A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

Flayl said:

Excellent job Limit, I just have a few things I'd like to comment. First thing is that Bowsers shouldn't be afraid of people who randomly pick up Dedede to try and get an easy win if they don't know Bowser, because aerial klaw will pretty much destroy them. It's the Dedede mains/secondaries you have to look out for. I'm bringing this up because it's not a "pick Dedede and you win" scenario.

Dedede's chaingrab doesn't stop at the ledge. He can standing chaingrab Bowser on any ledge or immobile platform.

Dedede can't really camp with Waddle Dee toss. It's not fast enough and it's really easy to avoid/shield. The most common situations where you can hit by it are if you're recovering or you make a predictable klaw hopped aerial. It gives Dedede something to do but hasn't really affected the matchup the times I've played it.

As someone who also plays Dedede, you really shouldn't be getting hit by UTilt when klaw-hopping, that sounds like poor horizontal spacing. BAir and retreating FAirs are the real threat.

You didn't write anything about firebreath, it's actually somewhat useful. If you're at the ledge of the stage, (with your back to the ledge) the worst thing Dedede can do to you is smash DI into you and BAir/NAir. Because of Dedede's very poor aerial mobility, Bowser can run before Dedede jumps over the fire. Just be careful not to use it in a way that can get you hit by a gordo toss.

Dedede's swallow doesn't really come up much in this matchup because Bowser wants to avoid shielding near Dedede as much as possible, but I still suggest practicing rolling to the other side of Dedede and grabbing him when he attempts to wavebounce his Neutral B.

I would add Castle Siege to the stages I'd consider banning, specially over Delfino. On Delfino it's easier to camp out the bad transformations and the platforms during the transitional parts help out with klaw hopping. Halberd is pretty bad too. Not as bad as Delfino but IMO still worse than Pictochat.

If infinites are legal I would rather play on Brinstar than Battlefield, because of the ledge/platform infinite. If they're banned, go to whichever you feel more comfortable in.

Anything I didn't mention I agree with.

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META KNIGHT​

Limit- said:

You had the ratio stuff up there already, so I didn't bother to do it myself.
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K, Meta Knight.

Ugh, Meta Knight. Where to begin:

Basically, just abandon all preconceived notions about the Bowser-MK MU. It's not 45-55, or 40-60. Bowser's at a large disadvantage, 35-65, period. When I mention MK, I'm talking about the competent MKs, the ones that know how to **** Bowser over and don't recklessly attack my shield, and go offstage and read my DI and gimp me. Yeah.

But yes, it's a very difficult MU. One of the most important MUs to learn for Bowser, and certainly one of the more common matchups you'll probably face in your bracket.

At a general look into MK, he doesn't have any projectiles, so if you have a small lead, maintain it, and don't approach for God's sake. You'll be ruining all the work you put in to even damage the mother****er. Trust me, it's hard to get inside a MK that shuttle loops all of your klaws and doesn't give you any breathing room. Metaknight's also a light character, with below average air speed outside of his gliding. He has 5/6 jumps (can't remember), and has quick, hard hitting aerials that are bound to put you in a terrible position. The infamous Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop are at his disposal, and I'd fear both as Bowser, especially the MT, only because Bowser's a large guy and it's difficult to get out of once you've been hit. However, if you look at Bowser, it seems as though he wouldn't exactly have a problem facing up against an MK right? Grab releases into NASTY killer moves, an aerial grab, and one of the best OoS options in the game, right? And MK has no projectile, so you can just wait it out, right? If that were the case I'd be crying tears of joy right now, because it's not.

I'd honestly recommend a very defensive approach to this matchup, you'll be playing with a very keen and patient eye. Don't rush anything, and expect everything. MK has more than enough tools to turn a match around, and it may seem like complete bull****, but he exists. I think you can expect all of MK's moves to be used on you, with the exception of Jab, UpSmash, Drill Rush and Dimensional Cape.

And now that I've mentioned it, I guess I should break down all of said moves that you should expect. Starting with his ground game, you should only expect F/DTilt, and F/Dsmash to be used on you. And grabs of course. Honestly, I think MK will probably spend most of his time on the ground merely poking you with tilts at low %s and then just gearing up for the kill with Smashes/NAir if anything.

So...FTilt, you can basically call that his jab, because his actual jab is garbage. This "jab" hits 3 times, and the MK can vary the speed of the slashes. It has quite a bit of range, and is pretty good at poking/prodding at your shield and keeping you away from him. Basically stops the majority of the possible grounded approaches you could have. Although, if the MK does happen to use the 3rd hit, the lag on the end is enough for you to go in and hit with a jab/ftilt if you're close enough. I wouldn't recommend dash grabbing, but go for it if you must.

DTilt does the same thing, comes out fast, but this has even less lag than FTilt3, same uses though. Poking your shield, and at low percents it causes tripping, which can lead to a multitude of things depending on the MK's creativity. The most common followup is a grab, so just watch out for that if you recover quickly. The good thing about these tilts is that if you happen to powershield them, you can actually do something. If not, you're kinda out of luck because he recovers from his lag a bit quicker than we can get to him/attack him. I'd just go for a jab in any instance.

His grab is meh, the range is fine, and his dash grab is ridiculous range wise, but laughably lagged up at the end. If an MK whiffs a dash grab, you'd better punish with your own grab or something, because it'll be worth your while. MK's best/most common throw is probably DThrow, it sets up for a lot of things. The best way to DI DThrow is down and away because it allows you to tech out/get further away from the MK to give you breathing room. You can always DI up, but I wouldn't recommend it because Nado can follow up, and Bowser's Bowser. You know how that goes. Depending on how close you are to the ledge/your positioning though, MK may B/Fthrow you instead. At high %s you should expect a UThrow, but that won't be killing you anytime soon, right? (I'm serious, you're a heavy guy, don't sweat it)

So yeah, his ground game is kinda linear since he only has like, 2 good moves. His Smashes are a different story though. FSmash has pretty deceptive range, and his DSmash comes out alarmingly quick. It can be used as a kill move, or a "get out of my face" move as well. I THINK the backside of dsmash is stronger, lol. Anyway, I think you'll have a hard time trying to punish either one of those smashes when they're not powershielded. Your best bet at dealing with DSmash is with SHKlaw. If you happen to spotdodge a DSmash, you can grab MK before he can do anything else. Personally for me (as a sorta-MK player too) FSmash is more difficult to deal with...it rips through airdodges, kills, has range, baits, all of the works. Just be careful throwing out FTilts against a grounded MK, because he can throw out an F/Dsmash at your hand and...yeah.

If you ever find yourself in the air against a Meta Knight, and you didn't put yourself up there, that's the problem in the MU. When you're in the air, MK has multiple options to keep you juggled. To name all of them quickly, UAir and Nado are big ones. Nado below Bowser is a very big problem in this MU. If the MK feels like being a **** he can just abuse nado when you're in the air until you figure out a way to get past it. In the air, only hitting MK at the top of the tornado will beat it out, or klaws from the side, but I've yet to klaw a nado when I'm above it. You can try your luck with fire, but that's not really advisable. MK can use UAir to bait airdodges, and just continue it.

I make it seem bad, but it actually is. Try to stay on the ground as much as you can. Although MK has a more...limiting ground game than us, it's easier to handle him when we're grounded. Remember our OoS options.

This is where my advice from before pays off: Be sure to KNOW what moves to use in EVERY situation. If an MK spaces a nado badly and ends up a distance from you, you WANT to punish that, because the player can make it easy for you to land hits on him, or make it hell.

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[in progress, saving pieces, 12/31/10]

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Flayl said:

Apparently MKs in Canada like to camp a lot, both KingKong and Phiddlesticks said they'd prefer picking PS1 or Yoshi's Island respectively over Smashville so MK can't scrooge or camp the moving platform. PS1 seems like a bad idea to me because of the ledges and the fire/rock transformations but it's working for KingKong so check it out.

Neither have found a use for firebreath. There have been suggestions in the thread to try running away and B-reversing / wavebouncing it to tickle an approaching MK.

When MK is waiting for you to approach both agree that it's best to stick to the ground. KingKong also suggests stopping DAir camping MK by FAir'ing him in between swipes. Be sure to Jab/shield counterattacks as appropriate.

Both agree that MKs favor Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise against them. If you ban one, expect the other. If your region doesn't have Rainbow Cruise legal and you ban Brinstar, you can expect to be taken to Lylat Cruise?



KingKong went into great detail about the MU, I'm putting it here in quotation marks instead of a quote so i'ts easier to read:

"After 80%, we should not use UpB Oos unless we dont have the choice. UpB fresh kills mk at around 120% and its our best way to kill him

Another good kill options will be Utilt. Last tournament I went whenever mk was gliding to me for a glide attack or glide cancel UpB, I was able to touch him with utilt before he was able to attack me. Im still unsure about it if it really works but the mks I faced was able to space well and I was able to get them anyway.

Stop airdodging!!! MK completly **** us each time we do an airdodge by nado or nair. Waiting until the last second to do an attack before landing or just UpB as soon we touch the ground his our best options. if the mk spam nado when you try to land, falling nair will beat it, you can also do a short footstool. if the mk spaces the nado and you cannot nair it, use fair instead cuz fair beats nado if we attack him by above. Thanks for the hitbox that goes slightly under bowser.

Playing gay is a must in this match up (however he should be in any MU). If you have the lead dont approach. Let him go to you. If he tries to approach you with nado, punish with klaw or angled ftilt. I know its hard but still possible. If you are not able to just shield and wait. If he mispaces it, punish with Upb or sideb at the end of the nado if he lands near you. If he just goes away dont follow him. Most of the time he will try to nado **** you due to your shield beeing low. Thats why I always go to the ledge to get my shield back. If he approaches you whit short hop fair, Im almost sure you can punish with shield drop dash attack. If he dair camps, just let him do it lol.

I know we can SDI his fair to fair him back but its hard.
Ftilt is SDIable too. Its just needs pratice."



The only thing I have to add is DI up when you expect to be hit, with exception for when you're hitting MK's shield. In that case you want to DI away.

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YOSHI​

Ixisnaugus said:

I'll have the writeup done sometime this week hopefully. Sorry for the wait guys.

EDIT: Alright well I've finished my writeup on the Yoshi matchup from my experience. It's fairly long but you can skip down to the final paragraph where I've nut-shelled the entire matchup. Please tell me what you think, speak up if you have any questions or problems with my writeup and correct any mistakes I've made or if you want me to change the layout or something. Hope you guys like it.

Bowser vs. Yoshi. An Ixis opinion.

Some things to note before I begin:

- Yoshi has the fastest air speed in the game.
- Yoshi will not be KO’d by the usual moves until upwards of 140%.
- Yoshi has an air release Chaingrab on Bowser to the end of the stage which can result in a Fair or Dair spike.
- Bowser CANNOT Chaingrab Yoshi-ground or air release- nor follow up any throws.
- Yoshi’s Pivot Grab is not to be underestimated.

Right well, where do I begin? This is actually a pretty weird matchup, but it’s also one of my most enjoyable. First of all, there are two kinds of Yoshi players I find: There are angry Yoshi’s, those who often rush into the match without thinking like an angry old man wielding a crutch, and there are more cautious, safe Yoshi’s who look to abuse their mid-long range weapons and strengths. The former are bad players who don’t know what they’re doing, the latter is where things get tricky. Bowser’s have nothing to fear from aggressive Yoshi players, why you ask? Fortress OoS is just one of multiple reasons.

Bad Yoshi’s who are unfamiliar with this matchup will see a massive target and they will lunge like an Owl on a mouse, and at first you may be overwhelmed by the onslaught of poorly spaced Bair’s, surprise dash attacks, Ftilt’s and maybe a silly Dair or two, but once you catch on, the tides quickly turn. Bair is one of Yoshi’s best moves, it’s a quick multi-hitter that can be auto-canceled when short hopped; fortunately it can be shield-fortressed and eventually the Yoshi will come to realize that it is not the saving grace they may have expected it to be at first. Fortress OoS is not our only answer though, Flame breath (preferably spaced) and up angled Ftilt also do the job just fine against it, and aggressive Yoshi’s will quickly have to switch tactics in order to get in, something Bad Yoshi’s will not be able to do as they know no other tactics. This is why I say we have no problems against aggressive Yoshi players, once we clock on to their cheap tactics they will pose little threat as all of Yoshi’s approaches can be answered with shield-Fortress, tilts, Flame Breath and Pivot grabs.

Aggressively is not how Yoshi’s should approach this matchup. Enter the cautious Yoshi player, one who has most likely read auroreon’s post on page 5 of the Yoshi v Bowser thread in the Yoshi boards and is aware of Bowser’s strengths and how to counter them. Yoshi’s should be playing this particular matchup patiently and try to lure Bowser into their pivot/grab or Egg Lay (referred to as EL from this point onwards) setups. There is a perfectly good reason for this, Yoshi cannot beat Bowser on the ground, we outrange them, out-prioritize, we even outspeed them (Jab ftw); so, in what particular area’s does a Yoshi trample us Koopa's? Why in the air of course, and also offstage.

It’s difficult for Yoshi to approach Bowser safely, so what better alternative is there then to bring us to them, and they have the perfect tool to do this, Eggs. The Egg Toss (ET), while not exactly a laser, gets the job done in this matchup. Because of its trajectory, Yoshi’s ability to control it, and Bowser’s gargantuan size, the move is borderline impossible to avoid, what are your options here. You could either spotdodge the move, Powershield it, neutralize (clank) it with a well timed, angled Ftilt… or Flame Breath it. As for the best option, that all depends on the distance between you and the camping dino, but you’ll find that turning to Powershield is the quickest, most reliable option. Not confident in your powershielding abilities? Well you’d better learn it now or you’re in for a world of hurt; you can spotdodge, but this is only good if there is a lot of distance between you and Yoshi, otherwise the animation will be punished by another ET or a dashgrab, and trust me you don’t want the latter coming your way.

ET is the perfect way for Yoshi’s to draw Bowser’s into coming close, after all, there’s nothing else we can do. They don’t want you in their face though, at a certain distance they’ll change tactics and try something else depending on your actions. Grab related moves are Yoshi’s most effective tools on Bowser, why? Because we Bowser’s shield more often than other characters and Yoshi has the right tools to deal with this.
Double Jump Canceled Egg Lay (DJCEL) is just one of these tactics to punish shielding, incapacitate you and setup for another move; it’s hard to react if you see this move coming but try to spotdodge it, we can’t force Yoshi back with a tilt or jab because of the Super Armor (SA) on the move, hence the DJC beforehand. Yoshi’s are smart with the way certain characters or people break out of their eggs, so try to mix-up the timing on when you’ll break out or watch to see what they do next before deciding when you want to come out. Some Yoshi’s may want to build more damage by attacking you in the egg, others may retreat and ET from afar once more, and some may even predict your break out and punish you again with an aerial reverse DJCEL, that’s not common though so it’s not something you should be too worried about.
They could also revert to a Pivot/dash grab depending on how close you are to them, both being very effective against Bowser. While you’re busy regaining your composure after dealing with an oncoming egg, they can follow up with a grab that more often than not catches you when you least expect it. Yes, Yoshi can air release regrab (rg) chaingrab (cg) us, to the end of the stage and then attempt to get an early gimp with a sweet spotted Fair or Dair. Try to mash buttons and get out as quick as possible or force a ground release, they need to buffer their dashgrab in order to catch us again so if we screw with the release timing they might mess up which could result in us punishing a failed dashgrab.
Good Yoshi’s aren’t dependent on this cg though, the character has been stereotyped to seem totally dependent on this gimmick but I can assure that Yoshi can be quite dangerous without it. Just like us Bowser’s are not reliant on our cg, it’s just another option. Yoshi’s pg is fast so watch out for it, and remember we also have a good pg. If you have managed to get cg’d by Yoshi and are at risk of being spiked I suggest you mash upB and try to Fortress back to the ledge as quick as possible, if you wait too long the Yoshi may go for a Dair which will spell your demise, the Fair however isn’t guaranteed and they won’t catch you most of the time.
Another thing I feel I should mention here is Yoshi’s Dtilt. Watch out for it, it’ll probably catch you off-guard at least once or twice, it has range that rivals our own tilts and Yoshi is crouched to the floor when the move is in motion, which means our Ftilt will go right over his head if he is crouching. If you are in range of Yoshi and wish to Ftilt him (maybe a jab is just out of reach here) make sure you angle the tilt down, to ensure that you don’t get into this silly situation. I repeat, angle your Ftilt’s downward when trying to hit Yoshi with it.

You may be wondering why Klaw hopping (KH) has not been mentioned as a countermeasure to the ET camping game. If you were, slap yourself in the face now. Because of the trajectory of a standard ET, the large hitbox and Bowser’s massive character model, Klaw hopping won’t be getting you around eggs anytime soon. In fact, Klaw Hopping isn’t as effective in this matchup as it might be against say Ganondorf. It’s great when you’re fairly close to Yoshi, but in mid-long range distances? One ET will quickly bring you down to the ground and could lead to many situations we’d rather avoid.

Whatever options a Yoshi turns to will depend on how you react to their ET. Bowser defeats Yoshi on the ground, but this doesn’t mean Yoshi can’t get in or fight back. Sometimes the most simple of setups can catch you, and you’ll be in a world of hurt. Short Hop (SH) Bair to Utilt or something similar (such as Jab cancel to Utilt) is a good combo Yoshi has on us and great for getting us into the dreaded aerial field. I’m not sure what to tell you, just try not to let it happen, Bowser’s blind spot is definitely underneath him and Yoshi can exploit this, especially on a stage like Final Destination without platforms for us to fall back on for Klaw hopping. Our Dair, Nair and even the Bowser Bomb are no match for Yoshi’s ET or Uair, our best bet is to move as far as possible and try to catch him with the Klaw if he gives chase. There is the chance that he will not give chase though, and simply revert back to Egg Tossing. If this is the case, then i'm sorry but we're back to square one.
Yoshi’s aerials defeat all of ours in pretty much all departments with the exception of Fair. It is for this reason why simply falling back to the ground with a possible Klaw on a poorly spaced, incoming aerial is best for when we’re up above. There may be the off chance we could hit them with Nair, Dair, Bair or DownB-again as a result of poor spacing or bad prediction-but these won’t work multiple times and shouldn’t be relied on. Avoid aerial combat as much as possible, of course the simple stuff is just fine, SH Fair, Klaw’s, Uair chasing etc. but you’ll want to stick to the ground for the most part, so keep things short hopped and avoid Double Jumps where they’re not necessary.

The ledge is another field that deserves a bit of attention as it’s pretty important for both characters in this matchup. Depending on the circumstances, getting back from the ledge can be quite difficult against Yoshi. If they decide to space ET then there’s not much we can do aside from jumping from the ledge to try and get back unscathed. There’s also the chance we could get hit by an egg, which Yoshi can follow up with a Dair in an attempt to gimp us, if you find yourself amidst a Yoshi’s Dair over the ledge try and DI up and towards the stage to get out of it, or if the Yoshi is just about to Dair or Fair you, try and Fortress as quick as possible to override it. If they try to Dtilt you to hit you off the ledge go for a getup attack (below 100% of course) or jump up from the ledge again, the move comes out quick so don’t attempt a ledge Klaw.
The other side of the coin is a strange story. We have good tactics against Yoshi on the ledge but we’ve got to know what to do and when to do it. Yoshi has an edge canceled Egg Toss (ECE), I will address this now: He can ET on the ledge and grab the ledge afterward, it’s surprising, it’s annoying and by god it will happen so you better be ready for it. Some Yoshi’s usually do this a total of three or four times before making an attempt to get back up to the stage as it becomes dangerously more difficult the more its used and may result in an accidental SD. The best thing to do in this situation is-rather than powershielding them- use Ftilt to clank with the eggs. Attempting to Powershield at that range is far too risky and it’s safer to turn to Ftilt to clank with the eggs at this point. If you are really close to edge, you can predict an ECE and counterattack with a Dtilt or down angled Ftilt which may hit Yoshi in the ET animation and get him off the ledge for a possible KO. Flame Breath also works in this situation as it breaks the eggs and may hit Yoshi on the ledge and remove his DJ for a quick gimp, but it wears down after a short time and is very slow on startup, there is also the chance that Yoshi will abuse the Super Armor on his DJ to pass right through Flame Breath and make it back safely on stage… and punish the revolting drop lag of Flame Breath; it’s unsafe unless very well spaced and not as reliable as the Ftilt so I don’t recommend it over the former.

Offstage is a pretty simple, predictable scenario. If we are returning to the stage (perhaps after falling victim to an FSmash) we try and recover from mid-high levels. Do not recover low, it is far too risky and we can easily fall prey to Yoshi’s Fair or Dair. Yoshi can Fair us at mid levels, but we have an answer to that, the Klaw. Well timed Klaw’s will eat Yoshi’s Fair for breakfast and bring us back to the stage… or cause a Bowsercide, it’s your call (most of the time anyway). If we recover high it limits Yoshi’s options, he could attempt to attack us with a Fair or Nair which we can Klaw through if done correctly, or he could attempt to go for a Uair or an ET, both of which can be easily air-dodged.
If Yoshi is the one recovering the stage, we could follow him offstage for a Fair/Nair attack, but that’s relatively unsafe and can only be done if he is close enough, we suck in the air remember? But chances are Yoshi will throw an egg or two if we’re waiting by the ledge, those can be dealt with by quickly clanking or powershielding them, then it’s up to his DJ to get him back. If he goes for the ledge, obviously grab it before they do or tilt him. If he recovers high-depending on how well you know your opponent-USmash, Utilt or aerial Klaw are the best things options, or if you’re feeling brave you could try a Uair, or bait an airdodge with a full hopped Uair and hit him with Fair or another aerial if he’s close enough. Personally I prefer waiting patiently for an airdodge and either going for Utilt or a pg depending on our positions.

Yoshi’s KO potential, while not as impressive in comparison to other characters in similar tiers, should still be feared. Never forget that Yoshi can still gimp us offstage with his blasted forward and down aerials. His best alternative KO moves would be FSmash, USmash, Uair and the Yoshi Bomb (DownB); good Yoshi’s will land these. USmash is fairly deceptive and swings all the way around (like our Utilt) and KO’s uncharged at around 150% or so fresh on FD. FSmash is similar, but aims to KO toward the sides as opposed to upward, and can do so much earlier without DI, so make sure you aim toward the top corners of stages to survive longer. Very good Yoshi players can also space this move with their infamous character exclusive AT known as the Dragonic Reverse which I will address at a later point.
Then there’s Uair, it isn’t as powerful as our own but it is still mighty strong and can KO from the early-mid 100%'s if we’re caught pretty high in the air by it. It may be predictable and easily air dodged but god dammit don’t say I didn’t warn you if you fall victim to it and get KO’d at a stupidly low percentage. It is quick and powerful, we cannot challenge it with Dair/Nair or DownB so don’t even try it, spaced Klaw’s counter it though, but a Yoshi shouldn’t be going for it unless he in directly under us. It can also be short hopped and auto-canceled, something to note.
Now for the Yoshi Bomb: It is better than our very own Bowser Bomb. It can be jab canceled just like ours, it also has an initial hit that combo’s into the second hit… unlike ours which has the former but not the latter, it is not lacking in hitboxes like ours as they cover the bottom and sides of Yoshi’s body whereas ours only swathe the bottom of Bowser and are still pathetic, the Yoshi Bomb also has stars upon landing on the floor and coupled with relatively short ending lag make punishing it very hard… unlike ours which suffers from no landing protection and the most horrific ending lag ever, lastly the Yoshi Bomb slides down slopped terrain, making it far more versatile, abuse-able and totally un-punishable on certain stages… unlike our very own Bomb where we do not get the Luxury of sliding across slopped terrain and we must sit where we land for five second while the enemy prepares a counterattack. The trade-off is that the Yoshi Bomb has a tad less knockback then the Bowser Bomb… that’s it. It’s still very capable of KO-ing and a threat in the air and on the ground.
Exactly how the slight decrease in knockback compared to our bomb is a fair trade-off is beyond me but at this point in the third installment of the acclaimed Super Smash Bros. franchise of fighting video games I have come to accept that there is little point in questioning the decisions made by Masahiro Sakurai and the Smash development team. Point is the Yoshi Bomb ***** grapes. It KO’s, in the air and on the ground, and he can cancel his jab into it so watch out.

Next I’ll bring up Yoshi’s shield; or as me and auroreon like to call it, the cage. It cannot be shield poked and slides around a bit when hit with high knockback moves. The trade-off is that Yoshi is completely trapped; he has no options OoS except to spotdodge and cannot even jump OoS, it is a terrible curse for a character that does not deserve it and Yoshi’s won’t be shielding often like other characters. If a Yoshi is shielding then using the Klaw is a good answer as is DSmash (if you’re close enough). Because of this terrible burden good Yoshi are more inclined to spot dodge in certain situations rather than shield, learn habits, predict and punish.

Now I’ll write a small part about the Dragonic Reverse (DR). It’s not something that should be taken too seriously unless Yoshi’s master the move and implement it into their game. You probably won’t come across one who uses it but there is the chance that you will so it’s worth mentioning. The DR is essentially… well, a wavedash. It is very difficult to perform which is why many Yoshi’s gave up on the move and dismissed it as unviable before even trying to learn it, but some do use it, not often, but they do. It’s surprising and can leave you bewildered but stand your ground. They can use it to space their longer ranged ground moves such as tilts and even Forward or Down Smash. I was once tech chased across Final Destination by DR’d Dtilt’s, its pretty mind boggling.

Yoshi is a strange character with some fairly wacky movements but we can at least fight him competently. While some of our strengths are null and others countered we can still put up a good fight. The usual stuff works like a charm, including jab cancels and tilts at the right distance. Yoshi is fairly heavy and one of those characters that won’t die to the Klaw early with good DI, it is for this reason why the Klaw plays much more of a damaging move in this matchup as opposed to a KO move, as Yoshi can survive this move with good DI over 170% on FD and over 160% on the other neutrals (bar Battlefield). Other ways to damage Yoshi are the usual flame breath, jab cancels and grabs. Flame Breath not so much though, in this matchup it should not be relied on, Yoshi is quite heavy, yes, but remember he also has SA on his DJ which means he can DJ through Flame Breath using SA to escape and punish, this doesn’t mean Flame Breath is useless, just don’t use it for extended periods of time. Jab cancel to full jab/Klaw/dashgrab when he is close to you and jab cancel to Forward or Down tilt when he is out of the other moves reach.

Grabbing Yoshi deserves its own paragraph. We do not have a Chaingrab on Yoshi. We cannot follow up any releases on Yoshi. We cannot follow up any throws on Yoshi. You may attempt to cg Yoshi once or twice a match if you feel you will get away with it but it is NOT guaranteed so don’t act like it is. Pummel then throw Yoshi depending on the current situation, you can Dthrow Yoshi if you’re both center staged and attempt to follow up or possibly tech chase, or you could Uthrow if you want to and try to follow up with… something. Fthrow and Bthrow are best if you want Yoshi in a certain position or to get them off the stage or any similar situation, throw them into a stage hazard or something. Point is, chaingrabbing is out of the question.

Aside from Smash attacks, Dtilt is probably our best move for KO-ing Yoshi, Ftilt may be a bit too decayed when the Yoshi is within KO range and it’s the next best alternative, it also hits Yoshi twice guaranteed at very low percentages if he is close enough by the way, a nice amount of damage from the go is always welcome. Hitting twice also means in rare situations the second swipe could hit through Yoshi’s SA if they DJ, it’s not a common scenario but it can happen. Utilt is a good option too, especially through platforms, KO-ing fresh at around 120%ish on most neutrals; USmash also does a similar job but isn’t as quick or efficient, it can be used to punish spot dodging on a platform though so don’t count it out. Don’t forget about FSmash on the ledge, punishing spot dodges with DSmash and surprise Bowser Bomb’s in certain situations. Fortress also KO’s fresh at around the 150% mark, it’s a decent revenge KO move.

Our ground game demolishes Yoshi as it does with many other characters. We can wreck Yoshi with tilts and eat a lot of his moves with Klaw to build up damage quickly; we outrange Yoshi and outprioritize in many cases. We also survive to ridiculous percentages so Yoshi should and could go for a gimp at any time offstage. The extreme pro’s stop here though. Yoshi outcamps us, and while it’s nothing on the level of say Falco, the Egg Toss is still awkward to deal with, messed up power shields or even successful ones can often result in a grab, and grabs from Yoshi turn to chaingrabs. Egg Lay can be difficult to deal with, not because it’s particularly threatening but because it ruins whatever flow Bowser had going and puts him back to square one. Bowser also cannot chaingrab Yoshi for any extra damage and while it may not seem so bothersome right now, when you factor in that Bowser also cannot follow up any throws or releases grabbing becomes pretty old, pretty quickly, and while you hold Yoshi in your grasp you quickly realize you should be somersaulting through the air with the rainbow colored pest underneath your herculean body.
Both characters have strengths over one another, but its Yoshi’s harsh chaingrab, flexible projectile, shield punishing capabilities, surprising tolerance to even some of Bowser’s strongest KO moves, Super Armor and his inability to be chaingrabbed by Bowser which leads me conclude that-as close as this matchup is-Yoshi is at the slight advantage. 40:60 is too much of a stretch in my opinion. 45:55 is the closest to an accurate ratio.

Stages that work well for Yoshi:

Neutral

- Final Destination is the stage the ban in serious play. Yoshi has far too much space to chaingrab and egg camp, not to mention the wide death zones allow Yoshi to survive just a little longer than other neutrals. Stay away from this.
- Yoshi’s Island is Yoshi’s best stage, sloped terrain in certain places on the field and a massive tilting platform allow Yoshi to slide about the stage, bombing like a madman, and you will quickly find that it is a pain in the *** and makes things oh so much more difficult. The ratio stays the same because while Yoshi becomes harder to hit and tougher to fight, his chaingrabbing is limited here thanks to the size of the fighting platform and the slopped terrain once again. The ghost helps also, and the side of the field offstage means we can DI a Fair spike and tech the wall, allowing Bowser to survive a potential gimp. It may be impractical to some, but the option is there

Counterpick

- Frigate Orpheon Limits Bowser’s abuse of shield-Fortress because of stage turning, as well as limiting his recovery on field 1 because the right side of the field has no ledges to grab. The stages are also small meaning there will be a lot of air time and offstage which is not something we want. Egg Lay is tougher to deal with here.

Stages that work well for Bowser:

Neutral

- Battlefield . Come to this place against Yoshi, it is your best friend. This stage carries so much influence for Bowser I say it knocks the matchup ratio to 50:50, it broadens Bowser’s options while limiting Yoshi’s further. With platforms comes Bowser’s ability to abuse the Klaw much more to get around the stage, Klaw cancel through platforms and such, Flame Breath from on top of a platform, whatever you wish. The platforms limit Yoshi’s egg camping to a very respectable degree; they mess with Yoshi’s chaingrab and leave Yoshi in a sticky situation if he is standing on one with Bowser underneath. He cannot shield Uair or USmash; if he does he will be pushed off the ledge allowing a free setup for Bowser (tilt ahoy). The top platform also allows Bowser to manoeuvre a successful Klaw onto it, bringing them both much close to the upward death zone, making the Klaw a much more viable KO move here.

Counterpick

- Brinstar has abuseable stage pieces for Bowser’s tilts and smashes. The stage terrain prevents successful chaingrabbing from Yoshi and the acid occasionally prevents spikes and gimps.

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Delta-cod said:

Inb4massivereply.

Note: Yoshi does not have Super Armor on his DJ. It is Heavy Armor, akin to Snake's cypher.

Yoshi has invincibility on his head during Usmash, Fsmash, and Dash Attack.



There are many playstyles for Yoshi, and good ones can mix and match the camp with the aggro. The type of aggression you described is the bad kind. A Yoshi who decides to go on the offensive in this Mu will be utilizing DJCEL mixed up with bairs. DJCEL, when spaced properly, will beat everything but a spot dodge. Back air will beat spot dodge. Back air can also be used to pass through and Nair behind you, which is generally safe. I'm not sure if this is safe against Fortress, however, just putting it out there.



Dair is pretty godly against large targets. Very good shield pressure, good at poking damaged shields. If your shield is damage, Dair can and will hit you, and if you shield it all you risk getting shield broken.



As you get closer to Yoshi, powershielding becomes increasingly difficult. At the farthest range, we really only have one trajectory to hit you with. The closer you get, the more variations we have, which causes changes in timing to the shield. A properly angled egg can also bounce off a powershield and explode, so if you drop the shield right after hitting the egg, you might end up getting hit. This is much more common during ECE, however. For this to happen on stage, the egg generally needs to glance the top of the shield.



A generally safe follow up on a successful EL is to space an usmash so you hit with the tip of Yoshi's head during the end of it. It's a good extra damage as well as being pretty much unpunishable. ET is another option, which adds a good 5-is percent. You're also forced into the air from an EL, making it a larger threat. Also, it's HA, not SA.


Generally speaking, dash grab is very risky. A common mistake Yoshis make is seeing you shield an egg then rushing for the dash grab. While it's quick to come out, the end lag is terrible. Also, most Yoshis will slow down the munching after a certain amount of pummels so they're completely prepared for the release. While mixing up the break outs is effective,
the longer you take the more damage you'll suffer, and the more moves we refresh.



Dtilt is a good spacing and poking move. It's also pretty useful for mixing up out of jabs, and for hitting you off ledges. It's trajectory is pretty dangerous for Bowser's recovery, since it hits pretty much slightly below horizontally, a weak semi-spike. It makes for a relatively easy edge guard.



Against a character as large as Bowser, you're pretty much screwed getting back from the ledge over 100%. A spaced ET will limit all options, including ledge dropping to DJ back on stage, assuming Bowser can do that. All options are pretty much covered by egg and pivot grab, so it's very difficult to return. If we Dair you offstage, you can potentially DI up and footstool us out of it, dooming us. Fair is pretty laggy and not incredibly useful in the air.



Flame Breath should never remove a Yoshi's DJ if they're using ECE. Yoshis use tap off, so their DJ can be saved. you can hit him out of the egg, but odds are he'll just DJ through and Nair you, land and grab you, or Bair set up.



Recovery is a big problem for Bowser, generally. Recover low and it's an easy edgehog, or Dair. We can also grab the ledge, forcing you to go for the stage. If you try to knock us off the ledge or get to close, we can drop off and Uair you to set you up for juggles. It's a good killing tactic, especially since Bowser's a fatty.

Also, if Bowser is recovering at mid height, we have a certain set up that can be used to allow for an easy edgeguard. If we jump off the ledge and throw an egg at you, you have few options. Clank it, Airdodge, or get hit. If you clank it, we can follow up with an aerial since we'll be carried out there by the ET momentum. If you airdodge, we can punish that. If you get hit, we can capitalize on the hitstun. It's essentially very easy to tack on damage once Bowser is offstage.

If you recover high, we can wait for you to fall. It's not very good for Bowser to be above Yoshi, so while you may make it to the stage, you can have trouble making it down. We can also follow you up with a super jump, similar to Klaw Hopping, only using Yoshi's massive double jump. Essentially, we can be at a DJ's height and still have a DJ left to chase you with.



Yoshi can also use a falling B-reversed egg lay to change momentum and grab you out of an attack. We can also wavebounce eggs in the air to try and mess you up, but it's not incredibly useful.



Fsmash will generally be used to punish something. You may get trapped trying to get back on the stage from the ledge and airdodge into one. Usmash is generally staled since it's such a good anti air and juggling move. Uair is godlike, since we can chase you with it and edgeguard you with it. Very useful. Yoshi bomb is also very good out of jab mix ups and for punishing attempts to return from the ledge. Nair also has KO potential for edge guarding, and it's much faster than Fair, so watch out.



When trapped in a shield, most Yoshis will either wait for a move to spotdodge then use a quick move to get away, or shield a move and roll away. Yoshi's shield does indeed slide, and if you roll with the slide, you can get a massive boost, putting us in a much safer position. It's still a pretty bad shield, though it's not as bad as everyone thinks. I don't really ever get shield *****.



As ironic as it is, Yoshi's Island is actually not a very good Yoshi stage. Shy Guys interfere with egg camping. The platform also messes with egg toss. The slants mess up grabs, though they can be used for Yoshi Bomb slides, they're not so useful that we can just spam them over and over. Honestly, I'd say Smashville is a better stage than YI for Yoshi.



This stage is also very good for camping. In the first transformation, we can camp the left platform which makes your approach quite linear. The dip in the second part is also a very good camp zone.

Other stages I'd possibly include are:

Castle Siege - This is one of my personal favorite CPs, one thing here is important, the walk offs. The second stage is a very large threat to Bowser, since it is very possible to walk off CG you for easy kills. You can try to stall on the platforms or banisters, but we can just egg you as you run from the threat of the walk off. Bowser doesn't really have the mobility to avoid all the eggs, so this stage is very good for tacking on damage or easy kills.

The first stage is more up close, but Yoshi can handle it with good use of Bairs, Egg Lays, and pivot grabs. We can also camp the bottom slope well, due to the arc of our projectile. The third stage is like a mini FD, that slants. Not a problem at all. The transformations can also lead to walk off CGs.

Delfino - Mainly for walk offs or wall infinite Grab releases. We can also recover from under the stage if necessary, and use the water to refresh our DJ if needed. While we can't necessarily edgeguard you as well due to the water, you also cannot get out of the water safely. Eggs hit in a way that causes you to keep landing in the water, which forces you to surface, which can be punished by another egg. Then there aren't ledges to help you get up, so you can be punished for returning as well.

Stages that work well for Bowser:



Mainly wanted to note here, that while being on a platform does put us in a bad spot, it's very possible for us to simply wait for you to hit the shield, then roll with the slide. It doesn't really allow for a set up since we'll be propelled quite far away. This stage also requires a pretty different playstyle, generally a more aggressive one, involving good use of Bair and egg lay. We can camp under platforms pretty decently, however, so don't rule out camping.


Yoshi sux at Brinstar and it's always my ban. Not much for Yoshi to do here. The terrain completely messes with him. It'd probably be played similar to BF, except with less success. I always ban this stage. Always.

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Zigsta said:

First of all Swei, I wanna say you've gotten a lot better and are clearly listening to the advice you've been given. So props!

Moving on to Olimar--you definitely need more basic understanding of the MU. Here's some biggies that stuck out to me:

-NEVER run up to Olimar and dash grab him from a long distance. You're asking to get spotdodged>grabbed or upsmashed. This goes for any character in Brawl. Pivot grabbing works nice instead, or charged upsmash if you can bait/predict the spotdodge, which is the usual reaction to someone running right up to you.

-When Olimar is in the air above you, stay directly beneath him and DO NOT JUMP. Olimar will either dair (if he's higher up), nair (if he's falling close to the ground--this will chain into upsmash typically), airdodge, or Whistle. Be patient and bait Olimar, then punish with upsmash, dsmash, Klaw, or pivot grab. Jumping up to meet Olimar is asking to get punished and you'll lose all your momentum.

-You're still using ftilt too much. You have a bad habit of covering empty Klaw Hops with it, which is honestly just a rookie habit. My advice: Play a ton of matches without using ftilt at ALL. It forces you to be more creative with your approaches, and you'll soon learn when's the best time to use ftilt. It's more of a bait move than a reflex, which is what it is for you as of now. If it helps, have a friend punch you every time you ftilt. I'm dead serious. I used to have a nasty spotdodge reflex, and my friend hit me every time I did it. I became more aware of it, and now I only spotdodge when it feels right, not because it's a reflexive habit.

-You're too aerial against Olimar. I know the initial reaction to having Pikmin thrown at you is to be on the air, but the Pikmin will still latch onto you, and then you're in the air to be jiggled or killed. Olimar's really good on the ground, but Jab literally beats all his Pikmin attacks if you time it right. Jab is a nightmare for Olimar, especially with jab canceling thrown in.

-I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but good job getting that fsmash KO game 3 by using the purple Pikmin as an extended hitbox. Olimars typically throw purples at you when they're offstage so that they can knock you away from the ledge--if you can time an attack right, the Pikmin can extend your attack, almost always gimping Olimar in the process. This only works on purples since the rest latch onto you.

-Good job picking up on your opponent's weakness to jab>regrab. You'll find some opponents are more vulnerable to certain GR mixups than others. If you spot a possible habit to being GR'd, exploit it. Some people actually think jab>regrab is a true CG and don't realize they can spotdodge or attack.

-Throw in some Firebreath every now and then. It's got more range when fully charged than Olimar's pivot grab.

-Speaking of, try using pivot grabs more to punish landings. It helps.

-Be careful fsmashing Olimars on the ledge--it's a surefire way to get fair'd. However if you notice the Olimar likes to instant return, fsmash will beat him every single time. You'll find a lot of top Olimars like to use this since they typically can get off an attack quickly plus it looks fancy. I've fsmashed literally every top Olimar out of instant return multiple times.


Overall like I said, you've improved a lot, Swei. I know you'll get even better next time.

Kalm, I overlooked your videos. Will critique them next soon as I have time.

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FALCO​

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Limit- said:

I personally think we're just recapping more than trying to restart conversation.

All you need to do is be patient. Don't blindly approach Snake, and take into account any grenades that are on the field. If a grenade ever explodes and you get hit, expect Snake to take advantage of you being in the air. Well, he should. You'll be in the air, and it'll be hell to get down to the ground. Snake can trap your landings, or punish your airdodges. Snake can also uptilt your klaws if he feels them coming (yeah, it's more of a reactionary thing) because Snake's hitbox is reaaaally large.

NAir is something Snakes usually abuse because Bowser looks so large (I'm talking about ignorant Snakes that thing approaching with FHNAir wins them the game). Realistically speaking, it's hard..well hard for me, to DI out of NAir. But if you get caught in it just try to get out.

Snakes like to BAir when coming down, but if you don't PS it, you can FTilt/Klaw/DTilt oos and still reach him. If you DO ps it, he's just ****ed lmao.

Aside from that, just be patient, and when you grab him or get damage on him, be sure to get him into the air. Bowser can take advantage of his landings, and I mean it. Bowser can do nasty stuff out of the ground AND air releases.

If you ever powershield Snake's first FTilt, take full advantage of that. You can up-b/jab/ftilt in between the first/second ftilt if it's PS'd.

If you plan on using fire to damage/just space, be sure not to do it too much, because Snake can DI into you and BAir, and it's a really powerful move. Snake's DThrow is disgusting, it's really easy to read Bowser's getup options, and snake can take really nasty advantage of that.

Overall, just be patient, jump around/insta-throw grenades and just get your hits in/get him in the air. get your grabs. (basic MU knowledge)

oh, and if you're ever ****ed about landing because a mine is under you, you can klaw hop on top of it and not need to worry about that. Bowser's usmash also jumps high enough so that the C4 explosion hitbox doesn't damage Bowser.

I'd personally start on BF/SV against a Snake for the first round. I don't really know what to counterpick though.

I guess I'll just post something on each character everyday/whenever I have free time. I can't do all 35 at once...

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Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

I assume we are doing Bowser then?

Bowser is tougher than he looks. By now, you should have learnt in Brawl that heavies like Bowser are no longer pushovers

Bowser has surprisingly good range and power on his attacks. His tilts have long range and an up angled F Tilt (if you're low enough) and Up Tilt can knock you out of the sky. This makes approaching Bowser on the ground a bi of a pain. His F Smash is horribly strong when all the hits connect and it can even go straight through Toad and hit Peach. Peach's F Tilt clanks with Bowser's F Smash

Bowser also has a surprisingly good aerial game. His Side B can be used in the air and will laglessly cancel into anything if it doesn't connect when he reaches the ground (when used properly). His Fair has long range, his Bair and Uair are both strong and his Dair has multiple hits. Peach's Bair and Bowser's Bair trade hits btw.

There are two things you really really have to watch out for in this match. First off his Bowsers Side B, the Koopa Klaw. We did it a while ago on my thread if anyones interested. It's basically a special kind of grab and a very good anti air move. Once he grabs you, he'll spin in the air and then come crashing down. If you're losing, you can control where he goes in the air. When he lands it is CRUCIAL you DI correctly. Bowsers Side B has enough power to kill Peach who uses bad DI

Then there's Bowsers grab release. He can continually ground grab release Peach. The only way for her to truly escape is to jump release. Unfortunetly, Bowser can follow up with an F Tilt (or another grab) if she ground releases and a Fair if Peach jump releases

I find staying in the air for short bursts at a time works best. Turnip barrages are a key to winning. Fair is very good at defending yourself against Bowser's Fair and aerial Side B. Unfortunetly, this stales her best kill move. Don't be surprised if Bowser stays alive for such a long period of time

Bowser is big and heavy. If you get a Dair in, go for another one and another if you can manage. Bowser has poor recovery as well so gimping him is a good way to KO him...easier said than done though. Bowser's Up + B, which is not only a horribly surprisingly OoS option (and KO move), will cancel Turnips out the majority of the time. Good ledge play is needed here. Toad his recovery if all else fails

I personally think that the match up is somewhere around the 55-45/60-40 area in Peach's favour. Bowser is not to be underestimated

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MrEh said:

Okay, quick matchup summary coming!



Okay, first of all, you need to avoid Bowser's grab. This is a problem for some characters, but not for you. That's because you are Peach, and you should not be grabbed. If you're not floating in this matchup, then you're doing it wrong.

What sort of horrors can Bowser unleash out of his grab? Grab releases. If Bowser grabs Peach and you get a ground release, he can grab you again for more pummel damage and he can even use a Klaw, which will do a sizeable 18%. You fare a little better if you jump out of Bowser's grab with a jump release, but it's still not a very good thing. If you jump out, Bowser can Fair you, which can KO at the ledge. However, you should not be overly scared of this. Remember that you are Peach, and if you're using Peach, you are floating. If you're not floating, you're doing it wrong.


Bowser also has a very large shield, which he an use to absorb attacks and counterattack with his OoS options. Large shields are not a problem for you, because you are Peach. If you're not floating and Dairing/Fairing your opponent, you're doing it wrong.

Bowser's OoS options are pretty beastly though. His Fortress has invincibility frames and comes out instantly. If you're not floating at head height, which you should be, you'll probably be hit by it. Just make sure you're floating high enough for this to be ineffective. Then again, I think the hitbox might have some vertical disjoint, so I'll test it to see if the Fortress can stop Dairs and such. (probably not, but I mind as well)


Oh, and there's a move that deserves it's own paragraph. The Utilt. Bowser's Utilt is absolutely beastly, and it's one of the most powerful Utilts in the game. It comes out fast, has lots of priority (it will beat all your aerials), and a very bogus hitbox. Did I mention it'll probably kill at 110%? The reason I mention this move is that it's simply too good. It's very hard to predict, and it's one of Bowser's most usable killing moves. Watch out for this, especially if there are platforms around.


Other then that, watch out for the occasional aerial and Bowser's edgeguard shenanigans. Make sure you save your killing moves, otherwise he'll be a nightmare to kill.

So yeah, I would agree on something like 60-40. I might go as far to argue that it's 55-45, but that seems a bit low.

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TOON LINK​

Limit- said:

I was one of the few NY players with the unfortunate luck of having to play Jash e v e r y single time we were at the same tournament.

Uh..my memory is slipping but to go off of what Dre was saying, don't even waste your time with DAir'ing anything. Unless it really comes down to that, which should be really rare because TL can punish the **** out of that lol, and you should try to avoid being in the air. I will say that now.

The point for the above is that should you either not be able to shield fast enough or if your shield is drained and you're risking a poke, you can jab nearly all of his projectiles and they'll cancel out (I forget if you can safely jab a bomb or not but that's kind of stupid anyway)

Zigsta and Dre were right, the only real solution is to just turtle it out and do what you can. TL will focus on zoning and forcing you to approach.

I really wouldn't recommend over extending yourself. What I mean is using tilts and extending hurtboxes and **** like that because TL can run up and NAir you, and ZAir is already long enough, so try not to make his job easier for him.

One of the gracious things is the pretty big weight difference between both characters. You can take a ZAir or a NAir if you need to in order to get something done, because a couple of trades will put TL closer to death than Bowser. I just really can say that you definitely do not want to be in the air, just avoid that as much as possible because he can get kills and some pretty hefty damage off of frame traps and baited airdodges. There's not too much you can do. Just do what Bowser does best and stay on the ground. Don't get overzealous.

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MrEh said:

Okay, I'm just popping in from the Bowser boards to give some input. I hope you guys hear me out. Here comes the massive wall of text!


I can imagine that some people believe that the matchup is something like 70-30 in Game and Watch's favor. His advantages over Bowser sound pretty solid on paper. He's freakishly strong, he has fast attacks, lots of range, lots of priority, he's near ungimpable, and the turtle totally *****. How can Bowser, a character that many people don't even take seriously, compare to that?

First of all, I'll say this about Bowser. He's a turtle, pun intended. Most Bowser players literally live inside of their shields. Spot dodging and rolling is not something that Bowser players do on reflex, but shielding is. Shielding for Bowser is like spot dodging for ROB, that's how much Bowser needs the thing. Bower also deserves some credit for having the biggest shield in the game, meaning that he can actually absorb things like Turtles fairly easily without getting stabbed. Hell, he can even absorb Nados with the thing.

This is a matchup where you need to space well. If you do not space well, you will lose, simply because Bowser punishes improperly spaced attacks with such incredible ferocity. Improperly spaced Turtles and Fairs will be met with a Fortress OoS, which is one of Bowser's most well known tricks. The Fortress is by far, one of the best special moves in the game, and for good reason. It comes out fast, since the hitbox appears on frame 6. You can't hit Bowser during the startup time either since the Fortress has invincibility frames on frames 1-5. That makes the Fortress an ideal countering move for nearly any improperly spaces move. If the Fortress hits close to Game and Watch, it'll do upwards of 15 damage, and knock you away from Bowser. It's important to note that at higher percentages, the Fortress can be used a a surprise killing move if you're not careful. While it's killing power is still inferior to it's Melee counterpart, it's still a viable killing move out of a shield. To put it simply, if you're above 95%, make sure you choose your attacks carefully, otherwise it might spell death for you. Make sure you space your turtles and Fairs well, otherwise this fight will be very annoying.

Like I said before, you must space properly to avoid the Fortress. However, even if you land outside of the Fortress's range, still has ways to reach you. His Jabs come out as fast as the Fortress does, and they have as much range as hit Ftilt. Even if you land outside of Fortress range, Bowser can still start jabbing like a madman and possibly reach you with it. Another attack that can be used this way is the Klaw, which is one of Bowser's best attacks. As you probably know, the Klaw is a grab, but it's comes out fast (8 frames) and it has very deceptive range. It has the ability to kill, but mostly it's used for damage. Doing 18% a pop is pretty deadly, especially if you're light like Game and Watch. Which is why I say again, spacing helps this matchup from being super frustrating.

For the third paragraph now, I'll say it again. Space well. If you're using the Turtle or Fair, they try to hit him with the end of it. In fact, it would be best to stay as far away from Bowser as possible in this matchup. Bowser's fast ground game combined with his OoS tricks really screws Game and Watch up if you try the direct approach. (Which you shouldn't be doing anyway, because you're Game and Watch. ) Make sure you try and time your aerials to reduce their ending lag as much as possible. A mistimed Fair means enough lag for Bowser to get one of his Dash Grabs in. While Bowser will have difficulty grabbing a competent Game and Watch, you still must be careful to avoid Bowser's grab as much as possible. It's not Bowser's throws that you should be worried about, since he lacks anything deadly like Game and Watch's Dthrow. However, Bowser has another trick up his sleeve; grab releases.

As many people now know, Bowser totally ***** out of a grab. That's because due to some bizarre programming oversight, Bowser recovers from grabbing 10 frames quicker then everyone else. That means that Bowser gets 10 free frames to do whatever he wants to Game and Watch if you get released on the ground. This sucks, a lot. If you get released on the ground, Bowser can keep grabbing you again, and there's no way to escape if Bowser's timing is perfect. Bowser can essentially pummel Game and Watch for quite a bit of damage this way, which is why you should try to jump out of Bowser's grab as soon as possible. However, it's a bad situation either way. You see, if you get a jump release on Bowser, Bowser can abuse those 10 free frames even more.

When you get a jump release, Game and Watch will suffer 50 frames of immobility, while Bowser will only suffer 20. That means that Bowser has half a second to attack Game and Watch while he's floating in air. This puts Game and Watch in a very bad position, since Bowser can jump and Klaw Game and Watch this way. (As always, 18% is not cool.) If Bowser has grabbed, or chaingrabbed Game and Watch at the ledge, then Bowser can even Fair out of a jump release, which can be dangerous if Game and Watch is at high percents. All in all, try your best to avoid the grab. Bowser's grab range isn't that impressive, so avoiding it shouldn't be a big problem. However, it's always important to know how much **** Bowser can do out of a grab. Doing upwards of 35% from a grab is somewhat that you need to watch out for, especially since Bowser can pull out killing moves from his grabs. Which is why I'll say again, you need to space yourself. Getting close to Bowser means it's that much easier for him to land a grab.

Oh, and beware of Bowserciding. If Bowser grabs you near the ledge, then he can grab release into a Klaw, which is a potential suicide. Always DI toward the stage, or it's a free kill for him. This is important to note because Bowser's grab release chains into a Klaw so easily, and since your jump release moves Game and Watch a considerable horizontal distance, it makes it even easier for Bowser to land a successful Bowsercide on you. Not something you should worry about too much, just be careful.

Beware of Bowser's edguarding game as well. Bowser's moveset is tailored to edgeguarding pretty well, and he has lots of tools to utilize. Granted, it's near impossible for Bowser to gimp Game and Watch, but he can still edguard him all the same. (just with difficulty) Angled Ftilts come out surprisingly fast and have good range to them. Bowser's Dtilt does as well, and they both can hit you if you're not careful. Although it seems silly for me to mention it, take note of Bowser's Fsmash. Bowser's Fsmash has a really weird disjointed hitbox, so it can hit you on the ledge even if Bowser's head doesn't reach it. You'd be surprised at how many surprise kills Bowser can get simply because people don't know that the Fsmash is heavily disjointed. Really, it has longer range they Marth's Fsmash. Just look out for it and try not to get predictable with your approaches. Well spaced approaches can actually be stopped with a well placed Fsmash, simply because the hitbox is so outragously huge. And of course, as you know, the Fsmash usually means death if it hits. You shouldn't see it much, but it's still a move that's very usable for Bowser. (I actually think it's his best smash, if that's saying anything.)

Do not expect to gimp Bowser in this matchup either. I'm not being overly optimistic about Bowser's recovery either. Bowser is simply a character that is much harder to gimp then most people believe. Yes, his recovery follows a very predictable trajectory, but it actually pushes Bowser a very considerable distance. Because of the high amounts of priority the Fortress has, as well as its invincibility frames, Bowser's Fortess can go through a lot of things as long as it's used with proper timing. Once, I managed to avoid a Wario Waft edgegaurd just because the invincibility frames of the Fortress cut right though it. Not a likely scenario, but it's definitely possible. If Bowser is getting gimped in this matchup, then he's doing it wrong. Well timed Fortesses can be Bowser's answer to like, everything.

And the final thing I'm going to mention...Bowser's Utilt. This move is godly, and probably one of the best Utilts in the game. First of all, the Utilt comes out fast so it's not very telegraphed. It also kills early, and is one of Bowser's most usable killing moves. If you're above 90%, then it can kill quite easily fresh. One of the things that makes this move so awesome is that it has lots of priority and an extremely bogus hitbox. The hitbox for his move is so weirdly disjointed that it even outrages and beats all of Meta's aerials. For God's sake, beware of this piece of crap. It can even go through Turtles, Fairs, and Nairs if you're not careful.



So yeah, that's all I have to say. I actually believe the matchup to be 60-40 in Game and Watch's favor. Sorry for all the text. ><

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omegablackmage said:

Bowser: (60/40)

General Matchup:

• Bowser, the king of grab releases. He's notable for racking up damage with his releases, and he can have decent range and punishment options as well. Also, being a heavyweight, he has the notorious strong ko moves and the high weight.
• Bowser has some interesting moves. For the most part, he doesn't have too much range, but dtilt, ftilt, uptilt, jabs, fsmash all have pretty decent range/priority. Also, his up b oos has invincibility, so that will be able to beat attacks if used correctly.
• Bowser has a plethora of kill moves. Dtilt, smashes, up air/tilt, are all really strong, and the fair, side b, bair, ftilt, can also kill if they kept them fresh. Overall, if your at around 80, you need to be really weary, most of the moves in his set can ko gw pretty quickly.
• There are very few edgeguard options for bowser. Flame angled down can apply pressure to gw once he lands on the stage, but overall bowser going off the stage will put him in a risky position. However when your on the ledge, watch out for angled ftilts, dtilts, and fsmashes, they pack a punch and can hit you when your on the ledge.
• Fairs work well to push bowser off the stage, but your going to need good spacing. Fortress has pretty good priority, so your going to need to work around that. Other than that, good hogs and dtilts will probably help too. His recovery is pretty 1 tracked, he doesn't have any tools to get back other than up b, so use that to your advantage.
• Combos for bowser? lol, no just his grab releases. He can forward b and fair you if you jump break from the grab, and jab, ftilt, regrab, and side b. Not too bad, other characters have it worse, and you should be able to avoid grabs easily enough, however, keep in mind that at like 80 percent near the edge, this could spell an easy way for him to kill.
• Bowsers buffer roll is horrendous, and his tech roll is only average at best, dthrowing is probably a good idea in this matchup considering his large body size too. When up throwing/up airing him, watch for the bowser bomb, other than that upairs/nairs will probably wreck him.

General Strategies:

• This matchup is pretty simple, like alot of the other low/mid tiers are. Its mostly using your range to your advantage, whereas they can't do too much about it, which is usually what makes them low tier in the first place.
• Work to avoid getting grabbed, which will hurt you the most. Fortresses will be used on the bowsers part to get them outta tight spots, so keep that in mind. Overall, fsmashes are probably the only move you really have to work around, and those are easily punished. Pressure with good spacing, and you will come out on top fairly easily.
• Bucket the fire breath if they use it alot, but it isn't the strongest of buckets, only probably killing at like 60 and up.
• Ledgecamping is a complete pain for bowser to deal with, use this if your desperate and need some breathing room.
• The uptilt is probably going to kill you the earliest of all his ko moves, its one of the strongest uptilts in the game.
• Watch the bowsercides, di into the stage at all times when you get up b'd.

Stages:

• Anywhere bad recoveries falter. RC, frigate, japes all probably work good as usual. Yoshi's is probably his best neutral, just a guess though.
• Avoid shallow ceilings probably, like halberd/corneria.

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Emblem Lord said:

Overall Bowser's defensive game rivals Marth.

His up b is amazing and really great out of shield.

He has flamebreathe to shut down ground approaches and f-tilt to punish poor spacing as well as his d-tilt and jab combo. Overall he has a very good ground game. He is also very heavy so he can take alot of punishment. To add to his arsenal he has his grab release set-ups which can go into almost anything he wants.

Perfect spacing is needed in this match lest Marth eat an f-tilt, up b out of shield or worse get grabbed and then grab released.

When played well on the defensive Bowser can seem like a wall, but with proper spacing and making sure to DI out of Flamebreathe when it catches you, you can see the holes in this fortress.

Overall Bowser can only match you on the ground. In the air he doesn't come close and Marth has superior edgeguarding as well.

Once you get him in the air he can down b so be prepared for that but he is still a big slow target so try to keep him up there. You don't want to let him have an easy time abusing his amazing defense.

Overall Bowser's defense and weight helps him out a great deal, but Marth has the tools to break through his defenses using superior speed, mobility and pressure.

60/40 Marth's advantage.

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Pierce7d said:

lol get ***** Steel. Sheller too good.

Uh, I haven't played Vex in a LONG frikken time (his Bowser is sick by the way, I'm legitly scared of it).

DO NOT shy away from your ftilt. It's SO easy to punish Dancing Blade, just shield. That being said, ftilt angled either straight or up will **** Marth's face if he approaches from the air. You need your ftilt. Marth's will not be ftilt heavy, because our Ftilt has pretty ugly after lag in comparison to other options we have on the ground. If you shield it, you can counter attack.

You also need to watch out for Nair. Marth really can't kill for his life. He MUST tipper to K.O. Bowser if your DI is any kind of decent. I might be able to gimp you, but it's really stupidly hard, and I'll either have to spike, or get you to 150%. That being said, Marth's NAIR is an excellent tool. I tend to attack Bowser's forehead with Nair, and pull away, to chip at his shield. The second time I do this consecutively, if I aimed it right, the second hit of the Nair WILL shield stab, and I'll tipper K.O. you.

Also, Boswer is a huge target, and Marth is awesome at juggling. Make sure your DI and Smash DI are TIGHT before entering this match-up, or I will combo you like it's Melee.

Your Fair is also very good. Just because ours is better doesn't mean don't use yours. A little Klaw Bouncing is good too, because it messes with Marth's spacing, and forces him to play more aggressively, which Bowser likes a lot. Both characters have a Dragon Punch, so be careful of getting K.O.ed by Dolphin Slash. You want to DI it UP. The most important thing is to not be hyper-predictable.

If you shield a Dancing Blade, I would advise instead of Fortressing everytime, shield drop dtilt sometimes. Bowser's dtilt is frikken strong, and unlike fortress, can go a long way to gimping Marth if he doesn't DI it right. Also, the DI for fortress and Dtilt are opposite, so a Marth expecting fortress and suddenly getting blasted by Dtilt can really get screwed up.

IIRC, your Uair is amazing. Bait an airdodge, and score hyper early K.O.s with this.

Don't fsmash at the edge. We have counter. Now, if you see a Marth about to counter, just charge the fsmash, and voila, homemade rapesauce. Don't charge prematurely though, or our counter is guaranteed. Dtilt is a lovely edgeguard option.

I love this match, because it really is the knight vs. the dragon. Merry Christmas everyone!

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MrEh said:

In my opinion, Bowser doesn't do that badly against Marth. In fact, I believe that Marth is his better matchups. That's not saying much though, since all of Bowser's matchups are usually not in his favor.


First of all, we all know that Bowser is a defensive wall. He is not a character that has a need to approach anyone, he's a character that reacts to what his opponent does and punishes their mistakes. Since Marth lacks a projectile, he is forced to approach, and that's when Bower's defensive game goes into full swing. If Marth's overly aggressive and are unfamiliar with the matchup, he will lose, simply because Bowser ***** anyone who's overly aggressive.

If Marth doesn't space his attacks properly, he'll be hit by a Fortress OoS, and that totally *****. If he spaces even more badly, he'll be met with a grab. As we all know, Bowser can do all sorts of stuff to Marth out of a grab. If Marth gets a ground release, you can grab him again or Klaw him, which is probably your best choice due to its large damage output. You can even Bowser Bomb him out of a grab release, which is even more deadly. Death at 85% is definately not cool for Marth. If he gets a jump release, then that's a free Fair for you.

Obviously, Bowser should spend as much time grounded as possible. You'll get ***** in the air.

Also, I like using the Fsmash as an edgeguard. It seems silly, but a lot of Marth users try to Fair through this. Even more so if they're planking. It's actually possible to hit a Marth who's grabbing the ledge with the Fsmash while outside of his Dolphin Slash range. It's awesome. (never going to happen, but I love it)

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Limit- said:

{Fox}
Ratio:{50:50/45:55}
Secondary:{Pikachu/Sheik?}
What to look out for: {DAir, Shine gimps, UTilt, USmash when approaching 120%}
How they will KO you: {Shine gimps, USmash, DSmash (at higher percents), BAir}
Best spacing zone: {FTilt/Klaw zone imo, Fox should just keep shooting so you have to get into his face.}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {Chaingrab + Klaw}
- For the KO: {FTilt}
Firebreath: {Use when possible, Fire is pretty useful}
Stages
- Strike: {FD?}
- Ban: {FD} I'm not really sure about Fox stages but I THINK Halberd is good too b/c of low ceilings but that's the same for us too...right...?
- Pick: {I'd personally run with YI or PS1}
Link to discussion: {...}

Alright, so Fox...uh, when the match is distanced, expect Fox to be shooting lasers until you approach. There's no real reason for him to come at you, even if you have the lead, because he can shoot and even it out. Laser's don't do any physical damage/hinder anything, so you have nothing to worry about. You're not facing Falco.

To deal with this, you can approach from the air and just go from there. If you feel like it.

When you do get to Fox, he can do a multitude of things. He can either FI to the other end of the stage and repeat the process, DAir, FAir, or reach out and grab you.

When dealing with DAir or FAir, it is IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPOOOOOOORRRRTANT that you SDI and get the **** out of there to minimize the damage you can receive and possibly punish the Fox.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I'll add more tomorrow, I have to go. I'm trying to model this similar to my D3/MK writeups. I know KingKong can add to this because he's played Guard/[NAKAT I think]. I've played LinkX and Rookie, that's really about it I guess...

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WOLF​

choice_brawler said:

Bowser vs Wolf is definitely a tough match for both sides.

Both of them are relatively heavy, with bowser being heavier but wolf having better kill options (dsmash ftw ^^). Bowser really does rule while he's on the ground, but wolf's prefer the air (even more so than falco) and just **** while they're there.

Wolf's lazor will make it so that if he doesnt feel safe to approach, you're gonna approach. I use it from time to time but for the most part its just for free %, i don't ever feel really threatened by approaching bowser. His range is really good but he just lacks the speed in the air which wolf has. Really my only worry when im approaching a bowser is that he gets off a grab on me somehow, possibly a rpg (reverse pivot grab) or somethin. Grabs are going to play a huge part in this match up because wolf's back and up throws put bowser in the air where he can be juggled, not to mention his dthrow doing good dmg and setting up good tech chasing opportunities. Dthrow to spike probably will not happen all too often unless the wolf is really greedy, i mean your up b has invincibility frames, and this guys gonna spike you out of it? im so sure!
Bowser's grabs on the other hand mean grab release, and there are a few nasty one's on wolf =/. I heard grab release to bowser sit works but i've luckily never experienced it. I've gotten all sorts of other grab releases done on me though and that sucks. Grabbing a wolf will let you get early kills, or at least earlier kills than normal, which is nice. So i guess like in short terms:
-lazors = wolf can force bowser to approach
-grabs4wolf = rack up %
-grabs4bowser = earlier kills

JayDeth said that wolf loses out to firebreath, thats kinda true. Firebreath means that wolf needs to use his up b to recover, wolf up b goes through firebreath. So it does gimp wolf somewhat, and you still cant hit wolf while he's in his up b (im not positive what the criteria is for that, i just know that i've been hit a few times). If nothing else, you can get in some free % if they sideB or maybe get a lot of % if they just panic and dont know what to do. But i mean, top notch wolf wont have too much trouble with it i feel. For wolf, recovering with sideB almost becomes habitual. As to the fail'd scarring that that wolf you were playing against did JayDeth (or at least i think he was trying to scar) that should not happen. I have been gimpyfish combo'd after scarring, but i learned my lesson. You can set yourself up so that the wolf is baited into scarring and then just shield and punish, but a smart wolf wont fall for this.

Since wolf is going to be trying to fight you in the air, it wouldn't be a bad idea to fight back with well spaced fairs. I really am curious what i would do if i was on the other side of the match up, playing bowser and being on the receiving end of a ton of lagless fairs and bairs. I'd imagine if you up b oos once a bair connects you could probably hit wolf, and i really doubt thats what you'll be using to kill so no reason to save it. Bowser's ftilt is really big too, and that will be another one of your punishing moves in this match up as long with a great way to space yourself. Be sure not to just keep backing up, i know as a wolf player i love it when my opponent has their back to the edge. Their DI gets so predictable, juggling is tons easier and my dsmash kills earlier now. A roll will be punished with a smash or a grab so yea just dont get yourself in that situation. On the other hand, getting wolf into a corner is great for you. He can't really retreat all that far when he is fairing and bairing anymore, and he'll probably try to jump over you honestly, so take advantage of that. Lay down the pressure with jabs, tilts, sideB and even firebreath. That wolf will either get messed up or try to jump over you and get punished.

Match up overall is 50-50. When a wolf is juggling you, try to go for the bowser sit to the ledge or however you bowser's get down. I really shouldn't be giving the bowser technique advices, but i'd imagine that works well, correct me if im wrong so no bowsers do so.

And in reference to best bowser in norcal. I'd put my money on Ein over hypethug personally. I've mm'd hypethug and for the most part it was a lot of up b oos and grab releases. After a while he got predictable. I feel Ein is more original with his tactics and also just has been more tourney active recently. Last time i saw hypethug at a tourney was like in december or something.

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Phiddlesticks said:

Ness has a projectile that's even more annoying than Lucas'. It's called PK Thunder.

Ness' fair is very hard to punish when spaced correctly (similar to G&W's). His bair is also a surprisingly strong kill move and is easier to sweetspot against Bowser due to his size. His nair is super quick and has a really long hitbox, his upair can kill as well, and of course, his dair is a strong meteor smash. Basically, his air game is much better than Bowser's (but I'm sure this goes without saying).

Ness also has a good grab game. His bthrow is a reliable kill move and can kill somewhere around the 130s I think (I forget when it kills exactly), and his fthrow's set knockback is handy for sending Bowser off the stage for edgeguarding attempts. Ness' upthrow sends Bowser in prime position for either aerial or PK Thunder juggling. Like always, Bowser's most reliable option is to downb to the ledge, but remember that Bowser Bomb doesn't go through the tail of PK Thunder. Ness also has like one of the best dash grabs in the game, so watch out.

Make sure to edgeguard Ness using Firebreath. Just use enough so that it hits him out of his double jump, then grab the ledge so that Ness is either edgehogged or forced to PK Thunder 2 to the stage, where you can ideally punish his ending lag with a smash or something. Note that his recovery is harder to edgeguard than in melee since he can now guard himself with a fair while double jumping.

Don't get hit by PK Thunder 2 or you will be dead at like 30% or something. PK Fire is overrated and can be stopped by (power)shielding.

I think the matchup is slightly in Ness' favour, like 55-45 or 60-40 or something.

Just know that Ness is a much better character than Lucas overall, despite what the SBR tier list says. Either way though, they really shouldn't be compared as characters since the only similar moves they have are their specials and like fsmash

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SHEIK​

Ixisnaugus said:

It is difficult for Sheik to defeat Bowser on the ground. Relying on FTilt for everything will not work, though if the opportunity arises Sheik's should take full advantage. Surprise single needles (and the move in general) works moderately well against Bowser, but good Bowser players know how to use the shield to its fullest and will just powershield their way through the onslaught, so camping wont last long. The chain works well at times from a distance (no seriously) so you should pull it out from time to time. If you insist on trying your luck with ground combo's, try and get in a grab as quick as possible otherwise you will get fortressed... in fact regardless of anything you'll end up getting fortressed, also don't think you can keep sponging that move, it is very capable of killing. Bowser's far easier to deal with in the air, and a few of Sheik's aerials are pretty quick, good for keeping the pressure on; though Bowser isn't as much of a slouch in the air as some like to believe, watch out for his surprisingly long lasting Nair and Dair. I have no clue how Sheik is supposed to KO Bowser, i suggest switching to Zelda but for pure Sheik's i can only suggest using whatever your desired KO move is. Off edge, try and keep Bowser off, recovering is more or less all he can concentrate on, i say try and bully him off with Bair's, do not boldly jump out and try to fair like you're at 0 risk of anything, because a good Bowser will time a lovely SideB which will eat through your attack and possibly cause a Bowsercide, something you do not want happening, remember that you have slight control over the moves trajectory, so if you do get grabbed, DI toward the stage to avoid the inconvenient cide.

Take Bowser to compact stages, Smashville is probably a good one. Keep away from FD at all costs, you may want to stay away from Battlefield and YI too.

As for defending against Bowser, watch out for... well, everything really. Bowser's first jab is a god send, most Bowser's don't do it but he can cancel that first jab into almost any other move, FTilt, DTilt, UpB, SideB, grab, just don't let Bowser hit you, only come in close when the opportunity is visible, otherwise like i said earlier, you'll just get fortressed or shield grabbed. Oh and speaking of grabs, Bowser has a grab release chain grab on Sheik, it's far more dangerous than you might expect, Bowser racks up damage like a god **** express train. You don't have the range to take on cautious Bowser's who know how to space, in this situation resort to more needling to force approaches or your chain. I'm dead serious, don't think you can trade blows with Bowser and come out on top, and Bowser has quite a few methods of killing, he is not relegated to forward smashes like some idiots believe, and on the note of smash attacks, watch out for Bowser's USmash as it's surprisingly quick, and his FSmash has disjointed hitboxes that can catch you on the ledge, also keep in mind that you can DI out of his DSmash (and flame breath), don't sit there getting skewered by the move, smack those control sticks and get out of there.

Not sure what else i can add to help you Sheikah right now. To be forward, Sheik is not at the advantage here... far from it infact. I'd say 40:60 Bowser... 45:55 best. I may come back and explain myself further...

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Ixisnaugus said:

Ok well, I'm back and ready to explain further

I hope nobody got a bad impression from my previous post, but i do feel that Bowser is at the overall advantage against Sheik, even if it isn't a huge advantage. You see, Bowser has an amazing ground game, good Bowser's with great shielding abilities coupled with nice jab canceling skills, good spacing and the Fortress makes for a surprisingly tough fight for Sheik's. Her moves are fast and FTilt is pretty deadly, but it's not as easy to pull off as one might assume, especially since Bowser can Fortress at almost any time when things get a little too heated. Flame Breath also has a lot of range and throws people off their game a bit, although it does have a bad amount of startup and ending lag which can both be punished.

Before i continue i think it's best i say now that it has been a month or two since i last played a very good Sheik player, so i'm not too familiar with any newer techs Sheikah's may have picked up.

Anyway... Bowser's options on the ground all have a good amount of range and the speedy first Jab is more or less the ultimate setup. The options Bowser has after that first jab is incredible, but usually attempting a grab is the most common option when Sheik is at low percentages, usually to attempt the chaingrab to rack up a fair bit of damage; there's little need to fear jab cancel to forward tilt at lower percentages but it'll become a pain later on, also watch out for canceled DTilt's, it's slower than FTilt but hits twice and deals more damage. I'll also mention the Klaw here (SideB), it can be used after the first jab and is dishes out a lot of damage, the knockback can be DI'd and it shouldn't be KO-ing you before 150%ish, it's deceptive range and grab armor allow it to eat through all of Sheiks attacks.

As i said earlier though, it's mostly a range problem vs Bowser. Sheiks ground moves are fast but they lack the range to catch cautious Bowser's trying to get that swipe (or maybe Fair), and getting in too close may not always be the wisest choice as their is the risk of getting Fortressed. On that note I'll explain a little bit more about the Fortress; you're probably aware of the move as it pretty much defines this character, I'll go a bit deeper on how its utilized though. It's an almost universal move that can be the answer in almost any situation, this is because it does decent knockback, nice amount of damage, comes out in the blink of an eye and has gargantuan amounts of priority; Bowser's will use this to get you out of their face, and it will work. I could be wrong but i'm going to assume that it out prioritizes or clanks with every move Sheik has, don't do a clank battle with the Fortress because you wont win, after a clank Bowser will mostly likely spin again, so shield (and grab). Once Sheik can get a combo going on Bowser, if She does not get him in the air as soon as possible, it is only a matter of time before the Fortress reveals itself, and it is pretty frustrating when it does.

Then there's the KO thing. Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't believe any of Sheik's throws have good KO potential. As I've mentioned many times, good Bowser's know how to use their shield, so grabbing a KO wont be as simple as you might think. I'm not saying Sheik can't KO, just that it's a little more difficult to take down Bowser, although gimping is still a viable option.

Once again, i have ran out of time to explain. I shall return at a later date to provide more of an explanation.

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Ixisnaugus said:

Dcold. Sheik is not at the overall advantage, seriously. Bowser's only real fear is the FTilt lock, which works on Bowser just like every other character, BUT landing it on good Bowser's is not a straightforward task all things considered; that's not to say the FTilt lock is the only thing that works on Bowser, he is very capable of being combo'd and juggled if he is not careful. Good Bowser's though, are well aware of the threat the FTilt lock poses, so playing extra cautious to keep Sheik away is only natural for Bowser's during this matchup. Bowser's will keep a reasonable distance and deal with Sheik from there and don't think Bowser's can't hurt you when he is not at grab range: Klaw hopped aerials (preferably Fair's) and specials (Flame Breath is most common), spaced Fair's, grounded Klaw's (unlikely), DTilt, directed FTilt's, Flame Breath, these are all more than enough to keep Sheik at bay and she really doesn't have any rock solid methods of getting in there, well timed SH aerials or a dash attack could work, but they're risky and if shielded/powershielded she is prone to getting grabbed or Fortressed, both being very effective methods of dealing damage, knocking back and getting breathing space. These moves all deal hellish amounts of damage and have frightening KO potential on some of the lighter characters, from about 90% onwards Sheik is at risk of being KO'd by many of these attacks, you cannot sponge them for extended periods of time.

I'm not saying Sheik is at some huge disadvantage, she has the ability to combo the hell out of Bowser if she can catch him off guard and punish mistakes efficiently, but breaking through the castle that is Bowser is no simple feat, especially considering that Bowser does have an answer to Sheik's common options while Sheik has no surefire method of piercing Bowser's defenses and getting the combo's going. Also, don't underestimate the Fortress, it is a deadly attack and will make you think twice before jumping right into Bowser like some bold fool. KO-ing Bowser is tough because of his weight, gimping his recovery is an option but don't be fooled, it's not something that'll happen every stock; the recovery, though predictable as it may be, can cut through most aerials if the right hitboxes connect, if you want to easily gimp it you'll have to hit the sides or underneath and Bowser's like to cover that weakness as best as they can, of course this does make edgeguarding a brighter possibility, though that does depend a little on the stage.

40:60 in Bowser's favor is a realistic conclusion, but 45:55 is almost just as reasonable; in fact you know what, the former is probably too harsh, but the latter may be a bit too inaccurate, it's still closer to 40:60 though. Dcold, this doesn't mean Bowser is a counterpick, just that the matchup can be tough if you don't have enough knowledge or don't know what you're doing.

@ less than 3. Ok no, You have written off Bowser's entire metagame. If you seriously believe Bowser has no approach options on Sheik you are sorely mistaken.

First I'll address your claim that Bowser has no viable approaches. Are you unaware of Bowser's entire movepool? Please read my entire post again, it's not a rare scene that a Bowser will powershield his way through needles and get within jab range, then there's Fair and Flame Breath and Fortress. You may not believe it but these are all simple, viable methods of reaching and damaging. You cannot just say "get Bowser in the air and its all hunky dory", Keeping him in the air isn't as simple as you might think, and don't for a second think that his DownB is the only means of reaching the floor because it's totally unsafe and good Bowser's wont do the predictable.

You can tell Sheik's to stay out of grab range but that's a lot easier said than done, Sheik cannot cause problems for Bowser without being dangerously close and at risk of getting grabbed and Fortressed. Speed is of little issue here, Bowser has one of the best jabs in the game and one jab is all it takes for a setup. Sheik's shouldn't be aggressive, they should be cautious, obviously, but if you think Bowser has no way of approaching Sheik but in a reversed situation it's the complete opposite then you clearly know nothing about Bowser. Don't act like the needles completely ruin Bowser, powershielding works fine and so does jumping over it.Also, explain how Bowser is so crazy easy to gimp, and exactly how Sheik is supposed to get him into such a position without taking serious risks and damage herself. You don't seem to know much about this matchup and appear to be just theorizing. Bowser is a hell of a lot more versatile than you say; You're simply underestimating his abilities which is just as well because that's what everybody else does.

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KingKong_ad said:

With Vex Im probably the best in this match up. I played a lot holynightmare and he is also the only one who gives me trouble. At the apex I went (where the japanese went) I played chibo a couple of games and didnt have a lot of prob to beat him each time. As limit said, bowser doesnt have trouble past the projectiles, we just need to walk and jump. If the rob spaces well with ftilt and dtilt, bowser has to do a single breath of fire and fsmash to attack him. (need to mix up tough). After we can mix up with our side B to come in close range since rob has no choice to approach or camp in mid range. If rob go camp in the ledge, bowser has no prob either. Bowser has to be just away of the fair while rob on the ledge. Bowser has to be patient and waiting. If rob jump gyro or laser. Shield drop dash attack is usefull.

Yeah rob can gimp bowser. But if bowser keep his jump while beeing faired out of stage its ok. Sometimes bowser has to recover from above to avoid beeing gimp even if bowser will bepunished ( better getting punished then dair......)

The best part, rob can be killed offstage easily too.
If rob tries to recover from below, he is in trouble due to our uair, nair, usmash and utilt
If he tries to recover to the ledge, bowser has to wait rob using his upb, rob cannot airdodge while upbing if he doesnt do an aerial before. So as a bowser, u wait he does his upb and with our great aerial speed just go reach rob and fair him. The worst u can get is faired ou naired( but can see it coming so just reatreat) If the rob respond to ur approach just returned to the ledge with upb and since he will be mostly below u cuz he had to use an aerial u can try to attack him with a bair.

It doesnt work all the times, but bowser has the tool to pressure rob offstage and upb can sometimes get a gimp doing that.

There is a lot much in this match up but im too lazy as much of u know.....

Sorry for my terrible english

My ratio is 50/50 ( but eh im known to be generous with bowser even if I really think it)

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Zigsta said:

I haven't played too many Kirby players, but I've never found the MU to be too difficult.

Kirby doesn't have much range and is forced to get in close to deal damage to Bowser. Bowser has no problem just waiting and punishing Kirby's mistakes.

Kirby has his fthrow combo on Bowser, but with proper SDI, I've only been hit by one upair following the fthrow.

A good Kirby could definitely benefit from sucking up Bowser's Fire Breath. With our large body, it's more difficult for us to SDI out of the fire than it is for Kirby to SDI out of our fire.

Fortunately for Kirby, Bowser doesn't have many GR options on him. Bowser has a guaranteed fair out of air release on Kirby, and that's it. Now if the Kirby mashes out while being pummeled, we can regrab, Klaw, jab, and ftilt.

Kirby absolutely wrecks Bowser offstage, so Bowser will try his hardest to stay onstage as much as possible.

This MU really boils down to being a very patient MU for both sides.

60:40 in Kirby's favor...maybe 55:45.

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ZELDA​

LUIGI​

LINK​

CAPTAIN FALCON​

GANONDORF​

DLA said:

Bowser/Ganon is even. If you ask me, Ganon actually wins by a tiny bit, though some Ganons will disagree with me.

Lol @ Limit... you know all the boards say the same thing about your character when it's time to discuss the Bowser matchup right?



Basically Bowser aint got **** on Ganon except for side B. Bowser's side B is very strong against Ganon because Ganon doesn't have good OoS options, so he'll tend to stand around in his shield a lot, which makes it easy for Bowser to side B his shield instead of hitting it with an aerial.

Bowser's flamethrower actually isn't great against Ganon. In fact if Ganon gets caught in it, it is easy for him to sDI up to Bowser and Uair him, which will usually result in Bowser taking more damage than Ganon. This is 09 ****.

Other than that... Bowser's spacing against Ganon is nothing special. Ganon can space just as well. Not to mention Bowser has a hard time landing against Ganon. Expect to get Side B'd a lot on your landings if you're fighting a good Ganon. Wizkick is also good against Bowser if he's dumb enough to try to space with retreating Fair.


Onstage Bowser wins by a bit due solely to his side B (though fortress OoS also helps). However Ganon absolutely ****s on Bowser offstage. It is really really easy for Ganon to edgeguard Bowser with reverse Uair. If bowser gets hit by this once then he's dead. Hell it's even really easy for Ganon to Dair spike him. Can't say that about a lot of characters.


Some of you might disagree with me but I'm willing to bet I have more good Bowser exp than you have good Ganon exp. Feel free to disagree with me though, I want to hear what you guys have to say.

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Vermanubis said:

When it comes to Bowser, I'd be comfortable saying Bowser has the slight advantage. KingKong is the undisputed best Bowser (or was, but no longer is only by virtue of retirement) and Limit's a close second, and I've played both. I've played both sides of the fence. I've played Bowsers who were talented, but not professional Bowser players (not gonna namedrop), and professional Bowsers like KK and Limit. Inexperience with the MU belies the reality of it, which, in my opinion, is marginally advantageous for Bowser.

That being said, on the offensive, Bowser loses. On the defense, however, Bowser can keep Ganon out and he does win. People like KK who know how to turtle (lol) as Bowser and keep a fortress (puns) up actually make it surprisingly hard for Ganon to get in. Like Ganon, Bowser has ways to become more agile, and I've seldom seen people maximize that potential, but when I did see it, he was both difficult to reach and difficult to punish.

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JIGGLYPUFF​

Limit- said:

Yeah, I'm on the page with Zigsta on this one. I think this is definitely -2.

Bowser obviously excels on the ground in comparison to Jigglypuff, that's a given. Jigglypuff has the ability to juggle Bowser pretty decently I guess, but Bowser's FAir and NAir serve as a good "combo" breaker in between her attacks. That being said, getting Bowser in the air will probably be the most difficult thing you can try to do if you're not using pound.

Seriously. Use Pound, because it'll be much better pressure than any of your aerials, especially against a shield camping Bowser. Bowser can just swat her away with FTilt ordinarily, but with pound I think we trade at the worst or something like that. Pound also eats Bowser's shield up, and it always forces us to angle it at some stupid way so we don't get poked terribly.

I think FD is a contender for Bowser's best option because of the amount of room we have on that stage. First of all, there are no platforms, so we are at risk of removing one of Bowser's best abilities (command grab > all of Jigglypuff's options when you're above us on a platform).

Aside from that, the glaring problem is the grab releases, and you're not as difficult to grab as say...Wario, or something. Retreating aerials or Pound can do a bit of work, but a grounded Bowser is such a menace to Jigglypuff lmao. We kill you at like 60 flat with UAir, which isn't that difficult to set up or do. On a ground release, we have the basic jab and FTilt I believe.

For that issue with the Finnish Bowser, I have a feeling that Jigglypuff can just DI into Bowser when he jabs, and then use rest before he FTilts you, because FTilt isn't super fast..it just gets the job done really nicely imo. I could be wrong, I just feel like jab-cancelling is so heavily flawed out of a grab release unless RCO lag is involved or the Bowser player is reading your bad habits or something.

And a small note, if you get Bowser offstage, of course, take advantage of that and try to gimp him to the best of your ability. But, what happens if Bowser just stays put in the center of the stage? It takes a lot of work to get Bowser to the edge at that point, especially because Jigglypuff does like...nothing at lower percents. lol

From the way I see it, Jigglypuff just has to play a weaving game and rely on hard frametraps or occasional gimps to kill us or get us to kill percents. For Bowser, all we have to do is land 4 moves or 4 Klaws and just get you with a hard attack or GR => UAir, and it's over. :/

Stage wise, I personally would CP FD, because of what I listed earlier and the argument about being in the center of the stage. I don't know what I would counterpick as Jigglypuff, because BF would save you from the UAir release (maybe? I forget how far up Jigglypuff goes--if she goes above the top platform, then she's safe. Otherwise...), but the problem with CPing us to BF is that it's our best stage as well. I'm sure Jigglypuff has some nasty stuff on BF anyway lol

edit: Jay, no Jigglypuff should be getting away with a rollout lol, that's the easiest move to react to. And if your reaction time is bad, just shield and UpB on reaction, or Klawhop over it.

I did get ****ed by a frametrap before off of a rollout ;=;

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Zigsta said:

Yeah, jab canceling out of GR is only used if the Bowser is punishing bad habits and/or is having trouble buffering ftilt out of GR. Jiggs players should note, though, that our most damaging option after a grab release is air release>Klaw.

Like Limit said, Bowser just plays in the middle of the stage. I've played this MU a lot on both sides, but I doubt I have any videos of me playing the MU seriously. XD All my recorded games are friendlies, and I generally don't play MUs where Bowser's best at just standing there properly in friendlies just because people tend to get upset. :/ You'll definitely see me nairing Jigglypuff as a GTFO move. Our airdodge is booty, so I usually just nair instead. It trades hits often, and a Jigglypuff trading hits with a Bowser is a losing Jigglypuff.

I'd definitely take Jiggs to FD. You have nowhere to run.

It's also notable that jab>grab is true on Jiggs. So if you're at 50% and get jabbed, expect to get GR upair'd.

As Jiggs, you need to play this very, very patiently. Don't ever dair Bowser onstage. Bowsers typically recover low--Fortress has more verical recovery than most people think. If Bowser mixes it up by recovering Hugh (a last ditch effort), bear in mind that if he lands before Fortress totally ends, he doesn't have much lag. It's similar to DK's landing but has a slight touch more lag. Just something to bear in mind.

Be careful Rollouting Bowser. You don't wanna get pivot grabbed. Those of you who do use Rollout, though, know how to use it safely.

Jigglypuff mains rarely sit in their shield, but it's even more important in this MU. It's just asking to get Klawed. Klaw fresh does a whopping 18% and 13% stale, which is still solid. Klaw damage really adds up and beats out literally all of your moves.

Don't spotdodge. I'll fsmash you.

That said, I've seen Sing do SUPER janky things to my fsmash. I've literally used fsmash on a Singing Jiggs only to go sliding completely across the stage and fall asleep. :0

Bear in mind also that upair is a frametrap. You AD the upair, we get fair/nair/bair for free.

That's everything I can think to add after Limit's post.

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