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Matchup Thread: ESAM edition. Wario

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[FBC] ESAM

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ESAM here with my 2nd matchup thread. I know a lot less with this one, so help will be much appreciates

WARIO

Overview

Wario is a very strange matchup for all characters. He has the best mobility in the air, which leads to a very annoying style of play. He will be jumping, poking your shield, and retreating, which leaves very little room to do anything. Thankfully, you have thunder jolts which can really help this matchup. Wario has no projectile, so you can abuse it all you want, but spam with intelligence.

On the Ground

Wario shouldn't really be on the ground that often...his ace is his air game. However, there are several troubling factors about wario on the ground. First off, his F-smash is really good. With no DI, it can probably kill pika at 80%. It has super armor at its initiation, so it can eat through whatever you are doing, except if you are grabbing. This is Wario's 2nd best kill move, so beware. his DACUS is also very speedy, so you need to be careful when T-jolting, which is why i said spam smart. Bike is also very quick, and can eat through t-jolt, and eveything you do that isn't hitting him from above. However, if you hit wario off his bike and it stays on the level, try your best to keep wario away from it. If you knock wario off the level when his back is still on the stage, you can go out and edgeguard him so well, he has really no tricks he can do. His DI can still be a little tricky, but he can't just be mindgaming you that whole time, he has to come in.

In the Air

Wario's dair is his most troubling aerial. It is a multi-hit attack, so it will easily poke your shield. It is very quick to come out, and can easily combo you into bite, bike, or f-smash (f-smash only if the last hit doesn't connect). It has good priority, and can eat through your QA, so use it sparingly. WHen pika is at low%, wario can even dair, every hit, to F-smash, doing around 30%! When Wario lands from the air, if he is facing you, he will probably try to grab you, or SH another dair and eat your shield even more. If he is facing away, he might reverse F-smash, so be aware of where he lands and how he lands. Pika's D-smash outprioritizes Wario's dair, so again, this matchup is all based on positioning of air vs ground.

WHen warios are SH double fairing and DIing backwards immediately after, they are most likely doing this for spacing. Fair isn't strong enough to really do anything against you in terms of knocking you back, so they are either doing it for spacing, or, if you are off the level, to gimp your jumps and make it harder for you to recover. Bair, adversely, can kill you off the cliff. Uair, his strongest aerial, can kill unsuspecting pikachus VERY EARLY.

Grabs

Wario has always been bad when being grabbed. Pikachu does not have a CG on wario, but has many options out of grab release. Unfortunately, these opportunities only come when they release from the air. Most smart Warios will get out from the ground. However, from the air, you can Nair, U-smash, D-smash, and you can footstool to QA, which can lead to another grab. When wario releases to the ground, the only thing you can do is jab.

Pika cannot be CG'd by Wario's D-throw, but you should still jump away, otherwise you will get hit by his massive shoulder. You could also shield in this situation, but wario may grab you again, so its all about tricking him and hopefully avoiding his attacks.

Approaching

Against wario, you do not want to be the aggressor. Since wario has no projectile, try to rack up as much damage as you can with it. However, if you are at a disadvantage in the match and must approach, your options are limited compared to most other characters. Wario's bite attack (neutral B) can stop you dead in your tracks and rack up free damage. The safest way to approach is with the aid of a T-jolt. Full hop one, and run towards wario. If he shields the T-jolt, which he probably will, you can grab him. If he jumps over it, another likely possibility, you can be under him and start comboing him with u-air, since it will hit through wario's dair, so you can go to uair combo/fair or whatever else tickles your fancy.

Off the ledge

This is the one place that pikachu has the advantage. Wario's recovery is good enough, but is VERY punishable. Most likely, the first thing that they will do is bike, and jump off of it. Fall down with them and nair, or just shoot a well placed T-jolt to knock them off. This will force them to double jump, and up-b. Wario's Up-b DOES NOT AUTOSWEETSPOT!! He has to be melee-like and cling low to the edge, because if mistimed, he will 100% go over the edge and you can hit him with whatever you like. Pikachu's recovery, adversely, is varying, and you can go at tons of different angles, leaving the wario guessing.

When wario knocks you off the level, try to sweetspot the ledge as quick as possible. If wario is going after you, watch out for the jump-gimping fairs, and surprisingly strong bairs that can kill you if you aren't ready for it. If you see a wario is just staying on the level waiting to ledge-hog you, use your DJ and QA above the level. However, this can be a mindgame, so try to go at an angle that would sweetspot it or not. He might just be mindgaming you to get an F-smash or fart. A drop down fart can be lethal, as most times he hits you with farts are, so be very conscience of the timer.

Fart/Thunder

Farting is wario's #1 kill move far and away. The charge that has the strongest knockback for his fart is from 1 minute to 1:55, it can kill pikachu at 30%. If you are playing wario, make sure that the timer is on, so you can tell when he has it. The point that does the most damage is after 1:55. It does 40%, has some killing potential, but not even as much as his F-Smash. Beware of this move, and be conscience of the time always. When you knock wario away, glance at the time. When he uses it, look at the time so you can base when he will probably use it next. This is wario's most dangerous move in his entire arsenal.

Thunder, on the other hand, doesn't work too well against wario. Sure, it can disrupt recovery, but wario has a lot of horizontal movement in the air, which renders it very situational. You will want to use this mostly when he is off the cliff to disrupt his recovery, or when he is recovering high with his bike.

Killing
Wario DEFINITELY has the edge while killing. His F-smash, Uair, Fart, and bair off the level can kill pikachu relatively easy, considering he is lightweight. On the other hand, pikachu, although having decent killing potential, must be in close range with wario to even think about killing him. His thunder, a frequently used killing attack for pikachu, is basically useless in this matchup. So, the only think pika can reliably kill with are u-smash, f-smash, and nair. Nair will be somewhat difficult to land due to wario's superiority in the air. F-smash will be difficult to sweetspot since wario is constantly moving, and u-smash will be hard to sweetspot for the same reason. Also, even if you land those attacks, wario is pretty heavy, so your kills will be very difficult to obtain.

Pikachu racks up damage stupidly fast, and can be quite evasive, so it was hard for me to even land hits on him, or even grab him (which is rare for Wario). I feel now that the only advantage we really have is that of killing first. It usually got to the point where at every stock we were quite high in percentages (and close to each other), and then I'd hit him with something and he'd die or I'd survive some kill move. You guys also have a bunch of trixies to help land that kill if we're not perfectly cautious, though.Something neat I found out that is useful against Pika is our uptilt, as it will stop all your thunderbolts and ALL of your aerial approaches, but it's a tad slow, so we have to predict you.

Overall

Wario has the advantage, 55:45
 

Roxas215

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I play a good wario daily and this is a strange matchup. Every wario i faced fight differently so there is no solid gameplan going against warios. Some warios i fought they relied on shield grabs and smash attacks. Others approached from the air with his crazy dair. Wario's bite attack kills pika's evasive game. Also most of hits are multihit so it's better to just block his attacks rather then trying to sidestep. Wario is a big char so he is combo friendly. However pika has a hard time killing him so save your smash attacks. Also pika can't be cg by wario. You also can't gimp his recovery as he will use the bike as a setup 1st. But you can punish the landing lag wario gets from his bike recovery or even land a thunder if he is using the bike in the air. If i had to put numbers i would put 55-45 in wario's favor. Maybe even 60-40 depending on the playstyle. Wario is beatable but he has the advantage in this matchup IMO.

Thats about all i have from my personal experience.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Update on the t-jolts: motorcycle will eat through AND reach pikachu faster then pika can recover when doing a grounded t-jolt. When doing an aerial t-jolt it requires really fine spacing b/c wario's b-air will overcome and hit pika (wario's air DI and 2nd jump makes it more difficult to space the t-jolt).

Anyways, my experience with facing wario comes by facing LoZr's wario, the former #1 of North Carolina tourneys. And to be honest, its REAL hard if one doesn't know what to do.

First and formost, watch out for the 2nd jumps b/c whether they 2nd jump and d-air or just d-air on first jump the d-air comes out almost at the same time (not really but b/c Wario's DI is crazy and d-air can fastfall with hi-priority, he can chase and punish a roll/spotdodge/jump). The d-air has massive shield-poke properties, so if your shield isn't 100% fresh the moment the first hit of d-air lands, then don't shield, spotdodge/roll instead (powershield also works). Most of the time, wario's let people's shield shrink by doing a 2nd jump when their victims expect the d-air coming. If they land in facing you, they'll most likely be grabbing; if they land facing away, expect a foward smash. D-air's will also cancel t-jolts if done correctly. D-air leads to combos and gets wario back to the ground fast. Try to stay to the side of him and knick him with the tip of u-air. That or thunder to ward wario off from the air.

When Grabbed. Wario's grab release is somewhat annoying because his foward smash has super armor frames. One thing to note, wario (tested and confirmed) has the shortest grab length out of all characters. If you're getting grabbed constantly, remember its because he's mindgaming you, he's got good knowledge/spacing with his dash-grab and you don't, or (hope this doesn't apply to any of you) you're deliberately letting him grab you. I find the back-throw and grab-release most devastating b/c if you sheild he can grab you, if you attack or jump he can smash you, if you spotdodge he can d-smash, if you roll he can dash attack or motorcycle you. So if you're being read like a book, you'll take damage either way. If find rolling better than the others because you can recover even if you get hit and regain momentum. Grabbing him right back will work also in many cases if he gives you the chance. Grabbing out-prioritizes super-armor so i guess pika's should try it.

Oh! gotta go to a christmas party.... i'll continue later. :D

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, LDPK, still a fledgeling shashboards'er
 

KayLo!

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I don't know this matchup very well, so I can't be very helpful at all, but...

- You have to be creative with your approaches because of his bite attack. Definitely avoid charging in.
- His good aerial movement means that thunder is a little less reliable than usual and should be used with caution.
- If he leaves his bike on the ground, I try to get between him and the bike and knock him far off the stage in the opposite direction. Having no bike limits his recovery options, and he can no longer do Bike Braking (not sure how useful it is in the first place, but removing it is nevertheless to your advantage).
- If he's flashing, watch out for the fart. It's not hard to shield or avoid in general, but if you somehow forget he has it, you're just begging to lose a stock in an embarrassing way.
- Space your jolts carefully. One of his tilts (the finger-poking one... I think it's his d-tilt?) cancels them, and he can easily jump over them and be in your face very quickly due to his speedy air movement.

Sorry I can't give much more than that... I really don't have much Wario experience at all.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Part 2 of my experiences:

If you're frustrated with f-smash, start grabbing/pivot-grabbing/wave-grabbing/ANY-grabbing. His super-armor can out-prioritize a well placed grab--even the dash-grab. Watch out when doing d-smashes because wario's f-smash's super armor frames (if well timed) will eat through the first 1-2 hitboxes of D-smash and either cancel you out of d-smash with just pikachu flying away, or trade hits and both characters fly (wario's knockback is like when he DI's out of d-smash/pikachu get hit with f-smash). Do d-smashes when Wario's are still in air (it can out-prioritize d-air) but be careful of double jump (can't stress that enough). My suggested strategy for aggressive wario's is staying grounded near ledge while baiting the wario to use his double-jump > d-air or other aerial towards you. If they fall for the trap, d-smash so that they hit on the side of d-smash facing towards the center of the stage; that way, if they DI early or late, they'll spit out off stage at a low trajectory without a double jump. The motorcycle can be read easily (not really but at least easier) from there and be punished with something like thunder.

About aerials other than d-air, his f-air can be used twice before landing and it lands with little lag. If wario's use this move, they are strictly spacing (if over land) or jump-sniping>gimp (if offstage). This move cannot really kill sideways offstage, so if you see wario's persue you facing towards you, expect some light attacks that just make you fall lower and lower (then the wario will most likely ledge-grab). His b-air is a KILL MOVE. Compared to f-air it has considerably higher chances of killing pika offstage leading to quick sideways gimp. The key is that wario's AMAZING double-jump>side-DI will catch most recovering opponents offguard (wario can literally hit off-screen with b-air and AND STILL MAKE IT BACK TO STAGE without fart). What can a pika do? B-air will out-beat skull bash most of the time. Airdodge may be good IF AND ONLY IF you are prepared for an u-air. The WArio can make use of your DI (most of the time upwards if you're expecting to recieve a sideways-killing move) and u-air (wario's STRONGEST AERIAL) you to an early star death. My more successfull plans to getting back on stage is fast-falling with f-air or d-air depending on situation as fast and low as possible while still having a 2nd jump. Most wario's use b-air at peak of 2nd jump and it is riskier for wario's if they have to attack an opponent that low (especially pikachus with 2nd jump and QA left). Wario's u-air still poses a slight risk if you're against those crazier wario's or one with a fart left. Just go as low as you can while still being able to QA up. If the wario is far enough, forget 2nd jump and just QA sweetspot as fast as possible. If wario is close enough and going for a ledgegrab, use 2nd jump and QA past the ledge onto the stage. After that is all ledge/ground stategies.

I need to go to sleep now... but i'll finish with my experiences with bite, fart, and wario's tilts later.

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, LDPK, still a fledgeling smashboards'er
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Countering his bite is somewhat straightfoward: f-smash (tip), thunder, or t-jolt will beat it all the time. It's just that the bite is used to counter aggressive approaches and really bogs down QaC assaults. Another thing to know about bite is that it does not renew second jumps so be wary if wario spits you offstage. Some wario's can bite offstage facing towards stage attempting to stage-spike you. So just watch out and remember your spacing. From behind, the hitbox of bite is smaller so a high QaC behind him should help before he's done with bite.

The fart .... oh nvm... ESAM's already got it covered. Just wanted to emphasize that wario does have INVINCIBILITY frames on his fart.

His tilts are pretty much the same as most other mario char's. u-tilt can set up for juggles (can't really kill at low damages). Foward tilt is lagged a bit but still quick and can kill and offguard opponent. His d-tilt has amazing range and can poke especially players who shield wario's d-air. Just roll away if wario is facing towards you or jump away. If you have a fresh shield you can angle it downwards to block f-tilt/d-tilt and follow up with a grab and mindgames. His d-tilt can't really be spammed as fast as pika's.

My best advice for approaching is to shoot one thunder jolt from a distance and just glance at what type of wario you're possibly playing against. QaC triangle to get closer or attack but once the wario starts using bite, mix in some stationary QaC's and retreating ones (QaC for placement rather than for dmg). The key to look for is whether they DI backwards after their jumps and aerials. The time to advance is when he's retreating from the peak of an aerial. That's about the only surefire opening that works against any wario so far (just from my experiences however). Get used to the range and timing of his aerials and advance when wario's about to land. Once you get closer, its all mindgame from there. Super armor beats normal attacks, grabs beat super armor, dodges beat grabs, multi-hits (jabs and d-smash and maybe tilts) beat spot-dodges, and shield/super-armor beats multi-hits. So really if both character's are fully grounded, i'd say its really even. Punish wario's landing lags, pikachu's t-jolt, pikachu's d-smash against aerials, and QaC for spacing.

Overall, because of the multi-hit attacks, amazing DI, and power moves wario is a hard match-up. If the wario plays offensively, then it should be a much easier match. If the wario plays defensively (with zoning f-airs and d-airs and motorcycle barriers) use more t-jolt and QaC for spacing. Try to mindgame the wario into offense as much as possible. Just because of the sheer number of hi-priority setups > kill moves wario has I'd say the matchup is 70:30 strictly in terms of killing ability. Most of the same advantages pikachu has, wario has them to. Overall speed, projectiles, and recovery make pikachu superior. If one knows all of wario's movesets and hitboxes, the match comes closer to 50:50 but still slightly in wario's favor because of his aerial kill moves.

In my opinion, this matchup is a lot more of a matchup between "minds" rather than any kind of matchup between characters if you're playing a decent wario.

Hope this experience helps.

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, LDPK, still a fledgeling smashboards'er
 

PKNintendo

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Wario has always been bad when being grabbed. Pikachu does not have a CG on wario, but has many options out of grab release. Unfortunately, these opportunities only come when they release from the air. Most smart Warios will get out from the ground. However, from the air, you can Nair, U-smash, D-smash, and you can footstool to QA, which can lead to another grab. When wario releases to the ground, the only thing you can do is jab.

Wario has the shortest grab range in the game. Pika cannot be CG'd by Wario's D-throw, but you should still jump away, otherwise you will get hit by his massive shoulder. You could also shield in this situation, but wario may grab you again, so its all about tricking him and hopefully avoiding his attacks.
Bull**** posts right there. Wario has good grab range. The worst grab ranges are probably Ness or IC.
Grab release to jab is impossible, since everyone (cept Ness/Lucas) breaks at frame 30. Unless your bowser, that won't happen.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196207
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Whoa. My mistake. Sorry guys... didn't realize my grab length info was totally outdated. Thanks PKNintendo for the update.

Sincerely,
Legendary Pikachu, LDPK, obviously still a fledgeling smashboards'er.
 

!Boom!

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Ill have a lot to add and a lot to add to legendary pikachu's posts. But i have no time right now since im in san diego. I will either be back tomorrow night or held up a few more days.

Merry Christmas everyone and have a great New Years.
 

DMG

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Just a few things I wanna point out:

Wario can Fsmash immediately after the last hit of Dair if he fastfalls it right. At lower %'s, he can hit you with every hit of Dair and then Fsmash, doing more than 30% combined. This will work anywhere from about 0-25% on the last Dair hit (meaning if you are at 25% or under after the last Dair hitbox, then Fsmash will probably connect.)

I don't think Waft has invincibility frames, I know it has super armor on the fully charged Waft but that is probably it.

Also for Dthrow, your best option is usually to shield and then roll away from Wario. Now obviously we can chase and punish this if we see it coming, but generally that option makes Wario work the hardest on predicting you since he has to go further to catch you.

As for the Matchup Numbers, 60:40 sounds about right. Pika has a hard time landing something powerful on Wario, and then when he does Wario usually lives with his weight and recovery. I find that is the main problem Pika runs into vs Wario whenever he needs Wario dead lol.
 

stnapknah

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Just to let you know, a fresh nair kills off the edge too. I'm not sure at what percentage but I'd guess somewhere around or below 100 for pika depending on how close you are to the edge of the level.
 

PhantomX

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For the record. Full Waft is the only one that has superarmor, but the other ones come out on 5th frame. Also, pretty much all of Wario's aerials destroy thunderjolts, either grounded or aerial. I've always felt this machtup is decidedly in Wario's favor. Stay REALLY mobile, abuse fair, as it beats Wario in the air and is quick, try to land fsmashes on misspaced stuff, upsmash is easier to avoid (from my experience.

I'd say 65:35 for Wario at best, 60:40 at worst.
 

Roxas215

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For the record. Full Waft is the only one that has superarmor, but the other ones come out on 5th frame. Also, pretty much all of Wario's aerials destroy thunderjolts, either grounded or aerial. I've always felt this machtup is decidedly in Wario's favor. Stay REALLY mobile, abuse fair, as it beats Wario in the air and is quick, try to land fsmashes on misspaced stuff, upsmash is easier to avoid (from my experience.

I'd say 65:35 for Wario at best, 60:40 at worst.
Yea i agree with this. Like i said in my 1st post fair is really helpful in this matchup.
 

PhantomX

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Some Wario = me, lol. I played KPrime recently and he's by far better than any other Pikachu I've ever faced.

He would rack up damage stupidly fast, and was quite evasive, so it was hard for me to even land hits on him, or even grab him (which is rare for Wario). I feel now that the only advantage we really have is that of killing first. It usually got to the point where at every stock we were quite high in percentages (and close to each other), and then I'd hit him with something and he'd die or I'd survive some kill move. You guys also have a bunch of trixies to help land that kill if we're not perfectly cautious, though.

I would revise my listing to 55:45 Wario. Something neat I found out that is useful against Pika is our uptilt, as it will stop all your thunderbolts and ALL of your aerial approaches, but it's a tad slow, so we have to predict you.
 

PUNK9

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I would help with this MU. but I'v never fought a Wario(a good one anyway) So i can't say anything.:/
 
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