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Stage Counter Pick and Bans - Currently disscusing: DK

crewster

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This thread is a guide to counter picking stages. Obviously all tourneys have different rules, so if a stage here is banned, then don't use it (A-DURRRR).

Mario:mario2:

CPs: Smashville, Battlefield, Corneria, Norfair

Bans: Final Destination, Jungle Japes, Pokemon Stadium 1, Pokemon Stadium 2


Summary:
Info Box said:
AliAsVee said:
If you were fighting a good mario...you'd give yourself as much space as possible and don't let him throw you off stage. A good Mario Gimp game will almost surely take off a stock. And if you get on the edge? Have fun with Luigi's poor ledge options, not one can't be beaten or predicted by a good mario.
Extra info:
Info Box said:
AliAsVee said:
Vs a Mario, you ban FD if you suck at dodging SH fireballs, go BF. If you ARE good at buffering and powershielding while spacing, don't waste a neutral ban on FD, do that on Lylat.

If you go Isle Delfino, play the middle of the stage at all times, since there are hazards a plenty at every stop. Remember a fresh bthrow almost always kills by the shine tower.

Go Luigi's Mansion if the Mario isn't tech-savvy. at higher percents Fthrow > Dash Attack lock from the middle of the stage gets them off stage, follow by a spike. Chances are they'll try to beat your Dair with an UpB, so either edgeguard if they dropped low to sweetspot the stage, or shield and angle it Below and towards the edge to catch them with an OOS UpB when they land on the ground. Luigi does not slide much when the attack is coming from below him so powershield is not needed, nay, discouraged because of the multi hit.

Just make sure you know how to tech REALLY WELL on LM, because you will go flying at high percents > gimped offstage. Only go there if you are confident you have better reaction skills than your Mario. You figure this by....

Going corneria/other stage with walls (which includes the dreaded Pokemon Stadiums). If you happen to friendly your opponent before hand, snapshot their ability to tech the walls at varying percents. If they suck at it, you know to go LM later to lock in a win. Remember also Luigi has more range with fireballs than Mario in LM, because of the tighter vertical space. Don't tornado however, because you WILL get punished on that stage. Try to catch them with Uairs or something if they run to the second level to avoid you.

Uthrow actually isnt too bad if you want them out of your house at high percents for a quick bair kill, use sparingly.
Peach:peach:

CPs: Brinster, Frigate Orphion , Yoshi's Island (Melee), Pokemon Stadium 1, Cornaria

Bans: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise.


Summary:
Info Box said:
LuigiKing said:
I think the matchup is pretty even though. Praxis has a bombin Peach and we play pretty much every tourney. Frigate is a good place to go, don't take her to lava stages because she can and will just float until lava arrives if need be. Your Bair is your best friend in this matchup for sure. Tornado is really good too. Oh, and something neet to do when she is floating at you (without a turnip) is just spam Fsmash and it will trade hits with her Dair, except you take 4 damage and she dies.
Extra info:
Info Box said:
SamusBrawler said:
Any stage with platforms could potentially give Luigi a bit of a problem, but it depends on the Peach player. Peaches utilt can easily reach you when you are on the platform, even her usmash can reach you, I think, but it is really hard to hit with in that situation. But it's her utilt you have to watch out for.
Personally I think battlefield wouldn't work too well for Luigi. Peach and Luigi both have great aerial moves, which is why I main them lol, but Peach unfortunately, out ranges him.

Flat stages like FD might work well for Luigi, but this also allows Peach to put her glide tossing game to good use, so expect a whole lot of turnips. The ceiling height allows Luigi to kill when he should be, and Peach is a fairly light character. And the width of FD is fairly big, allowing for to live longer when hit by one of Peaches fairs. I'll need more input on this stage from the rest of you, but now I'd say this stage works as a starter for Luigi.

Yoshi's Island and Smashville are debatable since they have a platform, but it's not as bad as BF so it shouldn't be a problem.
But I always seem to die on Yoshi's Island...... but this could just be bad DI on my part
But since Luigi kills earlier than Peach this might work out in his favor.

Smashville would be another good starter stage in my opinion. The platform moves side to side so it doesn't give an advantage to anyone all the time and the stage is a decent size.

Both of these stages could probably work in both characters favor at certain points, so it should be safe enough to pick against a Peach player. I always found Peach and Luigi to be fairly matched up in the first place, but I'd have to check on that =D



Stages that work in Luigi's favor would be the smaller stages. I usually pick Brinstar to as my Luigi's cp so that would probably be a good stage. There are platforms on this stage, but they are placed on the very edges of the stage, so all you'd have to look out for is her fair and the top platform to probably too high for her. She'd definitely have to jump twice and even then all she could do is her uair, or umbrella if she's desperate for a hit.

Brinstar Tip: When the Lava/acid has risen above everything except the top platform, then that gives you a good oportunity to use up b since they can't go anywhere else
But in Peaches case she can just float until the acid goes back down >_>


Then there is corneria. I actually don't know much about the stage, but I know you guys do, so I'll leave it for you =D
All I know is a low ceiling = a happy Luigi
Bowser:bowser2:

CPs: Rainbow Cruise, Final Destination, Smashville, Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Cornaria, Frigate Orphion

Bans: Battlefield, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1


Summary:
Info Box said:
Hippiedude92 said:
The matchup is pretty much a dead even 50:50. It can go 55:45 in either's favor due to CPs/bans. It's actually hard to find a good luigi and a good boozer so matchup knowledge and experience is really needed. Don't take Boozer to platforms since he has a better advantage there due to utilt/upair killing early and exposing luigi's blind spot. Anything flat to camp and spam fireballs controlling his approach.
Extra info:
Info Box said:
Hipiedude92 said:
Don't get grabbed. Space. Or eat a grab releases. Luigi and Boozer's blind spots in the air, is below them. First one to get someone in the air will eat alot of damage. Luigi's = air game Boozer = Ground game. Don't underestimate him. Watch out for OOS upb. You won't like its inv frames XD!
cr4sh said:
The way I play frigate is as follows.

Frist transformation, play a camp game. Do everything you can to not get hit, pass up risky hits, take only sure hits. Once the stage starts to warn of a flip get super agressive. As agressive as you possibly can without using your double jump. When the stage flips, hope for a gimp, try to make it happen. When the stage resets, play a central stage control game with fireballs. Get agressive again at stage flip, rinse, repeat.

It works very well against characters you might take here, peach, DK, oli, bowser, snake, link, zss, a few others.
Donkey Kong:dk2:

CPs:

Bans:


Summary:
Info Box said:
This will be used for he summary
Extra info:
Info Box said:
This will be used for the extra info
 

hippiedude92

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You stole that title from the marth boards lolol. If I noticed alia's post I would have said something. and you shoulda told the mario boards too since they're like our brothers lolz.

Why is jungle japes banned? Doesn't luigi do better than mario on that stage. Why is Norfair a CP? Doesn't to enchance mario's cape abilities? Cape stalling/cape gliding. Spiking luigi isn't that hard.... is it?
 

WIGI

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trust me on this, luigi has very limited recover on japes. it sucks. i pretty much got beat by a ron who stood there.


althow i diid do somthing so **** i can;t tell anyone. but i need to uplaod a vid sumhow
 

ALiAsVee

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Norfair is a counter because of what i said, and who cares about that cape dashing nonsense, it's not hard to avoid and it doesn't drastically throw you off on norfair anyway.

But don't take my word for gospel, I'm just talking personal picks because I fight a really good mario.

I'm not a fan of Jungle Japes, but it's compact enough so that you avoid the tornado and torpedo to recover, which cuts down on the gimpage. Mario doesn't really do worse IMO. Fresh Bthrows off the left side (I think that's the one you use to kill horizontally, iirc.) It's a little crammed, which might make Mario's fireball game a bit more versatile than yours, but it's manageable.

Luigi's greatest weakness is his offstage game, any stage pick for him should be on the basis that you are great onstage. Against a good (insert most characters here) a good edgegame is enough to take down most luigis. Especially revenge kills when you are at high percents, you'll just keep flying off stage if you don't beef up your D. it's usually the first few moments of invincibility where they catch you, because a lot of Luigi players run in and commence their repetitive attack patterns again.

In general, recover low so that the Mario can't gimp you with Fludd and have a harder time with the cape. If they can catch you with the cape teleport on a whim (which I don't think anyone can yet), HAHA you are screwed. Seriously, Mario's edgegame is the reason he has an advantage over his little brother imo. I typically can only get back on stage because the Mario makes a mistake.

Remember, counterpick to cover your offstage weaknesses, you should focus on the onstage game and make sure you can space/zone correctly so that you can make your kills before you lose your stock from a gimp.
 

hippiedude92

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But cape is the meat of mario's game. He can cape dash/cape stall on the edges and do some nasty stuff. And literally if luigi is recovering from low and get's hit, he should get hit at least to me lol.
 

ALiAsVee

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But cape is the meat of mario's game. He can cape dash/cape stall on the edges and do some nasty stuff. And literally if luigi is recovering from low and get's hit, he should get hit at least to me lol.
Mario's cape is almost useless if you recover from below. In fact, a cape can send Luigi's cyclone up. It's all about abusing your opponent to make them work for you. It's like the DK/Luigi Ladder vid i have somewhere on my youtube acc...


Last post ish edited btw.
 

hippiedude92

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Luigi's its dumb screwed if he recovers high. The only thing he can do is airdodge or throw a aerial and hope it hits. Mario can just easily follow luigi's DI, bait air dodge, cape him back again or do w/e he wants. Literally it's like resetting the situation.

depending on how low, mario can just go for a Fair spike, bair or a fireball sniping. Luigi "cannot" get hit when hes recovering. it's like having rob's upb as a fuel.

On japes the only problem is that if you land on the water depending from which platform, you'll always live if your somewhere near the right/middle platform. but if your on the left platform on the water, luigi can live, mario can't.

btw whats a cape teleport? lol
 

Matt07

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Mario does pretty good on platforms, I think he does slightly better then Luigi with platforms.

Rainbow Cruise shouldn't be too bad for Luigi vs Mario, it's kinda hard to 'gimp' Luigi, and Cape doesn't do too much on Luigi, unless we Cape your Green Missle (Side-B), but recover low, and you'll do fine.

Umm usually I like to take Luigi's on FD because I do have an easier time camping there with less platforms, and if Luigi misses an up B I can punish easier, but the same with Mario has well. Also more room to go for a 'gimp' on Luigi offstage.
 

ALiAsVee

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Mario does pretty good on platforms, I think he does slightly better then Luigi with platforms.

Rainbow Cruise shouldn't be too bad for Luigi vs Mario, it's kinda hard to 'gimp' Luigi, and Cape doesn't do too much on Luigi, unless we Cape your Green Missle (Side-B), but recover low, and you'll do fine.

Umm usually I like to take Luigi's on FD because I do have an easier time camping there with less platforms, and if Luigi misses an up B I can punish easier, but the same with Mario has well. Also more room to go for a 'gimp' on Luigi offstage.
I forgot about Rainbow Cruise, good stuff.
 

kigbariom

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Your sig isn't there LK
Also Mario is quite good and Rainbow Cruise, there is a lot of chances for Mario to be quick and gimp Luigi.
And this course restricts Luigi's UpB and Tornado capabilities because of the moving course and falling blocks. This stage is in Mario's favor about 60:40
 

KrazyCyclone

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Yoshi's Island

- Mario's short hopped or full jumped fireball fails on the slight curves of the level and you can get on the platform

- Small level makes it easy to force him off the edge in which you have the advantage to gimp his poor recovery ability

- You can own Mario with an Aerial onslaught into the air then if he DI's onto the platform then that gives you an opportunity to U air him setting up for another onslaught
 

LuigiKing

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Whaaaat is going on. It shows up in other threads for some reason. Does smashboards just arbitrarily decide when to show sigs and when not to? :(
 

Darknid

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As for Yoshi's Island, the points made really apply to both chars.

His fireballs aren't as great with Yoshi's Island's uneven floor but they are still better than yours.

His recovery game is poor, but on Yoshi's Island Mario can wall jump to recover from situations where he would otherwise fall, which also means he has plenty of room to hit you or spike you if you try and mess with him, and he can still recover because of the wall jumping.

Also remember that while your recovery game is a lot better, his gimping game is a lot better than yours and since it is a small stage it is also easier for him to knock you off.

Also, Mario can unleash an aerial onslaught on you as well and he will uair you through that platform should you land on it, only difference is if you shield, since Luigi wears ice shoes, you may fall off the edge of the platform and get hit by a second uair or fsmashed if he FFs after the first one.

So anyways, your recovery advantage is huge, use that. Norfair is good, it is hard to gimp players on that stage. Japes..Well, he may get you but you're still better off than he is, though it is by no means a good CP because it has a very high ceiling and Luigi's vertical kill potential is a lot better than Mario's, take him to a low ceiling stage like halberd or corneria.
 

crewster

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Remember this? Well the LBR gave up on it ags ago, so now it is open to the public.
 

hippiedude92

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Wow forgot about this lol. Why did the mod close ur thread at boozer boards anyways crewster? Didn't understand it.

- Bans

Ban anything with platforms. Literally. Sure we can combo the living crap out of him, but good Boozer's won't be in that kind of bad position. His utilt/Upair go through a whole platform and kill Luigi insanely early. Ban Battlefield, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1.

- CPs

CP with Rainbow Cruise. This place puts ground game at a shut down since your moving alot. Take it to the air and dominate him while moving. Just becareful of low ceiling.

CP anything flat. FD, Smashville, Halberd (?). Since Boozer has a hard time approaching due to fireballs you might as well go flat on the stage. Control his approachs on flat ground and punish it accordily. (although he doesn't really have a hard time with fireballs since jab/ftilt beat it but meh )


Summary : The matchup is pretty much a dead even 50:50. It can go 55:45 in either's favor due to CPs/bans. It's actually hard to find a good luigi and a good boozer so matchup knowledge and experience is really needed. Don't take Boozer to platforms since he has a better advantage there due to utilt/upair killing early and exposing luigi's blind spot. Anything flat to camp and spam fireballs controlling his approach.

Extra info : - Don't get grabbed. Space. Or eat a grab releases.

- Luigi and Boozer's blind spots in the air, is below them. First one to get someone in the air will eat alot of damage.

- Luigi's = air game Boozer = Ground game. Don't underestimate him

- Watch out for OOS upb. You won't like its inv frames XD!
 

B!squick

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Wow forgot about this lol. Why did the mod close ur thread at boozer boards anyways crewster? Didn't understand it.
You can't make threads that just link to other threads. So you can't make a thread on another board to say, "hey, we're dicussing you." Now you have to make a post about it in that board's match up thread, or something similar. It's silly and trivial, I know.

- Bans

Ban anything with platforms. Literally. Sure we can combo the living crap out of him, but good Boozer's won't be in that kind of bad position. His utilt/Upair go through a whole platform and kill Luigi insanely early. Ban Battlefield, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1.
Yeah. Norfair especially if it's playable, it's usually tourny dependent. Bowser and Norfair were made for each other.

- CPs

CP with Rainbow Cruise. This place puts ground game at a shut down since your moving alot. Take it to the air and dominate him while moving. Just becareful of low ceiling.
Rainbow Cruise is a perfect counter pick, though again it's usually tourny dependent. Carful on the floating ship part, though. Bowser is in his most favorable position there with it being so small.

CP anything flat. FD, Smashville, Halberd (?). Since Boozer has a hard time approaching due to fireballs you might as well go flat on the stage. Control his approachs on flat ground and punish it accordily. (although he doesn't really have a hard time with fireballs since jab/ftilt beat it but meh )
He also has his gigantic shield too for fireballs. It's great for limiting his approaches (as all projectiles do to Bowser) since it makes it difficult to get inside through Klaw Hopping, but don't rely on it too much. It's range is the worst or at least one of the worst, but it still forces Bowser to approach which is good for you.

As stages go, Final Destination would probably be perfect for you due to it's size, though Smashville and Halberd are a bit dubious as counter picks because, again, of the size. Halberd would be better than Smashville once you get to the second version (on the Halberd itself) and the adventurous can attack Bowser through the bottom platform when the stage is "flying." And speaking of attacking through the bottom platform, Delfino Plaza would also be a nice choice. Not only that, but the stage is always moving and when it "lands" the new areas are generally large. Carful of the walk off though, and a well timed Bowser Bomb just before it "lands" is survivable for Bowser, but that's very very unlikely to happen.

Bowser is also horrible on Jungle Japes, more so than Luigi aslong as he can get out of the water.

And careful with your punishing. Bowser is also looking to do the same thing with his fantastic OoS options and giant shield. Did I mention his shield?


Summary : The matchup is pretty much a dead even 50:50. It can go 55:45 in either's favor due to CPs/bans. It's actually hard to find a good luigi and a good boozer so matchup knowledge and experience is really needed.
Indeed. Also, be wary of his attack range. It's like, *holds out arms* this big.

Don't take Boozer to platforms since he has a better advantage there due to utilt/upair killing early and exposing luigi's blind spot.
Mostly UTilt. UAir is more for punishing air dodges.

Anything flat to camp and spam fireballs controlling his approach.
Make sure it's big too. The less moving Bowser has to do the better it is for him.

Extra info : - Don't get grabbed. Space. Or eat a grab releases.
You're best bet is to try to get a jump release if grabbed, but yes, do avoid getting grabbed.

- Luigi and Boozer's blind spots in the air, is below them. First one to get someone in the air will eat alot of damage.
Indeed, though you do have the advantage off stage, I think.

- Luigi's = air game Boozer = Ground game. Don't underestimate him

- Watch out for OOS upb. You won't like its inv frames XD!
Yes. It's priority is sick.
 

hippiedude92

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Lolwut. I've seen alot of boards making threads about " hey we're ________ " and b lah blah blah. But they haven't got locked >.> Bleh oh wellies lol.

On offstage, it's not that bad really lol. Both can gimp each other pretty well since it's predictable and easy to beat. But since luigi has better vertical recovery, he wins in that but still can get hit out of it jsut so you know :]

i hope i hit all the correct points on boozer, lol, i play as him as well and did the discussion on mario boards haha
 

MrEh

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As far as stage picks go, I think Luigi and Bowser go even at the neutral stages. Bowser does better on Battlefield and Yoshi's, while Luigi does better on Smashvile and Final Destination.

Bowser will absolutely wreck Luigi on any stage with a lot of platforms. Platforms hinder your comboing ability, and they essentially work as big shields for Bowser to hide under. It would probably be better for you to ban Battlefield, since that will increase your chances of getting a good Luigi stage in the first round. Lylat and Yoshi's also work in Bowser's favor because of the platform crap. Don't bother taking him to Norfair. Bowser ***** there.


Bowser is very easy to counterpick, since he has very exploitable disadvantages. Take him to Rainbow Cruise to royally screw him up.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Slippi.gg
KORO#668
Luigi vs Bowser stages:

How about Frigate orpheon or norfair for a counterpick
Orpheon hampers bowsers recovery and forces people to approach in the air, norfair lava combos work well vs bowser and forces aerial battles also
 

hippiedude92

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As far as stage picks go, I think Luigi and Bowser go even at the neutral stages. Bowser does better on Battlefield and Yoshi's, while Luigi does better on Smashvile and Final Destination.

Bowser will absolutely wreck Luigi on any stage with a lot of platforms. Platforms hinder your comboing ability, and they essentially work as big shields for Bowser to hide under. It would probably be better for you to ban Battlefield, since that will increase your chances of getting a good Luigi stage in the first round. Lylat and Yoshi's also work in Bowser's favor because of the platform crap. Don't bother taking him to Norfair. Bowser ***** there.


Bowser is very easy to counterpick, since he has very exploitable disadvantages. Take him to Rainbow Cruise to royally screw him up.
Silly MrEh. You repeated my stuff =[. xD Yeah i agree with u, pretty much even on neutral stages. Seems to go back and forth alot. How about luigi's mansion?

Luigi vs Bowser stages:

How about Frigate orpheon or norfair for a counterpick
Orpheon hampers bowsers recovery and forces people to approach in the air, norfair lava combos work well vs bowser and forces aerial battles also

I personally think they go even in frigate. Sure, when the stage turns upside, but how many times do u see that? Not every 5 seconds or anything :( Also, the platforms are perfect position for boozer's utilt kills or luigi's wall of aerials from below but boozer's benefits from it more than luigi which why imo its even there. As for norfair, nah, boozer has lots of fun in klaw hopping in my exp. Also, majority of the time, someone will be approaching directly from their head which will majority of the time, get *****>.> (blind spot from below anyone?)
 

B!squick

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Luigi vs Bowser stages:

How about Frigate orpheon or norfair for a counterpick
Orpheon hampers bowsers recovery and forces people to approach in the air, norfair lava combos work well vs bowser and forces aerial battles also
This post is really silly when reading it right after MrEh's. :) Frigate only hampers Bowser's recovery on the right side, and that's only on the first section. And Norfair is only bad for Bowser if it's against MK.
 

MrEh

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How about luigi's mansion?
If Bowser starts shooting fire on the bottom floor, how will you get through? You can't. XD


Bowser does fine there, but there are better stages.
 

kigbariom

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I could play Bowser on FD all day, I could also play him on Corneria all day, its nice and long, giving you time and space to avoid a big Bowser hit, Corneria for sure, then BF/FD for me.
I kind of find Bowser harder on Luigi's Mansion than others, until the house breaks down...
 

B!squick

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The only problem with Corneria is that the low ceiling means earlier kills for Bowser. Means earlier kills for Luigi too obviously, but Luigi can die at lower percents. It's a long long stage so it's still probably a good pick for that alone.
 
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