Concept of Existence

Ham Enterprises · Jan 10, 2009

I have been thinking alot about this lately, but what if our world, life, and existence is just a extremely advanced program created by a higher race. Because when you think about it, it is entirely possible that we don't even exist, we are just being watched upon and manipulated by something else. And if this were true, then what really is "life " in a sense?

cmpr94x · Jan 10, 2009

Would the concept of life really be any different?

illinialex24 · Jan 10, 2009

cmpr94x said:
Would the concept of life really be any different?

No, and its pretty much the same as religion. We can't prove it so why fret over it. You can have personal beliefs but making decisions based over it would be stupid. Because we have no proof.

Overload · Jan 10, 2009

You suspect something, the programmers will erase you now. I've thought about this myself but there's no point really.

Darxmarth23 · Jan 10, 2009

This will be too hard to figure out. We could do this in a Socratic way though...

Its all about your viewpoints, and beliefs.

mc4 · Jan 12, 2009

sounds kinda like that matrix

SmashCentralOfficial · Feb 11, 2009

Ham Enterprises said:
I have been thinking alot about this lately, but what if our world, life, and existence is just a extremely advanced program created by a higher race. Because when you think about it, it is entirely possible that we don't even exist, we are just being watched upon and manipulated by something else. And if this were true, then what really is "life " in a sense?

Would it even matter?

illinialex24 said:
No, and its pretty much the same as religion. We can't prove it so why fret over it. You can have personal beliefs but making decisions based over it would be stupid. Because we have no proof.

Exactly. We can't prove OR disprove it.

Overload said:
You suspect something, the programmers will erase you now. I've thought about this myself but there's no point really.

Yeh really.

I honestly don't like threads like this, but I'm just setting a poor example by posting and bumping one of these.

Ham, just look at it this way. How would your life be different if you DID know that our lives are just a program created by a higher race?
Answer: It wouldn't. You could say "Oh well, it doesn't matter so I just won't obey the law, etc." That would mean you're under the impression that you have free will, which you don't. You're just data in a program.

LordoftheMorning · Feb 13, 2009

You guys are so apathetic about dis stuff >_>.

This is essentially a philosophy known as skepticism. It holds that we have NO IDEA if what we see and interact with is truly real. And you're all right. We can't really prove it either way. And yeah, the Matrix made it popular.

What IS interesting about it, however, is the paradoxes it introduces.

What would happen if this system was broken? Probability says that this higher race cannot survive for eternity. One of these days, something is going to throw a monkey wrench into our reality. But when would this happen? Perhaps our concept of time has been skewed? Why would a higher race do this in the first place? And then, what if an even higher race controlled them?

Ultimately, I would argue that episodic memory gives evidence to our existence.

Episodic memory is a type of memory in which we recall the actual experience along with the emotions attached. We are able to see back to the past, while knowing that we are not actually there. This is called autonoetic awareness, and it separates humans from animals. In order to have capacity for episodic memory, we must have: A sense of time, a sense of self, and autonoetic awareness.

Every other living thing on this planet has only semantic memories, or, world fact memories. They cannot remember the specific event.

From a Christian viewpoint, this world is real enough in its purpose, regardless of physical reality. If this really were a fake world, my choices, mind, and soul would be the only things that are relevant, and those are the things that God looks at in the first place.

Darkurai · Feb 16, 2009

A quote from an earlier post of mine:

Darkurai said:
I recall a line from The Matrix.

What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can hear, what you can smell, taste and feel then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

Click to expand...

It's hard to say whether we truly exist or not. In all seriousness, I sometimes have the belief that we are nothing more than a game of The Sims, so to speak.

The fundamental constants are exactly what they need to be for us to live. Like the force inside atomic nucleii for example. If it were just the slightest bit stronger, it would boost up the burning of stars so much, that they would explode only seconds after they were formed. If it was just the slightest bit weaker, it would be too weak to hold together elements like the heavy hydrogen isotope deuterium.

It seems to be just perfect. But that also seems highly improbable for such a thing to happen naturally. And it's more than just the example above. Too many things are like this for me to believe it's just coincidence.

In truth, we don't know what really "exists" and what "doesn't". We could just be a game of Sims, or a real-life Matrix.

So yeah. I do consider this from time to time.

As for what the "real" world is...well, I suppose it could end up being something our minds can't even comprehend.

zrky · Feb 16, 2009

This reminds me of some thoughts I had when i was younger. I used to for some time think of life itself, and that maybe we were actually living a very vivid dream, and that what we consider dreams was reality. Kinda hard to think about, but the OP basically states religion.

Lord Viper · Feb 16, 2009

☆ Life is a mystery, it's so many things we don't know. I guess some things are just best left a secret. But if we are getting controled by something unknown, we wouldn't know what we are getting controled by, maybe until we die. But over all, I don't think were just puppets, though this thread does sound like why did God make us. ☆

RDK · Feb 17, 2009

Viper JLT4GOV said:
☆ Life is a mystery, it's so many things we don't know. I guess some things are just best left a secret. But if we are getting controled by something unknown, we wouldn't know what we are getting controled by, maybe until we die. But over all, I don't think were just puppets, though this thread does sound like why did God make us. ☆

With this statement, you're assuming a god actually made us.

The concept of a deity is equally as ridiculous and unlikely as the concept of reality being an advanced dream-like program.

aeghrur · Feb 17, 2009

I completely agree with RDK and this quote from LotM

And then, what if an even higher race controlled them?

just rendered this question pointless as basically, this could go into infinity.

1 is controlled by 2 who is controlled by 3 who is a simulation controlled by 4 on and on.
Seriously... it's better to not question this as no one has an answer.

SkylerOcon · Feb 17, 2009

We have to go off of what we know. There's nothing to suggest we're not actually alive, so until something that suggests otherwise comes up, we're truly alive.

It's an interesting thing to consider though. Could it be that the 'people' who run the program that contain us are actually part of a higher program? And that the higher program is being run by an even higher one? It's interesting to think about, thought it would be laughable to see somebody actually believe it.

Pretty much, we're alive. Until I see some sort of weird glitch warp-hole open up before me that show a weird series of 1s and 0s in a black room, it's fairly safe too say that I'm real, and not a program.

AltF4 · Feb 17, 2009

The problem with a Matrix scenario is that there is a physical limit to computational power. Without delving into Computer Science theory, a computer that could be running our universe as a simulation would have to be massive in size.

There are approximately 10^50 atoms in the universe. Each one would have to have their information stored by this computer. (Ignoring for the time being, problems like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) Even if these aliens (or whoever is running "The Matrix") are able to perfectly utilize every atom in their computer, the computer would have to be greater than THE SIZE OF OUR UNIVERSE.

RDK · Feb 17, 2009

SkylerOcon said:
We have to go off of what we know. There's nothing to suggest we're not actually alive, so until something that suggests otherwise comes up, we're truly alive

While your basic premise is essentially correct, your reason for it being so is not good reasoning.

Edit: I had a big rant here, but I decided this discussion is potent enough to start a new thread on.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6673136#post6673136

BFDD · Feb 18, 2009

The problem with a Matrix scenario is that there is a physical limit to computational power. Without delving into Computer Science theory, a computer that could be running our universe as a simulation would have to be massive in size.

Except that we are talking about a race of super advanced aliens. They don't have to follow the laws of computer science as we understand them because they could have a better understanding of it. And considering we are talking about fictional characters anyway we could assume they built their own universe just for the sake of running the program. Even though if they can build a universe they could probably build organisms for that universe.

Or maybe we are just a giant experiment to test evolution.

Pr0phetic · Feb 18, 2009

Life? Simply for me it's the famous saying: I exist, therefore I am.

The concept of life is what an organism makes out of it, in this case the human race.

AltF4 · Feb 18, 2009

BFDD said:
Except that we are talking about a race of super advanced aliens. They don't have to follow the laws of computer science as we understand them because they could have a better understanding of it. And considering we are talking about fictional characters anyway we could assume they built their own universe just for the sake of running the program. Even though if they can build a universe they could probably build organisms for that universe.

Or maybe we are just a giant experiment to test evolution.

If you're going to go down the path of "what if they're using ideas we don't understand" than you can justify literally anything. Which means that nothing you can say is falsifiable. Which means nothing you say has any purpose.

Hive · Feb 18, 2009

AltF4 said:
The problem with a Matrix scenario is that there is a physical limit to computational power. Without delving into Computer Science theory, a computer that could be running our universe as a simulation would have to be massive in size.

There are approximately 10^50 atoms in the universe. Each one would have to have their information stored by this computer. (Ignoring for the time being, problems like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) Even if these aliens (or whoever is running "The Matrix") are able to perfectly utilize every atom in their computer, the computer would have to be greater than THE SIZE OF OUR UNIVERSE.

that's only if we try to use our own laws and our own definition of a computer though... both of which are based on our skewed perceptions of reality (assuming this is correct). if we made a computer program run and perceive the same things it would also come to the same conclusion, even though its obvious to and outside perspective that its still just a simulation.

i can see how a simulation theory is possible though-
assuming in the future we can create a simulation of our evolution on a computer, or if we can in the future create things in computers that have identities (which is the probable path of most advanced civilizations, imo), then it is not only possible but likely that we are in a simulation right now, especially if those in the simulation in turn have the capacity to make a simulation. think about it-> if we are randomly an identity in a world and 1/3 of those are in the "real world," and 1/3 are in the first simulation and 1/3 are in the simulation's simulation then it makes sense that we'd only have a 33% chance of being in the real world. (wikipedia nick bostrom's argument on simulation ^^)
I'm not saying we are in a simulation i just think its intriguing... especially given how some of the laws act in this reality.
i don't think we can say for certain though (we don't have any evidence against it), its just as valid as any other belief though...

BFDD · Feb 18, 2009

If you're going to go down the path of "what if they're using ideas we don't understand" than you can justify literally anything. Which means that nothing you can say is falsifiable. Which means nothing you say has any purpose.
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Yeah pretty much, but I am usually arguing against creationists so its a nice change of pace to have the omnipotent being/race on my side of the argument. I don't actually have to make sense I can just make it up as I go.

As a more serious argument I fall into the same thinking as many others in this group. We don't know and it won't change anything if we did so it doesn't matter.

Hive · Feb 18, 2009

i don't know, i think if we knew we were in a simulation it WOULD change things, personally. i mean how you take it is obviously subjective, but as with any sort of understanding it would probably change something, you know? even if its only your idea of reality...
in a worst case scenario someone will use it to change their ethic for the worse, since ethics are subjective and are determined personally, we can't say that it won't.
i guess what i'm saying is, it all just depends.

personally i wouldn't mind being in a simulation, its actually kind of a comforting thought to know that there are whole other worlds/possibilites out there, and that maybe, just maybe something greater then us out there cares about our ideas and lives.

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