd hit box)
2nd hit box shield hit lag: 15
2nd hit box shield stun: 15
2nd hit box only advantage: -34
3rd hit box first hits on frame 39 – 40
Linking to 3rd hit box advantage: -9 (opponent has 9 frames between shield stun and 3rd hit box)
3rd hit box shield hit lag: 14
3rd hit box shield stun: 12
3rd hit box only advantage: -26

Fsmash:
Total: 46
First hits on frame 14
Shield hit lag: 11
Shield stun: 15
Advantage: -28

Usmash:
Total: 98
1st hit box first hits on frame 28
1st hit box shield hit lag: 4
1st hit box shield stun: 5
1st hit box only advantage: -69
2nd hit box first hits on frame 30 – 51 at least
Linking to 2nd hit box advantage: 0 (opponent has 0 frames between shield stun and 2nd hit box)
2nd hit box shield hit lag: 18
2nd hit box shield stun: 18
2nd hit box advantage: -68
Late part of 2nd hit box hits top platform of Battlefield on frame 48
Late hit box shield hit lag: 13
Late hit box shield stun: 13
Late hit box advantage: -50

Nair:
Total: 39
First hits on frame 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26
Landing lag: 18 (auto-cancels after frame 27 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag (last hit): 4
Shield stun (last hit): 7
Advantage (last hit): -15
Auto-cancel advantage: 0

Dair:
Total: 54
First hits on frame 4, 11, 19, 27
Landing lag: 28 (auto-cancels after frame 34 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag (last hit): 7
Shield stun (last hit): 7
Advantage (last hit): -28
Auto-cancel advantage: -9

Fair:
Total: 41
First hits on frame 9
Landing lag: 15 (auto-cancels after frame 31 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -9
Auto-cancel advantage: -18

Bair:
Total: 39
First hits on frame 15 – 18 at least
Landing lag: 15 (auto-cancels after frame 38 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 14
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -16
Auto-cancel advantage: -23 (assuming shield hit on frame 18)

Uair:
Total: 45
First hits on frame 5 – 7 at least
Landing lag: 12 (auto-cancels after frame 24 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -8
Auto-cancel advantage: -15 (assuming shield hit on frame 7)

Shortest Possible Neutral-B:
Total: 83
First hits on frame 51

Longest Possible Neutral-B:
Total: 123
First hits on frame 91

Side-B:
Total: 53
First hits on frame 21 – 38
Shield hit lag: 0
Shield stun: 7
Landing lag (Aerial Side-B): 23

Up-B:
First hits on frame 20
Out of shield: can hit on frame 20 if timed perfectly

Shortest Possible Down-B:
Total: 35
First absorbs energy on frame 10
First hits on frame 17
Shield hit lag: 11
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -18

Standing Grab:
Total: 69
First grabs on frame 13

Dash Grab:
Total: 79
First grabs on frame 16

Pivot Grab:
Total: 49
First grabs on frame 15

Jump airborne on frame 6
SH airborne for 32 frames
SH Fast Fall airborne for 23 frames

Spot Dodge:
Total: 25
Invincible frames 2 – 20

Roll Backward:
Total: 31
Invincible frames 4 – 19

Roll Forward:
Total: 31
Invincible frames 4 – 19

Air Dodge:
Total: 48
Invincible frames 4 – 29

If you have any questions, just ask. I'll do my best to respond quickly.

could you explain the terms that you used? like advantage and stuff
is it better to jab+jab cancel+dtilt than jab+jab+jab cancel+dtilt?
what was wrong with Levitas'?

prOAPC said:

could you explain the terms that you used? like advantage and stuff
is it better to jab+jab cancel+dtilt than jab+jab+jab cancel+dtilt?
what was wrong with Levitas'?

Click to expand...

Shield hit lag = the # of frames Lucas lags when he hits a shield
Shield stun = the # of frames a shielding opponent is in stun
Advantage = the # of frames Lucas can move before (positive number) or after (negative number - as is almost always the case in Brawl) a shielding opponent

Levitas' had a lot of problems with it...not sure where/how he got it, but mine is accurate.

Well, **** dude.

I should have announced the fact that I'm redoing my frame data in the near future as part of the smash lab stuff in a much more meticulous fashion.

I'll compare it against this, but it's gonna be more to verify than anything else.

This looks really complete and accurate, though.

I got mine through good methods, though admittedly it was cursory.

Edit: good methods means capture card + half speed + 30 fps capture + frame by frame.

Would you mind pointing out problems other than perhaps me miscounting long moves by a few frames?

Levitas said:

Edit: good methods means capture card + half speed + 30 fps capture + frame by frame.

Would you mind pointing out problems other than perhaps me miscounting long moves by a few frames?

Click to expand...

It's bad to use half-speed. The training mode gives bad (inconsistent and inaccurate) results with half-speed. You should use vs mode and capture with a lossless codec. Then "deinterlace" and count frames in Virtual Dub. If you check out hotgarbage's thread in the Videography section (I think), he has a good post about how to get data.

Just a few mistakes I saw were lengths of moves being off by up to 10 or 15 frames sometimes (I think Dsmash was the worst case I saw) and hit boxes being off by a few frames as well. For instance, I think you had Fair as hitting on frame 4, but it doesn't hit until frame 9.

All in all, your data wasn't terrible by any means, but a few frames can be very important.

I agree that a few frame can be important, and the new data that I'll be using will be with standardized methods. Scotu, sitting next to me now, apparently is aware that training mode gives bad data, so that'll change my method for the next time. I used Vdub last time.

Dsmash being off by that much is horrific. my apologies if that's the case.

This is awesome. Will sift through later and include it in the guide with your permission and credit of course 3GOD.

Tyr_03 said:

This is awesome. Will sift through later and include it in the guide with your permission and credit of course 3GOD.

Click to expand...

Feel free to use it in the guide.

Sorry to ask, but can you get the ending lag/frames of his aerials?
Or unless I'm not reading this right.....

3GOD said:

Shield hit lag = the # of frames Lucas lags when he hits a shield
Shield stun = the # of frames a shielding opponent is in stun
Advantage = the # of frames Lucas can move before (positive number) or after (negative number - as is almost always the case in Brawl) a shielding opponent

Click to expand...

Just a couple of questions to clarify because I'm ignorant and dumb:

Shield Hit Lag is how much longer the hit box lasts when hitting a shield (or presumably another body)?

For example, I know Jab hits on Frame 2, but with a shield hit lag of 6 does that mean it can hit for the duration of 2-8?

Could please explain advantage in a little more detail using examples. Sorry, the negative and positive numbers may make sense in your head but when I see "negative" I think before, etc. Or maybe you can explain this example:

Dtilt:
Total: 13
First hits on frame 3
Shield hit lag: 2
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -3

Click to expand...

Does this mean once I do one dtilt, the opponent is free to hit three frames before me? Or am I able to move three frames before him?

If you can answer these questions (or anyone) that'd be swell.

FireKirby7 said:

Sorry to ask, but can you get the ending lag/frames of his aerials?
Or unless I'm not reading this right.....

Click to expand...

It's there...for instance, Nair is a total of 39 frames with the last hit box coming out on frame 26...this leaves approximately 13 frames of cool down/ending lag. However, I generally don't care about this, so I didn't specifically list the numbers even though they are easy to compute.

Cheeri-Oats said:

Shield Hit Lag is how much longer the hit box lasts when hitting a shield (or presumably another body)?

For example, I know Jab hits on Frame 2, but with a shield hit lag of 6 does that mean it can hit for the duration of 2-8?

Click to expand...

Well, it's how many frames Lucas lags when he hits a shield...in the case of the Jab, Lucas is essentially "stuck" in frame 2 for 6 frames.

I'm not sure really if the hit box lingers those 6 frames or not (but the opponent shielded, so it's of little consequence in 1 vs 1 at least). I suspect that the hit box does linger during hit lag; so if you did connect with a shielding opponent and some other character ran into the attack during that hit lag, that other character would take damage (and possibly cause more hit lag???).

Cheeri-Oats said:

Does this mean once I do one dtilt, the opponent is free to hit three frames before me? Or am I able to move three frames before him?

If you can answer these questions (or anyone) that'd be swell.

Click to expand...

The opponent can move 3 frames before Lucas, but they are of course limited to certain options out of shield (Jump, Usmash, Up-B, Grab, Dodge, Roll). In this sense, it puts Lucas at a "negative advantage" of 3 frames.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

It does. Thank you very much.

Alright I have a few questions. First of all, are you considering autocancelling only at the end of aerials? Because Bair and Uair autocancel in early stages of their animations as well as on the end much like Marth's Nair etc.

Also, the landing lag on an in air PK Fire is different depending on how far from the ground it's used. If you finish the move close to the ground there should be fewer landing lag frames. I'm not sure from what height you did it from but there should be multiple numbers for this.

I don't think I'm understanding the advantage and autocancel advantage data for aerials. I thought that advantage would be were you to not autocancel and hit a shield, the opponent is able to do things out of the shield X frames before you can, assuming a negative number. And the autocancel advantage would be, if you autocancelled the move and hit a shield, the opponent is able to do things out of the shield X frames before you can, assuming a negative number. So I don't really understand how some aerials can have a more negative number when the move is autocancelled. Shouldn't that let you be able to initiate another move faster? Please explain because I'm clearly not understanding something.

Tyr_03 said:

Alright I have a few questions. First of all, are you considering autocancelling only at the end of aerials? Because Bair and Uair autocancel in early stages of their animations as well as on the end much like Marth's Nair etc.

Click to expand...

I don't know how Marth's Nair works (yet)...but I am only listing the auto-cancel at the end of the moves. I know for some moves such as Peach's Fair, the move can actually auto-cancel before the hit box comes out, but I figured such data is not really of interest to most people.

If Lucas's Bair and Uair can auto-cancel earlier, it's probably before the hit box appears, in which case it's useless. However, I'll try to check for some kind of earlier auto-cancel on these moves later.

Tyr_03 said:

Also, the landing lag on an in air PK Fire is different depending on how far from the ground it's used. If you finish the move close to the ground there should be fewer landing lag frames. I'm not sure from what height you did it from but there should be multiple numbers for this.

Click to expand...

I got the same number of frames regardless of the height I tested it from (assuming the move hadn't finished before Lucas hit the ground). I'll check it out once more to make sure.

Tyr_03 said:

I don't think I'm understanding the advantage and autocancel advantage data for aerials. I thought that advantage would be were you to not autocancel and hit a shield, the opponent is able to do things out of the shield X frames before you can, assuming a negative number. And the autocancel advantage would be, if you autocancelled the move and hit a shield, the opponent is able to do things out of the shield X frames before you can, assuming a negative number. So I don't really understand how some aerials can have a more negative number when the move is autocancelled. Shouldn't that let you be able to initiate another move faster? Please explain because I'm clearly not understanding something.

Click to expand...

The issue is that for normal "advantage" calculations, I assume that the hit box hits on the last possible frame before hitting the ground (giving the best case scenario). But for auto-cancel, you have to consider the frames between the hit box and the auto-cancel window. Let's consider Lucas's Fair for instance.

Fair:
Total: 41
First hits on frame 9
Landing lag: 15 (auto-cancels after frame 31 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -9
Auto-cancel advantage: -18

If we assume that the Fair hit box comes out on the frame before Lucas lands on the ground, then we have the following situation...

Lucas is in shield hit lag for 7 frames while the opponent is simultaneously in shield stun. The opponent still has 6 more frames of shield stun to deal with when Lucas begins to move again. The opponent undergoes these remaining 6 frames of shield stun while Lucas simultaneously undergoes landing lag (since the move isn't auto-canceled). After the opponent's shield stun has ended, Lucas will still have 9 frames of landing lag to deal with. This gives the "advantage" of -9.

The easy way to compute normal "advantage" is: Advantage = Shield stun - Shield hit lag - Landing lag

Now for auto-canceling...

In order to auto-cancel the move, Lucas must land AFTER frame 31 of the Fair animation. The Fair connects on frame 9, and Lucas gains 6 frames in the shield hit lag/shield stun trade off. That is, at the end of his shield hit lag, the opponent still has 6 frames of shield stun to deal with. These remaining shield stun frames make up frames 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 of Lucas's Fair animation.

The opponent can now do any out of shield option (Jump, Usmash, Dodge, Roll, Up-B), but Lucas must still undergo frames 16 through 31 before he can auto-cancel. Counting both 16 and 31 (since he must land AFTER frame 31) gives 16 frames. Add in 2 more frames of standard short hop lag gives a total of 18 frames during which the opponent can move before Lucas can move. This gives the "auto-cancel advantage" of -18.

However, in practice, it's probably better to go for the auto-canceled Fair because it allows you to do something much more effectively than non-auto-canceled Fair...SPACE! The advantage data does not in any way account for spacing. So even if your opponent can move 18 frames before you...it may not matter depending on the spacing of the move and the range/speed of your opponent.

3god:

Can you hit me up on aim real fast, s/n is steel2nd

Alright, I understand the advantage numbers better now. Thanks.

Some moves do autocancel at earlier points and the hitbox still comes out. Lucas's Bair and Uair are like this just like Marth's Nair. Marth's Nair has two hits as he swings the sword around him twice. The move autocancels at the end of the move, after the second swing. But it also autocancels after the first swing toward the beginning of the move, giving it two autocancel points during which the hitbox is out like many moves. Samus's Uair works much the same way as all her aerials autocancels while the hitbox is out rather than solely at the end. You can autocancel her Uair by landing basically as soon as it comes out as well as landing at the end. Peach's Fair also works the same way. It is a common misconception that the move naturally just has very little lag, when in fact there is a point which you can not autocancel the move making Peach fall on her face for a moment. This however, is a relatively small window and the move autocancels on both the early animation and the ending animation, making it a relatively lagless move.

For PK Fire, I'm talking about the height after the move completes. I didn't realize you were assuming the bolt hadn't come out. If the bolt comes out just before landing there should be less lag than if you short hop and immediately fire the bolt.

I really appreciate the information 3GOD. Not trying to give you extra work, just curious on a few things. Great job.

Tyr_03 said:

Alright, I understand the advantage numbers better now. Thanks.

Some moves do autocancel at earlier points and the hitbox still comes out. Lucas's Bair and Uair are like this just like Marth's Nair. Marth's Nair has two hits as he swings the sword around him twice. The move autocancels at the end of the move, after the second swing. But it also autocancels after the first swing toward the beginning of the move, giving it two autocancel points during which the hitbox is out like many moves.

Click to expand...

I still haven't checked out Marth's Nair, but I did just test Lucas's Bair and Uair again. For the Uair, I could find no auto-cancel window near the beginning of the move at all.

For the Bair, I did find an auto-cancel if you land before frame 9 (this could be extended a little bit closer to the hit box possibly...I didn't bother finding the exact frame), but any landing on frames 15 - 38 results in landing lag (and the hit box doesn't come out until frame 15).

Tyr_03 said:

Peach's Fair also works the same way. It is a common misconception that the move naturally just has very little lag, when in fact there is a point which you can not autocancel the move making Peach fall on her face for a moment. This however, is a relatively small window and the move autocancels on both the early animation and the ending animation, making it a relatively lagless move.

Click to expand...

Peach's Fair actually auto-cancels on frames 1 - 15, has a hit box on frames 16 - 19, and then auto-cancels on frames 20 - 54. It doesn't auto-cancel if you land during the hit box, though.

Tyr_03 said:

For PK Fire, I'm talking about the height after the move completes. I didn't realize you were assuming the bolt hadn't come out. If the bolt comes out just before landing there should be less lag than if you short hop and immediately fire the bolt.

Click to expand...

I just tested this again, using full jumps, short hops, different timings on PK fire, etc. In every case, if the PK fire animation had not completed, Lucas suffered 23 frames of landing lag...whether the PK fire was released just before landing or a the peak of a short hop.

I think it just appears to be less landing lag when released just before landing for this reason: the PK fire is traveling during the landing lag. So, one could possibly consider this as not being lag...the hit box of the PK fire is out while Lucas is lagging. In practice, this is certainly a little safer than releasing the PK fire early and then lagging after the hit box has vanished, but the lag Lucas suffers is always 23 frames (unless of course the entire animation has completed before landing).

Tyr_03 said:

I really appreciate the information 3GOD. Not trying to give you extra work, just curious on a few things. Great job.

Click to expand...

Thanks, it's nice to know that my work is appreciated.

so in turn. Lucas' pk fire is kinda like MK's tornado?
i know that his nado also have uhm.. wait lol
i think i'ts 20 or 30 frames of lag.
but... that includes falling as well. so if you fall for 19 or 29 frames you'll have 1 frame of lag.
i think. i was reading about it on the MK boards. man i'm always on everybody else's boards. anyway we should like... attempt to get this stickied or something.
unless tyr already put it in his guide.

Yes this should definitely be stickied
Im not sure wat frame data is all about
but it seems helpful...lol
I'll figure it out

After taking all the frames into acount....lucas can only combo out of auto cancle nair.....
Then to make sure you get another attack you must use a ground move or the other player has enough time to hit you or get away for sure.

with that, lucas mains have to use shff nair obviously.
instead of pk fire spam, i think that should change as the best way to attack if spacing is not an issue of course.

^^^
Not true. All the frame data means is that Nair is the only aerial that can hit a shield without getting punished by the opponent. Dair combos are still completely legitimate. However, unlike Nair, if Dair hits a shield you have 9 frames to be punished, which is why spacing must be taken into account. You must also consider that Nair's priority sucks so if the opponent attacks rather than shielding, your screwed whereas Dair can hit through many attacks because of its disjointed hitboxes.

3GOD
what's the FH frame data?
you only have SH listed, unless i'm missing something.

Short hop/full hop shouldn't matter. This is just the amount of time you spend actually in the attack animation, not the amount of time it takes to jump and attack or anything like that. Basically, it would be the same no matter what you do. And the only other data is landing lag, which is always on the ground. What you did before you landed wouldn't effect it. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your question..

Phelix08 said:

Short hop/full hop shouldn't matter. This is just the amount of time you spend actually in the attack animation, not the amount of time it takes to jump and attack or anything like that. Basically, it would be the same no matter what you do. And the only other data is landing lag, which is always on the ground. What you did before you landed wouldn't effect it. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your question..

Click to expand...

i understand frame data but i needed to know how long, or how many frames, his jump lasted. on the first page it syas his SH is 25 frames but he doesn't have his FH listed. i would guess 50 but i don't think tha'ts a good guess. falcos SH and FH are way different... i think?

the only reason i wanted to know his FH data is to know when to bair, to see if i could autocancel it into another move like nair, uair, and dair.

~Pink Fresh~ said:

i understand frame data but i needed to know how long, or how many frames, his jump lasted. on the first page it syas his SH is 25 frames but he doesn't have his FH listed. i would guess 50 but i don't think tha'ts a good guess. falcos SH and FH are way different... i think?

the only reason i wanted to know his FH data is to know when to bair, to see if i could autocancel it into another move like nair, uair, and dair.

Click to expand...

i need someone to answer PK's question, please