hyperstation
Smash Lord
DAD's SMASH LAB
Smash, lemme git 'em! - Weezy F. Baby
Smash, lemme git 'em! - Weezy F. Baby
A Not-So-Brief Introduction
Ganondorf is very quickly becoming a character whose success is mounted on the precision, consistency, and technical ability of the person playing him in addition to his strengths as a punisher, a tech chaser, and a general heavy hitting power-house. As the brawl metagame has evolved, Ganon's metagame has consistently lost it's "early adopter" advantage seen soon after release in incredibly strong yet elementary techniques like Thunderstorming and basic Gerudo chaining and followups. We've seen huge advances in the use of the UAir - generally considered Ganon's best move by a large margin - as well as a plethora of Advanced Techniques, such as Flight of Ganon, Wizard Kick Canceling in all its permutations, and how one might (ab)use the buffering system in Brawl to GREAT affect. In short, Ganon's game, like most other characters, is continually and necessarily evolving into something incredibly complex; a mode of play whose fruits are only born from the exhaustive knowledge of the person controlling Ganon. The sole purpose of DAD's Smash Lab (hereafter DSL) is to serve as the fulcrum of the investigation and refinement of specific techniques that I (DAD) and other top notch Ganon mains deem to be worthy of an exhaustive glance. We will dissect bit-by-bit the very essence of his evolving metagame and archive it in a way that makes continual growth for our favorite character more fluid and, ideally, more aggressive. Always check the OP. Salient information from the discussion will always be formatted here, and links to the discussion on any given topic will always be provided.
Enjoy,
<3 DAD
Enjoy,
<3 DAD
ABSOLUTELY Necessary Class Reading/Viewing
(Recommendations Encouraged)
- How to Murder Stuff: a Guide to the 'Dorf - by Swoops
- Compact List of Ganon Techs and Skills - by Gleam
- The OFFICIAL Ganon Match-Up Guide - by Ray Kalm
- THIS. - by JoshuatheJames
Recommended Topics Not Currently Under Discussion in DSL
(Recommendations Encouraged)
- Reverse Pivot Grabbing - by Gleam
- New Ganon Tech: Flight of Ganon - by Mister E
- A Very Short Video on Ganon's DI - by Ray Kalm
- Chainchoking - by Twilight Prince
- Chainchoking - A Proof of Concept and Introductory Video - by DAD NEW
- Ganon iz a MYTHBUSTA - Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings - by DAD NEW
DAD's SMASH LAB
IMAGE BY Z1GMA <3
CURRENT DISCUSSIONS
IMAGE BY Z1GMA <3
CURRENT DISCUSSIONS
Ganon on the (L)edge
1. Ledge Hop -> instant Double Jump (iDJ) (Discussion begins on p. 1)
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process
Application
Notes
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process
- Grab the ledge
- Ledge Hop using Y, X, or Up on the control stick
- Immediately use your second jump while either DIing away from the stage, into the stage, or applying no DI to jump straight up and re-grab the ledge
- If "smoke/dust" appears below Ganon's feet, you iDJed too late. If ONLY two DJ rings appear below Ganon's feet, you iDJed perfectly.
- With no DI, a Ledge Hop -> iDJ will re-grab the ledge. If he lands on the stage, you iDJed too late. Practice this to optimize the timing for your Ledge Hop -> iDJ.
Application
My introductory video is 90% instructional and 10% practical. That is, don't watch the video hoping to see how you might apply Ledge Hop -> iDJ to your play style; watch it in order to learn this tech's process. The applications of this move are still being investigated. I'll be adding more to this application section as the discussion progresses.
With NO DI, one has a number of options. My first thought was to figure out a way for Ganon to "plank" on the ledge, forcing an approach. This hasn't really come to fruition, but nonetheless, we have a few options. NAir and UAir both have applications if your opponent is on stage. You may need to use an Aerial Gerudo to instantly re-grab the ledge if your iDJ is very low to the stage. FAir can be used situationally and may similarly require an Aerial Gerudo or Up+B to re-grab the ledge. If an opponent is recovering from below, one can use DAir after the iDJ to **** the ledge. Doing this as opposed to Ledge Drop -> DJ DAir gives you more flexibility. If you use the c-stick, you will probably FF. If you hold down while performing your iDJ and just tap A while falling, you won't FF. Both inputs have their application. BAir and UAir can both serve to edge guard. You'll have a different range than you would by Ledge Hopping -> UAir/BAir or Ledge Dropping -> UAir/BAir. With the addition of the iDJ BAir, UAir, Ganon's range of edge guarding with just the tipman or BAir is pretty amazing.
While DIing Away from the stage, one mostly alters their edge guarding range against opponents recovering laterally or from below. Both BAir and Uair (with or without FF) obviously serve to edge guard. Once can also FAir to cover a pretty nice range beyond the ledge, but you will need to Up+B to re-grab the ledge. DAir can, of course, spike to hell and back. As a method of getting rid of RCO Lag or Ganonciding, one can DI away and use Aerial Gerudo onto the stage, to re-grab the ledge, or to choke your opponent into the void.
Finally, and arguably most importantly, whle DIing into the stage, one has a handful of very potent options. First and foremost, as shown in the video, Ganon can AC DAir. You can catch taller opponents (Samus, Snake...) or just use it to space a buffered followup. Any (reverse) buffered move you might use under normal circumstances can be used here as well. If you have RCO Lag, you obviously won't be able to buffer. BAir can be ACed and can be used if you jump over your opponent. You will probably have to FF this move due to BAir's bizarre hitbox, but given that BAir is often very fresh, this has great KO potential, and the landing lag from the FF BAir would likely be of no import. Tippering a FF UAir will push your opponent onto the ledge setting them up for a ledge/stage spike. NAir and FAir have their uses, but they don't seem so great. As some have pointed out, DIing in is indeed a way to use the Infinite Second Jump Recovery glitch. I've managed to ISJR with DAir, and Air Dodge, which leads me to my next point. Not only is Air Dodging a good Ledge->Stage approach option, you can indeed perform a Flight of Ganon. The use I see here would be DAir at higher perecentages -> ISJR FoG -> UAir off the top of the stage. Imagine the humiliation.
With NO DI, one has a number of options. My first thought was to figure out a way for Ganon to "plank" on the ledge, forcing an approach. This hasn't really come to fruition, but nonetheless, we have a few options. NAir and UAir both have applications if your opponent is on stage. You may need to use an Aerial Gerudo to instantly re-grab the ledge if your iDJ is very low to the stage. FAir can be used situationally and may similarly require an Aerial Gerudo or Up+B to re-grab the ledge. If an opponent is recovering from below, one can use DAir after the iDJ to **** the ledge. Doing this as opposed to Ledge Drop -> DJ DAir gives you more flexibility. If you use the c-stick, you will probably FF. If you hold down while performing your iDJ and just tap A while falling, you won't FF. Both inputs have their application. BAir and UAir can both serve to edge guard. You'll have a different range than you would by Ledge Hopping -> UAir/BAir or Ledge Dropping -> UAir/BAir. With the addition of the iDJ BAir, UAir, Ganon's range of edge guarding with just the tipman or BAir is pretty amazing.
While DIing Away from the stage, one mostly alters their edge guarding range against opponents recovering laterally or from below. Both BAir and Uair (with or without FF) obviously serve to edge guard. Once can also FAir to cover a pretty nice range beyond the ledge, but you will need to Up+B to re-grab the ledge. DAir can, of course, spike to hell and back. As a method of getting rid of RCO Lag or Ganonciding, one can DI away and use Aerial Gerudo onto the stage, to re-grab the ledge, or to choke your opponent into the void.
Finally, and arguably most importantly, whle DIing into the stage, one has a handful of very potent options. First and foremost, as shown in the video, Ganon can AC DAir. You can catch taller opponents (Samus, Snake...) or just use it to space a buffered followup. Any (reverse) buffered move you might use under normal circumstances can be used here as well. If you have RCO Lag, you obviously won't be able to buffer. BAir can be ACed and can be used if you jump over your opponent. You will probably have to FF this move due to BAir's bizarre hitbox, but given that BAir is often very fresh, this has great KO potential, and the landing lag from the FF BAir would likely be of no import. Tippering a FF UAir will push your opponent onto the ledge setting them up for a ledge/stage spike. NAir and FAir have their uses, but they don't seem so great. As some have pointed out, DIing in is indeed a way to use the Infinite Second Jump Recovery glitch. I've managed to ISJR with DAir, and Air Dodge, which leads me to my next point. Not only is Air Dodging a good Ledge->Stage approach option, you can indeed perform a Flight of Ganon. The use I see here would be DAir at higher perecentages -> ISJR FoG -> UAir off the top of the stage. Imagine the humiliation.
Notes
- At >100%, a Ledge Hop occurs slower than normally. You will have to adjust your timing accordingly. Honestly, at >100%, I generally will just opt for a soft Ledge Drop->Air Dodge onto stage since pretty much everything is so freaking slow for Ganon at that point.
- Blad's Bouncing "Combo" can be set up here pretty easily via AC DAir -> UAir. In theory, this is pretty beautiful because not only can it rack up damage pretty nicely, it might push the opponent onto the ledge for a spike. The problem is, the Bouncing "Combo" can still be teched.
2. Wizard Kick Canceling (WKC) NEW (Discussion begins on p. 6)
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process (WKC AWAY from the stage)
Application
Notes
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process (WKC AWAY from the stage)
- Watch the video listed above. Visual description will serve better than words, in this case.
- Space yourself correctly from the ledge.
- Perform a Wizard Kick.
- The Wizard Kick will cancel, and you can perform any aerial.
- Watch the video listed above. Visual description will serve better than words, in this case.
- Space yourself closer to the ledge than the spacing necessary to perform a WKC.
- Perform a Wizard Kick.
- As the Roll Out animation ends beyond the ledge, you can perform exactly one jump and one aerial and recover safely to a ledge grab.
- Watch the video listed above. Visual description will serve better than words, in this case.
- Roll all the way up against the ledge with your back facing the ledge.
- Perform a Wizard Kick.
- As the Roll Out animation ends, you can buffer a jump or an Aerial Gerudo.
Application
In this case, I am not going to write up a lengthy Application section. Right now, I don't see the point, as I believe that the video explains its application better than my writing might. As the discussion continues, I will add a write up if I see it's necessary. Feel free to suggest applications in the discussion.
Applications not shown in the video:
Applications not shown in the video:
- WKC -> Footstool on hanging opponents
Notes
- When Wizard Kicking INTO the stage, the Roll Out animation will only occur when backed against "flat" ledges (i.e. Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, but not Yoshi's Island, Pictochat).
- Depending on your spacing, WKCing or the Roll Out animation can also occur between platforms that are spaced correctly. For instance: the two lower platforms on Battle Field; the two platforms on Pokemon Stadium 1 during its neutral phase.
- When practicing your spacing to WKC correctly, use a stage with distinctive markings on the floor. Final Destination, Battle Field, Smashville, and the WiFi practice stage when waiting for a match to start are all great practice stages. Eventually the correct spacing will be second nature.
3. "Z1gman Comboing": At Ledge, SH Tipman -> Guaranteed(?) Aerials NEW (Discussion begins on p. 8)
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process (developed by Z1GMA)
Application
Notes
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process (developed by Z1GMA)
- Your opponent must be fairly close to the ledge
- With your back facing the opponent, SH Tipman UAir the opponent so he falls from the stage, but does not ledge grab.
- Do not land on the ground. Immediately after connecting with the Tipman, DI beyond the ledge, following your falling opponent.
- Without fast falling, input a DAir. We're not 100% sure, but it appears that after the Tipman, the opponent is in some free-fall animation for a long enough duration of time that your DAir will connect before they regain control. This obviously needs testing.
- As shown in the video, there are many other followups to the Tipman, but since DAir is the meat of the discovery, the rest you can figure out by watching Z1GMA's awesome video or by testing on your own.
- In terms of button input, I've found this to be optimal to avoid the fast fall, though Z1GMA should feel free to correct me here. Short Hop with X/Y. Tipman UAir with C-Stick up while DIing with the control stick DOWN and AWAY from the ledge at 45 degrees (similarly to how you might Thunderstorm while moving laterally). While still holding DOWN on the control stick, DAir with C-Stick down. Continuing to hold DOWN during the DAir prevents Fast Falling.
- While washing the blood of your dead opponent from your hands, thank Z1GMA and pray for forgiveness for the murder of thine enemies.
Application
Z1GMA's made a fantastic video outlining the basic premise of his discovery, as well as showing some cavalier variations thereof. He PMed me with the discovery this morning, and I said I'd be glad to do a write-up for him in DSL since English isn't his first language, so here you go. I'm not blind to this technique as I of course did testing as soon as he presented the concept to me, but bear in mind that any information contained herein is subject to change following more testing and upon Z1gma seeing my write-up.
For ease of writing - and in the interest of giving credit where credit's due - I suggest we refer to this concept as Z1gman Comboing (get it?). This combo relies on the suggestion that after a Tipman which pushes the opponent from the stage, it appears that the opponent enters a free-fall from which he can not escape for a certain number of frames. This is NOT confirmed, and everything contained hereafter should be taken as hypothetical (but then again, that's what DSL is all about). Obviously if this is a "true" combo, we'll call it a combo, and if it's not, we'll call it a string or something.
The most immediate application is also the most obvious. If your opponent is at the edge, RAR approach with a Tipman that passes by the ledge and DAir him. Some of the other, easily achievable strings are:
As shown in the video at around 0:45, after a Get Up Attack from a hanging opponent, you can transition nicely into a Z1gman Combo. Z1gma also shows how you can read a Tech following a Gerudo near the ledge at around 0:50, and if your opponent ends up with proper spacing from the ledge, you can use a Z1gman Combo to chase his Tech after the Gerudo. It has yet to be seen how much flexibility there is in Z1gman Comboing as a Tech Chasing possibility, but it would seem that an quick turn Tipman would work in conjunction with Gerudos which leave Ganon facing the ledge. As a side note: bear in mind how you might use this technique in conjunction with Chainchoking.
In the interest of bringing together some of the concepts contained in DSL, one might consider how you could use Buffered Dash Canceling (see section below) in its various permutations in conjunction with Zigman Comboing. For instance, using BDCed UAirs in sequence to Tipman your opponent to the edge. I'd be getting far ahead of myself if I try to explain some of the more exciting prospects I see in how BDC and Z1gman Comboing might work in tandem, but don't worry, all the necessary information for these ideas will be posted soon. I have to work out the details of my next video which involves the Spot Dodge, first. Things will be getting really crazy thereafter.
Expect a significant update to this application section if my ideas come to fruition (which they WILL, because they're just too good.)
For ease of writing - and in the interest of giving credit where credit's due - I suggest we refer to this concept as Z1gman Comboing (get it?). This combo relies on the suggestion that after a Tipman which pushes the opponent from the stage, it appears that the opponent enters a free-fall from which he can not escape for a certain number of frames. This is NOT confirmed, and everything contained hereafter should be taken as hypothetical (but then again, that's what DSL is all about). Obviously if this is a "true" combo, we'll call it a combo, and if it's not, we'll call it a string or something.
The most immediate application is also the most obvious. If your opponent is at the edge, RAR approach with a Tipman that passes by the ledge and DAir him. Some of the other, easily achievable strings are:
- Tipman UAir -> UAir -> Rising UAir -> Up B Ledge Grab
- Tipman UAir -> Footstool -> DJ Ledge Grab
As shown in the video at around 0:45, after a Get Up Attack from a hanging opponent, you can transition nicely into a Z1gman Combo. Z1gma also shows how you can read a Tech following a Gerudo near the ledge at around 0:50, and if your opponent ends up with proper spacing from the ledge, you can use a Z1gman Combo to chase his Tech after the Gerudo. It has yet to be seen how much flexibility there is in Z1gman Comboing as a Tech Chasing possibility, but it would seem that an quick turn Tipman would work in conjunction with Gerudos which leave Ganon facing the ledge. As a side note: bear in mind how you might use this technique in conjunction with Chainchoking.
In the interest of bringing together some of the concepts contained in DSL, one might consider how you could use Buffered Dash Canceling (see section below) in its various permutations in conjunction with Zigman Comboing. For instance, using BDCed UAirs in sequence to Tipman your opponent to the edge. I'd be getting far ahead of myself if I try to explain some of the more exciting prospects I see in how BDC and Z1gman Comboing might work in tandem, but don't worry, all the necessary information for these ideas will be posted soon. I have to work out the details of my next video which involves the Spot Dodge, first. Things will be getting really crazy thereafter.
Expect a significant update to this application section if my ideas come to fruition (which they WILL, because they're just too good.)Notes
- This seems to work excellently at low percentages. Tipman UAir -> DAir appears to be a guaranteed followup at 0%. We don't yet know what percentages are optimal, nor to we know how a diminished/stale UAir will effect this string/combo.
- Z1gman = THE man
4. Ledge -> Stage Aerial Options (Discussion hasn't yet begun)
You're GROUNDed!
1. Buffered Dash Canceling (Discussion begins on p. 2)
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process
Application
Notes
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process
- Perform a Dash.
- While still holding the direction in which you Dashed, Jump.
- As you land, buffer another Dash in either direction.
- Repeat as steps 2 and 3.
- You can perform any ACing aerial instead of the jump. This includes (subjectively ordered in terms of relevance): Air Dodge, UAir, BAir, DAir.
Application
There are seemingly many applications for BDC. Realistically, you're not often going to go running across FD in a BDCed UAir chain like I do in the video. I'm going to try to break down how each aerial COULD be used in game. Most Brawl players are probably doing this without knowing it. That is, it's not at all difficult to cancel your dash with a jump, and people do it all the time. What's interesting to Ganon mains, however, is that due to his weight : jump height ratio, he's able to perform some pretty interesting varieties of the BDC. This is the case because Ganon's short hop sets himself up for so many ACed aerials which allow for a buffered followup upon landing. The followup, in this case, is a dash, which is immediately canceled into another aerial. Like I said, you're not going to chain aerials across the stage like I do in the video (with the possible exception of Air Dodge, which I'll get to below), but hopefully we will begin to use this technique almost automatically as a way of honing our spacing and increasing our attack range.
UAir and BAir will most likely be used similarly in conjunction with the BDC. Likely, the BDC will be used as a way of both increasing the attack range of UAir and BAir (by Dashing and DIing while in the air in the same direction) or "moonwalking" them in sequence like I do in the video around 1:00 with UAir as a retreating/edgeguarding technique (by Dashing and DIing while in the air in opposite directions). At around :43 in the video, I UAir back and forth over the same bit of ground. I dream that someday we may get a bounce lock on heavies using this tactic, but I'm not holding my breath. I perform the same maneuver with BAir at around 1:25.
DAir can be chained, but honestly, why would you? I don't really see the point in explaining the application of a DAir in conjunction with the BDC because this is basically tried and true Thunder Storming territory. The purpose of showing that DAir CAN in fact be ACed while covering the large lateral range that BDC allows is really just to point out and obviate something you were probably doing anyway. DAir is probably the least exciting of all the aerials, but I showed it just for the sake of the video.
When I first found out that Air Dodges could be chained, that's when I decided to make this concept a topic for DSL. This is, by far, the most exciting possibility of all. Simply chaining Air Dodge into Air Dodge via BDCs leaves Ganon vulnerable for seemingly few frames. I suppose there may be a couple frames of landing lag each time you touch ground and a couple frames before the next Air Dodge comes out. This lead me to begin experimenting with buffering a Shield or a Spot Dodge each time I landed rather than just immediately chaining another BDCed Air Dodge. Both methods seem to hold great promise. While I still don't believe that we'll be able to approach ad nauseum on a whim by just chaining Air Dodges via BDC, I do believe we've gained a way to cover a lot of ground, very quickly, with VERY little vulnerability.
Buffering in a Shield after landing the Air Dodge sets you up for a few things. If Ganon has any good OoS options (no seriously...does he?), then you could use a BDCed AD into a Shield as a way of safely approaching from mid to close distance. You might use a BDCed AD into a Shield as a way of quickly shield grabbing someone. I mean, Ganon's grab does come out pretty freaking fast. Perhaps we can Reverse Pivot Grab out of this as well, but I'm not sure yet...trying puts my fingers in a knot.
Buffering in a Spot Dodge allows for some similarly crazy stuff. As a side note towards the end of my video, I show how you can "slide" forward out of a spot dodge. I'm still contemplating making a separate topic in DSL about using the Spot Dodge's IASA frames to slide forward, and I probably still will make that topic, but for the mean time, just know that if you hold forward while spot dodging and input your attack, you will slide forward to varying degrees before the attack comes out. In the video, I slide into an FTilt because it's the easiest attack to show, but you can similarly slide your DTilt and Jab forward as well. I show a "combo" of sorts at the end of the video where I use the BDCed AD to buffered Spot Dodge as a way of approaching my opponent and then slide my FTilt into range. This is REALLY exciting to me. I mean...by Ganon's standards, he's covering a lot of distance, safely, very quickly.
UAir and BAir will most likely be used similarly in conjunction with the BDC. Likely, the BDC will be used as a way of both increasing the attack range of UAir and BAir (by Dashing and DIing while in the air in the same direction) or "moonwalking" them in sequence like I do in the video around 1:00 with UAir as a retreating/edgeguarding technique (by Dashing and DIing while in the air in opposite directions). At around :43 in the video, I UAir back and forth over the same bit of ground. I dream that someday we may get a bounce lock on heavies using this tactic, but I'm not holding my breath. I perform the same maneuver with BAir at around 1:25.
DAir can be chained, but honestly, why would you? I don't really see the point in explaining the application of a DAir in conjunction with the BDC because this is basically tried and true Thunder Storming territory. The purpose of showing that DAir CAN in fact be ACed while covering the large lateral range that BDC allows is really just to point out and obviate something you were probably doing anyway. DAir is probably the least exciting of all the aerials, but I showed it just for the sake of the video.
When I first found out that Air Dodges could be chained, that's when I decided to make this concept a topic for DSL. This is, by far, the most exciting possibility of all. Simply chaining Air Dodge into Air Dodge via BDCs leaves Ganon vulnerable for seemingly few frames. I suppose there may be a couple frames of landing lag each time you touch ground and a couple frames before the next Air Dodge comes out. This lead me to begin experimenting with buffering a Shield or a Spot Dodge each time I landed rather than just immediately chaining another BDCed Air Dodge. Both methods seem to hold great promise. While I still don't believe that we'll be able to approach ad nauseum on a whim by just chaining Air Dodges via BDC, I do believe we've gained a way to cover a lot of ground, very quickly, with VERY little vulnerability.
Buffering in a Shield after landing the Air Dodge sets you up for a few things. If Ganon has any good OoS options (no seriously...does he?), then you could use a BDCed AD into a Shield as a way of safely approaching from mid to close distance. You might use a BDCed AD into a Shield as a way of quickly shield grabbing someone. I mean, Ganon's grab does come out pretty freaking fast. Perhaps we can Reverse Pivot Grab out of this as well, but I'm not sure yet...trying puts my fingers in a knot.
Buffering in a Spot Dodge allows for some similarly crazy stuff. As a side note towards the end of my video, I show how you can "slide" forward out of a spot dodge. I'm still contemplating making a separate topic in DSL about using the Spot Dodge's IASA frames to slide forward, and I probably still will make that topic, but for the mean time, just know that if you hold forward while spot dodging and input your attack, you will slide forward to varying degrees before the attack comes out. In the video, I slide into an FTilt because it's the easiest attack to show, but you can similarly slide your DTilt and Jab forward as well. I show a "combo" of sorts at the end of the video where I use the BDCed AD to buffered Spot Dodge as a way of approaching my opponent and then slide my FTilt into range. This is REALLY exciting to me. I mean...by Ganon's standards, he's covering a lot of distance, safely, very quickly.
Notes
- As shown in the video, if you Dash one direction and DI your aerial the opposite direction, you will get a nice "moonwalking" effect.
ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS
UPDATES
- 1/22/09 - Added the "Z1gman Comboing" topic to the Ganon on the (L)edge discussion section.
- 1/20/09 - Added the Wizard Kick Canceling 101 topic to the Ganon on the (L)edge discussion section.
- 1/16/09 - Added the freaking awesome DAD's Smash Lab image that Z1GMA made. Visit here for more LAWLZ.
- 1/7/09 - Added the "You're GROUNDed!" section for ground based discussions. First topic is Buffered Dash Canceling: An Introduction.
- 1/5/09 - So it begins. DSL is now in session. First section is "Ganon on the (L)edge" for ledge based discussions. First topic is Ledge Hop -> instant Double Jump.
