Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #22: Zero Suit Samus

ZSS uses Side-B to space. It hits twice, so don't let your shield go after the first hit.
Her Uair kills. Her Fsmash sucks.
Her Dsmash/plasma gun sets up for things.
Usmash stops Dair.
She can "jab lock" with her Ftilt. So don't be stupid, so always tech when you land.
She has a pretty good recovery, just learn to tether hog though and you'll be fine.

Idk. More later maybe.

That Pikachu in the picture looks pissed...

I'm alittle sleepy so heres my tried thoughts

get her off stage far enough so her downb and her second jump doesn't save her...
she should be dead...

BUT LOOK OUT have invinciblity frames, her ******** upb is better than olimars it'll pull you down with her >.>...

Her downb has a spike the kick so becareful...

She has 3 spikes well I think ones a semi spike...
but her downb and dair spike
dont think you'll see dair too much...
I think upb is her semi-spike
might just be a spike...
but her down smash a neutral b are her main setup's I believe...

...thats erm about all I kno...

Sleep or awake ZSS is always sexy tho <3

well thats all for to night...

Not much experience on this matchup.
She can chain with Her Down smash and Up B, though I'm not sure to what percent, nor if it works on all characters.

Down B is her most common recovery, and also a deadly spike, Up B used when necessary. If an Up B is forced, Tether hog it, or you'll go down with her.

Down smash and neutral B will stun you and set you up for kills, neutral B is a projectile, while Dsmash is a close range attack, Down smash's stun lasts longer i believe.

As Sasuke said, Side B is used to space and is deadly on the second hit.

From what i've seen, Dthrow is most used and will usually be followed up with a Fair.

Her F-smash doesn't kill well, most kills will come from Uairs and Side Bs. Though you won't see much of it, her Down B can kill fairly well.

Since the idea here is not to be stunned by her attacks, keeping your distance at high percents is very wise here (thought it always is)

Projectiles are your friend. I don't use zair quite as much in this matchup, it seems to be punished more so than usual, unless perfectly spaced.

She has the ability to rack up damage pretty quickly, So save your U-smash and kill at the earliest percent you can, not a fight you want to drag out.

Most of your kills will come from tether hogs and U-smashes, other smashes are far too punishable for this matchup.

Basic U-tilt and bair combos when you can get them in.

Thats about all I got.

You mean edgehugg it?

If you tether hog you wont get invinciblity frames...and will go down with her.

No bigge tho ^.^

iRjOn said:

You mean edgehugg it?

If you tether hog you wont get invinciblity frames...and will go down with her.

No bigge tho ^.^

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When you release, re grab, and Z again for invincibilty frames, I forget what its called some times xD

Stuff to watch out for:
Her Side B is practically a Zair that kills, it's spammed often for spacing and replaces the Fsmash since it's faster, deals more damage(Fsmash 11% Side B 16%) and can be used out of a SH.

Spikes. Her Down B is in the top 10 best spikes. The initial spike frames are right at the start and at the tip of her foot, after that the sex kick will just knock you sideways (but that can still kill you)
The UpB spike is tricky. Usually used when your too high to use the Down B spike. If the tip of the UpB at it's highest point hits, you'll be pulled down and flung downwards to your doom. Expect UpB not only offstage but on stage as it strings to DownB combos and such.

Dont underestimate ZSS recovery. ZSS has many options that keeps TLs guessing, She has her air jump, DownB jump (with inbuilt sex kick and wall jump) and the option of either recovering with plasma whip vertically or horizontally. Trying to gimp may prove fatal with the Down B jump spike.
ZSS can do this thing where she does a sorta footstool mid way through the DownB, apparently it adds something like 20% to the jump or plasma whip (I 4get which one)

Careful of ZSS DownB Stun Mindgames. Some ZSS will charge the DownB thus baiting you and throwing you off. Usmash will stop our Dairs, not that TLs should be Dairing alot anyways =D

Uair kills and Bair are killers. Fair can kill but has less knockback then Bair and usually used for damage as it hits 17% if both hits connect (quite alot for an aerial). Dont expect to see Dair ever, too much landing lagg and overall not worth it.

ZSS ground game is very good. The Jab comes out in 1 frame and can be canceled to a Tilt usually Dtilt so as to get us in the air and follow up with Fair/Uair juggling. Tilts can lock and Dash attack is great, usually followed up with Dtilt/Utilt.

Her SH is too high to hit us with any aerials. Yay!

Camp and Spam, ZSS stun gun is slow and has poor range. Zair wont be as useful in this matchup. ZSS is lighter then TL (I think) so save your Usmash for the kill, you can expect to start killing with Usmash at like 100-110% and obviosuly edgehog.
ZSS will either in midrange attacking with space sideB and hit and run after stun or full agreesive, using her speed.

I don't really know.
Except when I play TLMS@nt on WiFi.
This means
I hate side b.
Usually he (TLMS) jumps, and then at the end of the jump uses side b. As long as he kept using it on the ground, I thought the best thing to do would be to throw a boomerang in the air, and stay in the air.
I think ZSS also has this thing where she does a super footstool after down b.

Oh yeah I hate the pieces too. They're too fast and powerful.
stay out of trajectory.

just remembered thanx to Alzi
Her Glide Toss is nasty good!
she says screw your projectile wall I'm in your face with a down smash!

that is all atm...
Imma start using Zamus <3 so sexy...

Honestly, edgehogging a ZSS is harder than you think. Most of us are able to use the second-jump/up-B (like a super jump) then down B to recover from practically anywhere.
Also, as mentioned, we have 2 recovery spikes.
Side-B or an aerial will be used as the kill move (not dair lol, don't expect one the entire match)
On your first stock, expect a barrage of parts (probably glide-tossed into another move).


I really dont have any experience against TL, so...good luck. Just saying general stuff.

McDingus said:

Stuff to watch out for:
The UpB spike is tricky. Usually used when your too high to use the Down B spike. If the tip of the UpB at it's highest point hits, you'll be pulled down and flung downwards to your doom. Expect UpB not only offstage but on stage as it strings to DownB combos and such.
up-B will spike as the whip is rising as well and it is stronger when the tip is rising. Up-B does not combo into downsmash because you can tech the hit but it does combo into jabs, tilts, or a dash attack. if you fail to tech however you will be punished by downsmash.

Dont underestimate ZSS recovery. ZSS has many options that keeps TLs guessing, She has her air jump, DownB jump (with inbuilt sex kick and wall jump) and the option of either recovering with plasma whip vertically or horizontally. Trying to gimp may prove fatal with the Down B jump spike.
ZSS can do this thing where she does a sorta footstool mid way through the DownB, apparently it adds something like 20% to the jump or plasma whip (I 4get which one)
The flipstool (down-B footstool) will send you further than a normal footstool (almost the entire length of FD) and you can footstool just about any physical object (swords, bombs, arrows). Down-B also is invincible for the first 12 frames.
Plasma wire (up-B) also have a special recovery property: it boosts the height of normal jumps, even footstool and flipstool jumps. By using it right after the jump button is pressed you can get a ~33% boost to her jump height.

Uair kills and Bair are killers. Fair can kill but has less knockback then Bair and usually used for damage as it hits 17% if both hits connect (quite alot for an aerial). Don't expect to see Dair ever, too much landing lagg and overall not worth it.
If you aren't careful, down-B and side-B will both kill as well. these are easier to avoid though unless we get you in a stun. Against a competent ZSS, a stun above 120% should be a guaranteed death.

ZSS ground game is very good. The Jab comes out in 1 frame and can be canceled to a Tilt usually Dtilt so as to get us in the air and follow up with Fair/Uair juggling. Tilts can lock and Dash attack is great, usually followed up with Dtilt/Utilt.
Dash attack will often be followed with a jab, especially at low percents. OOS utilt and SH uair are things to watch for as well.

Her SH is too high to hit us with any aerials. Yay!
She can hit you with a rising uair (comes out in 4 frames) or more likely you will be attacked with the tip of a SH falling bair which has good range, priority and kill potential

ZSS is lighter then TL (I think)
Yep

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Overall that was a good summary and showed that you have a good understanding of ZSS even if you don't main her. I fixed up any small errors I found and added some information that you were lacking.

Alzi said:

Stand still at the start of the match and wait until she throws her body suit pieces at you and it will just hit your shield.

Thats usually the the first thing they do.

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Not necessarily, ZSS would most likly glide-toss to grab, after the first piece hits your shield.

Adapt said:

Overall that was a good summary and showed that you have a good understanding of ZSS even if you don't main her. I fixed up any small errors I found and added some information that you were lacking.

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Thanx Adapt, yea it was a bit dodgy, typed it in a rush

Has this match-up like...never been done before? This is a very empty discussion.

I guess all the ZSS players are enjoying their break THOROUGHLY. <__<

...Should the CP be Rainbow Cruise or Corneria? Anything else? I'm pretty sure ZSS and TL go even on FD.

I'll see if Snakeeee can come and help out...

Having faced one or two TLs, I think the match-up is even. TL is easily better at controlling space, but hasn't the tools to do much more than that against ZSS, at least not easily. Fortunately for TL, ZSS can do little but break through his spam occasionally. Both are too light and floaty to really suffer extensive comboing, and both get KO'd fairly early. ZSS builds damage a bit easier than TL, but TL dies later than ZSS. All in all, everything balances out.

For TL's part, I personally get thrown off most often by the boomerang. This can be used to cover the space in which ZSS will be approaching with Plasma Whip, although be careful for grounded approaches. Throwing bombs straight up can also be useful for passively controlling space, and is good if you can space them properly for ZSS's range, because it will make it harder for her to follow up.

You're probably going to have to do some work edgeguarding. TL's best tools for gimping ZSS are hard to pull off, because they're telegraphed, and require him to close the gap, which is dangerous even when ZSS is recovering. ZSS has a somewhat easier time against a recovering TL than most would, but TL is certainly one of the harder characters for her to edgeguard, IMO.

Like I said, both characters have a lot of advantages over the other, but they really balance out, the way I see it.

sorry TLers, I haven't played one yet ):

I can only fix up some general knowledge and theorycraft, and it looks like Adapt already took care of that. It's not that we don't want to help, it's that this match-up is pretty rare ):

I guess it's okay.

I mean it's two underused characters versus each other so I understand.

You guys are pretty chill, thanks for all the help.

Anyone object to me giving us another even match-up? =)

Since when do you use words like "chill"?

Since evah gosh chill Sasuke

lol
I'm down VG

iRjOn said:

I'll see if Snakeeee can come and help out...

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Me and Snakee played once in tourney and a few friendlies....other than that we both dont know what to do vs each other >.> but if you must know we both very defensive.

VietGeek said:

Has this match-up like...never been done before? This is a very empty discussion.

I guess all the ZSS players are enjoying their break THOROUGHLY. <__<

...Should the CP be Rainbow Cruise or Corneria? Anything else? I'm pretty sure ZSS and TL go even on FD.

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Uhm, maybe not on-topic, but plataforms helps a LOT in this matchup, they help you to avoid Dsmash, Dsmash + UpB chains. Plus your bombs can dmg thru them. Uair helps a lot in this matchup I think, the more platforms, the better (Not horizontal plataforms works well too), Norfair and Lyat could be top choices IMO . You can handle rang in different directions, bombs too, and arrows kind of. But ZSS's NeutralB can only go horizontal ¿Am I right?.

First post, but I've been reading this TL forum for several months ñ_n. Sorry if there's any english mistakes, I'm latin .

Think of it.....
like a game of keep away =)

Erm Platforms make this match up in Zamus's favor >.>
cause they are her best stages
:D


Got any more info Lobos?

Don't underestimate ZSS' whip range and TL items can punish ZSS if she plays at long range.

Honestly, I think Toon Link's zoning abilities, coupled with the telegraphed kill moves of ZSS, mean that this match-up should be reopened. In all my experience with ZSS, Toon Link is able to easily avoid her kill strikes, giving us the edge in survivability. Side B is incredibly devestating, but is also projected by the swing of her arm, allowing us to shield or otherwise dodge. Toon is a master of controlling the long and mid range areas, and our close game will stop ZSS's approaches and setups. The Uair kill is obvious as well. If you're over the stage, Dair. If you're off the stage, airdodge and Nair. I believe that Toon has the advantage in this match-up. 60-40 Toon, or 55-45. Not even, though.

rebd121 said:

Honestly, I think Toon Link's zoning abilities, coupled with the telegraphed kill moves of ZSS, mean that this match-up should be reopened. In all my experience with ZSS, Toon Link is able to easily avoid her kill strikes, giving us the edge in survivability. Side B is incredibly devestating, but is also projected by the swing of her arm, allowing us to shield or otherwise dodge. Toon is a master of controlling the long and mid range areas, and our close game will stop ZSS's approaches and setups. The Uair kill is obvious as well. If you're over the stage, Dair. If you're off the stage, airdodge and Nair. I believe that Toon has the advantage in this match-up. 60-40 Toon, or 55-45. Not even, though.

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55:45 is basically even...
:\

Toon Link's zoning sux we aren't Marth
XD

Toon Link doesn't stop her close range her jab combo is fast as our bair.
Her dsmash and laser pwn short to mid range stopping ALL our approaches.
We out camp her but her speed and jump height counter that
Toon Link cant really bother her long range cause of her speed.
Its probally not 60:40 Toon Link.
Probally 45:55 Zamus.
:\

^ Yeah.

And her jab is like 1-2 frames. FASTER than bair (since bair counts w/ 4 frames of jump too).

VietGeek said:

^ Yeah.

And her jab is like 1-2 frames. FASTER than bair (since bair counts w/ 4 frames of jump too).

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I got pwnt

it feels funny...

Hmm... perhaps you're right. Maybe I just play really bad ZSS's. I eat them for breakfast.

When Edgehogging from ZSS's Up-B you should do it more then once since ZSS is one of the few characters with a constant Up-B in the air (meaning she can use it more then once, when I first versed a ZSS user I died because of it D= )

Please don't bump 5 month old threads. -_-
Read the warning at the bottom.