Recovering with Ike. Have you been doing it right?

HAVE you? I know I haven't been all this time...

What I am referring to is using aerials or air dodges to slow your momentum after being hit from an attack. After reading through some posts, it gave me some motivation to go and test numerous things.

We all know that aerials are very effective in helping us survive massive knockback. This is true...if you are sent vertically. But did you know that airdodging is actually BETTER than using an aerial when knocked horizontally off the stage? (I'm talking about Ike here...not necessarily true for all characters)

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When testing surviving horizontal trajectories, I put myself at a percent where a Bair/Dair + Fastfall would not save my life. Testing at this same percent, if one would air dodge instead, death would still ensue. However, an air dodge coupled with a jump immediately after WILL save you. A note, DI/Lack of DI was consistent with each test...so no worries there(i.e. all knockback trajectories were the same).

My theory is that since Ike's aerials are all very slow to begin with(his fastest ones being Bair/Dair, lasting 55 frames each), an air dodge is actually better since it enables Ike to act faster, which in turn gives Ike back his air control faster. Using your jump helps in this process as well. Gaining your air control back faster will naturally help slow your momentum further.

Another thing I noticed:

I went and increased the percent until an air dodge + jumping would not save you. I began testing other moves and attacks to see if anything helped. Believe it or not...an airdodge plus jump...PLUS QUICK DRAW saves you further. Note it has to be uncharged, as if you charge the attack, you will die because by activating QD you have foregone your ability to alter your momentum, so you're still moving away from the stage...until QD is released. But, I actually did float all the way back to the ledge...it actually does save you.

Note that this is NOT useful or recommended for two reasons:

-You will be put in a freefall state high above the stage, leaving you vulnerable for a VERY long period of time.
-Tested by being hit with an Ike Fsmash, this method only improved survival by 2% compared to the regular air dodge plus jumping. Not that big of a difference if you ask me.

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Now with vertical trajectories, aerials will do just fine here, since you are able to fastfall in conjunction with them. Ike's fastest aerials are Bair and Dair...which are 55 frames from start to finish. I do suggest you use Dair with the C-stick, since it essentially performs a Dair and a fast fall at the same time(Note: This is with the default control scheme - C-stick set to 'Smash'). Since this is the fastest possible input, it will improve your chance for survival. Plus it's easier to do...but that's just me.

You can't fastfall when you air dodge, so it will not help in surviving a vertical trajectory.

One last note:

No other attacks besides QD help in changing your momentum. I.E. using an aerial after air dodging and jumping does not help you further. Nor do Counter or Aether help in changing your momentum, horizontally or vertically.

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So in the end, do this:

Knocked back horizontally? - Air Dodge + Jump
Knocked back vertically? - Dair + Fastfall

Feel free to comment or discuss this. Questions are welcome to...I'll do my best to answer or test other things that I did not think of.

I always did use the D-air + fastfall when I was hit vertically but I didn't know AD + Jump was best for getting hit horizontally. I would always DI my best to the stage and Aether to get back on. Also,

Kirk said:

Now with vertical trajectories, aerials will do just fine here, since you are able to fastfall in conjunction with them. Ike's fastest aerials are Bair and Dair...which are 55 frames from start to finish. I do suggest you use Dair with the C-stick, since it essentially performs a Dair and a fast fall at the same time. Since this is the fastest possible input, it will improve your chance for survival. Plus it's easier to do...but that's just me.

Click to expand...

Doesn't that only work if the C-stick is on Smash and not tilt? Great job on this btw.

This is probably obvious, but you don't specifically say it. After you have control of your character when recovering from a horizontal hit and can double jump, you should start holding toward the stage, because horizontal air control does help you survive (this is separate from DI). In fact it's possible to come up with situations where air control alone will save you without the need to use the double jump.

XACE-K said:

Doesn't that only work if the C-stick is on Smash and not tilt? Great job on this btw.

Click to expand...

Yep. C-stick set to smashes macros in a fastfall along with a Dair. I should edit that...

ColinJF said:

This is probably obvious, but you don't specifically say it. After you have control of your character when recovering from a horizontal hit and can double jump, you should start holding toward the stage, because horizontal air control does help you survive (this is separate from DI). In fact it's possible to come up with situations where air control alone will save you without the need to use the double jump.

Click to expand...

I wasn't quite specific enough in my explanations I guess hehe. When doing the testings I would be holding towards the stage to ensure the best possible results. My point was that since you can act sooner with the air dodge, you will in turn be able to get back your air control faster...slowing your momentum as a result, naturally.

I tried to survive without jumping, but it didn't seem to work in this particular situation.

Thanks, I'll go edit to make things more clear.

Yes, actually, yes I have. NL discussed it with me a number of weeks ago and I instinctively Dair when being knocked upwards anyway >_>

Yeah, I've been using airdodge and jump (and even the Quickdraw sometimes, usually on Pirate Ship) to recover Horizantal hits. Been using aerials went sent upwards, since... Well... Jumping up when you're at the top of the screen isn't a very good idea if you want to live... ^_^ Anyway, the only problem is.... I've been playing Marth recently, and I'm in the habit of using fair/bair... >_>;; Besides those occasional mistakes though, I've been using dair. xD

Oops... I've been DAir'ing/BAir'ing even when knocked horizontal. Great info Kirk, thanks for this .

Is it also because perpindicular DI attacks are slow when knocked horizontally? I usually FF bair vertically and it actually does seem like I should be surviving some horizontal kills, but unfortunately not.

I've been recovering horizontally correctly, but not vertically. Yays for me. I was just testing this sort of thing yesterday. lulz. I can verify that Counter and Eruption don't help with recovery.

I always suspected this so I air dodge more horizontally than vertically but my friend would always tell me to stop doing that. Now I can tell him he's doing it wrong.

did you test AD > QD ? I think that may save you more than AD > double jump > QD.

Shouldn't you use bair when being hit up cause it comes out 7 frames faster? Just hold down on the control stick while you c stick it.

it's not when the hit box comes out, but when it ends. Dair and Bair both end at frame 55 so theyre exactly the same when ti comes to momentum canceling.

Rykoshet said:

it's not when the hit box comes out, but when it ends. Dair and Bair both end at frame 55 so theyre exactly the same when ti comes to momentum canceling.

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For horizontal, yeah. But for vertical you can fastfall right when the move comes out, you don't have to wait until it ends.

You can fastfall as soon as you initiate the attack. In theory, Bair and Dair should provide the same survivability when knocked back vertically or horizontally.

Just finished some recent testing...I've confirmed that Dair is actually BETTER than Bair when trying to survive vertical knockback...which doesn't quite make sense to me because for one, they technically should be the same...and two, even if the initial hitbox of the attack mattered, Bair would be better.

Confusing...

****, that's really weird. Learn something new though everyday, eh?

Disregard my last post. Upon further inspection, they indeed are the same. Bair and Dair are equally useful in surviving vertically.

:o

At least I managed to recover vertically correctly with Dair.

And I seemed to have better results with Air dodge ->Fair when I tried with my friend
In fact we were trying this out a little while ago after watching infzy's vid on cancelling momentum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njcYW0rFmUg&feature=channel_page

But chances are that we made errors along the way.

Kirk said:

Disregard my last post. Upon further inspection, they indeed are the same. Bair and Dair are equally useful in surviving vertically.

:o

Click to expand...

Really? But don't you auto fast fall when you Dair?

You only fast fall automatically if you were falling in the first place.

Oh, that would explain why you auto fast fall if you try a walkoff Dair. But how does your statement explain why Ikes dont fastfall if they try a walkoff Dair when their Cstick is set to Attack?

I still don't see how they are both equally useful... I'm thinking there are some moves where that will kill you even if you fast fall those other 9 frames but there should be some moves where those frames do matter.

A move that would kill you at 96.5% but not at 96.4% I know that doesn't really happen in brawl but i suck at explaining things.

edit: because you don't fast fall if you only tilt your stick. You can do a non fast falled Dair manually.

Berserker_Cross said:

At least I managed to recover vertically correctly with Dair.

And I seemed to have better results with Air dodge ->Fair when I tried with my friend
In fact we were trying this out a little while ago after watching infzy's vid on cancelling momentum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njcYW0rFmUg&feature=channel_page

But chances are that we made errors along the way.

Click to expand...

I actually did something very similar to this...thanks for linking that video. If you guys haven't watched it...do it!

For reference, BAD examples for Ike would include: Counter, Eruption, and Aether. These all give you a massive boost in height and at the same time make you lose your control of your aerial mobility. Jumping gives you a similar boost in height, but the trade off is worth it to save yourself horizontally.

Quick Draw is the best in terms of stopping yourself horizontally. You WILL get a boost in height from your jump and using Quick Draw...so just be wary of where you are in relation to the blast zones. Technically the best way to stop yourself horizontally is to air dodge, jump, then Quick Draw...all ASAP. Just be aware of the height boost you will get...no to mention putting yourself in a freefall state... :/

@Arturo-Both the attacks have the same total animation length...so they will provide the same survivability. The hitbox does not matter.

And this is known as DI, right? Can someone explain SDI to me?

This is COMPLETELY different and separate from DI.

DI is Directional Influence. It is exactly how it sounds...you influence the direction, the trajectory, when you are knocked back. Right after you get hit with an attack, you can direct yourself, altering your trajectory. This is what DI is. Note that it does NOT change the strength or how far back you get hit...only the angle of the path in which you take.

SDI is Smash Directional Influence. During the hitlag of an attack(the few "freeze frames" before you get 'launched'), you can input directions for an instantaneous change in position of your character in the same direction as your input. Most commonly used for escaping multi-hit attacks or getting yourself closer towards a surface to tech.

What I am talking about is after all of this. Canceling your momentum away from the stage as soon as possible in order to get back the control of your aerial mobility. The more efficient you are at this, the longer you will be able to survive...since you can essentially shorten the amount you are knocked back.

But for SDIng, you use the Cstick set to Smash, am I correct?
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5rxq05fGc <-- In this video, Ally survived at 2:28 with just DI alone? or with SDI? Same with 2:34. But the general application of the DI was upwards right?

The control stick is used in SDI. The c-stick may also be used if it is set to 'Smash.' Note for the c-stick, you must return it to it's neutral position before you can input another direction for SDI.

Ah I see. But isn't normal DI also used by the control stick? I'm still not quite understanding the difference.
EDIT: After checking out your thread on the Frame Data for Ike more thoroughly, isn't it much more beneficial for Ike to Air dodge when he's sent flying across the stage horizontally instead of immediately using an Aerial? The ending Frames for an Air Dodge is much quicker than the Bair or the Dair ending frames.

@video-Yes that was upwards DI.

@you-Read the OP again. >.>

Ah thanks. We were having a conversation on DI that I forgot entirely what you were originally talking about lols.

just in case your confused this is SDI at it's finest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq2S4_EkN1w

Just recently, I've played a few matches and I tried recovering with Aerial Dodge. And yes, everything I did in the matches confirmed that what Kirk said was true. Only for horizontal recoveries though was Aerial Dodge far superior to using an Aerial instead. For vertical, I just continue using the Dair. I survived up to 200% with Aerial dodge

I've been doing an air dodge out of a horizontal potential KO out of instinct for a while now, though I didn't know a double jump helped; I still used it sometimes, though, to Quick Draw back. Guess I ought to add a fast falling down air to my list of reflexes. Thanks for the tip.

You miss the corner, your dead

I've actually done both of these unconsciously all along without knowing they did any good. Sweet.

I'm shocked at just how much of a difference Dair makes when doing vertically compared to AD. With my Ike over wifi, it saved me like from dying by like, 30% damage. And when I did the same with Captain Falcon (the only other character I use online) It saved me by like, 50% damage in one of the matches.

Either that, or my DI was TERRIBLE when ADing. >_> <_<

You shouldn't be even ADing if you're sent vertically..

I usually just used QD to recover horizontally, I never thought airdodging + jump would help, awesome idea. And if you hit them with dair while falling that's even better.

Better idea for vertical falling: Down on control stick to fast fall, down on cstick for dair and even faster fall.

Nice thread, Kirk.

But, if you are knocked out, and are flying far away, and air dodge plus a jump will barely end the momentum, if its followed by a quick draw will not make you reach the stage, you will be too far away still, or not?

So that's what it was. I 've always felt less momentum when using an aerial when sent horizontally, but I thought everyone knew that, lol.

Awesome fine Kirk. You are awesome. d(^-^d)