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Chainchoking

TP

Smash Master
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CHAINCHOKING



Ganondorf, the King of Evil, is the strongest character in the game. If he wanted, he could easily destroy all of his opponents. This is clear whenever he chokes them and engulfs them in purple flames of death. However, Ganon pities the pathetic fighters, and so he let's them go without killing them. Unfortunately, this leads to Ganon occasionally losing a match. The following is my attempt to convince Ganon to not let go after he has started choking the enemy. I present to you chainchoking!

What is it?

The idea came to me as soon as Gleam mentioned shielding getup attacks. The basic idea is to stand there after a choke and react to what they do. If they roll, choke. If they attack, shield and then choke. There are several characters who can't escape this until they reach the edge. This allows us to rack up damage and then use some other guaranteed followup, preferably an Ftilt or Fsmash if we can guarantee it, when they are near the edge, thus killing them. This is different from the murder choke tech chasing we know and love as Ganon mains. We used to predict what they would do and catch them if we were successful. This removes guessing from the equation by reacting after they have initiated their response.


Chainchoking- Not for Every Ganon


Chainchoking is hard. Very hard. You must know every animation of the character if you want a chance to succeed, and even then you need great reflexes. Don't even think about trying it online. I expect that we will all get better at this with practice, to the point where it can give us the advantageous matchups we have been longing for. However, this will still only apply for the few Ganons who are capable of doing this.

To make everything easier, let's have some abbreviations and standards:
GUA- getup attack
Out- roll away from Ganon
In- roll toward Ganon
Up- standing up without a GUA
Easy- can be done in regular speed
Medium- can be done in 1/2 speed
Hard- can be done in 1/4 speed

Note that the difficulty ratings will vary for different people, but it would be nice to have a starting point. With time and practice, characters who start in hard could reach easy. However, "easy" is only compared to the others this works on. It is still very hard.


When and Why?​

This tech is more situational than it seems at first glance. The main limiting factor is the difficulty. Ganon almost always has good options after a choke. Chainchoking is guaranteed in theory, risky in reality (or at least until we are good at it, which nobody currently is). We are so good at attacking after a choke that going for a chainchoke and failing is a huge waste. Chainchoking is the best option in most situations if you can do it, especially on places like Final Destination. However, don't go for the chainchoke if a Dtilt or iDA will get the job done.

This tech has more benefits than you would think. Despite the difficulty, this is worth learning for many reasons. First and foremost, damage. Chokes add up quickly, and since the chainchoke ends near the ledge, they are put in a very bad situation from it. Another benefit is that the chokes refresh all your other moves. As you should know, the game keeps track of the last nine moves you have hit with. We don't care if the choke gets stale, so this is restoring the other moves for basically nothing. Another benefit that should not be overlooked is the affect this has on your opponent. He will get demoralized if he gets choked time and time again with no escape. You are crushing his spirit with this move, and that is an advantage that can't be measured. A frustrated opponent is far more likely to make mistakes than a calm one.


The List

Currently, everything here is my own personal testing. Therefore, it is not perfect and quite subjective. Even though I have the full cast listed, I still need you guys to test things out for me.

Difficult- Only for the great Ganons

Bowser
Charizard (His In is very short, so you need to back off a bit and choke in the same direction as you would for his other things. You must space this perfectly, so his In does not come too close and his Out does not go too far.)
Diddy Kong (makes a noise when rolling)
Ice Climbers (one must be dead, obviously)
Ivysaur
King Dedede
Kirby (take a very small step away so the first part of his GUA doesn't get you)
Meta Knight
Olimar (the pikmin hide him pretty well)
Pikachu
Pit (you must powershield the GUA)
R.O.B
Sheik (not that it matters)
Snake
Sonic (he makes a noise at the start of his GUA)
Squirtle
Toon Link
Yoshi


Very Difficult- Well... it's possible

Donkey Kong (makes a noise when he rolls)
Fox
Jigglypuff (B-reversal is required for rolls, they start basically the same)
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Peach (must powershield the GUA)


Impossible
If I don't give a reason, the Out goes too far or too fast.

Captain Falcon (GUA ends too quickly after hit)
Falco
Game and Watch (Only impossible if he is on your left. When he is, your cape conceals his mouth, which is the only thing you can use to predict his GUA)
Ganondorf
Ike
Link
Lucario
Luigi
Marth
Samus (GUA ends to quickly after hit)
Wario
Wolf
Zelda (not that we ever fight Zelda anyway >_>)
Zero Suit Samus


Video


Chainchoking - A Proof of Concept and Introductory Video
DAD made this video that shows what we are talking about. DO NOT say you can chainchoke until you have WATCHED THIS VIDEO!
 

@HomE

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I'm very interested in this after struggling for some time with consistantly getting multiple chokes..

i can try to do some testing and post my results
 

:034:

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I made a test about this quite a while ago... Well, it wasn't exactly alike, but... I did test the distances and if people could be grabbed with another murder choke, but I never completed it on all characters. Might be a bit of a step-up though, so here it is: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178153

I have a wavebird which I can give a different 'control setup', so to say... As if it were always pointing to the right. This should, theoretically, enable me to do a perfect test, including the buffering and the roll.

Even better would be to get frame data for every character's rolls and get up attacks. This would enable to get to an accurate rate of the difficulty... A roll that takes a long time and doesn't cover a lot of distance would obviously be easier.

'Chainchoking' has been around for a long time, so I was a bit confused at first, but you're trying to re-invoke testing for this, which is a great idea in itself. We have a much tighter community now, more willing testers, so this can definitely be done.

EDIT: Ah, and as you say, this is extremely hard to do, especially if you keep your shield up. The shield drop still gives you a few extra frames which might just cost you the extra choke.
 

hyperstation

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Twilight,

Though I completely understand that it's a daunting task to test this on everyone, we need a barometer for quality. That barometer is you as the OP, my friend. Something which requires such diligence and investigation as chainchoking requires that someone takes the reigns and the rest of the driveling masses fan out and help carry the load, but as you've been the figurehead of chainchoking, it's your beast to wrestle, homie. :)

I like the idea of 2 people having to confirm information before you post it in the OP, but unfortunately, I see how this thread could turn into a misguided gangbang if you don't pull in the reigns a little bit and give us a starting point. Nonetheless, I'm stoked and can't wait to see where this goes.

I propose that chainchoking falls under a new category of Ganon play called "Mind Flaying". This is the much older, much more disturbed grandfather of Mind Games. Holding someone in a chainchoke breaks one's spirit and completely ruins their mindset. It's been my experience that he who has mental dominance and is carrying the "momentum" of the match WILL win the match in Brawl.
 

TP

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I forgot to mention that you may need to step forward quickly for some characters to reach their Out. You don't have much time if they roll immediately. If you step too far, they may hit more easily with their GUA.

Dutchman, were you just not paying attention in Gleam's thread when people were saying my discovery was huge and would change the metagame? Where were you? In your thread, which is quite nice, you never mentioned shield the GUA. That is the missing link that gives us an inescapable chain.

DAD, I was afraid you would say that. Yes, I will do what I can to lead this. I'll start doing more serious and diligent testing over the weekend. If that works out, I will center everything around my testing.
 

SaltyKracka

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Well, I can say one thing right off the bat. Chainchoking will not work on Lucario. That's one character that this is completely out of the question for.
 

Gleam

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Since were discussing Jigglypuff in the match up, I say we should start on her first? See how well we can chainchoke her.
 

:034:

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I wasn't really paying attention at all to that thread. x__X

It's not really inescapable... You have to be absolutely one hunderd percent perfect in your calculations, your expectations and reflexes. If you mistime it by only one frame, you could just mess it up.

So basically we need a LOT of testing, probably the most the Ganon boards have done so far, absolute perfection and manliness. What are we waiting for?

PS: It's not really metagame changing, since it's been around around Shin's era... Which is like, right after the Japanese release. We mostly went with prediction on this (which definitely served it's cause) and we still managed to do this a lot.

"You're 1000 years too early if you want to defeat me!".... as they say.

EDIT: We should start with the most used characters, obviously. MK, Snake, Falco, and so on.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Nor will it work on Marth. I'll test a couple of characters, have some free time.

Okay, everyone should know not to chainchoke if you haven't already Dtilted your opponent out of gerudo. Dtilt first, as it racks up damage faster and easier then chainchoking, unless you can't. Either way, it's all up to you.
 

hyperstation

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So basically we need a LOT of testing, probably the most the Ganon boards have done so far, absolute perfection and manliness. What are we waiting for?
Speaking of manliness and chaining...I have a new video coming out soon which involves 2 captain falcons "YES-chaining" an opponent back and forth over and over and over again until he dies off the top of the stage. It's one of the most disgusting, demoralizing things I've ever done. I mean, we're talking 10+ YESes in a row. GROSS.
 

:034:

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Speaking of manliness and chaining...I have a new video coming out soon which involves 2 captain falcons "YES-chaining" an opponent back and forth over and over and over again until he dies off the top of the stage. It's one of the most disgusting, demoralizing things I've ever done. I mean, we're talking 10+ YESes in a row. GROSS.
Oh my god, that sounds amazing. MAKE IT HAPPEN, DAD!

Ray: Why doesn't it work on Marth? I've seen plenty of videos of people tech chasing Marth with Flame Choke over and over.
 

hyperstation

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It won't be coming from me, I have no equipment to do that with. Anyone?
I've got the equipment, and if you want to make a vid, I'd be glad to encode it and send it to you for your youtube upload. Either that or I'm gonna go ahead and nominate Kalm to do it because I believe he's got the equipment and I trust the boy's Ganon skills to the nth degree.

Oh my god, that sounds amazing. MAKE IT HAPPEN, DAD!
I aim to please. And yes, my partner in crime and I are already working on a Ganon Dark Dive variation of the YES-chain. Get hyped for this new DAD joint, homies.

Anyway, I'll stop posting apocalyptically-awesome off topic sh*t now. I promise. :lick:
 

TP

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I've got the equipment, and if you want to make a vid, I'd be glad to encode it and send it to you for your youtube upload. Either that or I'm gonna go ahead and nominate Kalm to do it because I believe he's got the equipment and I trust the boy's Ganon skills to the nth degree.
Don't bother sending it to me, just put it up on yours. There is no pride in youtube video posting. You or Kalm could both do it just fine, I'm sure.
 

:034:

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I just had an idea for this.

Rather than all of us going one character at the time, we should split the work.

Anyone with recording equipment tests the frame data for every character's GUA's and rolls. Swoops, DAD and Ray have these, so they would be excellent candidates. The rest of us goes for the distances: in a bit different way. We all do DIFFERENT characters instead!

For instance, every Ganon main could test about 7 characters, rather than everybody testing 35. This would get much faster results. If someone is unsure of their results, or doubted by another, someone else will confirm or de-confirm this.

This will get us quick and fairly reliable results.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Oh my god, that sounds amazing. MAKE IT HAPPEN, DAD!

Ray: Why doesn't it work on Marth? I've seen plenty of videos of people tech chasing Marth with Flame Choke over and over.
I didn't say that we can't chase Marth at all. Chainchoking doesn't involve anything but gerudo, our shield and reading the opponent's mind.

You must be thinking about tech chasing.
 

SaltyKracka

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I thought this was common knowledge for ganon mains. :/
You've got it wrong. We're talking about chokechaining, reacting to an opponent's DI/actions and choking them out of it, then (hopefully) going for the kill. What you're talking about is tech chasing, which relys on prediction, and is not guaranteed.
 

TP

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I didn't say that we can't chase Marth at all. Chainchoking doesn't involves anything but gerudo, our shield and reading the opponent's mind.

You must be thinking about tech chasing.
Mind reading won't be necessary if we have wonderful reflexes. I don't, but that's why I've never been great at this game. You guys are better than me (most of you), so I hope we can eliminate any guessing with practice.
 

Ray_Kalm

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You've got it wrong. We're talking about chokechaining, reacting to an opponent's DI/actions and choking them out of it, then (hopefully) going for the kill. What you're talking about is tech chasing, which relys on prediction, and is not guaranteed.
Beat me to it.
 

:034:

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Same here (+1 post count), nevermind the fact that it's already nearing my year of birth XD

Anyway, it's nearly midnight here, it's cold and my leg hurts so I guess I'm off to sleep.

G'night G'dorf
 

SaltyKracka

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O...kay. I think I'll take Ganondorf, Ike, Zelda, Shiek, Wolf, and Ness to test on. Hopefully, this works out well for all of us and leads to Ganon's rocketing up the tier list.
 

TP

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O...kay. I think I'll take Ganondorf, Ike, Zelda, Shiek, Wolf, and Ness to test on. Hopefully, this works out well for all of us and leads to Ganon's rocketing up the tier list.
How on earth did you choose that group? Also, this is chainchoking, not chokechaining. They don't call other things grabchains, do they?
 

Ray_Kalm

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O...kay. I think I'll take Ganondorf, Ike, Zelda, Shiek, Wolf, and Ness to test on. Hopefully, this works out well for all of us and leads to Ganon's rocketing up the tier list.
Twilight, write down who's testing who in the opening page, if you were not already.
 

TP

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Can do. I also removed the (Testing Incomplete) so the title would look nicer and because testing won't be truly complete for a long time, if ever.
 

Ray_Kalm

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I've got the equipment, and if you want to make a vid, I'd be glad to encode it and send it to you for your youtube upload. Either that or I'm gonna go ahead and nominate Kalm to do it because I believe he's got the equipment and I trust the boy's Ganon skills to the nth degree.



I aim to please. And yes, my partner in crime and I are already working on a Ganon Dark Dive variation of the YES-chain. Get hyped for this new DAD joint, homies.

Anyway, I'll stop posting apocalyptically-awesome off topic sh*t now. I promise. :lick:
I'll gladly make the video, but what exactly should I put in it? Instructions on how to chokechain, that all?
 

TP

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I'll gladly make the video, but what should I exactly put in it? Instructions on how to chokechain, that all?
Do it in slow-motion, so people can see that it is guaranteed. Give instructions. You only need to do it on one character, such as ROB or Bowser. It doesn't need to be long or anything. Make it clear that this is different from regular tech chasing because this removes guessing, and thanks for doing this.

Oh, and give me credit. ;)
 

hyperstation

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Do it in slow-motion, so people can see that it is guaranteed. Give instructions. You only need to do it on one character, such as ROB or Bowser. It doesn't need to be long or anything. Make it clear that this is different from regular tech chasing because this removes guessing.
I'd do it in slow motion and at full speed. Show how it works when the GUA is powershielded. Show how it works with in, out, up DI. See if there's both a belly down and a belly up animation depending if you choke from the front or back? Make it exhaustive the way I did the BDC video. With instructional videos, I think a lot of repetition is good. I can't wait, Kalm. :)
 

TP

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Nah, I was just casting around for characters and I thought about your Ness and his gay projectiles. Then I thought about Chokechaining for the kill. And then I laughed and added him.
Look at the title of the thread, please.
 

TP

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I'd do it in slow motion and at full speed. Show how it works when the GUA is powershielded. Show how it works with in, out, up DI. See if there's both a belly down and a belly up animation depending if you choke from the front or back? Make it exhaustive the way I did the BDC video. With instructional videos, I think a lot of repetition is good. I can't wait, Kalm. :)
Yes, feel free to make it more detailed and longer, Kalm, but don't feel like you need to. Just go until someone watching it completely understands what is going on here and what they need to do if they want to test this for me.



EDIT: Whoops, forgot I just posted.
 

SaltyKracka

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Dude, chill. Chainchoking, chokechaining, it's all the same thing. So just chill.

At least I'm not calling it tech chasing. >_>
 

TP

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Dude, chill. Chainchoking, chokechaining, it's all the same thing. So just chill.

At least I'm not calling it tech chasing. >_>
LOL.

Should I make the OP more artistic and colorful? Can someone get me a good picture of a Murder Choke?
 
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