Wolf moveset discussion. W00t.

Title says it all, I think it's time we had a moveset discussion on Wolf. I suppose I'll just move on to each one... once a week? Or later if the discussion doesn't finish. But yeah, I'm AIMING for one a week. After we're done discussing I'll post a summary on the move and then see if you guys agree/disagree with it.


Now that we have that done and over with, the first move I'd like to start with: Jab.

Discussion starter: Jab is an amazing move in my opinion, if you hit with all three of them, then it counts as 3 separate hits, if you hit it I believe it is inescapable. However, the true depth in the jab is the mixup possibilities, you have jab to grab, jab to Dsmash, jab to Fair. All sorts of things, but problem is, if people have a move that's relatively fast (Another jab for example) they can merely jab right through any attempt to Dsmash/grab/whatever. This is where the prediction part in Brawl comes in. Also, in training mode, once people get to higher percents, and you space the jab far enough, all 3 hits connect, but the combo thingy says that only the first two actually combo. Could someone do some testing to see the details of this?

Summary for Jab: It's pretty good. Really it's all about prediction and reading skills, if you think they're gonna try to shield grab after you wait after the first second hits, then follow up with the third or spotdodge. If you think they're going to keep shielding, grab. If you think they're gonna roll away from you, boost smash, if you think they're going to roll behind you, turn around grab (or punish however), same with spotdodge, just that you have to wait before punishing. It's basically a big mindgame, but be sure to cover all the options that will get YOU hurt. Oh, this is assuming that you're hitting a shield, if you actually hit them, I personally would recommend just finishing the combo. However if you don't, be ready to get jabbed yourself in the face =)

NEXT MOVE! =D

Discussion Starter Ftilt: This move in my opinion is Wolf's worst move. But that's just my opinion, discuss away ^_^

Summary for Ftilt: It can be good if you don't have anything else to punish something with. But generally the best way to go is to space it at the edge so you don't get that massive/punishable lag in between hits. I don't like it lol.

Next discussion: Nair.
Discussion Starter
This seems like a really controversial move. Though, one thing every Wolf should know: THis move is not to be used as an approach, and it does NOT combo.

Summary: Eh...I've found some uses for it, really close OoS punishes for example, because it starts really fast. Omniswell and Ninjalink have said that it actually does combo the smaller characters, but for the bigger (By big/small I'm referring to weight) characters it doesn't. It has these interruption frames...anyway, Nair's a weird move. I think that some testing should be done on it.

Next move: Shine
Discussion Starter
Great alternative to an airdodge, 6 frames of invincibility, w00t.

Summary: It's definitely an alternative airdodge, if they're charging a smash or something shine is a really good thing to use (Shine -> Jab is an actual combo, or at least falling [in the air] shine to jab is a combo) Uhm...JJ has found some good uses with it through the jump shine, which basically makes you invincible upon jumping and crap. However you still have that time where you're setting up for a jump (I got 6 frames of that animation...but I could be wrong) So you still have a 6 frame opportunity from dropping your shield to being invincible. So if you're playing in-person and you can time it right, woo hoo! ^_^ This can be really good defensively, for escaping pressure and crap. Apparently JJ says there's this new motion shine...but I dunno, he'll have to explain that one to me.

Next move: Blaster. Discuss here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234179

GO! =D

Aight. Blaster has been discussed. See discussion here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234179

Summary: Wolf blaster has a lot of uses, and it can do a lot. One thing particular about the blaster is that it has a ton of priority, big, and it really can stop the opponent's general flow of things, force him to have to deal with one more thing. The only downside to the blaster is that it is very laggy. Kinda leaves you open. Oh and the bayonet on it is a hitbox, so if you want, you can bayonet people like they did in the Civil War. Just some example uses would to be to camp, and when people are zoning you, throw in a blaster or two here to force them to approach. You could also use it to take away their double jump, and force them in a bad position off stage (Not applicable to Metaknight)

Next move...Dair! Discuss here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236651

Dair Summary: It has some combos (Dair -> Usmash at lower percents) it has extra hitstun (a lot of spikes do for some reason) and it's a sexy spike, what's not to like? Though it has a touch of starting lag, and a punishable amount of landing lag >_> Crap summary, BUT, it'll get fixed later.

New thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239722 Fair discussion (double meaning lol) Have fun.

Jab:

For one thing, you have to understand is that your jabs are considered one of wolf's best mix-up starters, as well as intercepters. Usually hitting with all three parts are a safe bet since most opponents wont expect a full A combo from a wolf player. The jab can also act as a follow-up combo such as Retreating Fair>A combo, or maybe, AC Fair>A combo to rack up the damage. All in all, its quick, and versitile, which is what wolf in general is. because of its quickness, jab mix-ups and follow ups work great with wolf, and shouldn't be over looked in any case.

Jab is one of Wolf's fastest ground moves. It starts in 3 frames iirc and has little ending time for the first jab. This leads to the mixup options, whether you want to finish the enitre combo (9%), or start an easy tech chase with d-throw, or whatever throw you prefer the most. You could try a d-smash, but the additional 6 frames needed to successfully hit makes the mixup not as guaranteed as a mixup with someone else's jab with even less cooldown, like Captain Falcon.

Jab > D-Tilt trip > ??? is beastly btw. Possible combo maybe? Haven't tested it out yet, it's just an idea.

Jab is a fairly good thing to mix it up. Its also really fast. Im pretty sure anyone with a really fast attack could escape anything after the first jab including D-tilt.

On an added note, you can even just single jab some opponent at the edge multiple times, until you see fit to finish him with say a D-smash. Just another way wolf can edgegaurd with, by using his jab.

You mean like when they're hanging on it?

And yeah, just kind of my opinion, but if you hit the person with the first jab, I recommend just going through with the entire thing, simply because nothing except that jab combo is guaranteed. If you calculate the risk of retaliation is worth it, then by all means go for it, however if you hit with the first jab - the safest option would be to simply finish the combo.

I almost never use the 3rd jab. It's useless imo. It's extremely easy to Powershield and it has quuie a bit of lag so I rather avoid it by jab grab. Retreating Fair -> Jab x2 -> Grab -> Dthrow is pretty good.
I have to recheck the frame data for all three jabs but I think the 3rd is the worst. The 1st is very fast and probably gives Wolf a very little frame disadvantage while the 2nd jab has surprisingly good range.

If you jab to anything else besides another jab, they can simply jab through it. Assuming you hit them with the first jab.

jab -> grab works when they are off guard
jabx2 -> grab works when they are off guard
jabx3 -> get them to airdodge -> grab works when they are off guard

jab -> d-smash works when they are off guard
jabx2 -> d-smash works when they are off guard

jabx2 -> retreating fair might work when they are trying to jab through

There's a lot of crap (that I should really update) in my mixups thread from forever ago, it's in the general sticky if anyone wants to look. I started spamming jab dsmash a lot early in my opponents stock, I love it. The third hit is only good when its guaranteed, I rarely use it when I'm actually thinking. Uhhhh grab and dsmash seem to be the two most popular and effective mixups, there was a lot of talk about dtilt long ago, it's average unless you get the trip IMO.

First jab keeps your opponent close, and second one pushes them a bit further back. Just something to keep in mind for your mixups. Either way, first two hits of jab are very nice, and the third is certainly passable if its guaranteed.

Wait, Arc, for testing the third hit, see if an opponent can SDI far enough during the first two hits to shield the third (starting at a relatively close range), because if so... third jab just became a LOT less useful against anyone that knows about it.

I mean at higher percents without any inputs.

And I believe it's possible to SDI out of... you just have to SDI the first hit, which is hard if you're not anticipating it.

Theres a bunch of mixups for jab but usually I just finish the combo.

If anything, the third hit should never be considered useful in anyway unless its reassured to connect. you can repeat your first jab easily, which tends to help make some mindgames. following up with the 2nd hit should probably be the finisher of that said AA combo.

IMO using only the first two stages are needed. Now Like I said before, Fair>AAA combo works wonders since you'll most likely be connecting with either the Fair or the final jab, which has a bit of lag to it, which in that time, the opponent might drop their sheilds if they blocked the fair. Or you may connect with the whole thing (works best at low percents)m since the fair will place them in the air slightly which will allow you to connect with all three jabs.

using the 3rd jab puts you at an advantage against many characters. For instance, if you finish the 3rd jab vs snake, it's soo easy to bait him into airdodging into the ground voila! free grab. If you finish the 3rd jab against fox and send him up, just follow him and wait for the shine stall/dair and voila! free shield grab...etc

But that involves skill... Also at lower percents it's easier to chase ^_^

I'm still going with jab>dsmash all day (or more like until you need to conserve it), until your opponent catches on and shields it, then mix it up with jab>grab. Being lazy and blastering an opponent after the full jab combo works fine enough for me, but grabbing sounds pretty solid.

Jab -> Dsmash, all they have to do is jab in between the hits if they're hit with the jab.

And unfortunately, good players catch on pretty quickly to what you're doing...

IMO, the jab should never be used to pressure somes sheild since the combo can easily be broken after the first jab coonects. The reason why im saying this because a ******** wolf player who thinks he's the **** says that the AAA combo is excellent pressure. And in essence, yes, it should, but the fact that your opponent is capable of easily stopping you from finishing it by doing a multitude of ways is the main reason why using the full combo is not worth the pressure, when a smart whole can find other more effective methods. Just wanted to through that out there BTW.

You mean throw? Not through =P

But yeah, the full combo is definitely not safe on block, it's arguable that other followups are safe as well. Though luckily we can rely on human reaction time ^_^

Once you catch on that they're going to attack, use jab > shine? Lol idk, things come down to mass prediction skills at the end, but you're right, if someone spams jab instead of trying to shield, jab dsmash is a lot less useful.

lol i feel like the noob in this conversation...but you guys are all talking about doing 1 jab to a grab. Whenever i try this (by pressing Z) my entire jab combo continues for some reason. Do i have to wait for a split second before grabbing or is there a faster way?

again srry for the noob question >_>

Yeah you have to wait, because is takes time to pull back his arm. Just jab once and then shield, that should give you the timing for it. You'll notice that characters who have better jabs (Snake, Falco) can shield a LOT faster.

mith, the easiest way to jab-grab is to hit the shield button (and keep) it. You need to remember that A + R/L = grab and since you're already hitting A, you should be able to grab. The only thing you need to learn is the timing.

Wolf's move set is alright as it is.

We're talking about it, not saying "Is it okay? Or should it be changed?"

So yeah, it's just a discussion, sharing knowledge, applications you use for this move, what it can be canceled into it, how good of a move it is in general etc etc.

We really need frame data for what frame you can cancel each jab, is anyone working on that?

Arcpoint has that data.

lolwhat?

10chars.

New discussion! Ftilt time =D

Ftilt is awesome.

Fast, good range, hits if they drop shield too quickly. And the lag isn't killer.

wat r the spects on the f-tilt....is it better then b-air??

Wolf doesn't have a move that's better than bair. I still like the ftilt because it's a very safe ground move...he doesn't have many of them. I love to use it after retreating fairs for pressure.

I usually use f-tilt as a ground spacing move. You can also use it as a surprise killing move at the edge, however high the percentage has to be...

I mainly use it to swipe people off the ledge

fair->f-tilt does work because usually the opponent lifts their shield after they see u land

Tipper ftilt has to be one of the best possible spacing/poking tools in the game, but it's not too consistent. I try not to use ftilt much (or at least not predictably) because of how often I've been shieldgrabbed during the stun for the first hit. Thankfully it's fast enough that if someone dodges it, you can probably shield their attack. I use it more on aerial opponents, because of my fear of being shieldgrabbed.

I love using the ftilt as a spacer and as a surprise move. It has a good amount of lag before the second hit when it makes full contact on a shield. Sometimes the opponent may let down their shield after the first and get the lagged second hit. It can angle up or down, which can hit an opponent on the edge when angled down and hit someone in air when angled up. Also, if you can perfectly space the tilt, it can be amazingly fast and fake out the opponent by only doing a first hit.

My only complaint is that the opponent can roll away or behind you in between the hits after shielding the tilt, which leads to punishment.

Dv8tor said:

I love using the ftilt as a spacer and as a surprise move. It has a good amount of lag before the second hit when it makes full contact on a shield. Sometimes the opponent may let down their shield after the first and get the lagged second hit. It can angle up or down, which can hit an opponent on the edge when angled down and hit someone in air when angled up. Also, if you can perfectly space the tilt, it can be amazingly fast and fake out the opponent by only doing a first hit.

My only complaint is that the opponent can roll away or behind you in between the hits after shielding the tilt, which leads to punishment.

Click to expand...

question...how is do u angle it?? do u rotate the control?

F-tilt in general is a good follow-up move, mostly after aerials or anticipated spot dodge. Not to mention that it can easily stop enemies that are coming straight for you, as well as act as a pseudo edge-guard in some cases. IMO, this one of wolf's best tilts used for poking, next to the d-tilt. As an added bonus, has two hits which means that in some cases can help you in-case you missed the first hit. Although what I said in the last sentence may seem good and all, if it's shielded then your most likely to get punished for it (especially against D3). Although, that can be avoid by properly spacing the f-tilt, since the tip of it can safely connect with out fear or of aa shield-grab.

Eh, Ftilt is OK. great range, disjointed, OK damage, etc. I hate the stun though and if you hit a shield you will get punished. It's kinda slow so watch out, but if you have an opening it's OK. I prefer Fsmash in punishing situations though.

You hold the control stick more towards the corner. In my case I have tap jump off, so say the opponent is on my right, I hold the stick in the top right corner to angle the tilt upwards.