-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Toon Link's Match-Up Discussion #24 - Bowser
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
UGGGHHH.
I hate his matchup.
Regardless, it isn't unwinnable for Bowser, but it's insanely hard.
First of all, your projectiles **** us. Hard. If you camp us we have but only a few decisions to approach with, and makes it very hard in doing so.
If I remember right, Bowser's neutral air out prioritizes you arrows and boomerang. This makes for a viable counter to projectiles (minus bombs), but you can punish us if you see it coming.
Also, if we are able to grab you, we have a variety of options to choose from during a ground break, including Bowser Bomb, Koopa Klaw, dtilt, ftilt, jab, etc.
Stages with platforms I would believe help Bowser somewhat in this match up, especially since your dair cant go through.
I play a Tink semi-regularly, so I sort of know what to look out for, like Zair > Nair > Arrow, etc, which tears Bowser apart since he's huge.
But like I said this matchup isn't unwinnable for us, as much as it is incredibly hard. Especially since Toon Link is pretty light, we can get a few good nicks in and your done.
I'd say this matchup is about 65-35 Tink. Maybe a bit more in his favor, but I'll stick with 65/35.
I hate his matchup.
Regardless, it isn't unwinnable for Bowser, but it's insanely hard.
First of all, your projectiles **** us. Hard. If you camp us we have but only a few decisions to approach with, and makes it very hard in doing so.
If I remember right, Bowser's neutral air out prioritizes you arrows and boomerang. This makes for a viable counter to projectiles (minus bombs), but you can punish us if you see it coming.
Also, if we are able to grab you, we have a variety of options to choose from during a ground break, including Bowser Bomb, Koopa Klaw, dtilt, ftilt, jab, etc.
Stages with platforms I would believe help Bowser somewhat in this match up, especially since your dair cant go through.
I play a Tink semi-regularly, so I sort of know what to look out for, like Zair > Nair > Arrow, etc, which tears Bowser apart since he's huge.
But like I said this matchup isn't unwinnable for us, as much as it is incredibly hard. Especially since Toon Link is pretty light, we can get a few good nicks in and your done.
I'd say this matchup is about 65-35 Tink. Maybe a bit more in his favor, but I'll stick with 65/35.
LinIsKorean
Smash Journeyman
Bowser has a difficult time fighting Toon Link, I'd say it's 65 : 35 Toon Link.
First off, Toon Link can easily out-camp Bowser with his myriad of projectiles. As I'm sure most of you know, Bowser is terrible at long-range combat, while Toon Link does not. Mid-Range, Bowser also gets out-done. Most of Toon Link's attacks can outrange Bowser's, especially Toon Link's aerials. However, once Bowser gets close enough to screw up your spacing, his pressure game is immense. Bowser's f-tilt has great range, which he'll be using to either clank with projectiles or to simply space and hit you. Bowser's OoS game is also incredible, so if you're close enough and you hit his shield, expect a few Up+B's. Bowser's aerials are outranged by Toon Link's so good spacing should keep you safe, although Bowser's F-air is quite decent. However, most of Bowser's tools are rendered useless against Toon Link. If he tries to Flame, Toon Link can just DI downwards and use his shield to stop the fire and then procede to punish Bowser. Rolling against Bowser is a bad idea, a good Bowser will read you and start throwing D-Smashes into you as you roll. Beware of grab-releases as well, Bowser can easily score an early KO if you aren't careful.
This matchup is all about Toon Link's spacing. If Toon Link stays away from Bowser for most of the match, he should be fine.
First off, Toon Link can easily out-camp Bowser with his myriad of projectiles. As I'm sure most of you know, Bowser is terrible at long-range combat, while Toon Link does not. Mid-Range, Bowser also gets out-done. Most of Toon Link's attacks can outrange Bowser's, especially Toon Link's aerials. However, once Bowser gets close enough to screw up your spacing, his pressure game is immense. Bowser's f-tilt has great range, which he'll be using to either clank with projectiles or to simply space and hit you. Bowser's OoS game is also incredible, so if you're close enough and you hit his shield, expect a few Up+B's. Bowser's aerials are outranged by Toon Link's so good spacing should keep you safe, although Bowser's F-air is quite decent. However, most of Bowser's tools are rendered useless against Toon Link. If he tries to Flame, Toon Link can just DI downwards and use his shield to stop the fire and then procede to punish Bowser. Rolling against Bowser is a bad idea, a good Bowser will read you and start throwing D-Smashes into you as you roll. Beware of grab-releases as well, Bowser can easily score an early KO if you aren't careful.
This matchup is all about Toon Link's spacing. If Toon Link stays away from Bowser for most of the match, he should be fine.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
B-air helps. There rest is mostly said.
BTW, Bowser won't die up to 150% with reasonable DI.
BTW, Bowser won't die up to 150% with reasonable DI.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Set up the projectile wall, and you win. 
In all seriousness though, the matchup isn't as simple as that. Bowser is big, so he's very susceptible to the projectile wall that Link can put up. However most Bowser players literally live inside of their shields, so Bowser players are usually better at powershielding projectiles. (I'm not kidding about this. Shielding for Bowser is like Spot Dodging for ROB. It's like crack to us.) Even do, it's best to keep your distance as long as possible. Bowser will be forced to approach in this matchup, so you mind as well hinder that approach as much as possible with projectiles.
Once he gets closer, then what do you do? Why, use your Zair! It's always important to keep your distance in this matchup, otherwise Bowser can start getting the upper hand with his close-range game. If you're using the Zair, make sure you're spacing it well. You don't want to get hit by a Fortress OoS.
When Bowser actually does get close to you, then you need to watch playing carefully. Bowser's jabs come out fast and have excellent range and priority. (Bowser's Jabs outrange Pit's Fsmash and actually clank with it, if you can believe that.) His Tilts, most notably his Ftilt, outrange most of Link's non-projectile ground attacks. A Bowser that can space well can make life a living hell for you, but that works both ways. Like started before, well spaced Zairs are very annoying.
Projectiles aside, it's not a good idea to get aggressive in this matchup. It's never a good idea for any character to go aggro against Bowser. That's because Bowser has one of the best OoS punishers in the game, the Fortress. The Fortress has invincibility frames on startup and it comes out near instantly to boot. Sadly, it doesn't have the killing power that it's Melee counterpart had, but it still works excellently OoS, and it does solid amounts of damage to boot. (It can still kill at higher percentages. Maybe 110% fresh for Link.) This is why it's important to space your attacks properly. Sadly, Link doesn't have the same amount of range that Marth and Meta do, so it's a bit harder for him to space well against Bowser, unless you're spamming projectiles, which you should be.
Oh, and it's important not to get grabbed by Bowser. Ever. Bowser has the best grab releases in the game, and he can wreck total havoc on almost the entire cast, Link included. Link really isn't more vulnerable to grab releases then any other character, but Bowser can still do a lot of crap to him out of a grab. If you get a ground release, Bowser can simply grab you over and over again, pummeling you for more damage. If he wants, he can Klaw you out of a grab release as well, which will do a sizable 18% right on the spot. According to Vex's testing, the Bowser Bomb also works on Link from a grab release. You need to watch out for that, since it's a potential killing move at like 80%. (I usually don't Bowser Bomb out of a grab release unless I'm fighting Lucas or Ness. My timing is pretty bad for the Bomb.) And if you ever try to jump out of Bowser's grab, he can just Fair you. So it's a pretty bad situation either way. Just try to avoid the grab.
And you need to beware of the Utilt. Bowser's Utilt deserves an entire paragraph just to explain it's awesomeness. The Utilt is simply that good. It comes out fast, has an absolutely bogus hitbox, and it has craploads of priority. Oh, and it kills at like 105%, which is pretty darn strong. The hitbox needs to be mentioned again, because it's simply that big. The Utilt hitbox can beat out all of Link's aerials if properly spaced, except for the Dair. (But hardly anything can beat that out anyway.) So yeah, just watch out for this, especially if there's lots of platforms around. Bowser likes platforms BTW. Almost as much as Olimar.
And it seems silly for me to mention it, but avoid the Fsmash. Any competent Bowser will not spam the Fsmash at you, but they will use it to trick you. The Fsmash has a very deceptive hitbox, and a huge drawback animation. I actually use the Fsmash drawback to dodge smashes and counterattack. (Good times.) Oh, and FSMASH EDGEGUARD LOLOLOLOL!!!
In the end, I think the matchup is 70-30 in Bowser's favor, just because he's awesome.
Seriously though, 60-40 in Link's favor, which is a pretty decent advantage.
In all seriousness though, the matchup isn't as simple as that. Bowser is big, so he's very susceptible to the projectile wall that Link can put up. However most Bowser players literally live inside of their shields, so Bowser players are usually better at powershielding projectiles. (I'm not kidding about this. Shielding for Bowser is like Spot Dodging for ROB. It's like crack to us.) Even do, it's best to keep your distance as long as possible. Bowser will be forced to approach in this matchup, so you mind as well hinder that approach as much as possible with projectiles.
Once he gets closer, then what do you do? Why, use your Zair! It's always important to keep your distance in this matchup, otherwise Bowser can start getting the upper hand with his close-range game. If you're using the Zair, make sure you're spacing it well. You don't want to get hit by a Fortress OoS.
When Bowser actually does get close to you, then you need to watch playing carefully. Bowser's jabs come out fast and have excellent range and priority. (Bowser's Jabs outrange Pit's Fsmash and actually clank with it, if you can believe that.) His Tilts, most notably his Ftilt, outrange most of Link's non-projectile ground attacks. A Bowser that can space well can make life a living hell for you, but that works both ways. Like started before, well spaced Zairs are very annoying.
Projectiles aside, it's not a good idea to get aggressive in this matchup. It's never a good idea for any character to go aggro against Bowser. That's because Bowser has one of the best OoS punishers in the game, the Fortress. The Fortress has invincibility frames on startup and it comes out near instantly to boot. Sadly, it doesn't have the killing power that it's Melee counterpart had, but it still works excellently OoS, and it does solid amounts of damage to boot. (It can still kill at higher percentages. Maybe 110% fresh for Link.) This is why it's important to space your attacks properly. Sadly, Link doesn't have the same amount of range that Marth and Meta do, so it's a bit harder for him to space well against Bowser, unless you're spamming projectiles, which you should be.
Oh, and it's important not to get grabbed by Bowser. Ever. Bowser has the best grab releases in the game, and he can wreck total havoc on almost the entire cast, Link included. Link really isn't more vulnerable to grab releases then any other character, but Bowser can still do a lot of crap to him out of a grab. If you get a ground release, Bowser can simply grab you over and over again, pummeling you for more damage. If he wants, he can Klaw you out of a grab release as well, which will do a sizable 18% right on the spot. According to Vex's testing, the Bowser Bomb also works on Link from a grab release. You need to watch out for that, since it's a potential killing move at like 80%. (I usually don't Bowser Bomb out of a grab release unless I'm fighting Lucas or Ness. My timing is pretty bad for the Bomb.) And if you ever try to jump out of Bowser's grab, he can just Fair you. So it's a pretty bad situation either way. Just try to avoid the grab.
And you need to beware of the Utilt. Bowser's Utilt deserves an entire paragraph just to explain it's awesomeness. The Utilt is simply that good. It comes out fast, has an absolutely bogus hitbox, and it has craploads of priority. Oh, and it kills at like 105%, which is pretty darn strong. The hitbox needs to be mentioned again, because it's simply that big. The Utilt hitbox can beat out all of Link's aerials if properly spaced, except for the Dair. (But hardly anything can beat that out anyway.) So yeah, just watch out for this, especially if there's lots of platforms around. Bowser likes platforms BTW. Almost as much as Olimar.
And it seems silly for me to mention it, but avoid the Fsmash. Any competent Bowser will not spam the Fsmash at you, but they will use it to trick you. The Fsmash has a very deceptive hitbox, and a huge drawback animation. I actually use the Fsmash drawback to dodge smashes and counterattack. (Good times.) Oh, and FSMASH EDGEGUARD LOLOLOLOL!!!
In the end, I think the matchup is 70-30 in Bowser's favor, just because he's awesome.
Seriously though, 60-40 in Link's favor, which is a pretty decent advantage.
Aim the fire downwards man.
Yeah, a good Bowser can live forever.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
U-air is just a good Bowser attack, abuse it :D
MrEh
Smash Hero
Uair is ****, but it's hard to land when Link is Dairing everywhere.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
WTF would link be D-airing for? I never see a competative Toon Link D-air when above someone.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Airdodge > D-air, then you do a Koopa Klaw to punish (woot18%), or anything else to have fun. I'm probably going for tonight.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Toon Link wont dair much
But it might pop out since bowser is so fat
Bowser mains covered this pretty well.
I'll read it later
But it might pop out since bowser is so fat
Bowser mains covered this pretty well.
I'll read it later
LinIsKorean
Smash Journeyman
iirc, I think it blocks regardless of where you aim. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I've played any Toon Links.
MrEh
Smash Hero
No, it's not trying to get past the shield.
If they're DIing downwards, you can aim the fire downwards as well. The hitstun from the fire will prevent Link from going to his neutral standing position, and he won't be able to shield it otherwise. Besides, he should just DI out of the fire anyway.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
I hate grab releases. I get jabbed after escaping 
(It's WiFi though so maybe that's why I got grabbed)
Oh yeah so we'll need bombs in our hands to annoy Bowser when he grabs us
(It's WiFi though so maybe that's why I got grabbed)
Oh yeah so we'll need bombs in our hands to annoy Bowser when he grabs us
MrEh
Smash Hero
Grab releases aren't really stopped by Bombs as much as chaingrabs are. Bowser can just grab release Jab or Dtilt if he sees you with a Bomb.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 25,073
- Switch FC
- 8132-9932-4710
Theres no point in going through the trouble of holding a bomb, just to get luck and have it explod after you get released.
You'll just get another fast move throw at you, and with the bomb damage, that makes it even worse then not doing anything.
Its not like Bowser can consecutively grab release you like he can to MK.
You'll just get another fast move throw at you, and with the bomb damage, that makes it even worse then not doing anything.
Its not like Bowser can consecutively grab release you like he can to MK.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Just get a jump release and you're free, after Bowser Fairs you that is.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
Oh ok
so my suggestion sucked lol
so we have to just stay as far away as we can
then we should avoid small stages
so my suggestion sucked lol
so we have to just stay as far away as we can
then we should avoid small stages
MrEh
Smash Hero
Just keep your distance. Put up a projectile wall.
Avoiding small stages is a good idea. Smaller stages usually mean smaller blastlines, and Bowser can KO you at obscenely low percents on those sort of stages.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
Also Bowser will be able to get to you more quickly on a small stage.
How good is Bowser's recovery? I have an idea that it sucks >.<
How good is Bowser's recovery? I have an idea that it sucks >.<
Shadow Moth
Up in the clouds
Horizontally he's decent. I'm not sure about vertical. All I know about his vertical recovery is don't get next to him. His koopa klaw has no flinch frames (LOL, the proof is here at the end. Watch Bowser's damage) and he can use it as an effective upward recovery. Edgehogging is probably your safest bet when he's recovering from below.
Sideways... Meh, just use projectiles. He still has koopa klaw as an option there.
Sideways... Meh, just use projectiles. He still has koopa klaw as an option there.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Vertically it kinda sucks, but horizontally it is good.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Invincibility frames say otherwise.
Lots of horizontal distance, about the same vertical distance of Link's recovery. So it's actually better then most people think.
It doesn't have super armor for the entire thing. It only has it on frame 8, and only if he grabs you with it.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Bowser is already screwed when recovering from below, unless he has his up-B when almost at the edge, which will the knock you off. B-air him off sideways or throws bombs from above. Bowser sucks vertically.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Good thing that Bowser is so heavy.
If he has good DI, he'll probably always end up at the corners of the stage, which means he'll almost never have to recovery vertically. (He has a pretty fast airspeed actually.)
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=horizontal
:D Same for Sonic
But yeah, that's my point, as Bowser you have to get above the ledge to not be screwed. If they want to find a way they will.
:D Same for Sonic
But yeah, that's my point, as Bowser you have to get above the ledge to not be screwed. If they want to find a way they will.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
what happens when you dair Bowser as he uses Side-b?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Depends on where Link and Bowser are.
If Link is coming from above, then obviously Bowser's Klaw won't work. If it's from the side, then it's all based on positioning.
MrEh
Smash Hero
How on Earth would you ever be in a situation to use the Dair like that?I also enjoy Dairing his fire and then pogoing him. A lot of people don't see that coming
O_o
TLMarth
Smash Ace
I think he means going above Bowser while he uses fire.
Though it's probably a rare situation where you get to do that
Though it's probably a rare situation where you get to do that
urdailywater
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2008
- Messages
- 5,563
Can his recovery be easily gimped with dair?
I like this matchup a lot honestly. It's pretty interesting, but very easy at the same time. It's in TL's favor imo.. maybe ahead 10 or 20?
I like this matchup a lot honestly. It's pretty interesting, but very easy at the same time. It's in TL's favor imo.. maybe ahead 10 or 20?
TehDudeAbides
Smash Rookie
60:40 seems fair to me. 70:30 would be just extreme. I'd go with 65:35 cause TL can projectile wall. And yea, Bowser can be D-aired quite easy when doing his up-B. But he moves fast horizontally, so he'll get the edge ASAP.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
@ Water- Its one of the easiest to spike since its trayectory is predictable. But, it is still risky since his upB travels fast and if hes close to the ledge he'll sweetspot and u'll fall to ur doom. >_>
I say it is 65:35 TL.
I say it is 65:35 TL.
MrEh
Smash Hero
This.
Also, if the Bowser player has good timing, he can use the invincibility frames of the Fortress to beat your Dair. I still say it's 60-40, and that's being fair to both characters.
Shadow Moth
Up in the clouds
But if you throw a bomb at him first then he either uses his invincibility frames on the bomb and gets dair'd or he gets hit by the bomb and we are almost back where we started with Bowser and Toon Link is in a position to KO off the side or go for a gimp depending on Bowser's damage.
MrEh
Smash Hero
By that point Bowser will already be grabbing the ledge.
Bowser will either always be within quick grabbing range of the ledge, or he won't use it at all. Remember that Bowser can recover high if he wants.
Shadow Moth
Up in the clouds
Even if you already have the bomb in your hand as you're jumping out there?
Bowser gets owned by Kir- I mean, Toon Link.
Actually, I don't have much experience with this matchup. But I came into this thread thinking that, and it seems I was right.
Pogoing the fire? Sounds fun...when I'm Kirby I always find it amusing when my Final Cutter goes through his fire on the way down and you see a bunch of those "clash" hitboxes.
Does Bowser's Up B have invincibility frames, or superarmor? O_o
Actually, I don't have much experience with this matchup. But I came into this thread thinking that, and it seems I was right.
Pogoing the fire? Sounds fun...when I'm Kirby I always find it amusing when my Final Cutter goes through his fire on the way down and you see a bunch of those "clash" hitboxes.
Does Bowser's Up B have invincibility frames, or superarmor? O_o