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Allowing No Fatigue/No Forced Switch PT Hacks in Tourney Play

Steeler

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First, a little backstory...

(general info about the two different kinds of hacks in Brawl)

There are two kinds of hacks for Brawl, gentlemen. Those that change the way the game is played...and those that don't. Examples of the former are increased hitstun as players are forced to learn how to execute and counter combos and L-canceling, which forces players to learn what is still punishable OoS and what isn't, along with the timing for L-canceling. Examples of the latter vary from something as harmless as infinite replays and unrestricted camera to no tripping. No tripping does not change the way the game is played, ie you do not play the game differently when tripping is on and when tripping is off because tripping is a rare occurrence (or should be). The general consensus is that a game with no tripping would be superior to a game with tripping. It's a slight matter, but that's the reason that no tripping is not much of an issue. Some tournaments even activate it for grand finals sets, to ensure a tournament is not won or lost on the random slight of unnecessary chance.

In fact, you can consider hacks as extensions of the rules we accept as tournament standards, which are intended to create a better competitive game. What is the tangible difference between banning Meta Knight's Infinite Dimensional Cape technique and simply removing it from the game with hacks? The difference between banning Dedede's standing infinites and using hacks to remove it from the game? The difference is that these rules are simple to abide and are not outside of player control, so hacks are not needed. Tripping is impossible to control (unless you never ever dash, but then that is a lol idea) and thus hacks are necessary to remove and/or control it.

There is another (obvious) difference which I'll cover later.

There is a problem with hacks in competitive Brawl play (or any game in general, I'd assume), and it is that they lead to a slippery slope. Hacks are based on "making the game better". A noble and reasonable cause, but that is quite subjective, and thus the further down the slope you travel...the more problems you'll cause. Where do you draw the line? No tripping is generally agreed upon as "making the game better". Increased hitstun is much more disputed. And it is because it drastically changes the way the game is played. It's better for one player because they played Melee and/or have studied potential combos in Brawl, but not for another who never competitively played Melee. So the former would likely prefer or at least be more comfortable with the added hitstun, while the latter likely would not.

So drawing the line or "boundary" for hacks should logically be focused on whether the hack improves the game without drastically changing it.

(specific analysis of PT hacks and what the Brawl scene would be like)

Now we approach the topic of PT hacks. We must answer two questions. Do they make the game "better"? Do they drastically change the way Brawl is played at a competitive level?

First let's describe what the hacks actually do. The first is a No Forced Switch hack. It simply makes it so when a Pokemon Trainer Pokemon loses a stock, the same Pokemon comes out on spawn, instead of the next Pokemon in order. The second is a No Fatigue hack. It eliminates the stamina aspect of the PT Pokemon, so they do not tire after two minutes (minus 1 second for almost every attempted attack). These two codes, used together, make it so players can play only one Pokemon throughout an entire match without being encouraged to switch due to stamina. Now players can main one Pokemon without having to deal with the other two, although the Down Special move will still swap Pokemon if used.

Let's suppose that these hacks were allowed for tournament play (although there is a huge obstacle preventing this, which I will discuss later). How would it make the game better?

Well, players are basically presented with the possibility of three more individual characters to use in tournaments, now that using the other two is not required. Charizard and Squirtle, individually, are definitely tournament viable, although they would likely be ranked slightly above or below the middle of the roster in a tier list. Ivysaur is, in this Trainer's 9 month experience, inferior to the other two due to a lack of reliable KO moves and one of the most vulnerable recoveries in the game. But hey, if you would want to use just Ivysaur, go right ahead! But this is the simplest and greatest benefit of the hacks. Now every single one of you would have the opportunity to learn three "new" characters that you may not have bothered to learn before.

These hacks would give players the ability to use one of these characters as a main or as a counterpick to their best matchups. Solo Charizard, for example, does relatively well (ie about 40/60) against Meta Knight due to his impressive damage racking potential, solid defensive options, difficult to gimp recovery, and variety of potential KO moves. Squirtle has been mentioned as a solid answer to Olimar (about Squirtle 60/40 Olimar) because Olimar has difficulty punishing some well spaced approaches and Squirtle's very quick attacks have the priority to beat out Olimar's Pikmin attacks head on. For example, Squirtle's 1-frame jab attack will go through a Smash attack Pikmin, and Fair/Bair will outprioritize a Smash attack or aerial. Ivysaur, surprisingly, has an even matchup (or close to it) against Snake due to the range of some of her tilts and aerials, Bullet Seed's capability as a powerful punisher for a dodged tilt attack, and the fact that Razor Leaf has "laser priority" and can pass through and detonate Snake's grenades.

As you can see, these options would provide every player three more character options. These characters are already in the game and none of them are metagame changing (you would not suddenly see any of these three Pokemon placing first at tournaments). Again, the term "better" is subjective, but I speculate that many Brawlers would not feel that the tournament scene would be worse if this were to happen.

But would it drastically change the way the game is played? I don't believe so. None of these characters are good enough to become a top 10 tourney character (Charizard may be close). Tournament players should not suddenly become overwhelmed by a massive growth of Charizards, Squirtles, or Ivysaurs in any given tournament, they simply aren't that good. Regardless, brawlers should already know how to play against the three Pokemon because...well they are already in the game.

However, I do see two potential counterarguments to this point.

The first is what the fate would be of Pokemon Trainer as we know him. Some of you may be concerned that in liberating the three Pokemon, PT himself would be thrown under the bus. My opinion is that he would not change much. He's already the 6th worst character in the game, and the worst newcomer!

Seriously though, he would not drop at all (mainly cuz he's just better than at LEAST the bottom 4 characters, and probably more). I've looked at PT's matchups more than almost any other player out there. It is my opinion that Pokemon Trainer with forced switch and stamina is a better answer than any Solo Poke in the majority of matchups. The only times a Solo Poke can plausibly perform better is when Squirtle is vulnerable to some kind of grab release to KO bull, and against Meta Knight/Marth/Falco, likely PT's three absolute worst matchups. PT players are better off counterpicking the above three with another character anyway. There would still definitely be an incentive to play Pokemon Trainer as is, and perhaps more players would pick him up after experiencing one or two Solo Pokemon. Ivysaur may go even with Snake, but the ability to switch to improve KO power and tank stocks with Charizard, and pressure Snake at low percent with Squirtle combos, makes a very good PT player a better challenge to Snake than just a very good Ivysaur. You can cover up a Pokemon's weaknesses with switching, although in some matchups, one or two Pokemon are too much of a weakness for PT to work well. So because of this, I feel that PT would not suddenly become nonexistent in competitive play, nor would this be PT getting a significant "boost" to improve character balance. A third hack to make switching impossible for solo Pokemon would not be a bad idea.

The second counterargument is that although players should already know how to play against the Pokemon, some characters may become significantly less tournament viable because of the hacks. Ness players may now fear Charizard's guaranteed chain grab release without the comfort of knowing that it is forced to switch upon death. However, through my work in charge as a main Pokemon Trainer matchup dude, I am confident that these kinds of matchups are very rare or simply do not exist. I am almost certain that for every single character in this game, there is a worse matchup against a better character than any of the Pokemon. None of them have an inescapable chaingrab or death combo, or overly powerful technique/strategy (Rock Smash is **** good though). The only possible exception I can think of is Charizard's grab release against Ness. Even then, Charizard's size and mass lends itself to potent Ness combos, some stemming from PK Fire pillars. Whether the Charizard matchup is worse for Ness than something like Meta Knight, Snake, or Dedede is unclear.

Still, techniques allowed in many areas like Dedede's infinites and Pika/ZSS/Sheik **** on Fox are much more devastating than anything a PT Pokemon can do. Allowing Solo Pokemon would, almost assuredly, only slightly change the Brawl metagame, and I feel it would be for the better.

In conclusion, I think the PT hacks pass the test of both improving the game but not drastically changing the way the game is played at a tournament level.


(the biggest and simplest problem with allowing these hacks)

Now here's the big issue and reason why rules are different from hacks, which I purposely saved for last...

The fact that the PT hacks are, after all, hacks. Allowing hacks simply presents a problem at tournaments because not every Wii would be equipped with Homebrew Channel (which is why no tripping code should not be allowed, because it'd be unfair). Additionally, there is the problem of other illegal hacks activated during tournament matches.

Both of these problems have solutions. Should TO's allow the hacks in their tourney, they should request players who volunteer their Wii's for the tournament to specify whether or not they have Homebrew Channel installed and are able to activate the hacks on their Wiis. During tournament, these Wiis should be clearly specified as the Wiis with PT hacks on so that players can request them ahead of time if they plan on playing a solo Pokemon.

The issue of illegal hacks being activated can be resolved by TO/pool leaders supervising the application of the hacks...perhaps by having a laptop on hand with the code software installed to make sure the only hacks being activated are those that are allowed by the tournament.

Regardless, these issues of are the biggest obstacles, imo, with allowing the hacks in tournament play. I don't think these would be serious problems at small to mid sized tournaments, but at regional or national events with 100+ players, I think the extra work required by the TO would be enough to keep the hacks disallowed in the tourneys that would matter the most. Which is a shame, because I think that Brawl would be (slightly) better for it, and most players would enjoy the option of playing three more characters.

So anyway, please feel free to comment, agree, disagree, complain, whatever. But I do think that this is something that should seriously be considered by the SBR(-B).

PS http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=657 i've made a group if you support the hacks in tourney play

cuz for every cause

there must be an swf group

rule #52 of swf
 

Browny

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well i skim read it all, and have though about it all before but I came to my own conclusions a while back.

PT's ability to switch is one of his advantages. At 0% even stock standings you can use ivysaur to rack up insane damage when the enemy cant DI out of bullet seen and squirtles crazy utilt. then conviniently switch to charizard when it comes to landing the KO since he can afford to be punished after missing a KO attack while the other 2 will surely get KO'd. Of course the forced switch and faitgue are the inbuilt counters to this advantage. Removing the inherent disadvantage on PT players, I liken that to making snake far more floaty so he doesnt get utilt comboed / CG 'd by so many characters.

However annoying and ******** forced switching and fatigue is, you have to admit being able to swap between 3 characters in a match is an advantage of some sort. whether it has no effect on his matchups vs top/high tiers is irrelevant.
 

Steeler

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you could also remove the ability to switch at all, so you are playing a completely different character. which makes a lot of sense to me, because i feel that you should have the option of just playing one without both the disadvantages and advantages of the pt system.
 

Yukiwarashi

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Sorry, I can't say I'm for this at all.

Pokemon Trainer is as he was intended. It sucks, it really does. Especially when you're taunted by the usage of him in SSE, as his Pokemon don't have the stamina limit placed upon them.

Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are meant to be used together. If people cannot handle that, they shouldn't use the character. The game shouldn't be hacked in any way, especially since not everyone has a hacked Wii, and the only thing that should be allowed in tournaments is a non-hacked game that's accessible to everyone.

I can understand how you and others feel, who want to use certain Pokemon individually, but allowing a hack of any kind in a tournament is wrong. Hopefully, we can get better luck in the next Smash installment.

Edit: Oh yeah, by the way...what happens to the Pokemon's down B when this hack is activated? Do they still switch to the other Pokemon?
 

WeirdoZ Inc.

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I think the closest it's ever gonna get Steeler, is if Brawl+ gets a foothold in the Brawl community and starts having separate tourneys. But that's a long shot also, since it's not hugely desirable.
 

Brinzy

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As badly as I want this, I'd probably not take it because that's, in essence, buffing PT solely. Yeah, he's not that great to begin with, but it's still a buff. :x

If they allow this at a local tourney or something though, I'll definitely use PT.
 

Luigi player

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Well it would be nice. I really like playing PT and switching and fatigue is always annoying, but since it's a hack and such I don't think it should be done.

If it would be done it would suck if you wouldn't have the ability to switch...
 

Revven

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Well it would be nice. I really like playing PT and switching and fatigue is always annoying, but since it's a hack and such I don't think it should be done.

If it would be done it would suck if you wouldn't have the ability to switch...
If you read the first post, you'd realize you DO have the ability to switch. Just switch when you do Smash attack that knocks them off stage, problem solved.

Otherwise, if you wanted BOTH types of PTs, just use the "Press R for Independent PT" which is much like ZSS where the Pokemon you select on the character select and you hold R (much like ZSS) you become just that ONE Pokemon without the ability to switch or force switch, all you'd need is that and there'd still be regular PT for those who don't want to main ONE Pokemon.
 

Luigi player

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If you read the first post, you'd realize you DO have the ability to switch. Just switch when you do Smash attack that knocks them off stage, problem solved.

Otherwise, if you wanted BOTH types of PTs, just use the "Press R for Independent PT" which is much like ZSS where the Pokemon you select on the character select and you hold R (much like ZSS) you become just that ONE Pokemon without the ability to switch or force switch, all you'd need is that and there'd still be regular PT for those who don't want to main ONE Pokemon.
If you would've read the first post you'd know why I wrote that.

"A third hack to make switching impossible for solo Pokemon would not be a bad idea."
 

GimR

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I say this might be viable in the future when everyone eventually gets homebrew channel and a set rule could be put in place.

The fact that this isn't so(Like your last major point stated) makes it nonviable because if someone mained Squirtle they'd have to wait for the hacked setup to play their matches.

I have nothing against the stamina hack, that stuff is just stupid
 

metaXzero

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Good post.

Too bad the stupid stigma from hacks in general will hold this back. Hacks are still viewed as "wrong" today. And some people argue creators intent (which is stupid because the creator tried to destroy competitive Smash and we shouldn't care much of what's "intended").

If their was a movement to get this used...
 

ShadowLink84

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no tripping code is a universal cheatand removes something that causes one to lose games.
I think i've lost 30 stocks now or lost tech chases or pressuring to a single trip.
I also ailed to edgeguard too =(

Moving on the PT cheats, regardless of how good they are, do create a slippery slope because it is improving a character while not aiding others.

if cheats were to be considered they would have to be universal, as in all characters would have to have access and derive the same effects.
Of course in spite of trying to create a uniform cheating format there is the issue that not all wii's will be equipped and is even more difficult due to wii update 3.4


@metaxzero: it isn't that cheats are considered bad or anything, its the fact that there is nothing in place that would make it capable of allowing them. There is no universal format and the issue on what cheats to be used as well as the amount of wii's needed to be equipped.

There is some stigma yes, but that is hardly the reasoning that is used to avoid using a cheat format.

Hack=making code
cheats=using code.

RAWR!
 

metaXzero

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no tripping code is a universal cheatand removes something that causes one to lose games.
I think i've lost 30 stocks now or lost tech chases or pressuring to a single trip.
I also ailed to edgeguard too =(

Moving on the PT cheats, regardless of how good they are, do create a slippery slope because it is improving a character while not aiding others.

if cheats were to be considered they would have to be universal, as in all characters would have to have access and derive the same effects.
Of course in spite of trying to create a uniform cheating format there is the issue that not all wii's will be equipped and is even more difficult due to wii update 3.4


@metaxzero: it isn't that cheats are considered bad or anything, its the fact that there is nothing in place that would make it capable of allowing them. There is no universal format and the issue on what cheats to be used as well as the amount of wii's needed to be equipped.

There is some stigma yes, but that is hardly the reasoning that is used to avoid using a cheat format.

Hack=making code
cheats=using code.

RAWR!
Regular PT can still be played. This basically just creates 3 more characters, not buff an old one.

For me, as long as it dooesn't significantly change the game (like Brawl+), it wouldn't be bad.
 

ShadowLink84

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Regular PT can still be played. This basically just creates 3 more characters, not buff an old one.

For me, as long as it dooesn't significantly change the game (like Brawl+), it wouldn't be bad.
by removing the limited that Pokemon Trainer has is buffing the character because it opens up more options he normally would not have.
 

cutter

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I'm going to have to agree with ShadowLink here. Why is it fair that we can use hacks to make PT a more tournament viable character, but we leave other characters like CF, Ganondorf, JP, etc. in the dark?

I'm pretty sure players who play other low tier characters would want the same kind of hacks to make their characters better as well.

If you want to give PT no force switching and no fatigue, I don't see why we couldn't hack the game to make other characters better.
 

metaXzero

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I'm going to have to agree with ShadowLink here. Why is it fair that we can use hacks to make PT a more tournament viable character, but we leave other characters like CF, Ganondorf, JP, etc. in the dark?

I'm pretty sure players who play other low tier characters would want the same kind of hacks to make their characters better as well.

If you want to give PT no force switching and no fatigue, I don't see why we couldn't hack the game to make other characters better.
A problem with that comparison is while this PT hack simply removes the fatigue system (the Pokemon themselves play the same as they did), the other low-tiers would require an intense amount of testing without breaking or drastically altering them when buffing.

As said, I only see this hack as making 3 new characters. PT is still there.
 

Ussi

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I would actually like this! I would then start 2nding charizard. (I can't play PT cause of Ivysaur and Squirtle >_<)
 
D

Deleted member

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I'm going to have to agree with ShadowLink here. Why is it fair that we can use hacks to make PT a more tournament viable character, but we leave other characters like CF, Ganondorf, JP, etc. in the dark?

I'm pretty sure players who play other low tier characters would want the same kind of hacks to make their characters better as well.

If you want to give PT no force switching and no fatigue, I don't see why we couldn't hack the game to make other characters better.
just to let you know, CF is high tier in brawl+
 

Mith_

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just to let you know, CF is high tier in brawl+
show me this brawl+ tier list u speak of. (im not saying i dont believe you but i didnt know they had one haha.)

to make this most balanced i guess the two options would be:

no stam + forced switch

or

no stam + unable to switch

Now I'm all for what steeler is for because I like to use Squirtle and Charizard without having the trouble of having to switch everytime I lose a stock but for tourney play the above two options I guess would make it so it doesn't seem like you are buffing one character while leaving the rest behind.
screw the rest they dont have to switch when they die >.>
 
D

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there isn't anactual tier list (yet) but CF is amazing in brawl+, only his priority is still meh.
 

Tenki

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[1] Regardless, brawlers should already know how to play against the three Pokemon because...well they are already in the game.

...

Both of these problems have solutions. Should TO's allow the hacks in their tourney, they should request players who volunteer their Wii's for the tournament to specify whether or not they have Homebrew Channel installed and are able to activate the hacks on their Wiis. During tournament, these Wiis should be clearly specified as the Wiis with PT hacks on so that players can request them ahead of time if they plan on playing a solo Pokemon.
[1] This one made me laugh. For obvious reasons, like people not knowing certain matchups. They should, but they don't. But somehow they may claim to know the matchups anyway.

/lowtierrant

[2] I don't remember the specific details, but haven't there been Wii system updates that prevent people from installing certain hacks onto the Wii? I don't remember which hacks it affected, but I think this'd further limit that. Someone who's familiar with all this should help clarify 9_9;
 
D

Deleted member

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no the homebrew channel can still easily be installed, just make sure you use the right version of TL hack
 

adumbrodeus

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no tripping code is a universal cheatand removes something that causes one to lose games.
I think i've lost 30 stocks now or lost tech chases or pressuring to a single trip.
I also ailed to edgeguard too =(

Moving on the PT cheats, regardless of how good they are, do create a slippery slope because it is improving a character while not aiding others.

if cheats were to be considered they would have to be universal, as in all characters would have to have access and derive the same effects.
Of course in spite of trying to create a uniform cheating format there is the issue that not all wii's will be equipped and is even more difficult due to wii update 3.4


@metaxzero: it isn't that cheats are considered bad or anything, its the fact that there is nothing in place that would make it capable of allowing them. There is no universal format and the issue on what cheats to be used as well as the amount of wii's needed to be equipped.

There is some stigma yes, but that is hardly the reasoning that is used to avoid using a cheat format.

Hack=making code
cheats=using code.

RAWR!
No, actually, that's really not the issue.


When you're messing with the game's programming itself then you can do fine balancing, so you can edit for whatever reason you feel like.

That's the core difference between banning and programming, the ability to make fine adjustments, so really, while it is a slippery slope, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that.


No, the problem is the inability to establish a standard, because this requires all competitive players to own and operate a hacked wii with this hack. It's just not possible logistically, especially with the system update making it more prohibative.
 
D

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you sound like someone that never even tried installing the homebrew channel. it only takes 15 min. and the last update did almost nothing.
 

Yuna

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Why would we? Pokémon Trainer suffers because of his character design. The character was not designed to be three characters molded into one. It was designed to be a single character with three different movesets that you will eventually practically have to switch between.

If you choose to pick up PT, this is a weakness you'll have to contend with (besides the obvious weakness of every single one of the movesets being either "meh" or "suck"). This is the equivalent of hacking Captain Falcon's Up B because it sucks so darn much.

Why should we allow a hack to make your main better? I'll tell you PT mainers what I tell the Donkey Kong and Bowser mainers (also, occasionally and in the past, the Earthbounders, Samus and the Marios): Either suck it up or switch mains.
 

metaXzero

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.....Why are people coming into this thread with the thought "this hack makes PT a better character" instead of "this hack makes the individual Pokemon their own characters AND retains the original PT for those who want".

No, I'm not pushing for this to be used. I simply don't see "why not".
 

Yuna

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.....Why are people coming into this thread with the thought "this hack makes PT a better character" instead of "this hack makes the individual Pokemon their own characters AND retains the original PT for those who want".
I'd like to make it clear that I was arguing against this as well. First of all, a hack? Second of all, if you want to main PT, live with it. Neither of PTs characters are single characters you can main without ever having to play as any of the other Pokémon.

Live with your horrible character choice or switch mains.
 

ftl

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The big issue with hacks is the complexity of actually getting any hack, not anything about this particular one. Sure, if it were possible to have lots of hacks to make the game more balanced and better, I'd be all for it. But there are major issues with expecting any hacks at all to become tournament-standard

1) Firmware updates can break the homebrew channel. What happens when there's an update released the week before a tournament, and the homebrew channel folks can't get a new version out in time? Suddenly everyone that was intending to main a hacked character can't.

Remember, Homebrew is an arms race between the freelancers making it and Nintendo trying to shut them out, without breaking too many other things. So far, freelancers have stayed out ahead. Will this stay true?

2) It introduces a strong discouragement of new players. Someone goes to a tournament, finds himself playing against a Pokemon Trainer... waits out the fatigue period on the pokemon he doesn't want to fight... ...wait, no he doesn't, because it turns out that it's being played on a wii with different rules than a standard one. Oops. And so on with any hacks - most people won't have them, especially players just getting into the competitive scene. When people go to a tournament, we want their impression to be "wow, the people really into this game are good!" and not "wow, the people really into this game are cheating."

3) Hacking the game may or may not actually be legal. (And, regardless of whether it's legal, it voids your warranty.) Places that I've looked on line have people asking the question "will this break my ability to play online?" And the answer they've been getting is that "as of yet, people have not reported problems." No guarantees - maybe one of these days if the hacks become too prevalent, Nintendo will decide to start caring enough to lock them out of online play. Oops. Or when they become prevalent enough that a major prize is given out for winning a hacked-brawl tournament, they'll care enough to sue. Or maybe not. Who knows.

So hacks in general are the issue, nothing about this specific one. If we were playing with hacks on, we'd be playing Brawl+ with all that that entails.
 

metaXzero

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I'd like to make it clear that I was arguing against this as well. First of all, a hack? Second of all, if you want to main PT, live with it. Neither of PTs characters are single characters you can main without ever having to play as any of the other Pokémon.

Live with your horrible character choice or switch mains.
As I sort of said Yuna, why should they have to live with original PT if they don't have to? I'd understand if this was buffing like that Falcon example of yours or if individually and without stamina, the Pokemon are broken.
 

Yuna

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As I sort of said Yuna, why should they have to live with original PT if they don't have to? I'd understand if this was buffing like that Falcon example of yours or if individually and without stamina, the Pokemon are broken.
Why should we have to life with the various infinites and match-up breaking chaingrabs and combos in this game if we don't have to? Why should we have to live with unviable characters if we don't have to? Why should we have to live with a Top Tier which dominates the metagame to the extext it is currently dominating it if we don't have to?

Your only real answer to that is: "It would be too hard and time-consuming to orchestrate such a finely detailed rebalancing on the game!", but that would only apply if to the cases where such fine tuning is required. So your arguments for allowing this are arguments for banning infinites and match-up-breaking chaingrabs, really.
 
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The big issue with hacks is the complexity of actually getting any hack, not anything about this particular one. Sure, if it were possible to have lots of hacks to make the game more balanced and better, I'd be all for it. But there are major issues with expecting any hacks at all to become tournament-standard

1) Firmware updates can break the homebrew channel. What happens when there's an update released the week before a tournament, and the homebrew channel folks can't get a new version out in time? Suddenly everyone that was intending to main a hacked character can't.

Remember, Homebrew is an arms race between the freelancers making it and Nintendo trying to shut them out, without breaking too many other things. So far, freelancers have stayed out ahead. Will this stay true?

2) It introduces a strong discouragement of new players. Someone goes to a tournament, finds himself playing against a Pokemon Trainer... waits out the fatigue period on the pokemon he doesn't want to fight... ...wait, no he doesn't, because it turns out that it's being played on a wii with different rules than a standard one. Oops. And so on with any hacks - most people won't have them, especially players just getting into the competitive scene. When people go to a tournament, we want their impression to be "wow, the people really into this game are good!" and not "wow, the people really into this game are cheating."

3) Hacking the game may or may not actually be legal. (And, regardless of whether it's legal, it voids your warranty.) Places that I've looked on line have people asking the question "will this break my ability to play online?" And the answer they've been getting is that "as of yet, people have not reported problems." No guarantees - maybe one of these days if the hacks become too prevalent, Nintendo will decide to start caring enough to lock them out of online play. Oops. Or when they become prevalent enough that a major prize is given out for winning a hacked-brawl tournament, they'll care enough to sue. Or maybe not. Who knows.

So hacks in general are the issue, nothing about this specific one. If we were playing with hacks on, we'd be playing Brawl+ with all that that entails.
1) don't update until after the tournament maybe?
2) ehm if the tournament doesn't clearly state what codes are used it is a bad tournament. period.
3) THEY ARE LEGAL >_>
who the hell would you sue anyway, the hosts of the tournament? that would only mean no BIG tournament might be organised
 
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Why should we have to life with the various infinites and match-up breaking chaingrabs and combos in this game if we don't have to? Why should we have to live with unviable characters if we don't have to? Why should we have to live with a Top Tier which dominates the metagame to the extext it is currently dominating it if we don't have to?

Your only real answer to that is: "It would be too hard and time-consuming to orchestrate such a finely detailed rebalancing on the game!", but that would only apply if to the cases where such fine tuning is required. So your arguments for allowing this are arguments for banning infinites and match-up-breaking chaingrabs, really.
sorry for the double post but we are already very far in actually doing all that, the only reason we are not nerfing MK yet for example is because we have to agree on other codes first. also DDD has already lost his chaingrab.
 
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yuna was talking about brawl+, and I quoted him. READ.
 

metaXzero

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yuna was talking about brawl+, and I quoted him. READ.
I don't see Yuna referring to Brawl+. I see him referring to all the flaws of Brawl and basically, that you can't have this PT code without those things coming into question (which I disagree with since I look at this code as "adding 3 characters" instead of "buffing PT").
 

Brinzy

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You're not "adding three characters." You're buffing Pokemon Trainer.

Even if we were "adding three characters", then we'd also, in essence, be removing one. Removing characters is not a good thing. I'm not even trying to draw this to some far-end conclusion here; that's really the truth of it.
 
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