Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #26 - Ike

VietGeek · Jan 18, 2009

Ike

Ratio: 60:40 Toon Link

Synopsis:
Coming like...when you believe.

Onward!

Sosuke · Jan 18, 2009

For starters, Zair his aether recovery.
Many, many times.

Spam your *** off.
Stay away from the edge whenever you can.
Expect jabs cancels. Usually into grabs. So air dodge -> Zair.
Expect Fairs so you can shield/ punish.
His Bair kills well.
Avoid getting hit by stupid laggy attacks.
Ike's Nair is good, don't expect it to be as easy to punish as his Fair.
His Nair also leads to either a grab, or jabs. So watch out for that.

And just don't get mind gamed. =P

Nidtendofreak · Jan 18, 2009

Well, first of all, don't fight Jerm as Ike if it's your first time at a tournament. It hurts. Except for when I got the Fsmash KO.....

Anyhow, here is what we have from this discussion when it occurred on the Ike boards.

At first glance, Toon Link might appear to be no more than a simple clone of Link. After all, don't they both have similar attacks, hookshots and green tights? It'll take a bit more than green tights to make them clones, as is apparent soon after trying both out extensively.

Toon Link's projectiles can be likened to Link's. He has a bow, bombs and a boomerang. The bow will not be used often, as it is a projectile that requires commitment and is slow. It also isn't much for damage. He may use two after a short hop to try and get some stun in. The weird angle of it allows him to shoot it off as he's recovering as well. His boomerang is a mainstay of his arsenal, it is fast, powerful and it hits when coming backwards. The backwards hit will often prevent you from grabbing him or doing a slower approach, so be wary of that. Bombs are his final projectile and good ones at that. They will be used from up high to pepper you with explosions. The explosive radius is larger than Link's, so don't underestimate it. If Toon Link is holding a bomb and does his Up B and it explodes, he regains his Up B. Watch for this and spike him if he tries it. These projectiles will all be used in tandem to try and keep you away from the heart of them, Toon Link himself. Your general way to get past this should be either a well placed dash attack, or perhaps a well placed Fair. Don't do a shoddy job of piercing through that projectile wall, elsewise you'll take so much damage and will simply have to start over from square one.

Toon Link also has a Zair, similar to Link's. It sort of lost both power AND range when compared to Link, sadly. It's tiny in size and only does 4%. The point isn't to build damage, however. It can be auto canceled and followed up by any of TL's other options. He might try a Zair to Nair, Zair to a ground based option, Zair to anything works. The tether portion of it is quite good, saving him from having to use the Up B at times. The tether is also a grab (naturally), but it's not much of a grab game. Each of Toon Link's throws do 7%, the grab is short compared to Link and it has all the flaws that Link's does. He might punish a laggy attack that his the shield with a grab and a throw, then try to string it, but it otherwise isn't much of a threat at all.

Toon Link has one more thing with which he can try to claim dominion upon Ike – His air game. All of his moves in the air are not only fast, but they also have power and good range because Toon Link uses only his sword for attacking, unlike Link with his fancy pants kicks. His Nair and Bair will generally be overused and stale, making them ripe choices for linking into other moves. The Bair in particular is very nasty, as a few can chain together to deal nice damage. If Toon Link is approaching with his back, you know what's coming. His other moves in the air CAN be used liberally, but they will probably be saved for other purposes. The Dair in particular is a very risky move. It sends him straight down, he can't budge from his course. However, the start is a spike and if he hits anything, there is no “stuck in the ground” bit. It may be used as he is above you, but it is generally too dangerous to do so. It has a very solid use against Ike, however. If the Toon Link times your Aether or Quick Draw recovery properly, he can Dair spike you straight out of it. This shouldn't be happening a whole deal, but look for him being near the edge and stall out your midair jump so he can't predict your actions.

Toon Link's ground game is pretty decent, though it all pales in comparison to Ike's (Most ground games do). His jab is a “get out of here” option, and will be used as such. His tilts are generally for combos, but they can also be used for killing later on at very high percents. The Smashes in particular are pretty much used for fast kills. His Up Smash is the versatile move, it kills fast and can link into other things if need be, shield if he's running at you. The Forward Smash is two hits in one, but the first actually goes into the second, unlike regular Link's. Toon Link can alter the timing so it hits you as you drop your shield, so try to outmaneuver him there. The Down Smash kills pretty late, but if you DI it wrong it can very well kill you soon due to gimping as it sends you right into Ike's dead zone ( deep 60 degrees down from the edge of the stage. His Fair can kills you, as can the Up Air. Don't be directly above TL in fear of that Up Air.

Ike should be focusing on two things, and two things only. 1) Get past the projectiles. 2) Always keep your spacing 3) Going for that coveted early kill. Ike has a massive range and power advantage over Toon Link, but Toon Link has him beaten in other general areas. Range and Power are no joke, however. You simply have to cautiously zone him until and opportunity presents itself to go in and deal massive damage. If you see him recovering with the Up B, go ahead and attempt a spike. It's moderately vulnerable to that. You might also try to be fancy and counter it, but do that at your own risk.

To help with your massive damage goals, it is recommended that you visit Battlefield as a neutral. This stage forces close quarters combat, which Ike excels at. It also allows platforms to punish TL from and is generally just a great Ike map. Corneria is a great CP choice, as always. Infinite, low blast zones, it has it all. Other good stages are your standard Ike ones, really. Green Greens is good since it gives you a wall to protect you and makeshift projectiles as well, you know the drill

Similar to the Link match in essence. Get past the (better) projectile spam, fight a (better aerial but worse ground) close combat game than Link and watch out for the dinky Zair. It's a fun match that depends more on position that anything else.

How accurate does that still sound?

EDIT: It should also be noted that Ike and Toon Link have the same horizontal aerial speed. At least, from what I remember about that list a while back.

EDIT2: I also know the bow part is wrong. Light hasn't had a chance to fix it yet.

Ussi · Jan 18, 2009

on paper its 60-40 to 65-35 TL but its no as bad as it seems during battle.

I just hate AD to zair... that is all I hate about TL.

I played lots of friendlies with my good bud Hyrulian_Royalty.. and that's all I got from brawling him. Projectile spam does get "annoying" but its doable to get through. Ike lives to around 150% if you don't hit with fsmash/usmash.. TL's Uair is a *****... bair *****... gotta SDI out of it RIGHT away otherwise Ike will eat around 40%. H_R didn't gimp me too much, more so I would just take lots of damage recovering though.

Ike still has range and power advantage... (Like that isn't new to me...)

Smith · Jan 18, 2009

Dsmash. Tether Recover.

Ike's dead.

old video, I don't play like this anymore xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6y_Wo9KA8w

ew at my Projectile game back then o_o;;

Nidtendofreak · Jan 18, 2009

Smith said:
Dsmash. Tether Recover.

Ike's dead.

old video, I don't play like this anymore xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6y_Wo9KA8w

ew at my Projectile game back then o_o;;

Ew at the Ike. :laugh:

Silly little kids online eh?

Smith · Jan 18, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Ew at the Ike. Silly little kids online eh?

It's what happens when you go in basic brawl at 3am xD

YagamiLight · Jan 18, 2009

sasukebowser said:
For starters, Zair his aether recovery.
Many, many times.

Spam your *** off.
Stay away from the edge whenever you can.
Expect jabs cancels. Usually into grabs. So air dodge -> Zair.
Expect Fairs so you can shield/ punish.
His Bair kills well.
Avoid getting hit by stupid laggy attacks.
Ike's Nair is good, don't expect it to be as easy to punish as his Fair.
His Nair also leads to either a grab, or jabs. So watch out for that.

And just don't get mind gamed. =P

Just a few things to correct here.

Zair won't work if Ike recovers low.

If Ike does jab1 to jab 1, your best hope is to SDI that. If he does jab2 to any cancel, you need to be mashing jump to get out of it, since if you do anything else the jab cancel works as a combo.

I do not believe that Toon Link can punish Ike's shielded spaced Fair, but don't worry, only two characters can. Using IASA frames, Ike's Fair landing lag ends at 22, so he can effectively become invincible at frame 23 (Spotdodge or shield). Toon Link's OoS options (Such as grab, Up Smash and Up B) do not reach Ike. That means that you have to drop the shield and suffer that lag time of seven frames. After which you begin to do an attack on frame 8 and you only have one quarter of a second to: React, input and actually have the move hit.

Ike's "stupid laggy attack" (By which I mean Fsmash, really) outspaces Toon Link's get up attacks, all of them. It also has better range than all of his aerials I believe. Just be careful, it has 28 frames of charge animation but it releases on frame 3 (!!!) after the button is let go of.

Nair is easier to punish than Fair, because although that only has 14 frames of landing lag, it's much closer to Toon Link. I'm not sure if TL's grab is fast enough, however.

As to the section in the guide about the Bow not being used, it's wrong. I changed it but then the guide got deleted and I put in a back-up where it was still wrong, blah blah johns etc.

Kirk (The best Ike) says the match is 45:55 (i.e. a bit in Toon Link's favor). I'm partial to agree with him. It seems easy enough to just spam Ike away, but that hasn't really worked past April. Sure, you can do it, it'll help, but don't count on it winning the match.

Bomber7 · Jan 18, 2009

well judging form that video, I think we found a counterpick stage. =D

Smith · Jan 18, 2009

Bomber7 said:
well judging form that video, I think we found a counterpick stage. =D

But aren't we discussing Luigi still though?

NearZzz · Jan 18, 2009

YagamiLight said:
Just a few things to correct here.

Zair won't work if Ike recovers low.

If an Ike trys to recover too low, he'll most likely be Tether hogged (pretty sure thats the wrong name, but im unsure of the right one, when you let the ledge go, and tap z twice for incinvibilty) by a good Toon link.

Like usual, Projectiles are your friend.0.
Spacing is key here, you want to stay out of Ike's range as much as possible, and he has ALOT of range.
Don't carelessly mis space zair then follow up with a nair or something, if your playing a decent Ike, it will be shielded, you will be punished.
I arrow cancel after nearly any arieal here, rather than fast fall, I just keep as many projectiles on him as possible.

Challengings Ike sword is a dangerous game that shouldn't be played. Everyone is aware of his godly jab, no explanation needed there. Beware of jab cancels, they will come often.

If power shielded, I'm fairly sure you can run and punish a fair with nair, anything else would be too risky, playing it safe is another key element here.
Nair either auto cancels or has little landing lag, it combos into jabs, don't get hit.
bair kills well, be aware of Ike's movements at all times.

Camping is just really your safest option here. Like anyone else Ike can shield projectiles, but its near impossible to not get at least one or two in.

Gimping Ike when recovers high is pretty easy. Nair or Zair like Sasuke said. Thats all you really have to do. If he recovers low, already covered that at the top. If he recovers with Side B, don't try to nair. Zair carefully, or stop it with a projectile.

Camp, space, gimp.
Ike kills Toon link FAR earlier than vice versa, partly why spacing is so important.
Gimp or go for the Usmash kill around 140% , 150% if you wanna take less risk.
Usmash should aways be fresh. If you fail to kill once, get out of his range, build up abit more damage and go for it again, If hes being an asboloute pain to kill, you may end up doing the job with a lesser attack.
60:40 Toon Link imo.

Bomber7 · Jan 18, 2009

Smith said:
But aren't we discussing Luigi still though?

......what?

Luigi? where did he come from? Ike isnt cool enough for green.

Jman115 · Jan 19, 2009

YagamiLight said:
Just a few things to correct here.

Zair won't work if Ike recovers low.

If Ike does jab1 to jab 1, your best hope is to SDI that. If he does jab2 to any cancel, you need to be mashing jump to get out of it, since if you do anything else the jab cancel works as a combo.

I do not believe that Toon Link can punish Ike's shielded spaced Fair, but don't worry, only two characters can. Using IASA frames, Ike's Fair landing lag ends at 22, so he can effectively become invincible at frame 23 (Spotdodge or shield). Toon Link's OoS options (Such as grab, Up Smash and Up B) do not reach Ike. That means that you have to drop the shield and suffer that lag time of seven frames. After which you begin to do an attack on frame 8 and you only have one quarter of a second to: React, input and actually have the move hit.

Ike's "stupid laggy attack" (By which I mean Fsmash, really) outspaces Toon Link's get up attacks, all of them. It also has better range than all of his aerials I believe. Just be careful, it has 28 frames of charge animation but it releases on frame 3 (!!!) after the button is let go of.

Nair is easier to punish than Fair, because although that only has 14 frames of landing lag, it's much closer to Toon Link. I'm not sure if TL's grab is fast enough, however.

As to the section in the guide about the Bow not being used, it's wrong. I changed it but then the guide got deleted and I put in a back-up where it was still wrong, blah blah johns etc.

Kirk (The best Ike) says the match is 45:55 (i.e. a bit in Toon Link's favor). I'm partial to agree with him. It seems easy enough to just spam Ike away, but that hasn't really worked past April. Sure, you can do it, it'll help, but don't count on it winning the match.

You forgot TL's best OOS options. Jump to nair, zair or bair. TL jumps laglessly OOS.

iRjOn · Jan 19, 2009

Jman115 said:
You forgot TL's best OOS options. Jump to nair, zair or bair. TL jumps laglessly OOS.

We still cant reach him after a well spaced fair
T-T

copacetic · Jan 20, 2009

The Ike I play against likes to charge his smashes a lot (which usually doesn't work, but he's good at mindgames). On FD I get killed at about 30% from a forward smash, so you have to be really careful about those.

Ike's Forward-b recovery can be gimped by simply timing an air-dodge right.

If Ike up-b's and doesnt land the sword exactly at the edge, you can jump over the sword, hookshot under him as he goes up to grab it, and get onto the ledge with invincibility as he comes down.

Ike's up-b is extremely easy to spike. Do it early, so if you miss, you still just bounce off of him in his superarmor frames and deal decent damage.

If you insist on using d-air, definitely throw a bomb down first and try to time it so it lands as you do. The bomb will get rid of your lag, and a few more percent doesn't matter much against Ike since he can basically kill you from the start. If you miss a d-air without a bomb against a good Ike, you're pretty much dead.

1000 year counter lasts for one thousand years.

If you miss a boomerang and he's jabbing you, it usually just allows Ike to restart his jab combo, so it's not very useful.

Basically don't ever make a mistake. You will die.

Ussi · Jan 21, 2009

Ike is known for punishing stupid mistakes very harshly...

Zorro.cL · Jan 21, 2009

Ike's aproaches are just obvious, and you can prevent them without troubles. 6/4 or 7/3 TL's favour I say...

vbdood1337 · Jan 22, 2009

I've played Light's Ike ALOT, though probably not in the last month or so (hell, probably 2). Try to stay off the ledge. It won't be long before you fall into a FSmash, dtilt (spikeeeeee), or super-armored eruption. Nair is a nasty move, and combos into grabs a jabs (or both). Be careful around platforms, watching for his USmash. In my experience, SHDA works pretty well for keeping him away, just throw a up-angled boomerang to stop any aerial approaches. JC bomb throws and ziar -> nair work well, and tether hogging his aether is pretty easy in certain situations. dthrow -> utilt -> utilt works at low percents. Harass him with projectiles while he's off stage and arrow cancel EVERYTHING.

copacetic · Jan 23, 2009

D-throw->utilt doesn't work against an Ike that can see it coming. His b-air comes out faster that Tink's utilt

TLMarth · Jan 23, 2009

Don't approach.
When he's close, don't do anything that's too laggy.

VietGeek · Jan 23, 2009

So about counterpicks.

I can totally see Rainbow Cruise being one, but how about another more conventional stage?

YagamiLight · Jan 23, 2009

vbdood1337 said:
I've played Light's Ike ALOT, though probably not in the last month or so (hell, probably 2). Try to stay off the ledge. It won't be long before you fall into a FSmash, dtilt (spikeeeeee), or super-armored eruption. Nair is a nasty move, and combos into grabs a jabs (or both). Be careful around platforms, watching for his USmash. In my experience, SHDA works pretty well for keeping him away, just throw a up-angled boomerang to stop any aerial approaches. JC bomb throws and ziar -> nair work well, and tether hogging his aether is pretty easy in certain situations. dthrow -> utilt -> utilt works at low percents. Harass him with projectiles while he's off stage and arrow cancel EVERYTHING.

Hah, yeah. We haven't played in ages.

Anyways I'm not exactly sure if Dthrow to Up Tilt will work, but I don't recommend trying to grab Ike anyways. Just too high of a chance of getting punished badly.

VietGeek said:
So about counterpicks.

I can totally see Rainbow Cruise being one, but how about another more conventional stage?

Thing about Ike is that generally his "bad" stages are liked by some people and you can't totally CP him. If I were Toon Link, I'd personally choose Jungle Japes against Ike, that'll just be you spamming him.

Failing that, if you're any good at Norfair, you should also try doing that.

Ike loves small stages, so try to go as big as possible.

Nidtendofreak · Jan 23, 2009

Didn't you guys do Ike already in the Counter Picking topic?

Anyways:

Rainbow Cruise isn't nessicarly(sp?) bad for Ike. Nair and Uair both last longer then air dodges, he out ranges Toon Link in the air, and they have the same air movement speed. Some Ikes (I think Kirk is one, I get them mixed up after a while), actually use RC as a CP occasionally. Of course, I don't know what Toon Link's strengths are here at this stage, so w/e.

For the Neutrals: FD would be your best bet obviously.

For CPs: Jungle Japes. It sucks. We hate it. We strike it. >_> After that it's more player dependent. I'd guess go for frigate if you aren't afraid of Ike bthrowing you off the ledgeless side for a free fsmash.

EDIT: Light, Norfair is a good stage for Ike. Lava = we get gimped less. Platforms = Uair fun + easier time recovering. >_>

Steel · Jan 23, 2009

personally i feel aggroing ike is very effective from my experience with tink, he's fast enough that Ike doesn't have many options to deal with it. but i'm going to stay away from match up discussions for now until ive played tink in tourneys... so i won't go in depth.

YagamiLight · Jan 23, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
EDIT: Light, Norfair is a good stage for Ike. Lava = we get gimped less. Platforms = Uair fun + easier time recovering. >_>

Have you played a Link or TL on Norfair?

That is NOT fun.

Ashraf23 · Jan 24, 2009

OK you should definantly Zair and bomb his recovery. Ikes Fair alot so you can sheild and wait to see what is available for you to use:

1. Sheld grab- I find this the most helpful because grabs can lead up to some nice combos and it is pretty safe when he lands.
2. Nair- Really quick move that not a lot of people see coming at them.
3. Use a projectile- If your feeling a bit campy or conservative
4. Bair (if your facing the other way)- Possibly get off a Bair chain.
5. Dsmash- has pretty good range and it could knock him back far enough for you to get back to camping him lol.

Now you have to camp his range out with Zair. When Ike gets close he can punish you with the jabs so Zair is always there for Tls to use on ike. Another thing is that Tl can gimp Ike pretty easily as can a lot of other characters.

So Idont feel like typing anymore so ill get to the overall....

Overall- 6:4 in Toon's favor

N-stage to pick on Ike- FD
CP- RC and Norfair

Ussi · Jan 24, 2009

Nidtendo i use RC as a CP, Kirk wishes he did

ComboTurtle · Jan 26, 2009

does toon link have any good moves?

Jman115 · Jan 26, 2009

Upsmash, nair, zair, bair, uptilt, ftilf, 3 projectiles, up b.

as for the ike matchup. Approach with air dodge zair. Best if you have bomb in hand when you do so. Ibomb can work as an approach as well but more useful to counter approaches both on the ground or in the air.

Mix up your projectiles.

Counter aerial approaches by shielding and then nair OOS.

If he decides to use any charge moves (over b, or neutral b) just throw a projectile at his face.

Ike's pros are definitely his range, priority and crazy ability to kill at VERY low percentages. Don't get over confident. You may be able to rack up 140% damage in the time he gets 50% in you. But with the right move on his part and a mistake on your part, he can kill you at like 60%

Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #26 - Ike

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