Match Up Week #21 : Zero Suit Samus

Blad01 · Jan 10, 2009

Week #21 : Zero Suit Samus

Being the second biggest jump from the Tier List V1 to the V2 (16th), ZSS is a rising star we have to discuss. She is light. Ok. Her recovery is not that good. Ok. ut it's not that bad. What could more annoying for our favorite bird is that she ha an annoying gun, she can crawl under the lasers, she's difficult to chaingrab thanks to her DownB while she has a chain-stun on us thanks to her godly DSmash... Don't trust the appearences guys, she may be dangerous ! How could we fight her effectively ?
Discuss !

-

.CMW. · Jan 10, 2009

Blad01 said:
Being the biggest jump from the Tier List V1 to the V2 (16th), ZSS is a rising star we have to discuss.

No.

Zero Suit Samus raised 5 places. Olimar raised 7 places. 7>5

.CMW.

§witch · Jan 10, 2009

We can out camp her, watch out for the armour pieces at the start though. We have a reflector though so it's not that hard.

Iirc, she can down B out of the CG, Phootbag said that I think...

Orion* · Jan 10, 2009

§witch said:
We can out camp her, watch out for the armour pieces at the start though. We have a reflector though so it's not that hard.

Iirc, she can down B out of the CG, Phootbag said that I think...

im sure you can get like 4 grabs if you do it perfectly from 0%. i play Zamus allot irl

ill add more to my post later lol

Gishnak · Jan 10, 2009

This is probably one of ZSS's hardest matchups (I'm guessing anyway). Falco really has dominance when it comes to the pieces. He has a reflector and a decent running attack to pick them up. If falco has a piece, he can use laser->piece throw combo, or reflector for other pieces, and phantasm to keep his spacing alright. Falco is VERY dangerous with the pieces. Also fatty glide toss.

Falco's laser game shuts down alot of what ZSS has to offer. Also Falco's close range game>> ZSS. Zss's jab is the only real problem, but falco can shield the last hit, so ZSS has to get creative. Falco's tilts, jab, jab->grab, grab, all own ZSS close range.

The only thing falco needs to be careful of is landing on a zss forward b, or a tranquilizer when lasering. Just know Zss's kill moves, and stay away from the slow but devestating dsmash, and this is a winning battle.

BleachigoZX · Jan 10, 2009

Oh, god I wouldn't know I should have played Snakeee when i had the chance.

Only thing I can think of is to remember that a lot of her moves are shield safe.

Hyo · Jan 10, 2009

ZSS vs Falco - piece o cake?

Zero suit samus - I alt her, actually.

Well it's really interesting to play her, as it really depends on how creative she is using her pieces. A lot of ZSSes like to glide toss the piece and immediately shield after the toss so that a reflector character like Falco will not hit her. she can then re-pick up the piece and re-glide toss, hoping to throw him off.

imo, Falco's reflector really shuts down ZSSes pieces. Effectively, this shuts down her only chance at getting an easy first stock. If she does happen to get a stock, it's because she's really good, or you're really bad.

That's because:

she's got a pretty bad grab (unless you are stunned)
you've got a good one (even if you can't CG her well)
your killing moves (although weak) are better than hers
your jab (although slower) sets up for grabs. Hers doesn't.
You've got some really good stage advantages (FD, JJ, Frigate)

The list goes on. If Falco is considered to have poor kill potential, then ZSS has horrendous kill potential. Of course, make sure to avoid the dsmash to downb spike off stage, as a good ZSS could time it to intercept phantasm. That would just lead to a very epic - but low percentage- death.

In the air, the battle could go either way. ZSS has a nice uair, bair, and fair. Up b into combos could hurt too.

At the same time, our dair and bair are high priority heavy aerials. Still, she has better air control.

Her recovery, although appears to be gimpable, is better than once thought. Due to the versatility of her down b, she can add a third jump - or not. She has more vertical and horizontal range due to her floatiness, and can actually recover quite adequately. That said, it is a tether. You can gimp it the same way you gimp all tethers.

Side B.. is amazing at spacing, damage, and killing. Stay away from it. Your lasers are more than adequate with taking care of her anyways.

Have fun boys.

EDIT: 6/4- Falco

DeliciousCake · Jan 10, 2009

Hyo said:
imo, Falco's reflector really shuts down ZSSes pieces. Effectively, this shuts down her only chance at getting an easy first stock. If she does happen to get a stock, it's because she's really good, or you're really bad.

If Falco has anything that throws ZSS of her game, it's the reflector. Unlike Fox/Wolf's reflector, the fact that it flies forward reflects suit pieces and stun shots much sooner and reduces the amount of time the ZSS has to react to it.

Hyo said:
That's because:

she's got a pretty bad grab (unless you are stunned)

you've got a good one (even if you can't CG her well)

your killing moves (although weak) are better than hers

your jab (although slower) sets up for grabs. Hers doesn't.

You've got some really good stage advantages (FD, JJ, Frigate)

- First off, ZSS' has a horrible grab in every matchup, and most ZSS players will work around it (see: while stunned.)
- I play a fairly good Falco on occasions, and if you perfect CG there's nothing ZSS can do; but if your timing is off, Flip Jump will kill your CG immediately.
- We don't use our jab to set up for grabs. We use it defensively and in rare situations a combo opener. I'm not sure what this really has to do with the matchup at all.
- Again, stage advantage isn't exactly what you're looking for in a matchup discussion. We have our stage advantages over you too.

Hyo said:
The list goes on. If Falco is considered to have poor kill potential, then ZSS has horrendous kill potential. Of course, make sure to avoid the dsmash to downb spike off stage, as a good ZSS could time it to intercept phantasm. That would just lead to a very epic - but low percentage- death.

I beg to differ. You're also a fairly light character, and a U-air or stun -> B-air is a low percentage KO. Plasma Whip shouldn't be forgotten either. These are all fairly simple to set up for.

Hyo said:
At the same time, our dair and bair are high priority heavy aerials. Still, she has better air control.

Our Plasma Wire and U-smash will either clink or out-prioritize your D-air.

Hyo said:
Her recovery, although appears to be gimpable, is better than once thought. Due to the versatility of her down b, she can add a third jump - or not. She has more vertical and horizontal range due to her floatiness, and can actually recover quite adequately. That said, it is a tether. You can gimp it the same way you gimp all tethers.

Although a crude explanation, this is about how the recovery is.

Hyo said:
Side B.. is amazing at spacing, damage, and killing. Stay away from it. Your lasers are more than adequate with taking care of her anyways.

SH -> Plasma Whip is a simple way to screw with a laser spamming Falco. The hitbox at the end of Plasma Whip has a much larger vertical range than your laser, and stays in place longer. Don't forget power shield walking.

I agree though, probably 6/4 Falco.

Hyo · Jan 10, 2009

DeliciousCake said:
- We don't use our jab to set up for grabs. We use it defensively and in rare situations a combo opener. I'm not sure what this really has to do with the matchup at all.

the jab is a wonderful thing; I know because I use it. That said, Falco's jab is a lot better and has more utility. I find the jab that ZSS has little use in Falco's matchup as he can shield the third hit. He's fast, and can usually get out of the other combos the jab sets up into. Falco's jab sets up for grabs, which lead to sh> dair. This is a major damage dealer.

DeliciousCake said:
I beg to differ. You're also a fairly light character, and a U-air or stun -> B-air is a low percentage KO. Plasma Whip shouldn't be forgotten either. These are all fairly simple to set up for.

These are all linked combos though. B air is indeed a very good kill move, but hit for hit, there aren't too many moves ZSS can use to finish it early. Falco can just SHDL to boost smash for early kills.

DeliciousCake said:
Our Plasma Wire and U-smash will either clink or out-prioritize your D-air.

U-smash has no utility in the air, as a Falco would not dair onto a grounded zss because of that. if you plasma wire to hit us in the air, then yes, I suppose that would clink. However the gain in height ZSS gains with it, and the fact that it doesn't drag us down if the right hits are not met gives Falco chance to do another Dair, as there isn't much stun if the spike part doesn't connect.

DeliciousCake said:
SH -> Plasma Whip is a simple way to screw with a laser spamming Falco. The hitbox at the end of Plasma Whip has a much larger vertical range than your laser, and stays in place longer. Don't forget power shield walking.

A Falco can do retreating lasers, and phantasm to reset. A plasma whip "just to screw" would only be useful against a standing idle Falco, or one approaching from the ground without dash canceling at all. (Possible attempting to gatling combo)

Denzi · Jan 11, 2009

Just throwing this out there for CP's, but Japes is tough on ZSS because the multiple ledges really limit the Plasma whip, or so I've been told anyways.

M@v · Jan 11, 2009

Watch out for the dsmash chain. Also, ZSS has good range on her attacks; i recommend camping. She can sart combos from her stun gun, so be aware. Shes a tether recovery, but a really good one.

Also, the #1 reason why ZSS moved up so much: A certain person named Snaaakkkeeee.

ph00tbag · Jan 11, 2009

Dsmash chain shouldn't bother Falco too much. It only works up to something dumb like 40%, which can be achieved just as easily without it.

M@v · Jan 11, 2009

Can ZSS down b kick out of the CG every time?

(Dont have too much experience Falco vs ZSS)

Hyo · Jan 11, 2009

According to Deliciouscake perfectly timed CG cannot be b flipped.

Teran · Jan 11, 2009

Just camp. Falco's reflector shuts down her armour pieces, to the point of even netting you the free first stock.

She likes to space with Plasma Whip and fire paralyzer shots at you. Just fire your lasers and force her to approach. Watch out for her jab, and try not to mess around at close range, because that's where her dreaded dsmash comes from. She has more combo starters though, utilt can set you up, as well as dthrow.

Never phantasm recover onstage, or she'll catch you with dsmash and finish you off.
She escapes the CG at the 30% region with downB. Still, you can follow up with gatling combo or anything appropriate at earlier %s to leave your mark.

Outside of dsmash > fair/spike combos and utilt/dthrow > uair strings she has a really hard time killing. Her Plasma Whip will be her most stale move, so she won't be killing you with that for a long, long time.

Our suspect killing power is helped by her light frame, silent laser > boost smash is your best friend here. Bair can work well, but a good ZSS is nigh impossible to gimp, and they almost always make it back to the stage. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try though.

Oh and be careful when edgehogging her upB, if you aren't invincible when she tries it she'll drag you down into the murky depths with her.
60/40 - 65/35 Falco

Orion* · Jan 11, 2009

Falco can just SHDL to boost smash for early kills.

early is like 120%? (guesstimating)

im to lazy now to post matchups stuff v_v
most has been said. 6:4 sounds right to

although i would like to note that i agree with cake in that reflector ***** on zamus's game.

just camp and do usual falco stuff and you'll be fine. i actually like the matchup, zamus dies easier than most characters.

DeliciousCake · Jan 11, 2009

Hyo said:
the jab is a wonderful thing; I know because I use it. That said, Falco's jab is a lot better and has more utility. I find the jab that ZSS has little use in Falco's matchup as he can shield the third hit. He's fast, and can usually get out of the other combos the jab sets up into. Falco's jab sets up for grabs, which lead to sh> dair. This is a major damage dealer.

This still doesn't say anything about the matchup, all you're doing is comparing each character's jab.

Hyo said:
These are all linked combos though. B air is indeed a very good kill move, but hit for hit, there aren't too many moves ZSS can use to finish it early. Falco can just SHDL to boost smash for early kills.

This is also a linked combo.

Hyo said:
U-smash has no utility in the air, as a Falco would not dair onto a grounded zss because of that. if you plasma wire to hit us in the air, then yes, I suppose that would clink. However the gain in height ZSS gains with it, and the fact that it doesn't drag us down if the right hits are not met gives Falco chance to do another Dair, as there isn't much stun if the spike part doesn't connect.

Plasma Wire does not boost ZSS if you have tap jump off. Clinking an attack off of Plasma Wire actually sends ZSS' opponent upwards, so if you decide to d-air again, we have time to either shield or set up for something else depending on how far you go.

EDIT:

Teran17 said:
Oh and be careful when edgehogging her upB, if you aren't invincible when she tries it she'll drag you down into the murky depths with her.

Also just wanted to mention that pulling off a successful KO from a spike while falling below an edgeguarding opponent is rare.

Hyo · Jan 11, 2009

DeliciousCake said:
Also just wanted to mention that pulling off a successful KO from a spike while falling below an edgeguarding opponent is rare.

This is Falco we're talking about, it's quite likely he would die.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Jan 12, 2009

For general observation and question, would it be in Falco's general favor to get rid of the suit pieces when ever possible or use in battle?

I have not played enough decent ZSSs, but I have played some decent Link players and the uses they put there bombs through, which makes me wonder if ZSS has a bunch of tricks that she can use the suit pieces with that equal the style of link. Now of the ZSSs that I played that were good, the suit pieces lasted a long time into the battle sometimes, like 2-3 minutes (not sure if that seems a long time, but most of the time they are gone off stage in the first 20 seconds) when used correctly and contantly being taken control of.

Teran · Jan 12, 2009

Turn the suit pieces against her. It's not that hard to do, although it's entirely based on prediction. Falco's glide toss is beast, so give her plenty of that if you get the chance, she has no reflector, although her paralyzer shots can stop them iirc. Still that shouldn't be happening anyway.
I'm think 65/35 Falco now, because all her normally very effective tactics don't work. Her suit pieces are shut down. There's no point of her camping and spacing with plasma whip because we can just camp with lasers all day, forcing her to close quarters, where she isn't too great.

NJzFinest · Jan 14, 2009

Short hop+ airdodge through plasma whip = win, no joke.

It's like a free chaingrab or upsmash ftk.

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

NJzFinest said:
Short hop+ airdodge through plasma whip = win, no joke.

It's like a free chaingrab or upsmash ftk.

Really? If she short hops it then there's much less cooldown, still, you're the man right?

*Grumble grumble* it never worked for me. MOAR l4z0rz!

NJzFinest · Jan 14, 2009

LOLOL
Actually, I didn't know that haha. I was thinking of the situation where a ZSS would dash pivot into a forward B. I'll have to try that against an aerial one; I should be playing Snakee soon...

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

NJzFinest said:
LOLOL
Actually, I didn't know that haha. I was thinking of the situation where a ZSS would dash pivot into a forward B. I'll have to try that against an aerial one; I should be playing Snakee soon...

Lol a lot of the time when I face a really good ZSS I know, he spaces with a retreating short hop Plasma Whip, it's really annoying because the majority of the time the hitbox is in the air, and then when she lands it lingers for a split-second while and she runs away. She's BROKEN! Too bad we have lasers and a reflector.

Snakeee · Jan 14, 2009

This match up is bad for ZSS, and I don't even play it anymore unless maybe it's my counterpick, and I have a godly stage to choose. It's her worst match up.

Gishnak · Jan 14, 2009

65:35 or 7:3. Yeah, it's that bad.

GMo · Jan 15, 2009

whats the cp, snakee? secrets? walking cg or dash? also how many can we get in? best followups?

Snakeee · Jan 15, 2009

GMo said:
whats the cp, snakee? secrets? walking cg or dash? also how many can we get in? best followups?

Rainbow Cruise....now if you ban it on me I'm just going to use a good Sheik stage lol.
The CG only works for like two throws, then I can down B out of it. But doing two throws, then dash attack-upsmash always seems to catch her.

Btw, everyone's right about this match up, but for the completely wrong reasons. ZSS will not die that much earlier than Falco. It's a bad match up becuase he beats her at almost any range on the ground. The lasers force her to either be evasive, or crawl, and both of these put her at a disadvantage. Once she does get close, it's hard not to get grabbed, and his priority beats hers. Most of the time, it's hard to get close safely, because if I'm still crawling or airdodging, I'm in trouble.

superglucose · Jan 15, 2009

I think this is a horrible matchup for ZSS. Most of the ZSS players I play against see me pick falco and huck their armor off the side ASAP, either of our spikes are scary dangerous (tether recovery and all), and while she's fast, she's not all that powerful. We are pretty powerful.

Her 'laser' is a piece of crap compared to ours, and she doesn't have any of the tech we can do with our lasers. Yeah, she's better in the air, but only if we're up there with her. And considering ZSS has horrible knockback on most of her moves, the main time we'll both be in the air is if we're chasing her.

Play a patient camp game, and kick her *** if she comes too close. You have this one. 65-35 Falco.

Edit: For the record, it is a happy day for Falcos when those suit pieces stay in play. Don't let them go off the stage if you can avoid it! Turn those suckers against her with your reflector/awesome dash attack.

TheNix · Jan 16, 2009

Pretty much already summed up. My Falco does far better than all of my other characters against my friend's ZSS. It's a pretty harsh matchup.

baldurseeyou · Jan 16, 2009

It comes down to skill level. You might be better against your friends, but are you good against someone else, like a person that you never played against?

Teran · Jan 16, 2009

baldurseeyou said:
It comes down to skill level. You might be better against your friends, but are you good against someone else, like a person that you never played against?

You should take our word for it when we mention our friends. They're usually pretty good smashers themselves. And it's universally agreed that Falco really gives ZSS a hard time.

Hagar · Jan 16, 2009

Don't worry about getting grabbed, ZSS's is horrendous.

Just make sure not to completely expect the pieces to get thrown at you at the start of the match; if I was playing a falco I would throw the first piece up, grab another and glide toss it up but slide towards you, and then try to get in some dsmash.

Make sure not to forget about up b either, it has amazing upward range.

baldurseeyou · Jan 17, 2009

Teran17 said:
You should take our word for it when we mention our friends. They're usually pretty good smashers themselves. And it's universally agreed that Falco really gives ZSS a hard time.

I respect that.

Hyo · Jan 17, 2009

Anyone have confirmed info about the dsmash chain on Falco? That could make or break it, really.

Teran · Jan 17, 2009

Hyo said:
Anyone have confirmed info about the dsmash chain on Falco? That could make or break it, really.

It goes to between 50-60% with correct DI.
Without it goes to like 80% lol.
Don't get Dsmashed, you shouldn't be getting into positions where it can happen. If you do you're in for a world of hurt and it could lead to a Dsmash to DownB spike off the edge

Hyo · Jan 17, 2009

That's true, but a smart ZSS would try to avoid your camping to land a dmash. I can realistically see a ZSS get this off on a returning Falco (via phantasm), and you get auto spiked. Ouch.

Teran · Jan 17, 2009

Hyo said:
That's true, but a smart ZSS would try to avoid your camping to land a dmash. I can realistically see a ZSS get this off on a returning Falco (via phantasm), and you get auto spiked. Ouch.

Yeah, that's the most likely scenario for a dsmash to connect.

Blad01 · Jan 29, 2009

Hum... I see this match-up as 60-40, not 70-30... Basically, ZSS has an answer to everything, even if that answer is not always THAT good.

Laser Camping - > Crawling. ZSS's Dtilt is not that bad, it has more range that it seems. Falco still has the upper-hand, but if he makes the bad choice, he can get punished. (Moreover, ZSS's projectile goes through falco's lasers)
Reflector. Lol, Falco's reflector is pretty bad IMO. ZSS can hold an item, and still Side B, Down B, B, Up B... So if you happen to do the reflector, you'll get heavily punished :s
Phantasm - > ZSS's Down B.
Chaingrab -> Down B. And I add that ZSS has also a chain on us...

However, at close-range, falco still has better options than ZSS, but don't rush into her Down B... Her Utilt, Bair are also surprisingly good.
At mid-range, you're basically screwed : Side B :x
And at long-range, Falco has the advantage, but not a big one like against Ganondorf ^^

(EDIT : Oh and also, she can get the kill slightly more easily that us)

60-40 Falco imo.

Vlade · Jan 29, 2009

I'd have to say that's a good figure. I'm not very experienced against ZSS but I have suffered from the dsmash chain which can be frightening

Match Up Week #21 : Zero Suit Samus

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