How to Deal with Specific Moves #8 & #9: Metaknight's Shuttle Loop + Diddy's Bananas

Vlade · Jan 13, 2009

How to Deal With Specific Moves

Something I've decided to steal from the peach boards, although Blad01 had the idea in the Falco Back Room as well. In this thread we discuss ways to deal with certain moves that people seem to struggle with. I plan to be updating this once I feel the move has been discussed enough.

So falco boards, please make this work!

Currently Discussing:
-Metaknight's Shuttle Loop
-Diddy's Bananas

Summaries:

#1: Game and Watch's Bair (Pages 1-3)

SHL

Shield all hits except for the last one which you spotdodge. Follow up after this.

Shield the whole move, then follow up.

If you get hit, SDI up (then bair?)

Reflector

#2: Snake's Grenades (Pages 3-5)

If the snake is camping with them, SHDL or reflect them with the maximum range of the shine.

For shield-dropped grenades, IAP but make the initial jump a little higher so that you do not come into contact with the grounded grenades.

It is best not to pick them up, particularly if it's from the ground.

If a snake walks up to you and drops one, IAP or chase his roll.

Shield as a last resort. Never spotdodge or roll.

#3: Ness's PK Fire (Pages 6-8)

Powershield then punish

Walk out of range so the projectile does not make contact

Reflector

If you get caught in it, SDI up so that Ness cannot grab/follow-up.

#4: Sheik's Ftilt (Pages 8-9)

SDI towards the sheik. You'll have to eat about 3-4 hits and possibly a dsmash if you don't shield it.

Shield the first ftilt so you don't get caught in the lock

#5: ROB's Gyro + laser (Pages 10-11)

Reflect or dodge the laser

Be attentive, ROB's often like to fire their laser while recovering, or after throws and other moves like ftilt.

Reflect the Gyro.

If you manage to airdodge and catch the gyro (or other means of obtaining it) it's probably worth holding onto it for a while and just camping with lasers, phantasm and reflector. Aerials can be performed by z-dropping and then immediately inputting the aerial.

Glidetossing the Gyro when you're done helps for grab opportunities or other follow-ups.

#6: Metaknight's Tornado (Pages 11-13)

Laser beats it everytime.

Shine also beats it, and is easier to aim. Cooldown lag isn't appealing however.

Angle your shield up if you seen an incoming tornado. Punish the tornado's cooldown lag with IAP.

If you get caught in it, DI up and out of it, then punish with Dair.

Usmash will beat it from underneath, and is effective OoS.

Nair and bair will beat it from the sides. Dair from above.

#7: Toon Link's Zair

Powershield then punish (mainly with ftilt or usmash)

Reflector outranges it, but not advisable because it could be punished when not spaced properly

Shieldgrab if the zair isn't spaced well

Otherwise it's a very safe move

Blad01 · Jan 13, 2009

Ow ! My idea, that i stole aswell from another board

Lol.

G&W Bair :

Shield it. Shield all the hits, and be careful at the last one, that comes a little later than the others, and can poke your shield. Shield all the hits, then move your shield down for the last one. Then, punish with a Dash Attack (Drop Shield, Dash, C-Stick Down). That's how i deal with that, althought sometimes my DA can't punish the G&W. So if the opponent spaces it very well, and expect a Dash Attack from you, just dash grab him.
You can also replace the Dash Attack with a IAP. You just jump out of your shield (and you don't take the drop shield lag), and IAP. The problem is, you can only do that if you're far enough from the ledge.
Lasers and Reflector. Captain Obvious ! These two moves outprioritize G&W Bair, but are both punishable in a way : Lasers can be absorbed by the bucket, and the reflector is just... too laggy.

Vlade · Jan 13, 2009

I would've asked if you wanted to manage this thread, but I thought since you've got the match-up discussion I'd have this to myself

Credit goes to Blad01.

Blad01 · Jan 13, 2009

Vlade said:
I would've asked if you wanted to manage this thread, but I thought since you've got the match-up discussion I'd have this to myself

Credit goes to Blad01.

Lol I don't mind, don't worry XD

As I said, i myself stole this idea from another board ^^ (Peach probably)

[EDIT : And you're right, i wouldn't like having another thread to edit every week ;p]

Teran · Jan 13, 2009

Lasers. He can't bucket and turtle at the same time. Shield and general spacing works well too. There's no real hard counter to this move, just staying away and shielding the hits are your best bet, the whole cast has trouble with this irritating approach.

Uffe · Jan 13, 2009

What about Falco's Reflector?

Teran · Jan 13, 2009

Uffe said:
What about Falco's Reflector?

Too much cooldown lagz!!

PurpleAvenger · Jan 13, 2009

My friend plays G&W a lot and of course spams turtles. Besides the obvious:

1) You can upsmash through it and trade hits if he messes up his spacing a little. I've seen Bair trade hits too before. Both are good options for a suprise KO since G&W is so light.

2) Roll right before it comes out. Its a serious gamble but if you end up behind him after he turtles its pretty rough on him since he can't drop it till it lands. Good opportunity for a grab.

3) After shielding it you can walk up and ftilt sometimes. If he's in the right percents its even possible for a laserlock I believe(?).

Still generally just SHL him is the best option. Beware though, he might do a SH reversed bucket, you jump back, laser, and he gets a nearly unpunishable bucket fill. Nasty stuff.

GMo · Jan 13, 2009

A crewmate (le thien) said you can SDI through the turtle before it ends. That is, if you get hit with it. Not many G&Ws in my area, haven't tested it yet.

EDIT: Obviously, I'm not saying get hit by the turtle, but if you happen to eat one, SDI through it.

Tommy_G · Jan 13, 2009

You can SDI through it, but it's better to just not get hit at all.

Laser spamming GaW isn't as dangerous as Falcos make it seem. When he gets the full bucket, you're free to long range spam him. 3 laser bucket does 28% and I'm sure any falco can do at least 28% before being hit with it, especially since you can punish the first to laser catches with sliding up-smashes. It doesn't kill until 90-100% anyways. GaWs upsmash and sidesmash by the ledge kills at that percent.

Best option is either lasering if theyre trying to space(if you hit both lasers in the shdl, its a free sliding up-smash) or shield to dash attack or other OOS depending on where they land.

ftl · Jan 13, 2009

Just a note - you guys are totally awesome for starting this thread and contributing to it, this is *really* helpful.

GMo · Jan 13, 2009

Is it pertinent in this thread to discuss what other moves we should talk about? There are several I'd like to know more about.

Kais3000 · Jan 13, 2009

Tommy_G said:
3 laser bucket does 28% and I'm sure any falco can do at least 28% before being hit with it, especially since you can punish the first to laser catches with sliding up-smashes. It doesn't kill until 90-100% anyways. GaWs upsmash and sidesmash by the ledge kills at that percent.

Untrue, G&W's full Falco laser bucket kills at about 40-45%. I have a friend who plays Game and Watch and we tested it, with DI obviously, and it killed around then. Also it is one of the most powerful buckets behind Kirby's Final Cutter. But seriously if G&W gets his bucket you best be quick on the shield button.

But back to his bair. I just walk out of the range of it and punish with a SHL DAC.

Edit: Quick test showed that my percents were wrong, Falco's laser bucket kills at 60% and Kirbys final Cutter bucket kills at 35%!!!

Mith_ · Jan 13, 2009

IAP seems like the best choice, but after a while he will start to expect it.
Jumping out of shield is prolly going to be your best option. Nair, Dair.

If misspaced, shield-grab/Upsmash sounds nice.

ftl · Jan 13, 2009

Kais3000 said:
Also it is one of the most powerful buckets behind Kirby's Final Cutter.

According to this thread here (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168077), Falco lasers are among the weaker things for G&W to bucket. Don't know how accurate the percents listed are, but they give the right gist. Still kills pretty early...

Vlade · Jan 13, 2009

GMo said:
Is it pertinent in this thread to discuss what other moves we should talk about? There are several I'd like to know more about.

Feel free to request the next one.

The contributions so far are good guys. I'll keep this discussion going for maybe a little longer and then we can move onto the next move.

Denzi · Jan 13, 2009

Vlade said:
Feel free to request the next one.

It's about time we got one of these threads.

Request for MK's Dsmash?

gunterrsmash01 · Jan 13, 2009

I request Snakes f-tilt.

Also my advice on GW bair, shield the whole thing and dash Grab gw. because their first reaction after bairing will be shielding.

J4pu · Jan 13, 2009

SDI up and away if you get caught in it for GW's Bair.

§witch · Jan 13, 2009

ozz3000 said:
I request Snakes f-tilt.

Also my advice on GW bair, shield the whole thing and Grab gw. because their first reaction after bairing will be shielding.

I usually usmash OoS GnWs after bair.

XxBlackxX · Jan 13, 2009

i usually shield the whole thing, then either
1. iap
2. shl
3. sh aerial (only if he uses bad spacing)
4. dash grab/attack or even gatling combo

D1 · Jan 13, 2009

Good shizzle on this thread. I hate GW so much >_<. I wonder...if we do get hit by bair cant we just DI upwards and bair right through like Snake mains do? (Ally taught me this trick at Cataclysm 4.)

Mikey7 · Jan 13, 2009

Unfortunately, I don't think Falco's bair has that much priority...but, wouldn't hurt to try.

Against bair I shield everything til the last couple hits, then I spotdodge the last bit of it so that I don't get pushed back by the last couple hits and can punish it appropriately - most likely with an ftilt or jab or jab to grab.

Also if you don't have the timing down correctly, shield the whole thing, step back with a short jump then phantasm mid jump so that you lessen the height of the jump for a quicker punishment. This will put GaW onto the ground where you can then tech chase him.

Another simple method that makes punishment a whole lot easier is just shield it then walk forward and ftilt.

TechnoMonster · Jan 13, 2009

You should be able to DI up and D-air just fine.

MK's Downsmash: Shield the first one and then jump and D-air. This will beat everything but shield, dodges, and up-B, I think, maybe an exception on the d-smash.

Blad01 · Jan 14, 2009

Mikey7 said:
Against bair I shield everything til the last couple hits, then I spotdodge the last bit of it so that I don't get pushed back by the last couple hits and can punish it appropriately - most likely with an ftilt or jab or jab to grab.

Hum interesting... Spotdodging the last hit could indeed be better than shielding the whole thing....

superglucose · Jan 14, 2009

Blad01 said:
\
Shield it.

This. It's six (6) hits iirc, the last has decent knockback. Shielding is really, really good against GW in general, but I think the GW boards overstated the shield pressure of the turtle when it was first being tested. There's also a funky tech with a roll that's possible, I've done it a couple times but I can't really explain... I think it's because the last hit comes out so much later than the rest, it's possible to roll away if you time it perfectly. More testing needed, of course!

Lasers and Reflector. Captain Obvious ! These two moves outprioritize G&W Bair, but are both punishable in a way : Lasers can be absorbed by the bucket, and the reflector is just... too laggy.

Lasers and Reflector for sure. GW's approach is often telegraphed, and if you're on the ground SHl isn't at all a bad way to make sure GW doesn't pull the turtle out on you. If you do it at the right spacing, either GW bucket and you can phantasm for some % or he gets hit by the laser.

If he's really really close the reflector may be the only option, but it should usually push GW back far enough so that the lag isn't avoidable.

Also retreating or advancing a little bit before shielding is greatly suggested. If you walk forward like a step and then shield, GW is in "punish me now!" range after his attack is done. Really your job against this move is two-fold: 1) don't let him use it (lasers and reflectors) or 2) be right in that 2d *******'s face when he's done using it. GW is great but has plenty of lag if not autocanceled (and I'm not sure if the Bair can be autocanceled).

Vlade · Jan 14, 2009

The discussion is going well so far.

This is a summary of what you guys have discussed:

-SHL
-Reflector
-Shield the whole thing
-Shield all of it except the last hit, then spotdodge/roll
-If you do get caught in it, SDI up
-If you do get caught in it, DI up and bair?

Anything else before I update?

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

I request Snakes Ftilt. That move has more range than Captain Falcon's manhood.

NJzFinest · Jan 14, 2009

I think SHL and DIing up are the best ways to deal with it.

When lasering, only do 1 laser. This way you can use most of your short hop to travel away from the bair / help space yourself (aka, do what Sethlon does). After a laser cancel, I usually space a ftilt or dacus into the GW since there's little he can do to beat that.

Sometimes when I'm desperate for a kill. I try to "wait out" the bair, then jump in during the ending of the move and airdodge into an upsmash.

The problem with the reflector is that you can't move around as you do it and the lag it has doesn't allow any followups.

The problem with shielding is that you basically have to assume your shield is "at 100%" or else you will get shield poked over and over; Falco IS a decently tall character. And if GW actually spaces it, you can never grab him, that's what makes the move so good: shield pressure. I actually think it's the last thing you should do; I'd rather run up and roll to the other side of him (which actually might work a decent amount of times).

Also, I do agree that Snakes Ftilt is silly, but I think we should first cover moves in matchups where Falco is clearly lacking. Like, some Metaknight coverage would be nice ^_^

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

Falco isn't lacking in the Meta Knight matchup... but let's not go down that road ^_^

NJzFinest · Jan 14, 2009

Well, I know he holds his own much better then almost any character in the game.

Umm, yeah, let's not discuss the matchup here (looking at the matchup chart, you guys said it's even, I personally think it's his worst matchup xD 55 or 60 in his favor, hit me up on PM or the matchup thread), but um, nevertheless, he is a super common character.

OK then, a move from MK or Snake should definitely be ideal for the next choice considering how much they appear in the tournament scene.

Vlade · Jan 14, 2009

Hmm I'm thinking mortars or grenades for snake, Fair or Glide attack for metaknight (tornado has already been heavily discussed).

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

Mortars or mortar slide? Snakedashing is quite easy to deal with if he tries to do it through you. Shield or just throw out an attack, it has really low priority. Nades, if he chucks them, SHDL > Reflector, should hit him or the grenades, and any remaining get pushed back at him.
Falco's Bair clanks with Meta Knights glide attack, that's what I use, keeps a safe distance too. Or you could just shield (the answer to almost everything!)
Fair.... Dunno, I just stay away and laser to the point where he dashes in. A spaced fair can't be shieldgrabbed. I've done SHNair OoS a few times, but he'll catch on to that. MK's fair is just a really good move T_T.

NJzFinest · Jan 14, 2009

Hmm, grenades seems very very ideal.

I vote for nades.

Vlade · Jan 14, 2009

Mortars.

There are other uses for nades too, which also need to be covered.

I think I'll probably go for nades for the next session

NJzFinest · Jan 14, 2009

Yeah, I hate it when Snake players carry or drop nades.
I can't have any forward B funsies or sometimes even can't touch him

All I can think of is more camping.

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

When I use Snake, just leave some nades near them and when they come close, Ftilt! Maybe a sprinkling of jab here and there, with a dash of mortar sliding to create a wonderful melange explosive flavours, topped off with an Utilt dessert.

Vlade · Jan 14, 2009

Updated OP

We're currently discussing Snake's Grenades.

Go!

Teran · Jan 14, 2009

If there's a nade on the floor right next to me, I like to glide toss it if isn't near detonation time.
If he's holding one and walking up to me, I like to shoot him with lasers so stun him so he blows himself up, or he shields and drops it.
I like to catch aerial nades with SH Airdodge, although SHDL to immediate reflector is more sensible.
I can't think of more right now, I'd be better off commenting on my actions while I'm playing against a Snake :laugh:

TheNix · Jan 14, 2009

The grenades generally get stripped from me if I try to pick them up and use them, which is a bad scene. Running away and lasering feels like the best option to me. Just be careful not to shoot a grenade that is right in front of you.

IAP is risky when nades are about.

How to Deal with Specific Moves #8 & #9: Metaknight's Shuttle Loop + Diddy's Bananas

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