Captain Falcon's DI

FrozenFire13 · Jan 17, 2009

I'm sorry if this is already known or if nobody cares, but I've been playing around with CF for awhile, and I've noticed (or maybe imagined) that CF's air dodge + DI does not slow him down. He dies easier than other characters it seems like. Can anyone tell me if it's true or if I'm just imagining things?

Ayaz18 · Jan 18, 2009

no way man

Falcon can easily live to 150% with proper momentum canceling and DI

i'm not going to walk you through the process though

Newbreeze · Jan 18, 2009

yeah my falcon lives to very high percentages unless gimped, make sure your pointing slightly off the opposite direction your flying its won't be as effective if you point the exact opposite direction your flying.

carnivore · Jan 18, 2009

as i recall, i think Cpt is top 6-7 in vertical survivability and i have definitely felt that that is true. surviving snake u-tilts at 130%(after hit). horizontally doesn't seem below average, unless i mess up and DI downleft xD

FrozenFire13 · Jan 18, 2009

carnivore said:
as i recall, i think Cpt is top 6-7 in vertical survivability and i have definitely felt that that is true. surviving snake u-tilts at 130%(after hit). horizontally doesn't seem below average, unless i mess up and DI downleft xD

I guess I forgot to mention that I'm applying this mainly to horizontal flight. But I'm assuming it's the same, true?

Face124 · Jan 18, 2009

I've been thinking about the most effective way to survive an attack that hits you up, or to one of the top corners of the screen. I usually do U-air > FK, is it quicker just to do FK?

Zeallyx · Jan 18, 2009

Face124 said:
I've been thinking about the most effective way to survive an attack that hits you up, or to one of the top corners of the screen. I usually do U-air > FK, is it quicker just to do FK?

I just use Dair..

Ville · Jan 18, 2009

I think Bair cancels momentum best, but it's just a personal impression, not tested yet.

Face124 · Jan 18, 2009

I did some minor testing, and against a Ganondorf's U-smash, tapping D-air on the C-stick and holding down on the control stick was the best option against doing the same with other aerials, FK, U-air SJ FK and U-air SJ FF. My thoery is that it's not the D-air that cancels momentum but rather the DI that comes from C-stick down.

Jonas · Jan 18, 2009

FrozenFire13 said:
I'm sorry if this is already known or if nobody cares, but I've been playing around with CF for awhile, and I've noticed (or maybe imagined) that CF's air dodge + DI does not slow him down. He dies easier than other characters it seems like. Can anyone tell me if it's true or if I'm just imagining things?

Air dodge doesn't slow anybody down. Momentum cancel by fastfalling during an aerial attack.

Roager · Jan 18, 2009

Søndergaard said:
Air dodge doesn't slow anybody down. Momentum cancel by fastfalling during an aerial attack.

That's actually not true. Airdodge does slow everybody down a little. Granted, it's better to Momentum Cancel, for sure, but Airdodge does have a small effect.

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

90% sure bair or uair is best.

@Roager

Almost 100% sure that airdodge does CRAP. The only reason you why you think it does something is because during the airdodge, you are already naturally slowing down. But if you didn't airdodge, you would get that same affect. It doesn't do anything.

How come no ones responded this correctly?

@Sondergaard
Fastfalling is only for Vertical knockback, if you fastfall for horizantal knockback you are not helping yourself, and you're only going to get yourself gimped if you fastfall. You won't be able to recover.

@face
Go to tactical, find the thread that proves aerials help DI. Also, you were DI'ing incorrectly. When hit STRAIGHT up, you do not hold DOWN. That is OPPOSITE. You hold PERPENDICULAR. Meaning you hold LEFT OR RIGHT.

@Ville
Bair and uair are about tied I think, I THINK. Personally, I think uair ends quicker, I haven't bothered to see frame data.

@TKONTK (you know who you are, rofl)
Dair is only best when you want to fastfall, unless you're doing it by hand carefully, and even then I'm almost certain bair or uair is the better choice. Try using uair/bair (remember to fastfall for vertical knockback though!) and tell me if you live any longer then usual.

Basically:

Aim for the corner blast zones (adjust according to situation however, its not always the best DI, but it makes you live the longest because its the furthest blast zone in MOST cases)

Use your quickest starting or ending aerial. It's best to look for the quickest starting AND ending aerial however.

If extremely high up, after aerial, Falcon Kick adjusts momentum slightly, but you can die before it actually takes affect.... so I suggest not doing this.

Fastfall for vertical knockback, not horizantal knockback.

tl;dr

This shows Link, but you can apply it ALL to any character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo

Face124 · Jan 18, 2009

Havokk said:
@face
Go to tactical, find the thread that proves aerials help DI. Also, you were DI'ing incorrectly. When hit STRAIGHT up, you do not hold DOWN. That is OPPOSITE. You hold PERPENDICULAR. Meaning you hold LEFT OR RIGHT.

I tested without any DI left or right, just the attacks.

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

Face124 said:
I tested without any DI left or right, just the attacks.

I'm about to facepalm.

Theres your second problem.

The aerials help you regain control of your momentum quicker, what this means is by using an aerial in conjunction with DI, after the aerial, your DI gets better.

Can seriously no one on the Falcon boards properly DI, except maybe 1-3 people?

Face124 · Jan 18, 2009

Havokk said:
I'm about to facepalm.

Theres your second problem.

The aerials help you regain control of your momentum quicker, what this means is by using an aerial in conjunction with DI, after the aerial, your DI gets better.

Can seriously no one on the Falcon boards properly DI, except maybe 1-3 people?

So wouldn't using D-air and DI'ing left or right with the control stick be the best option?

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

Face124 said:
So wouldn't using D-air and DI'ing left or right with the control stick be the best option?

DI'ing left or right, and uair/bair, and since its vertical knockback fastfall ASAP.

I need to see some frame data <_> I don't want to be preaching uair/bair if dair is in fact quicker.....

I'll edit this if you guys have frame data, hold on.

Forward Air: 14
Back Air: 10
Down Air: 16
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 7

If I'm reading that correctly, up air is the best aerial to use. Although I don't think its a 6 frame move <_> (are you guys counting your frames right? lol)

I need to go get actual frame data to test... but if I'm reading it correctly.

Up Air > Neutral Air > Back Dair > Forward Air > Down Air

You're doing it wrong if you're using down air, thats your WORST POSSIBLE MOVE to use. Except maybe the "built in fastfall" For the c-stick, which you don't need to use, just manually fast fall.

Face124 · Jan 18, 2009

Havokk said:
DI'ing left or right, and uair/bair, and since its vertical knockback fastfall ASAP.

I need to see some frame data <_> I don't want to be preaching uair/bair if dair is in fact quicker.....

I'll edit this if you guys have frame data, hold on.

U-airs the fastest aerial I think, there was a thread with frame data a while back. U-air is frame 6 according to it, and B-air is 10. N-air is close with 7. D-air is 16, but I thought the downwards DI produced by it combined with the left/right DI might make it the most effective. Please don't flame if I am wrong. I'm not saying this is definitely true.

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

It's completely wrong, as you can manually fastfall, and c-sticking the down air when you can't fastfall does nothing. Therefore both manually fastfalling and using the built in fastfalling has the same results.

Manually Fastfalling while using Uair will ALWAYS be better then using Dair with auto-fastfall.

I found the frame data, it seems innaccurate to me and I'll be testing the moves, roll frames, sidestep frames, airdodge frames, shielding frames, etc. Actual in-depth and useful information.

ps:

Just so you Falcon's will take my word, if my logics not making sense, or just want a proof that "Havokk's at least decent, if not good, we can trust him" I'll get some vids of my Falcon going against Falco's, Meta Knights, and other high tiers later today.

Keep in mind my opponent will be my friend Raimundo. He's my level of play, and all our matches go pretty ****ed even when I'm Snake. So the whole "if opponents are of the same level" thing applies to us. Just take my word for this.

Ville · Jan 18, 2009

Havokk said:
Forward Air: 14
Back Air: 10
Down Air: 16
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 7

If I'm reading that correctly, up air is the best aerial to use. Although I don't think its a 6 frame move <_> (are you guys counting your frames right? lol)

I think these are the startup frames and not the actual frames of duration.

Face124 · Jan 18, 2009

Ah, I'm sorry for my ignorance on the matter sir, I thought that the c-stick down was DI, and that coupled with DI left/right it would be the best option. Please to get the frame data, I for o e would greatly appreciate it. I don't think anyone else ok the boards has the equipement to do so themselves.

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

Ville said:
I think these are the startup frames and not the actual frames of duration.

You're looking for the fastest starting one as well, so uair is already up there on that list. Same with nair, but nair is 0 DI, therefore bad in most cases.

Face124 said:
Ah, I'm sorry for my ignorance on the matter sir, I thought that the c-stick down was DI, and that coupled with DI left/right it would be the best option. Please to get the frame data, I for o e would greatly appreciate it. I don't think anyone else ok the boards has the equipement to do so themselves.

I'll hop to it. :psycho:

I won't try what I did with the Snake boards, but I'll get the following:

1. Frame it starts (frame I can see the animation begin)
2. Hitbox Comes out On (The first frame that has a hitbox, I'll just use the move against a big character like ROB)
3. Frame it Ends (Frame it would end normally)
4. IASA frames? (If it has any IASA frames, aka: Will holding shield end the animation quicker then just letting it end?)

I'll get the following moves:

Jab
All Tilts (even the angled ones, if any)
All Smashes (Even the angled one)
All Aerials
Spotdodge
Roll
Shield Raise, Shield Drop
Airdodge
All Specials (Including the ledge-canceled Falcon Kick

because that cuts off end lag.

Bonus Video at end:

How to FoG with Falcon. XD and how its completely useless

Wogrim · Jan 18, 2009

I don't really go to the tactical forum and stuff but I think C-Sticking supposedly gives u 1 extra frame of DI so you're supposed to mash it quickly for best effect.

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

That's called Smash DI, it's more then 1 frame (thats also a measure of timing <_>) and it helps DI out of multi hit moves.

(Eg; That one item with the big boosh that 'traps' you, Pikachu's dsmash. You can smash DI out of those

)

Wogrim · Jan 18, 2009

Havokk said:
That's called Smash DI, it's more then 1 frame (thats also a measure of timing <_>) and it helps DI out of multi hit moves.

(Eg; That one item with the big boosh that 'traps' you, Pikachu's dsmash. You can smash DI out of those )

I'm pretty sure Smash DI is what you do as you get hit.

Mit · Jan 18, 2009

I use fair to cancel momentum >_> Seems to cancel the most momentum and comes out faster than dair. Do uair or bair cancel that much momentum? I always assumed they wouldn't help much.

SuSa · Jan 18, 2009

Mit said:
I use fair to cancel momentum >_> Seems to cancel the most momentum and comes out faster than dair. Do uair or bair cancel that much momentum? I always assumed they wouldn't help much.

Until I finish my frame data and prove otherwise, use uair. Uair is the best.

tl;dr

Read every post I've made in this thread.

Fair is really slow and lasts a while, bad DI.

_Tiamat_ · Jan 20, 2009

I had a good discussion about the way people use the term DI with Havokk following an argument with a few 'smash researchers' here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217065

Following this, a poll was created in hope to settle things down and clarify what people really think: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217159

I suggest everyone here share their thoughts about how the term should be used, (at least do it as a thanks for the sexy frame data topic? =D)

Hylian · Jan 22, 2009

Q&A thread please.

Captain Falcon's DI

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