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Official G&W Stage Discussion #12: Pirate Ship
- Thread starter K 2
- Start date
I found water stalling to be completely broken here so this stage seemed like a 20/10 best Mr. Game & Watch stage ever ban-worthy stage to me. I'm curious about the tactics that would negate that; I know Hylian has claimed that it's easy to overcome water stalling.
There are some other things about this stage that I could bring up, but the water issue, how play in the water actually plays out, and what it means for Mr. Game & Watch are really the first problems to worry about here. I don't have much of an answer, but I've been really concerned about it for quite a while.
There are some other things about this stage that I could bring up, but the water issue, how play in the water actually plays out, and what it means for Mr. Game & Watch are really the first problems to worry about here. I don't have much of an answer, but I've been really concerned about it for quite a while.
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
I like the ability to spike in the water. Other than that...the match is meh to me. I would not want to play a marth here. The stage layout hurts g&w more than it helps imo. The map has neutralish horizontal and vertical blast zones. The stage helps some characters like olimar recover. Overall I'd give it a 4/10.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Is there anything wrong, from a tournament-legal standpoint, with using the key to get under the rock? I guess you can't be hurt and all, but you aren't in there for long.
Biggest issue is not being able to get hurt. However, if you can still drown while under the rock then it should be allowed since the person doing so is making a trade off; remaining safe from the opponent for a short time while running the risk of drowning. I could easily see that being fine.
Pirate Ship is an ok Stage for G&W, but why waste ur CP on this stage? RC, Corneria, Green Greens (if it is allowed), and even BF are overall better than this.
4/10.
It should be noted that Ike is amazing on this stage.
I don't see anything on this stage hurting G&W, but the water helps many characters with good spikes/ban recoveries.
This is definitely not one of your counterpicks, but is it ban worthy (rating of 1-3)? According to the thread, "Counterpicking Made Easy," this is one of G&W's worst stages.
I don't see anything on this stage hurting G&W, but the water helps many characters with good spikes/ban recoveries.
This is definitely not one of your counterpicks, but is it ban worthy (rating of 1-3)? According to the thread, "Counterpicking Made Easy," this is one of G&W's worst stages.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Yea, the Counterpicking made easy thread is kinda.. wrong.
Can't blame them though, I mean GaW's attributes, besides the small weight, are all universal. They work as well anywhere as they do anywhere else.
Which is why these threads are cool, but you have to keep in mind that screwing the opponent over is first priority =].
Can't blame them though, I mean GaW's attributes, besides the small weight, are all universal. They work as well anywhere as they do anywhere else.
Which is why these threads are cool, but you have to keep in mind that screwing the opponent over is first priority =].
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
A stage is considered good for a certain character due to the influence of the stage over that character's worst matchups. Take g&w vs marth/snake/ike. On paper, these characters can hurt you just as much if not more than you can hurt them on corneria. Due to g&w being able to kill at very low %'s. I believe we should be looking at stages that hurt the opponent moreso than they hurt us. Delfino plaza and JungleJapes come to mind in addition to corneria. Delfino a strong pick against characters with weak recoveries...and jungle japes against characters that have unreliable KO options.
I would counterpick this stage before any other stage. I would jump into the water in front of the ship at the start and stay in there as long as possible; Mr. Game & Watch is probably the best character in the game in the water. A lot of characters (such as Falco) seem pretty much unable to answer him just playing in the water all day, and drowning isn't really a risk at all. The only reason I'd say the rock gimmick should be tournament legal is that it's temporary and is just like playing campily to stall out forms of Pokemon Stadium, but I suppose I should also note that I have managed to knock a Meta Knight under the rock by down smashing them on the rock just as it's appearing and a lot of characters can use their own plunging down aerials to join you down there (if they dare).
Let me be clear. I can see how the Pirate Ship would be a little tricky for Mr. Game & Watch to fight on. However, I don't see how the Great Sea is anything but amazing for him if not broken completely. The stage is just in the way; all that is worth paying attention to is the water (though the bow of the ship is a really useful hazard!).
Anyway, as an aside, there's basically no reason to ever counterpick Delfino unless your opponent is dumb enough to join you in the water there; the Halberd does the same things but better really (and you can probably do better than the Halberd unless your list is super conservative).
Let me be clear. I can see how the Pirate Ship would be a little tricky for Mr. Game & Watch to fight on. However, I don't see how the Great Sea is anything but amazing for him if not broken completely. The stage is just in the way; all that is worth paying attention to is the water (though the bow of the ship is a really useful hazard!).
Anyway, as an aside, there's basically no reason to ever counterpick Delfino unless your opponent is dumb enough to join you in the water there; the Halberd does the same things but better really (and you can probably do better than the Halberd unless your list is super conservative).
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
^^ you do realize that playing like this is super lame tho right? Does not under any circumstance test player skill.
Corneria, Junglejapes and green greens ftw.
Corneria, Junglejapes and green greens ftw.
I play to win.
pockyD
Smash Legend
it's up to the TO to ban imbalanced stages
it's up to the player to take advantage of them
it's up to the player to take advantage of them
Delfino is better vs Falco then Halberd is. It's also better vs Olimar and IC's. And several other characters so I don't really know where you're getting that from...
Pirate ship has a perfect layout for a vertical game with GW. Up-B all day here; the platforms compliment you very well. This is a great stage to take Snake/MK to as they can't be as mobile as you here. The fact that you can up-b away and have a platform to cancel out and never have to fear being punished helps GW a ton. He doesn't take as much damage and lives much longer then usual.
The hazards also create oppertunities for kill moves which can be hard to land in certain match-ups(Marth/Snake). Don't take an Ike player here though..just trust me on that lol.
I would say 8/10. GW can play a great hit an run game while chipping on damage to his opponents rather safetly. The ledges are good to plank on, the water is benificial in some match-ups, the hazards create oppertunites and are easily avoidable with GW's chute.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
but tahts super lame hylan.
Haha. It doesn't make it any worse.
Also, I don't plank. At the most I will hang on the ledge until my opponents invincibility runs out. I have no problem with planking I'm just too impatient and don't like the fact that I can't really fake out my opponent on the edge >_>.
cutter
Smash Champion
Planking is great with GW... just don't go overboard with it (LOL a pun)
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Was kidding =\
I know I never post on here, but I really have to agree with Hylian, I think this is a pretty good GW stage, especially if they've banned Rainbow Cruise already.
You can Nair through the ship's platforms (also, d-throw into d-smash on these is great if you can catch your opponent on one), key-spike in the water, get back on the ship without even worrying about the ledge (I think...I'm pretty sure you can just jump/up B through the ship), plank on the edge and stall in the water if you want to, and avoid most projectile spammers fairly easily. The weird tilting of the ship, the even weirder stage transformations (boat hitting the rock, boat flying in the air), and the stage hazards all limit the projectile spam.
While the water will help your opponent recover (especially those with tether recoveries, who you won't be able to edgehog), it's not a big enough issue to detract too much from this level. The main example that comes to mind is Olimar. Since the level limits his projectile spam, his newfound ability to "recover" in the water simply makes the place neutral - there is still nothing that will hurt you. Additionally, when he does hit the water, all his pikmin (minus the blues) will die. He's a poor swimmer as well, and you might be able to get a key in thanks to his low mobility.
Overall I'd say this stage is not one you should be counterpicking that often, but against certain opponents - especially those with projectiles you can't absorb - this stage is gold. It's a good stage to choose if your opponent bans Rainbow Cruise, or if your opponent isn't used to playing on it. I would definitely CP this against Snake, Olimar, Toon Link, Meta, and possibly Diddy if you're feeling brave. I give it a 7/10, it's a good surprise pick.
You can Nair through the ship's platforms (also, d-throw into d-smash on these is great if you can catch your opponent on one), key-spike in the water, get back on the ship without even worrying about the ledge (I think...I'm pretty sure you can just jump/up B through the ship), plank on the edge and stall in the water if you want to, and avoid most projectile spammers fairly easily. The weird tilting of the ship, the even weirder stage transformations (boat hitting the rock, boat flying in the air), and the stage hazards all limit the projectile spam.
While the water will help your opponent recover (especially those with tether recoveries, who you won't be able to edgehog), it's not a big enough issue to detract too much from this level. The main example that comes to mind is Olimar. Since the level limits his projectile spam, his newfound ability to "recover" in the water simply makes the place neutral - there is still nothing that will hurt you. Additionally, when he does hit the water, all his pikmin (minus the blues) will die. He's a poor swimmer as well, and you might be able to get a key in thanks to his low mobility.
Overall I'd say this stage is not one you should be counterpicking that often, but against certain opponents - especially those with projectiles you can't absorb - this stage is gold. It's a good stage to choose if your opponent bans Rainbow Cruise, or if your opponent isn't used to playing on it. I would definitely CP this against Snake, Olimar, Toon Link, Meta, and possibly Diddy if you're feeling brave. I give it a 7/10, it's a good surprise pick.