The official Fox CP/BAN Guide! Currently discussing: MARTH

M@v · Dec 24, 2008

The Official Fox CP/Ban Guide

Contents:
1. Intro
2. What the Heck is CP/Banning?
3. How this guide works
4.Current Discussion
5. Page guide to discussions
6. CP/Ban Listings

INTRO
Alright guys. I've noticed several boards doing something similar to this, and I think it would be very beneficial if we had all of our CP/Ban discussion organized into a single guide. We are going to cover one character at a time, and discuss what stages to counterpick against that character, and what stage to ban against him/her. THIS IS NOT A MATCHUP GUIDE.(Matchup guide found here:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186742) Keep the discussion limited to the stages, and what advantages/disadvantages the stages present for the characters involved.

WHAT THE HECK IS CP/BANNING?!?!
CP/Banning is something that occurs during tournament play. Its quite simple really. At the beginning of a tournament set, after each person has chosen their characters for the first battle, Each player bans a stage that cannot be played at all during the course of the set. This stage is generally bad for the banners main, or its a stage the opponent could use to his advantage. After the first match is played, the loser gets to counteick a stage that either their character is good on, or could cause trouble for their opponent. If he wins, the opponent picks a CP stage, then whoever wins that fight is the the victor.
This guide/discussion will determine and show what stages are best to ban and counterpick vs a certain enemy.

HOW THIS GUIDE WORKS
When the data is posted about a character it will look like this:

Random-:random:
Counterpick:Battlefield 10/ Corneria 7 / Smashville 5.5

Ban:Luigi's Mansion 9/ PictoChat 8/ Rainbow Cruise 6.5

WHAT IT MEANS: The number next to the stage is a rating, similar to a matchup ratio. The higher the number, the better CP/ban it is. The scale is 1-10. 10 Means it is the best stage to use and you do great there, 5 means that the matchup ratio from the matchup guide holds true here(5s will usually be neutral stages), and 1 means that your opponent will get a huge advantage. This scale will let all the stages you can CP/ban get rated.

CURRENT DISCUSSION:MARTH

Page Guide to discussions
Metaknight:1-2
Marth:2-?[/SIZE]

CP/BAN stagelist
Organized in Alphabetical order(So I wont have to change it every time a new tier list comes out):

Bowser-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Captain Falcon-

Counterpick:

Ban:

DDD- :dedede:

Counterpick:

Ban:

Diddy Kong-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Donkey Kong-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Falco-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Fox-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Ganondorf-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Ike-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Game and Watch-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Ice Climbers-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Jigglypuff-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Kirby-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Link-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Lucario-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Lucas-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Luigi-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Mario-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Marth-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Metaknight-

Counterpick: 8 Halberd/ 7 pipes/ 5 norfair

Ban: 10 Luigi's Mansion /9 Lylat Cruise / 7 Corneria/ 5 Rainbow cruise/ 3 FD

Ness-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Olimar-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Peach-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Pikachu-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Pit-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Pokemon trainer-

Counterpick:

Ban:

R.O.B-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Samus-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Sheik-:shiek:
Counterpick:

Ban:

Snake-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Sonic-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Toon Link-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Wario-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Wolf-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Yoshi-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Zelda-

Counterpick:

Ban:

Zero suit Samus-

Counterpick:

Ban:

NinjaFoxX · Dec 24, 2008

good idea indeed Mav.

for MK, id go with Yoshi's Island(melee) its apparently his worse stage. + it has a low ceiling(not as low as it was in Melee but its still good)

M@v · Dec 24, 2008

Anything that lets MK fly around a lot or spam his tornado effectively isnt good.
Luigi's mansion immediately comes to mind, as does rainbow cruise, and Lylat cruise.

SCOTU · Dec 24, 2008

IMO: Pipes is the best stage for this. REALLY low ceiling, MK can't really gimp you here, the slants make it difficult for him to KO you, utilts+blocks = ****.

Rainbow Cruise = even imo; Fox can actually use his laser here because MK's slow in the air. moreover, fox's usmash KOs at like stupid percents on top. Hell, his UTILT KOs there. MK still does have his silly little shuttle loop though.

Toronto Joe · Dec 24, 2008

for neutrals FD is my favorite

i hate lylat and BF, mainly because the platforms limit your abililty to manuever around and if fox cant move around in this matchup hes not going to do well, not to mention nado on BF is plain stupid

Ban weegees mansion, if that isnt a legal cp at your tourneys like the ones i go to then id say ban Delfino or Rainbow Cruise(dont risk RC vs MK, save yourself from incredibly broken kills)

i like Pipes, Brinstar and Pokemon stadium1 vs MK.......im not sure how reliable PK1 is tho

Shintarru · Dec 24, 2008

uhh ps1 is my usualy cp on AiB but it only works against him certain terrain. I like Corneria because if has a low ceiling.

Ban RC, and luigi mansion.

M@v · Dec 24, 2008

Also, Pirate ship wouldnt be a bad CP stage. If MK gets you over the water, go for the water and it will be harder for him to edgeguard you. he doesn't have a spike, so you should be a little safer.

Sushi-Man · Dec 24, 2008

Fox should ban RC againts mk and should play mk on flat stages (such as fd or smashville)

Chileno4Live · Dec 24, 2008

I think Corneria is good for a neutral stage, but might end up in Fox's advantage cause of the low ceiling. Though MK can fly around XD

M@v · Dec 24, 2008

Chileno4Live said:
I think Corneria is good for a neutral stage

wow....just plain wow.....

Conviction · Dec 24, 2008

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
wow....just plain wow.....

Lol leave it be M@v

§witch · Dec 24, 2008

MK's dsmash can KO reallllllly early on corneria, plus he dtilt you against the wall. Pipes is sounding like a good call.

And lol, I thought Scotu was Ankoku posting here for a sec.

Zhamy · Dec 24, 2008

Yeah, that mod stuff throws for you a loop.

Pipes seems to be the generally agreed good CP?

§witch · Dec 24, 2008

Zhamy said:
Yeah, that mod stuff throws for you a loop.

Pipes seems to be the generally agreed good CP?

That and the anime avatar. Which is most likely the point.

Sounds good to me.

-Mars- · Dec 25, 2008

I like playing MK on Norfair. You can live longer than he can, laser camp, do nice things with the multiple platforms, run away, abuse rising fairs all over the place, drop through the platforms and do uairs.......lots of options that you don't have on most stages.

SCOTU · Dec 25, 2008

§witch said:
That and the anime avatar. Which is most likely the point.

Sounds good to me.

lol yeah, i did kinda just up and steel the same character ankoku's been using for a bit now for my avatar (which, is actually a character from the touhou video game series, not an anime; they're just fan drawings that we're using)

Deoxys · Dec 26, 2008

If MK gets ahead on PS1 and camps beneath the ledge, what can Fox do that's effective?

MK should probably ban YI(M), and RC is just really, really, really good for MK in general, especially against characters that can't keep up with his aerial game. Since MK is bad on FD and Fox is good on it, it seems like it would be a good CP. Is Fox good on Norfair? I wouldn't assume so. If Delfino is bad for Fox like the Counterpicking Made Easy thread says, since it is a great MK stage, I would be rather worried about it if I were a Fox main, too. There are other stages that are worthy of mention, but we might as well wait until the 5th to see if they're worth discussing.

Can Fox force aerial grab release regrab MK?

SCOTU · Dec 26, 2008

FD is in no way, bad for MK. watch some East Coast MKs lol, you LIVE on EC.
Fox does ok on norfair
Fox cannot grab release regrab MK afaik.

M@v · Dec 26, 2008

Hmmm What about Frigate Guys? its One of Fox's better stages, But I think MK does even better than fox does there.

Toronto Joe · Dec 26, 2008

frigate messes up foxs recovery, and MKs dsmash and shuttle loop offstage will kill at the most disgusting %

M@v · Dec 26, 2008

Toronto Joe said:
frigate messes up foxs recovery, and MKs dsmash and shuttle loop offstage will kill at the most disgusting %

honestly only the side without a ledge messes fox up, but then again vs mk...

Deoxys · Dec 26, 2008

scotu said:
FD is in no way, bad for MK. watch some East Coast MKs lol, you LIVE on EC.
Fox does ok on norfair
Fox cannot grab release regrab MK afaik.

Talk to good MK mains; FD is bad for MK. <_<' It's his second worst stage against Falco (after Japes), and his worst starter BY FAR in a majority of matchups.

What does "afaik" mean?

I don't see Frigate being a good CP for either player in this matchup.

SCOTU · Dec 26, 2008

i know it's bad against falco, but in general, FD isn't a bad stage for MK. and as for talking to MK mains, i'd prefer to keep my sanity and not talk to myself.

afaik = As Far As I Know.

Deoxys · Dec 27, 2008

scotu said:
i know it's bad against falco, but in general, FD isn't a bad stage for MK. and as for talking to MK mains, i'd prefer to keep my sanity and not talk to myself.

afaik = As Far As I Know.

You don't main Fox?

If you play Fox and MK the most, are you saying that FD isn't good enough for Fox in the matchup to make a good CP? If so, I'm just surprised since it's so good for Falco in the matchup.

NeverKnowsBest · Dec 27, 2008

marsulas said:
I like playing MK on Norfair. You can live longer than he can, laser camp, do nice things with the multiple platforms, run away, abuse rising fairs all over the place, drop through the platforms and do uairs.......lots of options that you don't have on most stages.

I have been saying this since C3 back in November.

Deoxys said:
You don't main Fox?

If you play Fox and MK the most, are you saying that FD isn't good enough for Fox in the matchup to make a good CP? If so, I'm just surprised since it's so good for Falco in the matchup.

NO HE GAVE UP!!!!!!!!

All jokes aside, I remember him mentioning that he started playing Falco and said he didn't like him so he started MK.

OO and Fox and Falco are completely different characters. I'm assuming the fact there is no platforms = GC, and Falco's lasers are the reason why Falco excels on FD? I don't really know much about Falco.

Conviction · Dec 27, 2008

Doesn't our Dair either trade or cancel MK's Up b when not in the invincible frames

SCOTU · Dec 27, 2008

Deoxys said:
You don't main Fox?

If you play Fox and MK the most, are you saying that FD isn't good enough for Fox in the matchup to make a good CP? If so, I'm just surprised since it's so good for Falco in the matchup.

I play a bunch of fox, but i'm most likely to play MK in a tourney at the moment

The stage is good for falco cause of his lasers. unfortunately, MK is fast enough to not care about fox's lasers on that stage, so they don't give him any advantage. The stage is probably 5:5 in the matchup (meaning MK is greatly advantaged in the matchup there)

Leafplayer452 · Dec 31, 2008

I usually ban Jungle Japes because once I get into that water, like 25% chance Ill make it out without being gimped. Sometimes I ban Rainbow Cruise.....if I see the guys main has a wall inifinite on RC. Other than that I ban JJ.

I either CP Battlefield or Pokemon Stadium 1. Reason being I like those stages, on BF....you can say I do my best there. On PS1, I like Pokemon plus sometimes I wall tech and that saves my a** alot.

RPK · Dec 31, 2008

Actually, Fox can if the Meta Knight is being stupid when struggling. If the Meta Knight doesnt do anything then no grab release. However, he can initiate a jump grab release which from there, the Fox can upsmash him.

Onto the actual topic, the stages to ban are Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza, and Luigi's Mansion. All good Meta Knight stages. And his best neutral is Battlefield considering the ones in my area love getting that as their first stage.

TKD · Jan 2, 2009

L Y L A T C R U I S E FOR THE WIN

Seriously, Lylat Cruise is amazing against Fox. Horrible edges for him, and three low positioned platforms so Fox can't approach from above easily. Plus, Meta Knight's recovery has no trouble ever, so unlike Fox, he has no edge problems here. I don't know if you're still discussing Meta Knight.

As for counterpick stages for Fox...

Halberd has a low ceiling, but it also has a platform all across the center of the stage, which messes up Fox's grab release into upsmash and doesn't allow Fox to approach from above. It's a win/lose I think.

Final Destination is a big stage, with nothing to interrupt Fox's game, but he doesn't get any recovery help. I think FD is good for Fox, so good that Meta Knight players usually ban it. I don't know which stage is the best besides FD.

PS: Meta Knight can actually struggle out of Fox's grab without a jump break. It's as simple as not pressing UP on the control stick. So they can struggle out as usual but by pressing left, right and down instead of fully rotating the control stick. It's still worth checking out because it's NOTICEABLE if they rotate the control stick on reflex. If they don't, you can just throw as usual.

M@v · Jan 6, 2009

bump....lets move on to marth. MK is a hard character to cp/ban, but it looks like the best are:

CP-Halberd and pipes

Ban: Luigis mansion and lylat cruise.

•Col• · Jan 6, 2009

Ban Final Destination and pick Battlefield against Marth.

M@v · Jan 6, 2009

Colaya said:
Ban Final Destination and pick Battlefield against Marth.

look at this comedian :D

Zhamy · Jan 6, 2009

CURRENT DISCUSSION:METAKNIGHT

Metaknight, eh?

NeverKnowsBest · Jan 6, 2009

Colaya said:
Ban Final Destination and pick Battlefield against Marth.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
look at this comedian :D

Surprisingly I kinda agree. I do EXTREMELY well on Battlefield against anyone. The platforms help set up for ridiculous easy to pull off and accurate AC forward airs and back airs. Also people tend to be threaten to land on platforms when returning so they usually air dodge to the bottom where you can punish with a PWG.

-Mars- · Jan 6, 2009

Why would you ever take a sword user to a stage with platforms? Battlefield is one of Marth's better stages.

Take him to a large stage that gives you room to operate and prevent yourself form being spaced to death. Even though Halberd has platforms, it is rather large and the low ceiling is great for killing Marth earlier than he kills you.

NeverKnowsBest · Jan 6, 2009

marsulas said:
Why would you ever take a sword user to a stage with platforms? Battlefield is one of Marth's better stages.

Take him to a large stage that gives you room to operate and prevent yourself form being spaced to death. Even though Halberd has platforms, it is rather large and the low ceiling is great for killing Marth earlier than he kills you.

The reason's I stated above =D Even thought it wouldn't be my first choice. First choice would be FD hands down xD. I was just stating that I believe Fox can actually handle Marth there decently.

M@v · Jan 7, 2009

Btw, Colaya is a marth player, he was just saying what he said as a joke :D. He knows BF is marths best stage.

Chileno4Live · Jan 8, 2009

Hmm, well i'm here again thinking of what stage is the best to fight Marth against. I main Marth after Fox and GAW. So i'll just try to see on what stage i don't like to play on with Marth.

First of, i think Delfino Plaza is a pretty neutral stage for Fox. And i don't like to play there with Marth for some reason. I think it's because of the continously stage changing. It kinda screwas up my game. I'm not really a GOOD player so just ignore me if i'm wrong. Just trying to help <_>

The official Fox CP/BAN Guide! Currently discussing: MARTH

Subarashii!

Banned via Warnings

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Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

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Smash Ace

Smash Ace

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Human Nature

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Subarashii!

Smash Master

Subarashii!

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Monochrome Like A Panda

Human Nature

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Subarashii!

Smash Champion

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Smash Champion

Monochrome Like A Panda

Smash Hero

Monochrome Like A Panda

Subarashii!

Smash Ace

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