Secondaries - The thread to end all threads.

SuSa · Dec 24, 2008

Over at the Peach Boards I saw a thread where they discussed each secondary, I thought this would be a great idea considering everyone comes in and asks which is the best secondary, but not many people give good facts backing their claims.

So we will be discussing secondaries, the pro's and con's of each (how they help us to secondary, how they hurt us), what bad matchups they cover for us, what neutral matchups they make easier for us, etc.

We will not be discussing Meta Knight anytime soon because he is obviously 'everyone's' best secondary because as of right now he has no bad matchups.

Prepare Yourself | Stolen from the Peach Secondary Thread without permission said:
Learning Curves

Very Large (at least a month):
:shiek:
Above Average (2-3 weeks):

Average(1-2 weeks):

Below Average (5 days to a week):

Very Small (2-3 days):

I will choose our first discussion to be about:

Falco

I chose Falco because he is often said by people to be a good secondary, including myself.

Discuss:

Which bad matchups he covers for us:
Why him rather then another character for those matchups?:
What does he have that Snake doesn't? (Chaingrab/GOOD Spike for example)
What neutral matchups does he make easier for us? (DeDeDe for example)
Similarites: (Spammable B for example, lol)
Comparisons: (Good Bair/Dthrow for example)

bman in 2288 · Dec 24, 2008

Falco is good at stopping people's momentum offstage with his laser, while Snake is all about reading their DI.

Falco may have a ledgeguarding game as good, maybe even better, than Snake's , depending on how they're played.

Mith_ · Dec 24, 2008

He counters Dedede.

8AngeL8 · Dec 24, 2008

* Which bad matchups he covers for us:
DDD for sure. He does quite well against ROB also.

* Why him rather then another character for those matchups?:
He's possible DDD's hardest counter, and the reflector and lasers shut down ROB.

* What does he have that Snake doesn't?
Reflector and fantastic aerials. It's great to not get completely owned in the air.

* What neutral matchups does he make easier for us? (DeDeDe for example)
ROB and DDD

* Similarites: (Spammable B for example, lol)
Fantastic projectiles, fantastic throws, very gimpable

* Comparisons: (Good Bair/Dthrow for example)
They both absolutely lock down a lot of opponents. Their camp games and throws put up an absolute wall that quite a few opponents will have a hell of a time getting around.

Overall, I recommend Falco pretty highly as a secondary. You can switch between the two easily since they have a somewhat similar playstyle, and they're both really good characters. Obviously, MK would be a better secondary, but he's also a better main :chuckle:

SuSa · Dec 24, 2008

I agree with Angel's post, and in the future try and be descriptive in your posts...

Especially you Mithx, that was a pretty wasted post. (Trying to avoid posts like that...)

edit:

@angel
"We will not be discussing Meta Knight anytime soon because he is obviously 'everyone's' best secondary because as of right now he has no bad matchups."

:mewtwo:

8AngeL8 · Dec 24, 2008

I'll try to be more descriptive in the future, sorry. Falco's already been heavily discussed as a secondary, I didn't want to be redundant...

SuSa · Dec 24, 2008

* Which bad matchups he covers for us:
Snake Dittos (what now, roflz)
King DeDeDe - He can CG DeDeDe, while DeDeDe is forced to tech-chase Falco. Falco also outcamps DeDeDe and pressures well with lasers.
Donkey Kong - He can CG-Spike Donkey Kong... this is helpful. He can also easily outcamp Donkey Kong, and isn't ***** as hard in the air.
I hear he gives Diddy a relatively hard time due to reflecting Nanners
ROB - Can reflect projectiles, CG

* Why him rather then another character for those matchups?:
Because he can CG. - 10 small posts

* What does he have that Snake doesn't? (Chaingrab/GOOD Spike for example)
Chaingrab on a lot of the cast, especially heavyweights and fastfallers.
Has an easy to land Spike, unlike Snake's "tip of the ankle" only spike.
Can outcamp even Snake
Has a reflector
Less predictable, but still as easily punished, recovery.

* What neutral matchups does he make easier for us? (DeDeDe for example)
He makes Pikachu a bit easier with Reflector, which stops thunderspam. He also makes a few other matchups easier but I forget which ones.

* Similarities: (Spammable B for example, lol)
Game is centered around camping, much like Snake's.
Down Throw is ****.

* Comparisons: (Good Bair/Dthrow for example)
Whereas Snake is centered around camping, AND setting things up in advance (mines/c4), Falco is entirely dependant on what your opponent does. You can't "control the stage" as well as Snake, and you're waiting for your opponent to mess up rather then FORCING your opponent into a position.

:mewtwo:

CELTiiC · Dec 24, 2008

* Which bad matchups he covers for us:
King Dedede

* Why him rather then another character for those matchups?:
He's beast, he can CG D3 and one of his only bad match-ups Snake covers, (MK). Falco can pressure, and also scare D3 pretty fast.

* What does he have that Snake doesn't? (Chaingrab/GOOD Spike for example)
Chaingrab, Reflector

* What neutral matchups does he make easier for us? (DeDeDe for example)
King Dedede , Wario

* Similarites: (Spammable B for example, lol)
Can camp like a beast also, can DACUS and his Gatling Combo is like a contact Mortar Slide, both F-Smashes are pretty laggy

* Comparisons: (Good Bair/Dthrow for example)
D-Throw can CG, Snake has a better jab, and better tilts than Falco, and both their games are completely different, Falco is more of a quick reaction type of game, based more around your opponent, Snake is more of a set up camp game, where you place your projectiles and your explosives in a way which can be to your benefit (like platform explosion traps)

Nic64 · Dec 24, 2008

* Which bad matchups he covers for us:

he counters DDD and DDD is IMO snakes only truly disadvantaged match

* Why him rather then another character for those matchups?:

he has some similarities to snake in how he'd play a DDD where as someone like MK or GAW would usually be very aggressive on DDD, so you can consistently play the same style. everyone will say MK is the best secondary for everyone(and I'd have to agree, snake and MK are my two best as of late), but beyond him falco is the next best choice IMO.

* What does he have that Snake doesn't? (Chaingrab/GOOD Spike for example)

lasers and a reflector, almost no one will win a camping game with falco. better aerial mobility and aerial attacks as well

* Similarites: (Spammable B for example, lol)

both characters are very good at tech chasing and camping, camp, put your opponent in a bad situation, chase and read them

both characters have fast somewhat spammable jab attacks that can stop a lot of things and get you out of trouble sometimes

both have recoveries that, while not terrible, need to be mixed up so as not to get gimp hammered/juggle *****

IMO in terms of snake secondaries, MK > Falco > GAW...and I must be the really weird one because I actually have an easier time with ROB using snake than falco =/

SuSa · Dec 24, 2008

@Nic

Wait til you face a DK as Snake, it's hard.

:mewtwo:

Nic64 · Dec 24, 2008

no harder than ROB or Falco IMO, I didn't say snake ***** everyone just that DDD is the only one that I think has the upper hand on him

JesiahTEG · Dec 25, 2008

DDD is the easiest character in the game to learn.

~ Gheb ~ · Dec 25, 2008

G&W is easier than D3 imo.

I'd say Olimar is the best back-up. If you use Falco as a 2nd you'd have to do the Snake ditto, since Snake beats Falco. Olimar does well vs D3 too and you can use him against Snake just as good. If you dislike Snake dittos (and who doesn't?) you shouldn't go for Falco but Olimar...

Jim Morrison · Dec 25, 2008

is Snake a hard learning curve...? In the same category as Sonic?

Megavitamins · Dec 25, 2008

Havokk said:
* Which bad matchups he covers for us:
Snake Dittos (what now, roflz)
King DeDeDe - He can CG DeDeDe, while DeDeDe is forced to tech-chase Falco. Falco also outcamps DeDeDe and pressures well with lasers.
Donkey Kong - He can CG-Spike Donkey Kong... this is helpful. He can also easily outcamp Donkey Kong, and isn't ***** as hard in the air.
I hear he gives Diddy a relatively hard time due to reflecting Nanners
ROB - Can reflect projectiles, CG

* Why him rather then another character for those matchups?:
Because he can CG. - 10 small posts

* What does he have that Snake doesn't? (Chaingrab/GOOD Spike for example)
Chaingrab on a lot of the cast, especially heavyweights and fastfallers.
Has an easy to land Spike, unlike Snake's "tip of the ankle" only spike.
Can outcamp even Snake
Has a reflector
Less predictable, but still as easily punished, recovery.

* What neutral matchups does he make easier for us? (DeDeDe for example)
He makes Pikachu a bit easier with Reflector, which stops thunderspam. He also makes a few other matchups easier but I forget which ones.

* Similarities: (Spammable B for example, lol)
Game is centered around camping, much like Snake's.
Down Throw is ****.

* Comparisons: (Good Bair/Dthrow for example)
Whereas Snake is centered around camping, AND setting things up in advance (mines/c4), Falco is entirely dependant on what your opponent does. You can't "control the stage" as well as Snake, and you're waiting for your opponent to mess up rather then FORCING your opponent into a position.

:mewtwo:

Falco doesnt do good against rob. Only real thing he has going for him in that match up is he can outcamp rob, his CG doesnt really work very well at all on Rob. IIRC, the match up is 6-4 rob. No way falco beats him.

SuSa · Dec 25, 2008

Megavitamins said:
Falco doesnt do good against rob. Only real thing he has going for him in that match up is he can outcamp rob, his CG doesnt really work very well at all on Rob. IIRC, the match up is 6-4 rob. No way falco beats him.

Every good ROB I've faced including HugS seems to go even with my Falco.

CG > CG > Gattling Combo = Free 40-50%

You outcamp him, and Rob's approaches aren't exactly the best IMO. Especially if you know the character.

:mewtwo:

Megavitamins · Dec 25, 2008

Idk, I just feel very good with that match up... Especially cuz wants rob gets falco offstage, its like free percent or a stock gone. =P. Then again, last time I played a good falco with rob was in like in July, its possible im just outdated haha.

8AngeL8 · Dec 26, 2008

Falco has the advantage over ROB, I'm sure of it. ROB is completely outcamped and his approach options are easily beaten by proper shieldgrabbing or just phantasming through and lasering some more. Assuming the Falco is smart enough to stay out of Dsmash range, I think it's in his favor. The problem is when ROB decides to plank. Still, it's easier to deal with than MK's planking. You can reflector his own projectiles back and he's easier to stage spike with bair than MK is.

As far as gimping, MK has an easier time gimping Falco, and aren't people trying to say that fight is 55/45 MK? Falco just has to not get knocked off stage. It's not that hard when you play a smart laser game.

UltimateRazer · Dec 26, 2008

I think olimar is easiest to learn.

Z, Z, Z, c-stick, c-stick, c-stick, repeat.

lol.

-Ran · Dec 26, 2008

There are some characters that are easy to learn, but take a special 'something' to get out of the middle class of the character. Sure, you could pick up Game and Watch in a few days, but you won't be a high level Game and Watch that will win a tournament. You'll have functional knowledge of the character that will hinge upon your natural talent at Smash brothers. I always laugh in my head when someone switches to Meta Knight after I've beaten their main, simply because Meta Knight has a massive valley between the two mountains of 'n00b' and 'Pro.'

Most people never make it up that mountain, and others call it just an anthill. It is nice to know of the character, and the basics, but sometimes taking a secondary requires going away from the 'ease' of use and more into the depth that the character represents. I suppose, it's best said that everyone knows how to play against the 'Day 3 Character' because fundamentally they all play exactly the same.

Beware of shallow secondaries; if you don't, you'll find yourself using your main even in your bad match ups.

Esoteric · Dec 27, 2008

I use Captain Falcon as my secondary for double the manliness.

Seriously though since most of my play time is on WiFi I mostly play Ness/Falcon/Ike as my secondaries. I love Wolf too, but his recovery kills me. :psycho:

SuSa · Dec 30, 2008

This needs a bump, I'll update Falco soon.

Next discussion:

G&W (I guess)

~PsykoTek~ · Jan 1, 2009

lol I secondary ZSS but im good I suppose w/ Falco, I "secondary" him for the fact that not only is he top tier, but is a good match-up against most of the other top tiers, which makes for more wins =D

AfroTastic · Jan 3, 2009

Well heres goes for me, mines G&W why

He avoids falco's CG at low percentages unlike snake and also can't be CG by D3

G&W has a very excellent air game which snake lacks.

Fair- comes out resonably fast and is a good kill move.
Bair-Contested as one of the best moves in the game spam the hell out of it.
Uair-Good juggling move, catches people off guard and can lead to Usmash or Fsmash,second hit of this move kills at high percent.
Dair- Two hit move, good for killing at high percent, also good for DI'ing.
Nair- One of the best moves in G&W's arsonal great for juggling and can rack up damage exceptionaly fast and is a very spammable move.

Smash's whats the difference between his and snakes? one word SPEED.

Fsmash-comes out fast and can't be spot dodged due to the long duration that it stays out.
USmash-Excellent kill move because it has such a big hitbox around him.
Dsmash-FAST spammable, good kill move and has very weird properties depending on where on the hammers it hits.

Tilt's sure there not as good as snake's but they have priorty.

Neutral A-Fast and can lead into his CG on certain characters.
Ftilt-Decent move has good knockback on it, but it can be shield punished easily.
UTilt-Good juggling move that can either lead into the Nair or UpB combo.
Dilt-One word PRIORTY his Dtilt comes out fast and is good for edgeguarding because it has such a huge hitbox above the manhole.

B Moves

Neutral B- Can be used as an edgeguard or hit them with the frying pan for good damage and knockback.
SideB-Judgement hammer is G&W's russian roulette weapon its either good or its not.
DownB-Bucket can lead into one of his most powerfull attacks the oil spill when he absorbs certain projectiles like Pk fires,Fire balls, and lazers.
UpB-Excellent recovery move and can be used for combo's and a great stage spike move.

I hope this writeup helps some people.

also ill edit this out when i get more info and stuff with him.

Taeran · Jan 4, 2009

Ran Iji said:
There are some characters that are easy to learn, but take a special 'something' to get out of the middle class of the character. Sure, you could pick up Game and Watch in a few days, but you won't be a high level Game and Watch that will win a tournament. You'll have functional knowledge of the character that will hinge upon your natural talent at Smash brothers. I always laugh in my head when someone switches to Meta Knight after I've beaten their main, simply because Meta Knight has a massive valley between the two mountains of 'n00b' and 'Pro.'

Most people never make it up that mountain, and others call it just an anthill. It is nice to know of the character, and the basics, but sometimes taking a secondary requires going away from the 'ease' of use and more into the depth that the character represents. I suppose, it's best said that everyone knows how to play against the 'Day 3 Character' because fundamentally they all play exactly the same.

Beware of shallow secondaries; if you don't, you'll find yourself using your main even in your bad match ups.

Kirby is like that too, along with Bowser.

lanky_gunner · Jan 7, 2009

I always believed your secondary should be someone you enjoy playing (same as your main), and you should stick with that character even if they end up being a bad counter-pick to the other player, cause then you could master that character and end up with something incredible in your hands.

Then again, you do have to worry about your picks with characters like Meta Knight.

I kinda wish I could contribute, but I follow my first example, so I don't know too much about counter-picks. I believe you can beat anyone with any character if you do it right.

Well, if more discussions keep coming in, I may change my mind on the subject, so I want people to come in and discuss these topics.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jan 9, 2009

I like G&W.

However, I'm not exactly sure which matchups he will fix for you. DDD is a given; he simply can't be CG'd. Then again, neither can falco. I have to say, G&W takes Zelda apart, seeing as you can bucket Din's Fire and your smashes easily outdo hers in powerlevel. But is Zelda someone to worry about? Where are you better off knowing G&W than Falco as a snake secondary?

(On a slightly related note, I cannot play with falco; I just can't figure out how the buggery ******* works, or how he's supposed to be good. At all.)

Eternal Yoshi · Jan 9, 2009

colbusman said:
I always believed your secondary should be someone you enjoy playing (same as your main), and you should stick with that character even if they end up being a bad counter-pick to the other player, cause then you could master that character and end up with something incredible in your hands.

Then again, you do have to worry about your picks with characters like Meta Knight.

This. My other main is (obviously) Yoshi and he isn't that high on the tier list. He does good against Olimar but Yoshi as a character is a preference.
As for G&W, he is a great choice to consider as a secondary. He does well against so many characters, Including DDD, Olimar, Pikachu, ROB, Lucario, and Falco.
His down throw can lead to tech chases like Snake's.

Tero. · Jan 11, 2009

G&W is obv one of Snakes best secondarys, he does good against all of Snakes bad MU, e.g. Falco, DDD, Pikachu and ROB. Also G&W is top tier lulz.

So yeah he is top tier is kinda easy to learn and does good against all of snakes bad mu, what do you want more?

Eternal Yoshi · Jan 12, 2009

True. The only thing to fear as G&W is other Snakes.

SuSa · Jan 13, 2009

I'll be back sometime soon, grounded for yelling at my mom. ( she yelled at my girlfriend... )

SNNAAAKKKKEEEEE · Jan 17, 2009

bman in 2288 said:
Falco is good at stopping people's momentum offstage with his laser, while Snake is all about reading their DI.

Falco may have a ledgeguarding game as good, maybe even better, than Snake's , depending on how they're played.

Yeah it actually depends on it your good with recovering with Snake, because Falco may have the advantage with long distance edge gaurding (because of his laser), however, Snake is the best for a quick and easy KO if you know how to spike good and how to recover well with Snake. On the contrary, Falco is definitely better for edge guarding if you want it easy, because with Snake it will take practice to become good at spiking and recovering.

Vorguen · Mar 15, 2009

Posted to subscribe. Too bad it's old.

I have been looking for that character learning curve chart for a while to show it anyway.

BRANman · Mar 16, 2009

Havokk said:
I'll be back sometime soon, grounded for yelling at my mom. ( she yelled at my girlfriend... )

lol. your mom asked for it. so snakes a hard learning curve huh..... guess i picked a bad main to start brawl with...
*facepalm*

CELTiiC · Mar 16, 2009

BRANman said:
lol. your mom asked for it. so snakes a hard learning curve huh..... guess i picked a bad main to start brawl with...
*facepalm*

Why say that? Snake has great match-ups, also he is a great character in brawl, but it just takes time to learn him. He is great on a competitive level, look at Ally for example. lol

AfroQT · Mar 16, 2009

i think its funny that they say wolf has a low learning curve...thats pretty funny.

napZzz · Mar 16, 2009

Afro_Thundah said:
i think its funny that they say wolf has a low learning curve...thats pretty funny.

lolwutfsmash

Zajice · Mar 16, 2009

I'll agree that Falco is good to second with Snake, but with the new chain grabs that Pikachu's are learning, Pika can easily counter both of them. He can take Snake from 23% to 90% and he can't do anything about it if he's over the edge. If he's on the stage, there's 1 frame where he can get out a grenade and stop it, but it falls off the stage on the edge.

Pika can also take Falco from 20% to 100% if they start their CGs with a fresh d-throw and you can't do ANYTHING to stop it.

I'd say this combination is good for everyone except Pikachu. :/

Edit: I'm kind of happy about these new CGs since it makes many matchups for Pika much better, and he's my second. The only one that bothers me is Snake's. But if I'm up against a Pikachu, I'd probably just go with Marth or something to counter him.

EditEdit:

K Prime said:
New Snake cg!

Fthrow x 2 > pummel > Dthrow x 3 > pummel > Dthrow x 5 + regrab - 83%

Snake cannot nade or footstool out of this one.

Joy.

Tero. · Mar 18, 2009

Zajice said:
I'd probably just go with Marth or something to counter him.

Gay&Watch.
Problem solved.

Vorguen · Mar 18, 2009

Meta, Marth, and G&W are pretty bad fights for Pikachu. Don't know if the chaingrab on Meta Knight is changing anything for Pika though.

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