Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #25 - Fox

awww cute fox.....

*clears throat*

any ways. from knowledge, space animals usually have an advantage over projectilists like TL. Yes fox can counter camp us with his reflector, I tend not to worry about his gun because it isnt like falco's and doesnt affect my approach. hrmmm. playing redson's fox, i think its in TL's favor. YOu dont have to use projectiles all the time. IF you are a predictable projectilist, you can limit your use and use it randomly to throw them off.

I'd watch out for Dair then up smash. at a good % its a killer. TL however has awsome DI so comboing on TL isnt a problem for us. Fighting o nthe ground or air TL has the advantage. he has a better reach with the sword of his. not to mention thanks to Z-tilt and arrows we can ledge guard Fox when her is trying to recover.

Ratio wise...... either a 55-45 TL favor, or 60-40 TL favor.

Taken from PgH-M@v-Pgh Match-up Thread.

Toon Link is a well balanced character. He has a variety of projectiles, average priority, a decent killing game, and an acceptable recovery. unfortunately for TL, Fox is "Good" in many areas.
First, the projectile game. You probably wont be using your blaster much, but TL has it worse. You have plenty of options vs his spam game. TL's projectile come out slow. Fox's speed can create or close distance fast. Shine works against his arrows and boomerang. And his bombs are not hard to dodge.
Fox's upsmash serves well yet again in this matchup. Tl's upsmash is his best kill move. Its less powerful and slightly slower than yours. TL does his best in this matchup when he zones midrange. It makes it tricky to get close to him, due to his fsmash, and he can punish you with projectiles if you run. Be aware of this. Your combos work well, and TL has uptilt combos as well. TL's defense from above isnt too good. You can shine stall him, and punish accordingly for jumping too early/late.
The deathknell of toonlink is the fact the shine outprioritizes his upb. TL is easy picking for fox off stage. Be very aggressive offstage with fox. TL can cause problems for you with bombs and arrows. If he is daring, he might try a down air spike. Play smart, and this should be a win for you.

Bomber7 said:

awww cute fox.....

*clears throat*

any ways. from knowledge, space animals usually have an advantage over projectilists like TL. Yes fox can counter camp us with his reflector, I tend not to worry about his gun because it isnt like falco's and doesnt affect my approach. hrmmm. playing redson's fox, i think its in TL's favor. YOu dont have to use projectiles all the time. IF you are a predictable projectilist, you can limit your use and use it randomly to throw them off.

I'd watch out for Dair then up smash. at a good % its a killer. TL however has awsome DI so comboing on TL isnt a problem for us. Fighting o nthe ground or air TL has the advantage. he has a better reach with the sword of his. not to mention thanks to Z-tilt and arrows we can ledge guard Fox when her is trying to recover.

Ratio wise...... either a 55-45 TL favor, or 60-40 TL favor.

Click to expand...

Who is redson? I read your post and the only reason you say it's in Toon Link's favor is beause he has awesome DI, zair, and arrows to edgeguard with....please....Fox has a superior spacing game IMO. You say Toon Link's game is better on the ground? As if. I believe Fox has a better ground game because of his DCSG. It closes distances with Toon Link EXTREMEMLY quickly. In our discussion we mentioned that Toon Link is best at midrange while Fox crushes him from a far as well as close range. From a far because we can reflect your projectiles and SHL/DL/TL you. From close range we are better because we have better a "combo" such as our utilt x? to whatever. We strike hardest from above with the drill that we can shine stall to confuse the player to either attack too soon or we can just land and get an easy grab. We do better offstage because we can actually shine spike you because our shine outprioritized your up b and a drop dair nair can probably suffice as well.

60:40 Fox. Hands Down.

"based on my experience fighting so and so, I believe the match up is XX-XX in _____'s favor".


Counter pick Lylat because he can't recover.
Ban Cornaria because of the wall.

The only projectile you should be safe using is bombs ,and thats if you throw them in front of Fox so they DON'T bounce off his reflector. The blast radius will still hit him.
Get in close so he can't spam.
Get ready to avoid his Usmash when your at 90%+.
Gimp his very gimp-able recovery.
Get ready to use Up-B immediately after he shines you during your recovery.
Bair chains turn into Bair combos, because Fox just likes getting combo'd I guess.

Fox is a lot easier to juggle then most characters, so you should just have fun with it. =P
Fox is the funnest character to play against. ^_^

Utilt can combo fox from like 0-45ish%
bair combos are crazy
Fox can combo us but!
We can combo him easier.
if they shine at your recovery dont air dodge you probally die then...
try to have a bomb.

Everyone pretty much said everything else.

Here's a question.

Would it be worth fighting Fox with TL (all shines considered), or would it simply be better to counterpick characters..?

Fox vs Toon Link isn't that bad
Its kinda near Neutral.
As long as your not on FD or Corniera
Its pretty much easy.

iRjOn said:

Utilt can combo fox from like 0-45ish%
bair combos are crazy
Fox can combo us but!
We can combo him easier.
if they shine at your recovery dont air dodge you probally die then...
try to have a bomb.

Everyone pretty much said everything else.

Click to expand...

I'm the only one allowed to post like that. >=P
Seriously.


To the other guy: Just do what you want.
If you think its too hard, just pick Meta Knight.

sasukebowser said:

To the other guy: Just do what you want.
If you think its too hard, just pick Meta Knight.

Click to expand...

The other guy has a name...

and I don't play MK.

Ever.

sasukebowser said:

I'm the only one allowed to post like that. >=P
Seriously.


To the other guy: Just do what you want.
If you think its too hard, just pick Meta Knight.

Click to expand...

>:D

@ Blaze

Just learn the matchup from both sides.
It will be done in alittle.

iRjOn said:

@ Blaze

Just learn the matchup from both sides.
It will be done in alittle.

Click to expand...

hmmm...

Maybe I'm not asking this question the right way, so I'll try to rephrase it.

Considering that TL is a character that relies heavily on zoning his opponents with projectiles, and the fact that Fox has one of the best reflectors in the game, would it be more effecient to choose a different character (such as marth, maybe), or fall back on mind games and clever swordplay with TL?

iRjOn said:

>:D

Click to expand...

...No.
I was serious. ._.



Guy who has a name:
Whatever you want. Dx
Gawd.




Change the OP picture Viet.
VVVVVVVVVVVVV

sasukebowser said:

Justblaze647:
Whatever you want. Dx
Gawd.

Click to expand...

Do you really have to be a jerk? You could just not reply to my question. It is aimed more-so at the thread than at any single individual...

k? thnx.

Lol nice pic. The pic kind of covers the matchup. Fox can sit the all day with his reflector, making you approach.

NeverKnowsBest said:

Taken from PgH-M@v-Pgh Match-up Thread.


We do better offstage because we can actually shine spike you because our shine outprioritized your up b and a drop dair nair can probably suffice as well.

60:40 Fox. Hands Down.

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thats not falco man. check your character.

Man, you guys have hilarious matchup discussions.

Anyway, onto the meat of things.

any ways. from knowledge, space animals usually have an advantage over projectilists like TL.

Click to expand...

See, your post started out fine enough.

Yes fox can counter camp us with his reflector, I tend not to worry about his gun because it isnt like falco's and doesnt affect my approach.

Click to expand...

But then you missed the point of his lasers.

hrmmm. playing redson's fox, i think its in TL's favor.

Click to expand...

And then you started citing some guy I've never heard of.

YOu dont have to use projectiles all the time. IF you are a predictable projectilist, you can limit your use and use it randomly to throw them off.

Click to expand...

And Fox can still sit in his reflector. Close up, it's much more dangerous to get projectiles off, as Fox will punish your *** for trying.

I'd watch out for Dair then up smash. at a good % its a killer. TL however has awsome DI so comboing on TL isnt a problem for us.

Click to expand...

OH **** GUYS I PLAY TOON LINK SO MY DI MUST ROCK. I think you're misunderstanding the concept.

Fighting o nthe ground or air TL has the advantage.

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Hey, I can do this too! "Fighting on the ground or air, Fox has the advantage."

he has a better reach with the sword of his. not to mention thanks to Z-tilt and arrows we can ledge guard Fox when her is trying to recover.

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Marth has much better reach than MK. Just saying. The edgeguarding stuff, I'll give you, though.

thats not falco man. check your character.

Click to expand...

Falco doesn't have a shine spike. You'll never see Falco use a dropped Nair to edgeguard. Check your character and his "awesome DI."

Counter pick Lylat because he can't recover.
Ban Cornaria because of the wall.

The only projectile you should be safe using is bombs ,and thats if you throw them in front of Fox so they DON'T bounce off his reflector. The blast radius will still hit him.
Get in close so he can't spam.
Get ready to avoid his Usmash when your at 90%+.
Gimp his very gimp-able recovery.
Get ready to use Up-B immediately after he shines you during your recovery.
Bair chains turn into Bair combos, because Fox just likes getting combo'd I guess.

Fox is a lot easier to juggle then most characters, so you should just have fun with it. =P
Fox is the funnest character to play against. ^_^

Click to expand...

All legit stuff, except that in most cases, Fox will reach the ledge witih invincibility before you can grab with UpB, but that's a spacing/timing issue that just takes practice.

Considering that TL is a character that relies heavily on zoning his opponents with projectiles, and the fact that Fox has one of the best reflectors in the game, would it be more effecient to choose a different character (such as marth, maybe), or fall back on mind games and clever swordplay with TL?

Click to expand...

TL is at a disadvantage here. Personal preference, do whatever you want. Marth outspaces and outrapes Fox pretty hard, so do that if you want. No one really cares.

Basically, spacing and zoning considered, Fox beats out Toon Link at long range (reflector/laser camping) and close range (mostly punishing and general ability to not get *****). At mid range, though, Toon Link controls the stage with bombs, which are really the best projectile you have in this matchup. Unfortunately, Fox can close the gap pretty quickly if he decides to go close.

tl;dr SPACE. ZONE. DO IT MIDRANGE. BAN CORNERIA. CP LYLAT.

iRjOn said:

Utilt can combo fox from like 0-45ish%
bair combos are crazy
Fox can combo us but!
We can combo him easier.
if they shine at your recovery dont air dodge you probally die then...
try to have a bomb.

Everyone pretty much said everything else.

Click to expand...

Only if the fox were to DI down for whatever reason, play someone who knows his SDI please.

Fox's reflector is good. But if he's reflecting, we can still zair him. That will let us knock him around a bit. Also Fox won't use his reflector on every projectile. Some of them he won't be able to see coming.

Why would he reflect when your close enough to Zair?
Whats what shields are for.

I guess, if for whatever reason, the Fox doesn't realize this, yeah sure. Go for it.

Shadow Moth said:

Fox's reflector is good. But if he's reflecting, we can still zair him. That will let us knock him around a bit. Also Fox won't use his reflector on every projectile. Some of them he won't be able to see coming.

Click to expand...

Powersheild are awesome.

And really, fox can see you running up to zair.

Okay, so he sees you running up to zair. What's he going to do about it? I said zair and not some other move because zair is good anyway. It comes out quickly and auto cancels with almost no lag. Just 'cause he sees it coming doesn't mean he can avoid it. Even if he does, it puts TL on the offense.

That makes no sense man.

By your logic your saying that you can just Zair the whole match and Fox can't do anything about it.

If Fox knows your going to Zair, he can do something about it.
Like, idk perfect shield -> Ftilt? Lots of quick stuff.

Fox's D-air.

/discuss.

This move makes me cry, it always goes right into U-tilt, I bad blocker . I'd say block roll away, but if you see it coming U-smash him.

Beforehand:
-Utilt
-Usmash (IF HES AT KILLING PERCENT)

During:
-Shield grab
-Wait until Usmash shield grab

After getting hit by Dair:
-Shield the Usmash
-SDI away, so he hit you with anything after





Oh, and having a bomb out when you think your going to get gimped always helps.
That way if you get shined, you might still have a chance even if you get edge grabbed.

§witch said:

Only if the fox were to DI down for whatever reason, play someone who knows his SDI please.

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No acctually thats y i said 40ish%
Thank you
:D

And Fox is a natural fast faller as you kno.
SDI at such a low % wont get him out without having at least 20ish % utilt is not weak.
take your rude comments back to Fox boards plz
:D

@ Sasuke
._. i kno
just wanted to feel the power...

=Fox technique=

1. If opponent is at a distance, go to step 2.
   If opponent is close, go to step 3.
   If opponent is midrange projectiles, go to step 4.
2. Spam laser. Then check step 1.
3. Fsmash opponent away/use Fox Illusion. Then check step 1.
4. Reflect projectiles. Then check step 1.

Lol jk.

I hear that mid-range is best to make him not want to use laser but you can still avoid his smashes.

Okay, wait a minute. What I've been seeing kinda implies it's Fox's advantage.

And apparently the reason is -

TL is easy pickings for Fox offstage
Fox kills faster
Fox will make TL approach

Well, the problem I have with this is that Fox also sucks offstage. Since the two can gimp each other all day and night, gimping will not tilt this in anyone's favor. Sure if TL is forced to go low or loses his second jump he's kinda ****ed but Fox is in no better position at a similar situation.

Fox killing faster is a clear advantage, I'll grant that. Being able to kill before the % even reaches 100 is worrisome for TL but both TL and Fox are lightweights, and they will both be able to rack up damage as well as kill in relative percents if their Usmash is fresh/restored fully. I'll give this to Fox however.

Now Fox forcing TL to approach. Well, okay, so TL will have to approach, so we can't really camp. However, as 1337 as Reflector is, there's bombs which can bypass reflectors, and there's zair.

You can argue that you can see a zair a mile away, but it's not always used to attack or combo. It may just be used to poke. They TL can just move back into mid-range where he dominates and set up projectile walls. Doesn't matter if it hits you, it just matters that it keeps you away. Fox can laser back but laser has no stun so it's simply chip damage, nothing TOO dangerous. A good TL will find a way to get in, and then due to Fox's fastfall properties, he is going to eat some damage.

A good TL will mix-up approaches, zair usage, and baiting tactics. If you want to run in and attack after I do a zair, prepare to fight my shield, which arguably, sorta ***** both our characters.

TL is light and floaty, so he shouldn't be eating the same amount of damage as he can dish out. Plus, unlike Fox, he has projectiles that can stun AND he has a excellent poking tool that if used correctly is safe-on-block.

He's basically a better Fox. He kills at a higher %, but he can actually bait better with 3 projectiles that actually do more than just add %, a safe poking move, and he can approach without getting worrying half of the time about going getting shieldgrabbed. None of his approaches are safe other than dash to shield but when you have to dash to shield as your main approach it says a lot about your approach capabilities. You have grabs but they don't have any guaranteed follow-ups nor is his grab range anything to write home about. Your smash attacks are all powerful but can all be shieldgrabbed, especially by a tether user like TL. If you block our smash attacks you can usmash OoS or shieldgrab but generally TL shouldn't be challenging your shield in that manner, and I believe you'll be too far away to grab anyway, which leaves aerials or Usmash OoS, or shield drop if you perfect shield.

So Fox's gameplan is to make us approach by sitting in his reflector, somehow make us get offstage then gimp us. That's fine except getting TL offstage isn't exactly easy when your approach compared to others of the cast is lackluster. Fox is a glass cannon, make one mistake you can eat 50% from Toon Link, while you may get like 30% off of TL.

You're basically fighting a better version of yourself so how is this 60-40 Fox? If anything, it would be 60:40 Toon Link. We can call for 55-45 TL or maybe even. Fox's advantage, I don't think so.

And again I ranted. For a character I don't see much potential for. Wow.

I still dont find the lasers as much of a threat. They just tickle me though.

They can do some serious damage over time.

Ive never run into a laser spammer yet. Its sad, most of there match ups are never played here. Alot of the guys use high tiers, like Falco, MK, Snake, a random ROB player, lucario, a random DK and ditty(same guy). not really any variety. =/

No acctually thats y i said 40ish%
Thank you
:D

Click to expand...

Tested, and doesn't combo that far at all.

Well, the problem I have with this is that Fox also sucks offstage. Since the two can gimp each other all day and night, gimping will not tilt this in anyone's favor. Sure if TL is forced to go low or loses his second jump he's kinda ****ed but Fox is in no better position at a similar situation.

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I never said anything about offstage, but both gimp each other pretty badly at that position. Who implied that it was Fox's advantage offstage?

Now Fox forcing TL to approach. Well, okay, so TL will have to approach, so we can't really camp. However, as 1337 as Reflector is, there's bombs which can bypass reflectors, and there's zair.

Click to expand...

Fox doesn't really camp in reflector as much as it seems. There's no "HOLD DOWN+B, WIN" tactic with reflector, but it does scare TL out of arrows and boomerang, leaving him with Bombs. Which, I will agree, are awesome.

You can argue that you can see a zair a mile away, but it's not always used to attack or combo. It may just be used to poke. They TL can just move back into mid-range where he dominates and set up projectile walls. Doesn't matter if it hits you, it just matters that it keeps you away. Fox can laser back but laser has no stun so it's simply chip damage, nothing TOO dangerous. A good TL will find a way to get in, and then due to Fox's fastfall properties, he is going to eat some damage.

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This. Midrange is dominated by Toon Link, but Fox has ways to distance as well. A quick sliding shield, baiting SHADs, Powershielding into a dash canceled shield grab, and that's only mentioning the purely defensive options to set up. The same could very easily be argued for Fox, who can and will get up in Toon Link's face and stuff a combo down his mouth.

He's basically a better Fox. He kills at a higher %, but he can actually bait better with 3 projectiles that actually do more than just add %, a safe poking move, and he can approach without getting worrying half of the time about going getting shieldgrabbed. None of his approaches are safe other than dash to shield but when you have to dash to shield as your main approach it says a lot about your approach capabilities. You have grabs but they don't have any guaranteed follow-ups nor is his grab range anything to write home about. Your smash attacks are all powerful but can all be shieldgrabbed, especially by a tether user like TL. If you block our smash attacks you can usmash OoS or shieldgrab but generally TL shouldn't be challenging your shield in that manner, and I believe you'll be too far away to grab anyway, which leaves aerials or Usmash OoS, or shield drop if you perfect shield.

Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa. Two of the projectiles are very unsafe, especially with the reflector and how stupid powershielding is in this game. Dash to shield is not his only approach - dropping and crossup Nairs, spaced Bairs, RAR Fairs - Fox has tons of options, and you can't shield grab him if he lands behind you. (Utilt says hi.)

The rest of it is just more stuff that really isn't true about Fox. Really, Fox dominates at two ranges - far and close. TL doesn't have the OoS options to stop all of Fox's options, and really, if TL guesses right, he gets out of the trap. If he guesses wrong, he takes a crapload of damage. You could say the same for Fox, but Toon Link has to stay midrange, which isn't going to work the entire match. TL will not combo for 50% off Fox, though - I don't see any reliable way to keep that going, while Fox has comparable combos through all percents, from low to high.

Really, I could see this as TL advantage (barely) if he had a way to reliably and surely zone Fox into midrange. As far as I know, he doesn't.

The first Fox poster basically just talked about offstage gimps then said 60:40 Fox hands down. Considering you said nothing about it, it's fine.

I agree this can be argued either way for both characters, since, as I said, they're quite similar.

Although I played offense to try to get some stuff settled, since I've already played that card and got what I needed to hear (mostly learn about your character in 10 minutes), I'll ask question now (what I do best lol).

- I know your approaches are not just shield or grab, but if you're forced to approach, aren't all your aerials laggy in some respect? All your aerials cancel out lag if you do them as you rise (except fair unless you do it out of a fullhop or something), and dair and nair autocancel, right? But most of these can be punished by a Usmash OoS which arcs at the back and sets up for a bair easily. Some aerial approaches aren't exactly safe, no?

- Both characters can bait each other and a properly autocanceled zair leaves TL with only a 1 frame disadvantage, meaning if it's used for poking, you can't quite punish the move itself. If you rush in, it's a guessing game on how does what and one way or another someone is going to eat some pseudo combo. If you run away then you reset the situation. You have a clear advantage long-range.

Close-range it's comparable. Toon Link's aerials come out pretty fast, his jab loses out to Fox's I think, and tilts are pretty much the same (well, TL's utilt has better range and it has KO power).

Also TL is floaty so I don't think you can reliably combo him at all once he hits around 40%. After then, to my knowledge there's nothing reliable you can do except get little hits in. Toon Link is lucky if he can get zair + nair to chain in but it can set up for an edgeguard near kill percents and is semi-reliable. Which at that point of % is pretty amazing considering we're playing Brawl. ._.

Feel free to say something. These are just random, detached thoughts. I'm not quite focused atm lol.

@Zhamy

Screen shots of my point is valid
In the heat of a normal battle
It can string to 45%
cause of Fox's stupid fall speed
It cant go beyond that unless it is an extremely stupid Fox player.
But I KNOW it can.

like 10mins before this post I tested it on my friend whom mains Fox and acctually goes to tournies.
And I cpu tested it.

If you are playing Toon Link and cant string utilt for that long you fail at Smash.

You as a Fox player should be able to do this considering Fox's utilt combos alot of the cast.

Not once did I type it will ALWAYS combo Fox from 0-45%
I typed you CAN combo him from 0-45ISH...ISH! %
That mean MAYBE 30% MAYBE 28%

So there
Sorry if it seems I am angry or attacking you
But I'm not.
I'm just speaking real with you.

Do bombs bounce off Fox's reflector or do they go through like physical attacks?
Also, can Fox's reflector counter like Wolf's?

Shadow Moth said:

Do bombs bounce off Fox's reflector or do they go through like physical attacks?
Also, can Fox's reflector counter like Wolf's?

Click to expand...

Yes bombs bounce off

And counter?
You mean deal damage?

Shadow Moth said:

Do bombs bounce off Fox's reflector or do they go through like physical attacks?
Also, can Fox's reflector counter like Wolf's?

Click to expand...

If it hits reflector it bounces off but it's not immune to the bomb's blast radius (so aim your bombs close but not quite on Fox).

Fox's reflector no longer comes out on frame 1 so no.

P.S - I hope my memory didn't fail me.

Ahh i see what you mean now
If timed right the shine can
but in general no it can't really counter

VietGeek said:

The first Fox poster basically just talked about offstage gimps then said 60:40 Fox hands down. Considering you said nothing about it, it's fine.

- I know your approaches are not just shield or grab, but if you're forced to approach, aren't all your aerials laggy in some respect? All your aerials cancel out lag if you do them as you rise (except fair unless you do it out of a fullhop or something), and dair and nair autocancel, right? But most of these can be punished by a Usmash OoS which arcs at the back and sets up for a bair easily. Some aerial approaches aren't exactly safe, no?

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I didn't just talk about offstage gimps. Read again closely.

I talk about how Fox gets in Toon Link's face thanks to DCSG and basically destroys any camp game Toon Link could have had even though it wouldn't matter because of the reflector.

I also mention how shine stalling completely throws of Toon Link's ablitily to intercept Fox from above. Fox works amazingly about Toon Link thanks to the drill - whatever the Fox wants.

About the aerials, that is way we shine stall to throw your interception time off.

Bleh I can't address much right now because I need to go to be because I have dumb work in the AM! I will message Zhamy to clean up.

****, I had a huge, long response writeen out, VietGeek, but SWF killed it. Most of the stuff you have is correct, but there are a few discrepancies which I'll correct when I remember. If I don't, leave me a message on my profile.

Screen shots of my point is valid
In the heat of a normal battle
It can string to 45%
cause of Fox's stupid fall speed
It cant go beyond that unless it is an extremely stupid Fox player.
But I KNOW it can.

Click to expand...

How the hell is your friend DI-ing this stuff? Unless Fox is a few pixels above a footstool, proper SDI mashing gets Fox out of this stuff at less than 45%.

Zhamy said:

****, I had a huge, long response writeen out, VietGeek, but SWF killed it. Most of the stuff you have is correct, but there are a few discrepancies which I'll correct when I remember. If I don't, leave me a message on my profile.



How the hell is your friend DI-ing this stuff? Unless Fox is a few pixels above a footstool, proper SDI mashing gets Fox out of this stuff at less than 45%.

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XD

OMG
This guy
Fox boards and your selective reading makes you such *** holes.

Read lower on the post I'm tried of this stupid one dissagreement
Did I ever say you always get them to 45%?

ish has a meaning you know...