Toon Link's Match-Up Discussion #23 - Pokémon Trainer

Yo VG. I'd be glad to help. From experiences with my fellow PT members, I'd Have to give a ratio of 60:40 in TL's favor. It could be closer, but I'm the only guy I know who plays a TL on the PT boards.

Squirtle- fast, lilke a PT version of TL but with claws not and sword or projectiles, can cause trouble for TL when trying to do most things but over all has a disadvantage cuz bombs work well as well as boomeraang. (closely matched)

Ivy- lag after just about every attack. only has razor leaf as a range attack while TL has 3. TL can easily combo him(Bair for instance). Ivy has virually no ledge game and TL and lege guard him by chining the lege and plus TL can regain invinibility frames 2 more times with Z-tilt. TL may have trouble with the razor leaf though, Ivy's Bair is decent as is his Nair which could become a threat, Ivy is a good finisher and TL is quite floaty despite his good DI. Overall I would give the favor in a tie, they both got decent range and spacing skills. Just about all of PT's pokemon have decent DI so Fsmashing them for the kill will fail if DI'd correctly.

Charz- He's a heavy weight though in this case I'd give the favor to Charz. Charz has a good grabing game, he has flamethrower(even though TL can DI easily out of it but still damage is damage), he has rock smash(ftw) and his spot dodging-down smash is beat as well. TL can still out camp Charz but TL is still floaty and if hit with a good rock smash or Fsmash he is toast.

Feel free anyone else to correct me or add anything i may have said wrong or missed.

If it's a disadvantage, a neutral, and an advantage...How is this in TL's favor of 60:40?

Charizard
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Trainer

Tether recovery for Ivysaur.
They will throw a razor leaf before trying to recover, just like we throw bombs/boomerangs.

Charizard has a pretty powerful Up B (and can be done OOS I think)
His D-Tilt is actually quite quick.

I'd say TL's hardest matchup is Red. If that doesn't work then it's Squirtle. Definetly Squirtles. He's fast, can shell slide through our projectiles (?), is small, and his grabs can cause us large amounts of trouble.

Charizard and Ivysaur are easy to combo and can be distanced with zair and any other projectiles.

None of them have great projectiles, so distance should be kept.

I'd say projectile spam on the plant and reptile, and stay safe with that turtle. It isn't all that hard of a matchup. I say it goes in TL's favor, 60:40.

squirtle has an advantage, honestly. tlink can hardly space squirtle at all. water gun lols at all three projectiles and squirtle is fast and small enough to hit as it is. squirtle is tiny enough that zair spacing is annoying to even attempt. up close, squirtle wins out. his attacks are much quicker. although tlink's hitboxes are disjointed, they don't come out quick enough (like yoshi) or have enough range (like marth, ike) to space squirtle well. tlink unfortunately doesn't excel at either, which you need against squirtle. squirtle's grab game is almost as good as charizard's, and more effective here because he's so small and mobile. he can slide 1/2 to 3/4 of battlefield as he does his grab during a hydrowhatever.

squirtle outspeeds anything TL can do at ANY point. this is at least 60:40 advantage squirtle.

water gun really bothers tlink's up b recovery, but can be easily avoided with that tether.

tlink>ivysaur far away, but ivysaur is not bothered by projectiles as much as most other characters. ivy's bair easily cancels out arrows and boomerangs, and comes out in 4 frames with very little cooldown. razor leaf cancels out boomerang and arrows. TL's projectiles are about as easy to PS as Ivy's own Razor Leaf is. you won't be able to keep ivy out of your hair for very long.

Ivysaur

Forward Air: 14
Back Air: 4
Down Air: 11
Up Air: 12
Neutral Air: 4

Toon Link

Forward Air: 14
Back Air: 6
Down Air: 11
Up Air: 11
Neutral Air: 6

really similar, ivysaur's bair has pretty equivalent range to TL's own zair. not sure how quickly TL's zair activates, but i'd say zair and bair are on very even footing.

on the ground...

Ivysaur
Jab: 7

Forward Tilt: 6
Up Tilt: 9
Down Tilt: 4
Dash Attack: 4

Toon Link

Jab: 6

Forward Tilt: 11
Up Tilt: 8
Down Tilt: 9
Dash Attack: 9

again, ivysaur kind of wins here. ivy's ftilt outranges all of TL's tilts. for real. same for jab. TL's smash attacks are fairly quick, but i assume that he really needs to save them to kill, because if you use your smashes early on ivy and ivy ends up switching to charizard at the end of its stock...you'll hate yourself for it.

ivysaur needs to pressure you very well with nair combos into utilt and bullet seed, bair chains, and the like. honestly once ivysaur gets inside all the projectiles, TL will have a tough time getting ivy back out. i think 55:45 TL's favor is pretty reasonable.

Charizard...

charizard is bothered by the projectiles moreso than Ivysaur is. it's not hopeless though. far away, yeah, charizard will just have to get in there somehow. fortunately zard has the 7th fastest dash speed in the game to aid him somewhat. at midrange, TL's spacing is muuuuuch less effective because of zard's specials.

flamethrower cancels arrows and boomerangs out. it's an excellent approach when shorthopped at mid distance, because it outranges zair.

rock smash. rock smash also cancels boomerangs and arrows out, and breaks on impact with these moves, causing tons of hitboxes to come out before they normally do. rock smash does a TON of damage guys, and that's bad bad bad for toon link. the thing is that toon link has a lot of trouble killing heavy characters. charizard does not have trouble doing huge damage to opponents in a short amount of time (flamethrower and a move that can do 45% in 2 seconds) and lots of powerful kill options. charizard can wreck TL up close if you aren't careful. zard's grab itself is probably the best in the game. maybe second behind dedede's. but zard's grab has more range than ddd's, and charizard has RIDICULOUS dash speed for how big he is and how big that grab range is. powershielded zair can be punished with a simple dash grab if you aren't careful. zair spacing is pretty effective against zard, just be careful. charizard is NOT like all the other heavyweights out there, he can get inside VERY quickly and start beating you up.

overall, i'd say about 55:45 TL's advantage or 60:40. if the charizard knows how to handle most bomb setups into kill moves, then his stock will probably last longer than yours. remember, charizard has the 7th fastest dash speed and 13th-14th fastest air speed. charizard is big, but not slow at all.

It's a bit hard for me to tell for the match up due to lack of fighting TL's . All I know is that it is a pretty close match up. Steeler's ratio is agreeable on my terms. If it were a radical ratio then both PT and TL would be an even match and it could sway either way but that is on a radical ratio. Still, for me it is uncertain seeing as that, knowing the moves of each character and how they can be used in an organised evironment(watching youtube vids and playing friends) it would occur to me as an almost even match between these two guys.

Stil remeber guys, I'm like the only TL and PT I know that participates in Gameware tournies and I dont have any other PT guys to fight either. Not like I have as much experience fighting guys that use the same people as me =/

Cant really help here
I stopped researching them
When the hydro plane turn out difficult for me to catch on to.
Sorry VG I fail
D:


@Bomer7
wth...squirtle doesn't have claws...

@TLM
Nice over view except Squirtle is not even with Toon Link
D:
I researched Squirtle the most out of all of them.
His in shell animations give him invernurability frames...
He is quicker than Toon Link in every way beside Up and down smash.(You basically said this TLM just I was being alittle more sepsific is all)
He doesn't have as good of aerial DI as Wario or Jiggs.
His aerials are just extremely quick.
But he has good aerial DI.
And projectiles dont really bother him or zair hes alittle too short and fast...
Shell Shifting makes his motions alittle unpredictable.
So hitting him with projectiles are not that easy or effective.
Just my additions on rant what so ever.

imo,

6:4 squirtle
45:55 ivysaur
45:55 charizard

50:50 overall

whatever specifics we argue about, i think this is overall a pretty even matchup.

no more to be said here. thanks Steeler.

lol that's not the end of it. i'm sure the TL's will argue against charizard, and probably ivysaur.

Charizard pwns everyone.
Who cares about Ivy.

Even matchup just because of badass charizard players like Santi

@Steeler
Hmmm
Doesn't look like anythings wrong besides Toon Link having trouble killing heavies isn't as bad as it looks you stressed it
Uair (one of our most used ways to kill) will be easy to hit so one like Zard and his nice sized hurt box.
But of course there are reactions to our actions not say upair will always hit.
But if it does :X
Thousand years of death anyone?(lol Naruto)

But yea its fine to me.

Charizard: Spam + Zair.
Ivy: Nair + Zair.
Stuirtle: Nair, Bair + Zair.

Santi said:

Charizard pwns everyone.
Who cares about Ivy.

Even matchup just because of badass charizard players like Santi

Click to expand...

if Toon Link could pull a boulder out of nowhere and break it with his head like Charizard does...

how good would Toon Nasty be?

Steeler said:

imo,

6:4 squirtle
45:55 ivysaur
45:55 charizard

50:50 overall

whatever specifics we argue about, i think this is overall a pretty even matchup.

Click to expand...

When I first read this hours ago...I could not make sense of it.

Now...reading again hours later...nope.

How does three advantageous match-ups = even?

I mean I know Toon Link's head is as big as the Rock Smash boulder but that's no reason to skew your logic. o_o

squirtle has the advantage, ivysaur and charizard both have to work a tad bit harder than tl does.

if i really wanted to nail you guys i could say that the overall pt matchup is [PT 55/45 TL] because ivysaur's greatest weak is gimpage while zard's greatest weak is comboz at low percent...and switching ivysaur out at mid percent perfectly solves both problems. so let's say squirtle is out for two stocks (6/4 advantage 66% of the time) and the second stock is split between ivysaur and charizard. on paper it looks like a 45/55 matchup for PT, but a smart switch could very easily make it 55/45 the other way, or even 6/4 for pt. so 6/4 advantage 66% of the time and 55/45 33% of the time sounds like something between 6/4 advantage and 55/45 neutral.

lots of numberz x__x

just an example of how PT is better than just the average of the three pokes.

VietGeek said:

When I first read this hours ago...I could not make sense of it.

Now...reading again hours later...nope.

How does three advantageous match-ups = even?

I mean I know Toon Link's head is as big as the Rock Smash boulder but that's no reason to skew your logic. o_o

Click to expand...

Hes just got the name of the pokemon with out Toon Link.
He means
Squirtle 6:4 Squirtles favor
Ivysaur 45:55 Toon Links favor
Charizard 45:55 Toon Links favor

he just has the numbers in the PT perspective.

Get it now?

Oh...mmkay. People usually put the name of the char. on the side that wins the statistical advantage, Steeler is weird (no offense).

He also used to have by far the longest name in SWF history but eh...

Thanks Steeler, time and time again it seems you're the PT rep. You're truly the guy to go to for Pokemon Trainer info.

i'm just one of the only guys that cares enough to sit down and argue over the internet.

Yo, I **** ivy and charizard......squirtle is a small problem for me tho. WTF this match is not even.....more like 60-40 TL.