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Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #21: Lucas
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
Lobos
Smash Master
For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmyIF3oruJY < best lucas in MD/VA
Don't listen to scrubby commentating lol
Edit:
ok So Pros and Cons since people covered what I was gonna say
Pros for TL:
Items **** Lucas and can't be absorbed
Faster Speed
More priority
Better recovery
Easy to juggle lucas
Better Grab/tether
Cons for TL:
Moves with long lag can lead to certain death
Can die early from smash attacks
Can be combo'd
PK Thunder has more priority than TL's items
Slower smash attacks
Don't listen to scrubby commentating lol
Edit:
ok So Pros and Cons since people covered what I was gonna say
Pros for TL:
Items **** Lucas and can't be absorbed
Faster Speed
More priority
Better recovery
Easy to juggle lucas
Better Grab/tether
Cons for TL:
Moves with long lag can lead to certain death
Can die early from smash attacks
Can be combo'd
PK Thunder has more priority than TL's items
Slower smash attacks
In my experience before I even knew how to string bairs or use zair Lucas was a match in my favor. I think the big thing he has going for him is the potential to kill you pretty early. His up smash can destroy a toon link if it connects.
This is a match where the hero's shield comes in handy if he is a pk fire fiend. However, TL's big advantage in my experience has been his projectile game. There isn't much lucas can do. If he uses the stick to try and reflect there is the end lag that makes it almost a sure thing for one of your projectiles to hit. I almost never throw just one projectile. There are usually at least 3 coming his way and almost always one of them hits.
And while he has formidable aerial attacks, again, projectiles can easily dismantle that. If we are both making aerial approaches I usually have a bomb in hand or use an arrow to put him on the defensive and then move in for an attack.
If you can catch him off guard and hyphen smash him to get him into the air, Lucas is pretty easy to juggle. He is also easily gimped off stage with a spike when doing pk thunder for recovery.
In my experience it is like a 60-65% in TL's favor. I'm sure people have played better lucas' than me though.
This is a match where the hero's shield comes in handy if he is a pk fire fiend. However, TL's big advantage in my experience has been his projectile game. There isn't much lucas can do. If he uses the stick to try and reflect there is the end lag that makes it almost a sure thing for one of your projectiles to hit. I almost never throw just one projectile. There are usually at least 3 coming his way and almost always one of them hits.
And while he has formidable aerial attacks, again, projectiles can easily dismantle that. If we are both making aerial approaches I usually have a bomb in hand or use an arrow to put him on the defensive and then move in for an attack.
If you can catch him off guard and hyphen smash him to get him into the air, Lucas is pretty easy to juggle. He is also easily gimped off stage with a spike when doing pk thunder for recovery.
In my experience it is like a 60-65% in TL's favor. I'm sure people have played better lucas' than me though.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
From my experience, Lucas isnt tough to juggle since his aerials while good arent that quick and his dair has some start up lag. I dont know lucas' frame data but judging from what Ive seen his uair and fair look pretty fast. His nair is multi hit so u should avoid that and it autocancels allowing him to hit ur shield and follow up with something like jab or dtilt. I recommend shielding it all and then grabbing or nairing Oos. Be careful with getting predictable with grabs since they can use a whiffed grab to their advantage with a charged smash. Be careful of usmash always be weary if u are above him since he can mindgame u into one. If he whiffs an usmash u have a good time to punish with a slightly charged fsmash. His fsmash comes out really fast and kills, trust me it kills. He can use his upB to edgeguard. Never, ever tether recover against lucas. He can combo u when ur at 0% with dthrow to utilt just something to watch out for. Oh, and lucas can also full hop down air, fast fall into dtilt to fsmash and it combos another thing to watch out for.
Now for TL, zair works wonders as always. Just dont get predictable with it or they will read ur airdodge and rush into a PS grab. We`can beat his aerials with well spaced aerials of our own. Bair can sort of combo and can force an airdodge to another bair. So dont miss the opportunity to juggle with it whenever it is possible. Make HIM approach u have the advantage if he approaches. His pk fire is annoying but clever use of ur 3 proyectiles can force him to approach. Then when he approaches swat him away with nair or space with zair, if the zair hits remember to follow up with nair. Save usmash for the kill. Bombs and rangs while constantly moving and avoiding him is good in this matchup. Play gay, play to win....Most importantly, be TOON! 55:45 TL.
Now for TL, zair works wonders as always. Just dont get predictable with it or they will read ur airdodge and rush into a PS grab. We`can beat his aerials with well spaced aerials of our own. Bair can sort of combo and can force an airdodge to another bair. So dont miss the opportunity to juggle with it whenever it is possible. Make HIM approach u have the advantage if he approaches. His pk fire is annoying but clever use of ur 3 proyectiles can force him to approach. Then when he approaches swat him away with nair or space with zair, if the zair hits remember to follow up with nair. Save usmash for the kill. Bombs and rangs while constantly moving and avoiding him is good in this matchup. Play gay, play to win....Most importantly, be TOON! 55:45 TL.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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Lucas is hard for you guys because none of you know how to space.
*whips out a ruler* >=(
Honestly though, spacing is really important in this match up.
Recovery- Lucas can recover pretty well with the zap jump and tether stuff, so I'd say just use projectiles if your going to try to gimp him. Use Nair or something only if hes in the process of starting to use Up-B. If Lucas is close to the edge, grab on to it to prevent him from tethering.
Lucas primarily uses PK fire to space. Its unlike our Zair, where we have to get closer to use it. Lucas uses it to get farther away.
Approaching- Zair isn't as effective in this match up as other imo. If your spacing is even a little off, Lucas can manage to get a Ftilt in there on occasion. Always be approaching him. Lucas has really good approach options, that remind me of Wario in a way. Zair -> Nair is really good against Lucas if you space correctly. Lucas cap approach with Fair or Nair and they're pretty hard to punish. Just keep your shield up and get away.
Killing- All of Lucas's Smashes are REALLY strong. They come out pretty fast too, so whenever your at like ~70%, watch out for his smashes and stay away from punishable moves. Please, don't fall for a running Usmash by Lucas (its really obvious). Just hold your shield, and let the move finish completely before you punish. If you get hit by it, DI to the left or right. His Dsmash hits 3 times and can hit a little behind him. If you shield a hit, jump and punish him with an aerial. DI Up for this move. His Fsmash is really fast. DI Up for it. Kill Lucas with whatever you can manage to. Zair -> Hyphen smash should actually work pretty well usually. Gimp his recovery whenever you can.
I know Lucas can do something like Dthrow to Utilt, utilt if your at really low percentages, so don't get grabbed by him. His grab is pretty horrible anyway.
Overall, just space, space, space. Most important thing.
Oh, and beware of Lucas's Zair.
Luc Zair >>> any other Zair
*whips out a ruler* >=(
Honestly though, spacing is really important in this match up.
Recovery- Lucas can recover pretty well with the zap jump and tether stuff, so I'd say just use projectiles if your going to try to gimp him. Use Nair or something only if hes in the process of starting to use Up-B. If Lucas is close to the edge, grab on to it to prevent him from tethering.
Lucas primarily uses PK fire to space. Its unlike our Zair, where we have to get closer to use it. Lucas uses it to get farther away.
Approaching- Zair isn't as effective in this match up as other imo. If your spacing is even a little off, Lucas can manage to get a Ftilt in there on occasion. Always be approaching him. Lucas has really good approach options, that remind me of Wario in a way. Zair -> Nair is really good against Lucas if you space correctly. Lucas cap approach with Fair or Nair and they're pretty hard to punish. Just keep your shield up and get away.
Killing- All of Lucas's Smashes are REALLY strong. They come out pretty fast too, so whenever your at like ~70%, watch out for his smashes and stay away from punishable moves. Please, don't fall for a running Usmash by Lucas (its really obvious). Just hold your shield, and let the move finish completely before you punish. If you get hit by it, DI to the left or right. His Dsmash hits 3 times and can hit a little behind him. If you shield a hit, jump and punish him with an aerial. DI Up for this move. His Fsmash is really fast. DI Up for it. Kill Lucas with whatever you can manage to. Zair -> Hyphen smash should actually work pretty well usually. Gimp his recovery whenever you can.
I know Lucas can do something like Dthrow to Utilt, utilt if your at really low percentages, so don't get grabbed by him. His grab is pretty horrible anyway.
Overall, just space, space, space. Most important thing.
Oh, and beware of Lucas's Zair.
Luc Zair >>> any other Zair
...
You don't want me to be angry.
Also, it's because it's almost impossible to find a good Lucas player. They do exist however.
It latches onto stuff & talks to you about being more than just a side character.
If this hits you you MUST forfeit a stock.
Santi
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,931
*Enjoys videos*
Lobos
Smash Master
LOLWUT......might wanna check your percentages
iRjOn
Smash Lord
I say Toon Links advantage but not to big 60:40 sounds good.
Sasukes right Lucas's zair pwns lol
Remeber his fsmash reflects projectiles!
and bair spikes...
all I can think of atm...
Sasukes right Lucas's zair pwns lol
Remeber his fsmash reflects projectiles!
and bair spikes...
all I can think of atm...
TLMarth
Smash Ace
I love using powerful attacks randomly.
Like Lucas' Up smash.
IT ALWAYS WORKS.
Like Lucas' Up smash.
IT ALWAYS WORKS.
Shadow Moth
Up in the clouds
You can kill him pretty easily if you get him of the stage. His recovery takes forever to get him back to the stage and most of that time is spent floating down slowly in anticipation of his actual movement. Seriously. You have so much time to torture him in his recovery and can just keep hitting him 'till he's ripe for killing.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
I'll get'em
Noraa
Smash Lord
ALRIGHTYYYY any ways lol.
Im Noraa...Lucas main...the md/va lucas thats in okins **** shadow lol.
Any ways, to cut to the chase.....60-40 tl favor.
perjectiles are better.
moves are fast.
Zair =[
Can juggle us at low percentages.
BUT...
for lucas..the stick ownz
our smashes are strongz
better starting combos
recovery is a little better.
thats how i see it.
Im Noraa...Lucas main...the md/va lucas thats in okins **** shadow lol.
Any ways, to cut to the chase.....60-40 tl favor.
perjectiles are better.
moves are fast.
Zair =[
Can juggle us at low percentages.
BUT...
for lucas..the stick ownz
our smashes are strongz
better starting combos
recovery is a little better.
thats how i see it.
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
i'm ToxiCrow-i dont play lucas so much anymore(well enough to hold my own), but i still know alot about him and contribute to the threads whenever i can say something intelligent
I 2nd most of noraa's comment.
and while we cannot absorb ur projectiles, we can still reflect them.
our tilts might be a little faster then yours, but i hav to check. havent played brawl in awhile :/
your downsmash pwns and is better than ours.
finally, our zair is better than yours
EDIT: i didnt really say anything helpful here.
Lucas approaches with nair, dair, or PKF.
nair racks up damage rather quickly and the last hit has good knockback.
dair is probably his safest approach(either that or PKF). the last hit spike's.
PKF-you'll hear that alot in a fight with a good lucas. i havent used TL much in the past or ever played against one, but i think ur shield can stop it.
PKT gimps. if ur off the stage, PKT is coming.
and PKT2 can ko. i think Lucas' recovery might be better than TL.
UpSmash is extremely powerful, but easily punishable. Just watch out when ur percentages are around 70-80% because it will KO you
Overall: i think TL has a slight advantage over Lucas because of his speed. 60-40, maybe even 55-45.
represent
I 2nd most of noraa's comment.
and while we cannot absorb ur projectiles, we can still reflect them.
our tilts might be a little faster then yours, but i hav to check. havent played brawl in awhile :/
your downsmash pwns and is better than ours.
finally, our zair is better than yours
EDIT: i didnt really say anything helpful here.
Lucas approaches with nair, dair, or PKF.
nair racks up damage rather quickly and the last hit has good knockback.
dair is probably his safest approach(either that or PKF). the last hit spike's.
PKF-you'll hear that alot in a fight with a good lucas. i havent used TL much in the past or ever played against one, but i think ur shield can stop it.
PKT gimps. if ur off the stage, PKT is coming.
and PKT2 can ko. i think Lucas' recovery might be better than TL.
UpSmash is extremely powerful, but easily punishable. Just watch out when ur percentages are around 70-80% because it will KO you
Overall: i think TL has a slight advantage over Lucas because of his speed. 60-40, maybe even 55-45.
representiRjOn
Smash Lord
yea your ftilt is utilt isn'ti'm ToxiCrow-i dont play lucas so much anymore(well enough to hold my own), but i still know alot about him and contribute to the threads whenever i can say something intelligent
I 2nd most of noraa's comment.
and while we cannot absorb ur projectiles, we can still reflect them.
our tilts might be a little faster then yours, but i hav to check. havent played brawl in awhile :/
your downsmash pwns and is better than ours.
finally, our zair is better than yours
Not many Toon Links dtilt >.>
Except Sasuke he has unlocked its awsomeness.
The rest of us just fail at it
D:
Noraa
Smash Lord
hahahah
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
one thing i forgot to mention:
his jab is really fast. it's mainly used to get people out of his face.
it can also cancel into a downtilt
his jab is really fast. it's mainly used to get people out of his face.
it can also cancel into a downtilt
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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Do you mean Lucas's
ok.
Time out.
Set me straight:
Lucas's, Lucas'
!??!??
How does this stuff work? >=(
Anyway, Do you mean Lucas's PKT2 kills while your recovering or when you use it on stage? Cuz I think its fairly easy to DI out of.
ok.
Time out.
Set me straight:
Lucas's, Lucas'
!??!??
How does this stuff work? >=(
Anyway, Do you mean Lucas's PKT2 kills while your recovering or when you use it on stage? Cuz I think its fairly easy to DI out of.
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
Noraa
Smash Lord
no our zair doesnt work lol
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
sasuke-PKT2 can ko at the end of the distance it travels; be it the stage or during recovery. just giving the heads up.
during the middle of the move, it'll rack up damage but in the very begining and at the very end it has pretty good knockback and its capable of ko-ing
Shadow Moth
Up in the clouds
Which is more frequent in Lucas' metagame? Smashes or tilts?
prOAPC
Smash Lord
hi ^^ i'm APC, a proudly Lucas main =) and my third character is Toon Link, he used to be my second character, but he sucked, and i left him, but one day, i watched one of VietGeek videos, and i wanted to learn and play Toon Link again, i have like 5 post here in the Toon Link Board
ok, as for the match up, TL has a better projectil game than Lucas, bombs, arrows, and boomerang are too good, and Lucas has a hard time to approach. He can reflect the boomerang and the arrow, so watch out, but most of the time, a reflected arrow will hit your Hyrule shield. At close range, lucas wins with his jab combo, and his smashes kill TL at really low %. Lucas can gimp TL with PK Thunder. Lucas is not as easy to gimp as most people think, the best way to gimp him is using projectiles, waits for lucas to air dodge or make a mistake, then fair in the face
60-40, TL wins, my personal second worst match up (first Snake, third Peach)
PK Fire are used a lot, but your projectile game is better
ok, as for the match up, TL has a better projectil game than Lucas, bombs, arrows, and boomerang are too good, and Lucas has a hard time to approach. He can reflect the boomerang and the arrow, so watch out, but most of the time, a reflected arrow will hit your Hyrule shield. At close range, lucas wins with his jab combo, and his smashes kill TL at really low %. Lucas can gimp TL with PK Thunder. Lucas is not as easy to gimp as most people think, the best way to gimp him is using projectiles, waits for lucas to air dodge or make a mistake, then fair in the face
60-40, TL wins, my personal second worst match up (first Snake, third Peach)
tilts for rack up damage, spect a lot of smashes at +80%
PK Fire are used a lot, but your projectile game is better
Levitas
the moon
Everyone says and has always said lucas vs Tlink is 60:40 in Tlink's favor. This is true IMO.
1. Lucas has fast aerials. His lack of range and telegraphing dair make him easy to juggle, but he still has better aerial control/falling speed than marth. He's not super easy to juggle, but your disjoint moves help a lot.
2. Usmash doesn't hit you unless you did something major wrong. don't take huge risks, there's not much more to it.
1. Lucas has fast aerials. His lack of range and telegraphing dair make him easy to juggle, but he still has better aerial control/falling speed than marth. He's not super easy to juggle, but your disjoint moves help a lot.
2. Usmash doesn't hit you unless you did something major wrong. don't take huge risks, there's not much more to it.
Bombs are your friend. We can't deal with them directly, and you can then follow up w/ another projectile. A good idea is to bait a PKF, and then throw a bomb from the air while we're lagging. At this point, the lucas can either run away, or jump. So you throw a boomerang upwards. Bam. Lucas must retreat, or deal with dodging the boomerang twice AND you. You have just zoned lucas.
Listen to people who say zap jump, because you've never seen one before. Lucas has a recovery that's clearly better than 3/4 of the cast, very much including you. His up-b is the longest directional recovery in the game. His zap jump is quite high, and can be wavebounced. He can do a wavebounced zap jump into a magnet pull (increases momentum w/ psi magnet) to get from FD's edge to 3/4 of the distance of FD w/o using any further recovery options. He has a DJ almost as high and fast as yours, but his DJ recovery is better because of his longer rope snake. Yes, it is longer by a decent margin.
You'll see aerials most, tilts are tricky with lucas. They each have a specific purpose, but they're inconsistent with what most people would expect. Dtilt is a combo move. Ftilt spaces vs some characters, or can finish nair strings.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
Wha? I'm sorry but the main reason that this matchup is in TL's favor is because his projectiles FORCE Lucas to approach, and I'm sorry but Lucas options for approaching are complete balls
Yes neutral air is pretty hard to punish, but forward air is probably the easiest one to punish.....um hold on.....I think its called....um...sheeld grabb? shield grab? ya that's it, shield grab
Lucas z air is the king of mind games...beware the fake plush snake XD
This match-up is one of my ABSOLUTE FAVORITES!!! *cue sarcasm*
The projectiles create a wall and reflecting any of them is pretty useless as there is most likely another comming your way. Although forward smashing the boomerange as it is returning to TL can be quite hilarious ^_^ In my oppinion pk fire is probably lucas' favorite attack in this matchup seeing as how it allows him to disrupt TL's wall of projectiles and run in for an approach.
I'd put more info but I gotta go.
And as for a ratio I'd put it at 35-65 or 40-60 toon link's favor
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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TL can't do anything if you pressure his shield from diagonally above, which is where Lucas hits.
Have you seen Toon Link's grab? =3Yes neutral air is pretty hard to punish, but forward air is probably the easiest one to punish.....um hold on.....I think its called....um...sheeld grabb? shield grab? ya that's it, shield grab
prOAPC
Smash Lord
sorry Sasuke, but Chaos is right :S
fair is not a good option for Lucas to approach, specially angaist a grounded opponent
TL's grab is not really good, but an usmash or a upB out of shield, can easily punish a fair
good Lucas approaches with Dair (best approach vs TL) and Nair
fair is not a good option for Lucas to approach, specially angaist a grounded opponent
TL's grab is not really good, but an usmash or a upB out of shield, can easily punish a fair
good Lucas approaches with Dair (best approach vs TL) and Nair
lil cj
Smash Lord
I love this match up
Its somewhat difficult for a good Lucas to beat a good Toon Link
Its all about how the Lucas player spaces and approaches.
Like the others said Nair and Dair r Lucas' best approaches...Nair has low priority but can easy follow up with a ftilt and utilt
Dair has ALOT of priority.
Lucas can even approach with a SH air dodge...and if an opportunity opens up he can attack....but if not Lucas can easily retreat.
Another approach Lucas can use(mostly for mind games) is uair.
And that can string into several uairs b/c of its low knock back
Fair isnt a good approach at all....but it can be used as an edge guard though...along with uair/PK Freeze/PKT/dair/bair
Lucas is great at edge gaurding btw
Its somewhat difficult for a good Lucas to beat a good Toon Link
Its all about how the Lucas player spaces and approaches.
Like the others said Nair and Dair r Lucas' best approaches...Nair has low priority but can easy follow up with a ftilt and utilt
Dair has ALOT of priority.
Lucas can even approach with a SH air dodge...and if an opportunity opens up he can attack....but if not Lucas can easily retreat.
Another approach Lucas can use(mostly for mind games) is uair.
And that can string into several uairs b/c of its low knock back
Fair isnt a good approach at all....but it can be used as an edge guard though...along with uair/PK Freeze/PKT/dair/bair
Lucas is great at edge gaurding btw
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
true.Fair isnt a good approach at all....but it can be used as an edge guard though...along with uair/PK Freeze/PKT/dair/bair
f-air can also be used against boomerang. f-air makes it dissappear, if u dont want to dodge/reflect it
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
dont 4get: good lucas' approach with zair too. it's just as strong as luigi's up-b is u sweetspot it
Shadow Moth
Up in the clouds
The zair joke was funny the first time and maybe even the second, but it is really getting old.
Now the TL zair joke... It never gets old.
Don't argue, or I'll zair you.
Now the TL zair joke... It never gets old.
Don't argue, or I'll zair you.
ehhh, havent really met any good Lucases yet. I mean the best I got is Redson who doesnt even main lucas and a freshamn at my school who has gotten a little bit better and gives me minor problems but still has no skill playing at all and still is a no ranked player.(run on -10) I really dont know how to play against Mother characters cuz i have no exepience against them, only the online fgts that spam PK love and thunder and hve no real skill. But I still give the favor or 6:4 in TL's favor.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Lighten up Moth
Uh-oh Sasuke...
:O
Uh-oh Sasuke...
:O