Certain attacks cannot be Smash DI:ed

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Disclaimer: The following post might quite possibly be written in shoddy English. I've been up all night (24+ hours).

(1st post revamped after receiving new info from scotu)

Certain attacks cannot be Smash DI:ed, neither shielded or on hit. These attacks dish out what has been dubbed "Cinematic Hit Lag" (or "Fake Hit Lag" or whatever, take your pick). Cinematic Hit Lag cannot be Smash DI:ed. A characteristic of Cinematic Hit Lag is that it lasts for a very long time.

The following moves have been tested by me and/or my friend Nizro and have been confirmed to have Cinematic Hit Lag (with possible errors on our part).

Marth:
Fsmash (tipper)

Wolf:
F-tilt (as suggested by scotu)

Zelda:
Fair
Bair

Toon Link:
Fsmash (2nd hit)

The usual suspects: Moves which have a lot of stun, but which do not have "Cinematic Hit Lag":
* Wolf's Fsmash (both hits)
* Captain Falcon's Knee
* Donkey Kong's Fsmash, Fair and Giant Punch (Neutral B)
* Link's Fsmash (both hits)
* Pikachu's Dsmash (duh!)
* Marth's tippered U-tilt, Fair and Dair (we're pretty sure, not positive, requires retesting)
* Snake's F-tilt (ColinJF)
* Zelda's D-tilt
* Ganondorf's Dsmash (UltiMario)

The untested suspects: Moves which are suspected of having "Cinematic Hit Lag" that have not been tested yet:
* The rest of Marth's tippers
* Ganondorf's Jab
* Bowser's Dsmash
* Pikachu's Fsmash
* Toon Link's Dsmash
* Samus' charge shot

For moves which have multiple hits, please specify which hit(s) you think are/you have found to be un-SDI:able.

If people feel this is important enough to warrant its own "research" thread, feel free to help me fill the list out. If you have some time to spare and wish to contribute to this "project", feel free to test some moves out on your own.

Ideally, have a friend there to help you test things out, as that will be much easier. We found the best and easiest way to test whether or not something is Smash DI:able was to:
* Get yourself a friend/sibling/parent to help you
* Go into Training Mode
* Set it to 1/4 speed and the 2nd character to "(Human) Control"
* Have the character who is to be hit taunt and then immediately start rotating the control stick.
* Hit him with the move to be tested
* See what happens
* Rinse and repeat 'til you are positive

This way, you won't accidentally move out of range for the move before you can get hit by it and you will be Smash DI:ing from the very beginning of the move. If you find a move which appears to not be Smash DI:able, test it out several times just to be sure.

Big Red · Jan 3, 2009

Interesting, I find it hard to believe that you can't sdi Marth's tipper, but I certainly trust your tests over my gut feeling.

I'll see if I can do some tests with this later, and of course discovering a reason for these moves would be interesting, although that could be simply a wild goose chase, the most likely answer is that Sakurai sucks.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Big Red said:
Interesting, I find it hard to believe that you can't sdi Marth's tipper, but I certainly trust your tests over my gut feeling.

These tests were done late at night with both of us groggy. But I'm almost positive Marth's Tipper Fsmash could not be Smash DI:ed. We tried it several times and considering the amount of hitstun it has, it's quite strange how we weren't able to Smash DI at all on any of the occasions when the Fsmash tippered (yet I'm pretty sure we managed to SDI a little when it didn't).

Big Red said:
The most likely answer is that Sakurai sucks.

I concur.

Airgemini · Jan 3, 2009

Hm this thread is very interesting Yuna! Im very surprised Zelda's Bair and Fair cant be SDI. I wonder if it would work with Samus's full charged shot since it has about the same amount of stun as Zelda's Fair and Bair and CF's Fair.

CO18 · Jan 3, 2009

Sounds cool. Cant wait to see the rest. Im too lazy to test myself. lol

deepseadiva · Jan 3, 2009

Yuna said:
So last night, my friend and I were playing around in Training Mode at 1/4 speed to try to input as much Smash DI as possible just for fun

Woo party animal.

Anyways, I'd test another few of Wolf's moves. Those are wonky.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

MenoUnderwater said:
Woo party animal.

Well, kinda. It was a Smashfest. It's 9 A.M. now and I still haven't gotten any sleep, which should explain why my English might be a bit off at the moment (English as a third language + no sleep for 24+ hours? You betcha it's gonna be a bit wonky!).

MenoUnderwater said:
Anyways, I'd test another few of Wolf's moves. Those are wonky.

I'll do more testing the next time I play Brawl. I invite anyone willing to donate some time and effort to chip in in the meantime.

Dragoomba · Jan 3, 2009

Do you have any confirmation of Bowser's dsmash? For some reason I cannot SDI out of that.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Dragoomba said:
Do you have any confirmation of Bowser's dsmash? For some reason I cannot SDI out of that.

Any move not listed in the OP was not tested by me or my friend last night, nor has anyone else added confirmation for it. If you wish to test it out yourself, do the following:
* Get yourself a friend/sibling/parent
* Go into Training Mode
* Set it to 1/4 speed and the 2nd character to "(Human) Control"
* Have the character who is to be hit taunt and then immediately start rotating the control stick.
* Dsmash him as Bowser
* See what happens
* Rinse and repeat 'til you are positive

Dragoomba · Jan 3, 2009

Yuna said:
Any move not listed in the OP was not tested by me or my friend last night, nor has anyone else added confirmation for it. If you wish to test it out yourself, do the following:
* Get yourself a friend/sibling/parent
* Go into Training Mode
* Set it to 1/4 speed and the 2nd character to "(Human) Control"
* Have the character who is to be hit taunt and then immediately start rotating the control stick.
* Dsmash him as Bowser
* See what happens
* Rinse and repeat 'til you are positive

Oh okay, I should have read more closely. I'll try that out now, thanks.

M@v · Jan 3, 2009

All hail the thunderkick!

SCOTU · Jan 3, 2009

ever heard of "Cinematic Hitlag"? it's been known about for like... forever. did you try wolf's ftilt?

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

scotu said:
ever heard of "Cinematic Hitlag"? it's been known about for like... forever. did you try wolf's ftilt?

I didn't really read much of that thread about DI in Brawl past the 1st post, which I skimmed. And I don't think it mentions "Cinematic Hitlag" or anything of the sort in the OP (I just skimmed it again). Googling "Cinematic Hit Lag" gave me one hit on page 4 in that thread

.

So I guess it's old. I never claimed to have discovered something ground-breakingly new, just that I had never heard of it (and neither has my friend, who reads the Tactical boards religiously), so I assumed it was new, but I also said that it could very well be old.

So it's not new. Has anyone made compiled a complete list of which moves dishes out "Cinematic Hitlag"?

Mic_128 · Jan 3, 2009

It was in PAL Melee, but was never reffered to as Cinimatic lag.

Cherry64 · Jan 3, 2009

What the heck is SDI

does the character that get hit get the ability to DI afterwards? or does the person who hit them manage to gimp their fall with nDI? I know a bit about smash but totally want to learn more

Natch · Jan 3, 2009

I never heard of "Cinematic Hitlag" before. It's something that isn't well known, trust me. People never talk about it. If you cannot actually SDI Marth's tippered Fsmash, that's important information, and makes his Fsmash even more dangerous than I originally thought. People would be talking about that; "Oh yeah, not only does his tippered Fsmash have more knockback, you can't even SDI it."

Yuna deserves credit here, for recirculating uncommon knowledge.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Natch said:
I never heard of "Cinematic Hitlag" before. It's something that isn't well known, trust me. People never talk about it. If you cannot actually SDI Marth's tippered Fsmash, that's important information, and makes his Fsmash even more dangerous than I originally thought. People would be talking about that; "Oh yeah, not only does his tippered Fsmash have more knockback, you can't even SDI it."

According to someone in the DI-thread, several of Marth's tippers seem to be non-SDI:able (yes, he's that broken!

).

We tested several of them. U-Tilt was a bit iffy when tippered. But I think we settled on that the hitlag was SDI:able (though barely so). Fair and Dair are SDI-able when tippered (I'm almost positive on this, then again, it was late and I hadn't slept for 24+ hours). We didn't test anything else involving Marth's tippers.

Natch said:
Yuna deserves credit here, for recirculating uncommon knowledge.

Credit for re-circulating it? Probably not. If I invest time and effort into this to make it a complete list of all moves with "Cinematic Hit Lag" (or whatever the community wants to call it)(unless such a list already exists)? Yeah, then I'd deserve credit for doing just that, I guess.

I'm not doing this for the credit, I want to spread the knowledge and delve deeper into it (and I'm too lazy to do it all on my own, so I need help!

). I believe this is important enough to be made common knowledge and explored comprehensively.

cutter · Jan 3, 2009

Cherry64 said:
What the heck is SDI does the character that get hit get the ability to DI afterwards? or does the person who hit them manage to gimp their fall with nDI? I know a bit about smash but totally want to learn more

When you are in hitlag (the split second you're frozen before being launched by a hit), you use both analog sticks to smash DI an input.

You can test smash DI yourself by going into training mode, throw a Smart Bomb at your feet, and use both the control and C sticks to smash your way out of the explosion and break free.

Deleted member · Jan 3, 2009

I'm almost certain that you can't SDI out of TL's Dsmash, Ganon's Dsmash, or Snake's Ftilt.

You can SDI the dancing blade but you'll never get out of it in time lol i bet that doesn't count

Alzi · Jan 3, 2009

This is intresting i would test some more attacks but my sister or parents won't help me.

Sosuke · Jan 3, 2009

I'll try out a few characters moves tomorrow.

Toon Link has something going for him? What? <_<

Adapt · Jan 3, 2009

I think these 3 have the same type of hitlag (you can freeze people in place with a timer, just like Zelda's bair/fair)

Ganon's Jab (9%)
Pika's F-smash
The Captain's Knee

I think I have seen Ganon's dair SDIed before so that may be out, but someone will have to confirm. I can't because I am not near my wii atm

ph00tbag · Jan 3, 2009

I'm almost positive you can SDI the Knee. Maybe I'm crazy.

Tenki · Jan 3, 2009

Yuna said:
Well, kinda. It was a Smashfest. It's 9 A.M. now and I still haven't gotten any sleep, which should explain why my English might be a bit off at the moment (English as a third language + no sleep for 24+ hours? You betcha it's gonna be a bit wonky!).

Quit johning about your English. You know you can speak (or... type?) more coherent English if you were sleepless for 3 nights and drunk than some native speakers.

ph00tbag said:
I'm almost positive you can SDI the Knee. Maybe I'm crazy.

I'm pretty sure you can.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

ph00tbag said:
I'm almost positive you can SDI the Knee. Maybe I'm crazy.

Yes, the Knee can be SDI:ed. We did this yesterday. I'll add a list of "likely suspect" moves which have already been tested by myself and my friend to the OP.

Adapt · Jan 3, 2009

Maybe you can also add a list of moves that are suspect but have not been tested yet. That would help people trying to test

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Adapt said:
Maybe you can also add a list of moves that are suspect but have not been tested yet. That would help people trying to test

Will do. People, please tell me which moves you suspect to have Cinematic Hit Lag.

Levitas · Jan 3, 2009

Anything that has hitlag that's longer than it should be for moves of their damage. So for things that do ~10 damage, there should be 5 frames hitlag. etc.

Additionally, I'd be surprised if there isn't real hitlag on moves with cinematic hitlag also. That's purely speculative.

Note that the knee is real hitlag and can be SDI'd like crazy.

Adapt · Jan 3, 2009

So far people have suggested:

Samus's Charge Shot
Ganon's Dair (I think this is unlikely, but I can't test atm)
Ganon's d-smash
TL's d-smash
Snake's ftilt
Pika's fsmash

I would say Zero Suit's stuns, but they are most likely something else entirely

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 3, 2009

Tippered attacks by Marth seem impossible to SDI in general, not only fsmash. Maybe I'm doing something horribly wrong but I'm never able to SDI a tippered Nair.

Itakio · Jan 3, 2009

I think I've seen myself end up behind or in front of Snake, out of reach of the second hit of the f-tilt after being hit by the first part. This has happened multiple times.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Gheb_01 said:
Tippered attacks by Marth seem impossible to SDI in general, not only fsmash. Maybe I'm doing something horribly wrong but I'm never able to SDI a tippered Nair.

Yes, some people suspect that many of Marth's tippers are impossible to SDI. We tested a few out last night.

I think U-tilt, Fair and Dair were Smash DI:able (I'm not entirely positive, someone re-test them for me), so it's only some of them which aren't Smash DI:able.

ColinJF · Jan 3, 2009

The reason you can't SDI Snake's forward tilt sometimes is that the first hit has a chance to trip.

UltiMario · Jan 3, 2009

It appears that Gannon's DSmash can be SDI'd. I'm not sure though, it may have just been a funky hit, seeing as I can only pull it off once so far.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

ColinJF said:
The reason you can't SDI Snake's forward tilt sometimes is that the first hit has a chance to trip.

If it doesn't trip, you can SDI it every single time?

UltiMario said:
It appears that Gannon's DSmash can be SDI'd. I'm not sure though, it may have just been a funky hit, seeing as I can only pull it off once so far.

Please re-test this. I don't want to edit in information which has not been fully confirmed into the OP (despite the stuff that I'm a little bit unsure of that's already in it

).

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 3, 2009

Yuna said:
If it doesn't trip, you can SDI it every single time?

No. You can never SDI out of Snakes ftilt.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

Gheb_01 said:
No. You can never SDI out of Snakes ftilt.

So what you meant was "Snake's F-tilt cannot be SDI:ed because it has a chance to trip (and moves which have a chance to trip cannot be SDI:ed)"? Which also explains why Zelda's D-tilt cannot be SDI:ed from my experiences (in 1x speed in real life matches).

Cherry64 · Jan 3, 2009

cutter said:
When you are in hitlag (the split second you're frozen before being launched by a hit), you use both analog sticks to smash DI an input.

You can test smash DI yourself by going into training mode, throw a Smart Bomb at your feet, and use both the control and C sticks to smash your way out of the explosion and break free.

Thank you. I will try that. I use DI but who doesn't right? is this a lot different than that?

ColinJF · Jan 3, 2009

gheb is mistaken. You can SDI Snake's forward tilt if it doesn't trip. The reason rapid down tilts tend to prevent SDI is that they trip often enough to keep resetting your position.

Yuna · Jan 3, 2009

ColinJF said:
gheb is mistaken. You can SDI Snake's forward tilt if it doesn't trip. The reason rapid down tilts tend to prevent SDI is that they trip often enough to keep resetting your position.

And you are 100% positive on this (just want to make sure)?

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