Reverse Pivot Grabbing (An idea to improve Ganon's Grab)

Gleam · Dec 23, 2008

Reverse Pivot Grabbing
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A reverse Pivot Grab. It's done by pressing the back along stick into a dash and then pressing forward grab. If quickly and simultaneously Ganon will be able to grab forward, remain the same distance from his opponent and increase his grab range by a good amount. It's quicker than a regular dash grab, and with less cool down lag, though not too much.

Ray Kalm has brought forth another way to Reverse Pivot Grab without the backwards momentum. Its the same concept of the Stuttered Step Fsmash but with Z added in the middle.

Press the analong stick back while pressing C-stick forward and Z at the same time. (Right Kalm?)
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Great concepts of the RPG.

1. Teleporting range. I've said this often when explaining the RPG, but its just true. Ganon's grab range is increased by such a level that characters will look as if they popped into his dark fist. He won't even touch them, he'll just swipe at the air and suddenly you have them by the neck. It's just that awesome.

2. This is merely theoretical but its seems like it would work. This should be a great spacer for Ganondorf. You can avoid short ranged attacks while simulatneously attacking.

3. Since grabs have the unnaturally high priority on them in which they go through shields and basically all kinds of attacks. This might just be a great way to add some of the offensive and Ganon's already good defense.

4. Shield Grabbing actually becomes slightly useful now. Although I must admit that while it is possible to RPG Shield Grab, it can be kind of difficult. You need to drop your shield first, not for long at all, just for a few miliseconds or something, and then RPG. Otherwise you'll porbably just roll.

5. Grab Release characters have something to fear.
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A few questions to go over.

1. What is the best way to do an RPG with the least amount of backwards momentum. Ray Kalm bought one that is the working the best right now.

2. How does this affect matchups where approaching Ganon is an option and how, if it does as it probably should, help Ganon out.

Any other answers or questions would be great. Get working now!

SuSa · Dec 23, 2008

This is from a standstill? Correct?

I do this whenever I want to grab forward and I'm not dashing. With all my characters.

Ray_Kalm · Dec 23, 2008

Edited.

10chars.

Gleam · Dec 23, 2008

Havokk said:
This is from a standstill? Correct?

I do this whenever I want to grab forward and I'm not dashing. With all my characters.

Yep done from a Standstill.

So, hypothetically shouldn't this greatly help out Ganon against those who suffer from grab releases grabs like Lucas and Wario? And if so, shouldn't this also increase his chances of winning the matches?

Since his pivot grab decently increases his grab range and all that? Not to mention that I haven't really seen people do this and I just recently started messing around with it and found it.

Shadow Nataku · Dec 23, 2008

The problem is consistently doing it, I have to admit I still haven't been able to pull off the reverse pivot grab with anyone yet. But all Ganon needs is a range boost since what some people don't realize is Ganon has one of the fastest grabs. Throw in some really good followups out of his down throw and you got heavy untapped potential if you could fix this one flaw.

Gleam · Dec 23, 2008

Well since I think it's far easier than the FoG, with enough practice anyone should be able to do it consistently. I mean if one can perfect FoG to use it consistently, then this should be even easier. Just takes time and practice, that's all.

and Ganon's Reverse Pivot Grab is pretty darn fast and already has much better range than his normal grab which is a big deal at any case.

hyperstation · Dec 25, 2008

I like this, Gleam.

Let me see if I'm getting this right:

This is essentially a Dash Cancelled pivot Grab, yeah? Dash backwards, cancel the animation into a pivot grab. If you do it quickly enough you shouldn't really move laterally much at all, right?

Gleam · Dec 25, 2008

hyperstation said:
I like this, Gleam.

Let me see if I'm getting this right:

This is essentially a Dash Cancelled pivot Grab, yeah? Dash backwards, cancel the animation into a pivot grab. If you do it quickly enough you shouldn't really move laterally much at all, right?

Yes. If you want to have it where you have no backwards momentum. The best way I can think of is to just quickly press the analong stick back like in a dash and then move it forward immediately while grabbing. You've got be farily quick on it, but its possible and does get easier over time.

In most cases if you do it, and your quick but not right on the dot or something. You'll have a bit of latteral movement. However Ganon's grab range is increased drastically over the matter to the point where characters pretty much teleport into his grab. It gets that much of a range boost.

Gaussis · Dec 25, 2008

This isn't too hard. I do this with Ness all the time because his standing grab isn't that great. However, one thing to keep in mind is the range on his grab. You don't want to get hit by longer ranged attacks.

Bragi · Dec 25, 2008

I really like this idea. It gives Ganondorf a pretty fast and deceptive offensive swipe, and the "cooldown" isn't too bad. If you run into an attack, you might be in trouble, but otherwise you stand a good chance of landing a surprise grab. Might not be too important for characters who already have a lot of close-range options, but Ganondorf needs all the help he can get n that spot.

:034: · Dec 26, 2008

So wait

Dash backward, pivot grab? So basically just grab out of a very small dashdance?

Gleam · Dec 26, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
So wait

Dash backward, pivot grab? So basically just grab out of a very small dashdance?

Yep, quickly...but that is basically it.

It's points like these where I wish I could put and upload videos on Youtube and stuff. if anything if someone wants to just get on Wifi, I could show you all and one of you can get the videos. I can promise its easier done than said.

hyperstation · Dec 26, 2008

Gleam, you're the man.

AH <3 MAH GANONS

Gleam · Dec 26, 2008

hyperstation said:
Gleam, you're the man.

AH <3 MAH GANONS

Yes I am...I was also checking it out the grab and for more on how awesome its range is. It almost rivals Dedede's standing grab. So yes you all need to start wrecking Warios and lucas with these grab releases now.

hyperstation · Jan 2, 2009

Bump to save this thread from being forgotten. GOOD SH*T in here.

Gleam,

P.S. I love you. No homo.

If people aren't effing around with this, GET ON IT. The grab range is phenomenal.

Ray_Kalm · Jan 4, 2009

I've been messing around with this and been getting some good results out of it.

What exactly determines the slide?

hyperstation · Jan 4, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
I've been messing around with this and been getting some good results out of it.

What exactly determines the slide?

I'm not sure yet. Gleam, can you shed some light on this? I can't do a stationary pivot very consistently without the Dash sliding me backwards a bit. I will say though, even with the slide, I was using this in some teams matches yesterday and was LOVING what it was doing for my range and quickness overall.

Everybody get to work on this. Gleam has given us the best piece of Ganon intel we've seen in a while and it'd be a shame if we don't milk it for all it's worth. People have been clamoring for a better grab range as a way to help Ganon's metagame massively. Well, merry christmas. Santa Gleam got you just what you wanted.

Ray_Kalm · Jan 4, 2009

hyperstation said:
I'm not sure yet. Gleam, can you shed some light on this? I can't do a stationary pivot very consistently without the Dash sliding me backwards a bit. I will say though, even with the slide, I was using this in some teams matches yesterday and was LOVING what it was doing for my range and quickness overall.

Everybody get to work on this. Gleam has given us the best piece of Ganon intel we've seen in a while and it'd be a shame if we don't milk it for all it's worth. People have been clamoring for a better grab range as a way to help Ganon's metagame massively. Well, merry christmas. Santa Gleam got you just what you wanted.

Isn't there a somewhat easier way of doing this? Rotate the control stick back then the c-stick in the opposite direction, with Z in between. Kinda like doing a stutter step but, with Z in between.

hyperstation · Jan 4, 2009

Yeah, Kalm, I think that should work. I like the sounds of that. I've been doing Control stick Dash back, tilt forward and Z at the same time. If you can "SS" this sh*t, that would be a lot easier and a lot more consistent.

Gleam · Jan 4, 2009

I'm going to do some more testing on it, just in case something changes in the way its applicated. But as far as I know its based mainly on quickness and the backward running motion before the grab. I mean even I can't consistently Reverse Pivot Grab without moving some bit.

As best as I can explain at the moment it is to basically grab forward right after you start your running animation backward. Just instantly. I mean there are times when I won't move at all, and there times when I'll move back a bit.

I don't have anyway to see if Frame Data could help, but if someone wanted to look on that, might help.

EDIT: Tell me if that works better, your idea Kalm?

Ray_Kalm · Jan 4, 2009

Gleam said:
I'm going to do some more testing on it, just in case something changes in the way its applicated. But as far as I know its based mainly on quickness and the backward running motion before the grab. I mean even I can't consistently Reverse Pivot Grab without moving some bit.

As best as I can explain at the moment it is to basically grab forward right after you start your running animation backward. Just instantly. I mean there are times when I won't move at all, and there times when I'll move back a bit.

I don't have anyway to see if Frame Data could help, but if someone wanted to look on that, might help.

EDIT: Tell me if that works better, your idea Kalm?

If you're talking about the start-up and ending lag then, our regular grab is faster both ways.

Edit: Unless you were wanting to intercept the concepts of the reverse grab.

Gleam · Jan 4, 2009

Well were trying to see if there's a way to easily do the RPG consistently without the backwards movement of the grab. I was wondering if your whole idea of the Stutter Stepped Grab had any merit at all?

Ray_Kalm · Jan 4, 2009

Gleam said:
Well were trying to see if there's a way to easily do the RPG consistently without the backwards movement of the grab. I was wondering if your whole idea of the Stutter Stepped Grab had any merit at all?

Well, I've gotten less slide momentums from it. Which I think is because the stutter version has less input delay.

TP · Jan 4, 2009

If Kalm's method is good, it should probably be added to the first post.

Gleam · Jan 4, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Well, I've gotten less slide momentums from it. Which I think is because the stutter version has less input delay.

Well at least we know there is a way to get less momentum. However just wondering, does his have any other major affects on the control schemes, and if it does, how does help or probably more importantly, hurt us?

EDIT: Also Kalm quick question. For the Stuttered Step Reverse Pivot Grab. I assume you still have the C-stick on Smash. What I've been doing is pressing the C-stick forward to the oponent, while simulataneously pressing the analong stick backwards and pressing Z.

This has given me much better results as far as less momentum, but is this what your talking about?

Big O · Jan 4, 2009

I play Ganon from time to time and have messed around with this but when would you do this instead of a regular running grab? The running grab seems to have almost the same range as his ftilt and is easier to do (not mess up on) than this.

Gleam · Jan 4, 2009

Big O said:
I play Ganon from time to time and have messed around with this but when would you do this instead of a regular running grab? The running grab seems to have almost the same range as his ftilt and is easier to do (not mess up on) than this.

The Reverse Pivot Grab is faster and even if didn't have as big a range as Running grab, its still very good. Not to mention Running grabs are very easy to avoid.

Reverse Pivot Grabs can come out near instant really depending on how fast you are. But not only that, but because of the momnetum movement, not only can "somewhat" space against characters...but unlike the running grab, character teleport into Ganon's hand when he does a Reverse Pivot Grab.

hyperstation · Jan 4, 2009

Gleam said:
The Reverse Pivot Grab is faster and even if didn't have as big a range as Running grab, its still very good. Not to mention Running grabs are very easy to avoid.

Reverse Pivot Grabs can come out near instant really depending on how fast you are. But not only that, but because of the momnetum movement, not only can "somewhat" space against characters...but unlike the running grab, character teleport into Ganon's hand when he does a Reverse Pivot Grab.

I haven't done any data on it, but pivot grabbing has got to have a lot better cool down than a running grab.

I'd say IN THEORY that if one could consistently do non-sliding RPGs in place of regular forward grabbing, the whole way in which characters have to analyze Ganon's approach/spacing would change.

Also, Big O, why are you comparing Ganon's dash grab range to the range of his Ftilt in a discussion about pivot grabbing? Not only is it completely arbitrary, but Ftilt's range is not very good.

Big O · Jan 4, 2009

I just mentioned it as a reference since that move and the dash grab have about the same length. Even if it isn't great it is still better than his pivot grab range. Also if you don't time it right you will slide backwards which defeats the purpose of using it as a longer standing grab.

Gleam · Jan 4, 2009

hyperstation said:
I haven't done any data on it, but pivot grabbing has got to have a lot better cool down than a running grab.

I'd say IN THEORY that if one could consistently do non-sliding RPGs in place of regular forward grabbing, the whole way in which characters have to analyze Ganon's approach/spacing would change.

Also, Big O, why are you comparing Ganon's dash grab range to the range of his Ftilt in a discussion about pivot grabbing? Not only is it completely arbitrary, but Ftilt's range is not very good.

I was testing it out, and yes...RPG does have less cool down lag than a Running grab. At least form what I saw...I mean frame data would be a far more accurate way to tell. But from what I can tell, it does have less Cool Down lag on it.

Big O · Jan 4, 2009

I just did some frame tests on Ganon's running grab and pivot grab. His running grab grabs on frame 11 and ends on frame 38 while his pivot grab (timed perfectly) grabs on frame 10 and ends on frame 35. Since dashing backwards takes 1 more frame than dashing forwards they grab at the same time. It isn't much faster and the cooldown isn't much better.

Gleam · Jan 4, 2009

At any case, its still better than his dash grab. Tricky range and with the whole "teleporting into people into your hand" kind of grab it is, I think it acts as pretty good spacer. Not to mentions that unusually high priority grabs have just adds more to the RPG.

It's like DAD said. Once we get RPGing to where there's no momentum (And even a little momentum isn't going to hurt us I think.) people are going to have to approach ganon more carefully. This especially goes for the guys we have release grabs on like Wario and Lucas.

Gleam · Jan 5, 2009

Bump. I've changed it up a bit to add some this new stuff about the RPG. At this point input on this would be great.

Z1GMA · Jan 5, 2009

In our ditto, Gleam RPG'd my Dtilt while he was like 1 mile away O_o'
Incredible! I was like "wtf?"

Dragoomba · Jan 5, 2009

Z1GMA said:
In our ditto, Gleam RPG'd my Dtilt while he was like 1 mile away O_o'
Incredible! I was like "wtf?"

Was that an exaggeration? If not... HOLY ****.

hyperstation · Jan 5, 2009

It's true. Opponents literally teleport into Ganon's hands during an RPG. You can be maybe a body width and a half away. It's kind of insane.

Dragoomba · Jan 5, 2009

hyperstation said:
It's true. Opponents literally teleport into Ganon's hands during an RPG. You can be maybe a body width and a half away. It's kind of insane.

Wow, so is Ganon's like the longest ranged in the game? (Other than tethers.)

Gleam · Jan 5, 2009

Dragoomba said:
Wow, so is Ganon's like the longest ranged in the game? (Other than tethers.)

Any character can RPG. You could take Dedede's already incredible grab range and Hax it with RPG. The thing here is is the fact that we've taken Ganon's aboslute worst grab range in the entire game...and basically haxed it to the point where its great.

Its something that could be very problematic to characters and I'm really starting to see an Advantage in a matchup comming soon because of this.

ItemfinderDeluxe · Jan 6, 2009

Sure you could theoretically RPG with anyone, but how fast roughly is Ganon's grab compared to everyone elses? I always though Ganon had a pretty fast grab off the bat, but it would need to be pretty fast compared to the cast to make it truely advantageous. Also, ha anyone tested out this move trying to grab characters out of their 'safe pokes' (ie. DDD, DK, & Marth f-tilt, etc)? 'Cause if you could FPG some of them out of their pokes, it would help Ganon's defensive options greatly.

@HomE · Jan 6, 2009

Videos???

I haven't experimented with this at all (I've all but given up on trying to grab people with ganon) but from what im reading here it sounds very useful!

keep it up Gleam

Reverse Pivot Grabbing (An idea to improve Ganon's Grab)

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