Fastest Aerials + Momentum Altering Moves

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

1)
The Using Aerials for Recovery thread started the Optimal DI moves, to bad it was "Last edited by Ulevo; 10-20-2008"

3 Months out of date, and nowhere near finished, I thought I would take on and complete that project. (Any and all help of finding or gathering frame data will be helpful

)

List:

Bowser
Fair - 41 Frames

Captain Falcon

Diddy Kong

Donkey Kong
Bair - 31 Frames

Falco

Fox

G&W
Nair - 34 Frames

Ganondorf

Ice Climbers

Ike
Dair or Bair - 55 Frames

Jigglypuff

King Dedede

Kirby

Link

Lucario
Fair - 30 Frames

Lucas
Bair or Nair - 39 Frames

Luigi
Fair - 23 Frames

Mario

Marth
Fair - 34 Frames

Meta Knight
Uair - 13 Frames

Ness
Nair - 39 Frames

Olimar

Peach

Pikachu

Pit

Pokemon Trainer: Charizard

Pokemon Trainer: Ivysaur

Pokemon Trainer: Squirtle

R.O.B

Samus

Sheik
Fair - 28 Frames

Snake

Sonic

Toon Link

Wario

Wolf
Bair - 21 Frames?

Yoshi

Zelda

ZSS

Will update with a character list.

~~___________________________~~

2)
"Momentum Canceling", I'm seeing these threads pop up EVERYWHERE. I'm sure the Smash Researches are working on testing moves that alter momentuml, why they do it, etc.

G&W's bucket stops all momentum, thats why bucket canceling exists. -Not every special can do this- and I plan to work (with certain testers help if they wish, and all help from the Smash Researches will be thanked) to create a list of all moves that can momentum cancel.

List:

G&W
Down-B

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Reserved in case of some bizarre reason as to why I would need more room.

(Maybe explanations of how each move momentum cancels when we get a list and do our testing?)

I went through every board. Some places (eg; Falco) had frame data but it didn't say how -long- the aerials lasted.

If anyone can fill in missing data, and link me to the reference (unless you gathered the data yourself, then post your findings here) let me know.

--Reserved--

xoxokev · Jan 20, 2009

Ness
Nair - ends on frame 39 (according to Ref's frame data)

As for

Diddy Kong, no one has actually done testing for frame data... but I believe his bair is the quickest to end... since it's the only aerial he can do twice in one short hop

And

Mario
uair for the same reason I think bair ends fastest for Diddy, although I've seen Mario's dair being used the most to cancel momentum

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Most people use dair if its fast, because it fastfalls easiest for most people.....

I couldn't make sense of Ref's frame data... -_-

N air Sweet spot

Start up: 4 frames
Hits: 5
Hitlag: 6-13
ENDs: 39
Landing lag: 19
Shield Lag: 9
Shield stun: 3

N air sour spot

Start up: 19
Hits: 20
Hit lag: 21-27
ENDS:---
Shield Lag: 7
Shield Stun: 3

Sourspot never ends? Or is it the same as the sweetspot and ...yah...I'm an idiot -_- nevermind...

Also, I want frame data to back it up.

Falcon's were using dair and fair.... my frame data indicates those were poor choices... (haven't finished my frame data yet) but dair and fair? no......just...no...

I'll update Ness now, thanks.

Ulevo · Jan 20, 2009

You're welcome to do whatever it is you like. Your efforts, as time trends forward, will have you realize it is a waste of time to contribute to these boards. Hence why I haven't updated anything for anything.

TheNix · Jan 20, 2009

DK's up+b and Yoshi's forward+b also stop momentum, like G&W's bucket. I've heard the same thing about Squirtle's forward+b, but I'm not 100% sure about that one. ZSS's down+b also helps her survive from horizontal KOs, but I don't think it actually stops momentum.

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

These aren't "DI moves".

"Momentum cancelling" has nothing to do with DI except insofar as sometimes it's better to DI suboptimally for your momentum cancelling strategy.

Your DI is read on the last frame of hitlag. That is the only time you DI. When you're flying away in knockback, hitlag is long since over.

Also, you can fast fall at any point during an aerial, so if you don't have a "momentum cancelling" special and you're hit up, it doesn't matter which aerial you use.

ftl · Jan 20, 2009

Bair is the fastest for Falco. Don't have frame data, though.

Chaco · Jan 20, 2009

Yoshi's is Uair, I'm trying to locate the frame data now. It disappeared.

Also, egg breaking, bike breaking, and whatever DK's is.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

ColinJF said:
These aren't "DI moves".

"Momentum cancelling" has nothing to do with DI except insofar as sometimes it's better to DI suboptimally for your momentum cancelling strategy.

Your DI is read on the last frame of hitlag. That is the only time you DI. When you're flying away in knockback, hitlag is long since over.

Also, you can fast fall at any point during an aerial, so if you don't have a "momentum cancelling" special and you're hit up, it doesn't matter which aerial you use.

How come "proper DI" is to use your quickest aerials? I feel you know what I mean, whether I used the wrong term(s) or not.

Since this is about which moves to use during knockback (eg; Nair for G&W) I figured it would help to add the 'momentum canceling' moves as well (eg; Bucket for G&W) because currently that is the 'proper' way to recover.

When hit at higher %'s, you should Nair then Bucket as G&W for optimal survival (along with proper DI)

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

Havokk said:
How come "proper DI" is to use your quickest aerials?

It isn't.

DI doesn't involve aerials at all. Your DI is read on the last frame of hitlag.

Your thread is simply furthering a confused understanding of what DI actually is.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

ColinJF said:
It isn't.

DI doesn't involve aerials at all.

Your thread is simply furthering a confused understanding of what DI actually is.

So if I DI and use uair during the knockback, it won't save me any better then not using an aerial?

Hm, time to get out of the habit of using my quickest aerial then.

*sigh*

I understand the actual DI (eg; holding left/right during the last frame of hitlag when hit by Marth's up smash) but afterwards, while recovering.....

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

The fact that using aerials and other "momentum cancelling" strategies helps you survive doesn't mean they have anything to do with DI.

Your DI is the direction on the control stick on the last frame of hitlag. Hint: that's before you're in knockback, and before you can use any aerials.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

ColinJF said:
The fact that using aerials and other "momentum cancelling" strategies helps you survive doesn't mean they have anything to do with DI.

Your DI is the direction on the control stick on the last frame of hitlag. Hint: that's before you're in knockback, and before you can use any aerials.

Like my reponse to you before.

Sorry I used the wrong terms, tell me which words to replace, and with what words I should replace them with and I'll update the thread.

Most people refer to DI as the means of altering momentum during knockback to recover. (Eg; holding up/left and adjusting accordingly to aim for the furthest blast zone, using your quickest aerial, and if it applies fastfall, and if it applies use a momentum canceling move (eg; Bucket).

Therefore, out of what I've known for months refered to as DI, I refer to it, as DI although I understand it truly isn't "DI in its actual definition."

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

I don't care if you're in a habit of using wrong terminology. It just causes confusion and the fact that you defended it is obnoxious.

If you want a name for the list just call it "fastest aerials".

Kirk · Jan 20, 2009

You input your DI BEFORE you get knocked back.

What you are listing is how to stop/slow your horizontal momentum so you can in turn survive at higher percents, correct? DI has nothing to do with this particular area.

Also, with some characters, using an Air Dodge + Jumping is better for horizontal recoveries(tested myself with Ike... his aerials are so slow they don't help at all). Though I can't say if this is the case with any other character, as I haven't tested it.

With vertical trajectories, Colin is also right that using any aerial coupled with a fast fall is your best option. Since one can fast fall at the START of the aerial, it doesn't matter which one you use. You can't make yourself fall down faster depending on which aerial ends faster. It's only applicable with horizontal trajectories.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Words get street meaning, even in gaming.

You don't see me *****ing over people calling the DACUS just "DAC" do you?

"Really, you want to know how to Dash Attack Cancel? What do you want to cancel it into? Oh, an Up Smash? That's a DACUS you obnoxious moron!"

I'll change it, I can understand that you dislike people having the wrong idea of what DI actually is, when really all they are doing is 'surviving in the best possible way'.

Updating now, if you have any other problems (or I'm spreading the wrong information) please correct me.

EDIT:

I realize this post sounded pretty *****y. Don't worry, I'm not mad at you, especially since you are right. Also, you're both researchers and I can trust you know your **** more then I do.

Edit 2:

Even if for vertical trajectories, what about diagonal ones? Ones where you are launched at roughly a 45 degree angle? Do you want to use your quickest aerial, or any aerial and fastfall? I would guess quickest aerial, so while it "doesn't matter" in actuality, in gameplay it would matter.

Or am I even more wrong now? XD

xoxokev · Jan 20, 2009

Kirk said:
With vertical trajectories, Colin is also right that using any aerial coupled with a fast fall is your best option. Since one can fast fall at the START of the aerial, it doesn't matter which one you use. You can't make yourself fall down faster depending on which aerial ends faster. It's only applicable with horizontal trajectories.

So for vertical knock back, wouldn't you want to use the aerial that starts the fastest?

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

When we talk about aerials "starting", we mean when the hitbox comes out, which is obviously irrelevant for the purpose of fast falling. You can fast fall as soon as you input the aerial.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

xoxokev said:
So for vertical knock back, wouldn't you want to use the aerial that starts the fastest?

No, that doesn't matter.

Frame x (I won't assume 1...) in any aerial allows you to fastfall. So for a 90 degree angle (straight up) any aerial > fastfall would do.

However, for gameplay purposes, you still want the fastest aerial.

If I see a Bowser Dair to survive vertical knockback, I may laugh. They get screwed over by the end lag, how easy it is to punish, etc.

EDIT:

It also seems researchers are getting anal over correct* names and definitions.

*You know, no street lingo allowed. Because even if 1,000 people say one thing, if a few researchers say its another thing, it is. Something about this tells me when they start making 'official' names for things, some things aren't going to go over so well.

The whole 'bombslide = dacit' thing was similiar to the 'snake dash/mortar slide = dacus' thing... not saying 'what you know now is a lie and wrong. you mean x because y is really z"

Chaco · Jan 20, 2009

Off topic, your sig makes me laugh. No one gives a **** about DR. Believe me, like three Yoshi mains use it.

Back on topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo

EDIT: It's not the best vid. Lmao

Amazing Ampharos · Jan 20, 2009

We want things to be understood. Spreading incorrect information or using misleading terms makes the jobs of those who want to spread knowledge of game mechanics harder and is counter-productive. DI refers to a specific thing, and a lot of new players are very confused by it to the point where they do it wrong because they don't understand what we mean. Only ever referring to actual DI as DI is something those of us who understand it should take as a duty to help the newer players.

xoxokev · Jan 20, 2009

Ah, okay... well what about those certain aerials that keep moving upwards if you input them right after you get sent vertically (Sonic's dair for example)? Can you fast fall those as well?

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Chaco said:
Off topic, your sig makes me laugh. No one gives a **** about DR. Believe me, like three Yoshi mains use it.

Back on topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo

EDIT: It's not the best vid. Lmao

I should contact Arkive and tell him to rename the video to

"Things you should know: How to recover"

EDIT:

Words gain new definitions, and others change. Perhaps rather then trying to drastically change 1,000 mindsets, find an easier method.

A google is a number (if I remember, 1 followed by 1 million 0's. Now when someone says Google it, that normally means to search it on the internet (most often Google, lol) and not anything to do with the number.

I'm to lazy to think of a better example, or multiple examples, or even an example that applies more directly to this situation, just offering another solution to the same problem.

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

xoxokev said:
Ah, okay... well what about those certain aerials that keep moving upwards if you input them right after you get sent vertically (Sonic's dair for example)? Can you fast fall those as well?

Aerials like that aren't special; no aerial will change your velocity when used in knockback. Yes, you can fast fall aerials like them.

Also, the linked video does cause some confusion with idiosyncratic word use among other things.

BBoyindo · Jan 20, 2009

MK UAIR

frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21

From the metaknight frame data thread. Uair is obv the best.

Chaco · Jan 20, 2009

Yeah that vid confused me a while back. I swear I still don't DI properly. I'm not the best DIer. Lol.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

BBoyindo said:
MK UAIR

frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21

From the metaknight frame data thread. Uair is obv the best.

That was one of the frame data threads that confused me. I prefer to have in my frame summary: "Total frames: x"

Chaco said:
Yeah that vid confused me a while back. I swear I still don't DI properly. I'm not the best DIer. Lol.

You're not DI'ing, your recovering.

In fact, since its data and not gameplay, there isn't even a 'correct' way to DI... just hold a direction during the last frame of hitlag. If I'm understanding all of this. :laugh:

"Proper" DI as it applies to gameplay is to DI in such a fashion as to help survivabilty, or to avoid certain things.

Recovering is combining proper DI with proper "I don't even know what to call it any more" and momentum altering, if it applies.

xoxokev · Jan 20, 2009

Havokk said:
You're not DI'ing, your recovering.

Maybe he was referring to DI'ing, which is your directional input BEFORE you get knocked back... right?

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

xoxokev said:
Maybe he was referring to DI'ing, which is your directional input BEFORE you get knocked back... right?

Oh, he never did any specifics (eg; "When you hold a direction during the last frame of hitlag, that is DI") and just showed what a move looks like with and without DI.

But his very beginning thing shows off how he used 'proper' DI, quickest xx, and fastfalling to survive.

He never really states what DI is, and that video is actually seen and linked to by many people, only helping the spread of false information.

At least, I got linked to it from someone who said they link many people to it, and in the time I've known about it, I've linked it to many people, and many of them have linked it to many people, and I'm sure its not just me and these people, but MANY MORE people.

I had a comprehension of DI, but not a good grasp of it. I saw the video and much of it made sense, and ever since then I've referred to 'surviving' as DI.

Kirk · Jan 20, 2009

Havokk said:
I had a comprehension of DI, but not a good grasp of it. I saw the video and much of it made sense, and ever since then I've referred to 'surviving' as DI.

DI definitely helps in 'surviving'(given you use it correctly in a given situation), but it doesn't encompass the whole 'surviving' concept.

Oh, and this:

Amazing Ampharos said:
We want things to be understood. Spreading incorrect information or using misleading terms makes the jobs of those who want to spread knowledge of game mechanics harder and is counter-productive. DI refers to a specific thing, and a lot of new players are very confused by it to the point where they do it wrong because they don't understand what we mean. Only ever referring to actual DI as DI is something those of us who understand it should take as a duty to help the newer players.

Definitely this.

Mr. Escalator · Jan 20, 2009

Havokk said:
That was one of the frame data threads that confused me. I prefer to have in my frame summary: "Total frames: x"

It's pretty obvious that the final frame listed of the cooldown is how many frames the entire move is. Just because he didn't include the duration of the move separately doesn't mean it's not available right in front of you

MK
Uair - 13 frames

That better?

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Kirk said:
DI definitely helps in 'surviving'(given you use it correctly in a given situation), but it doesn't encompass the whole 'surviving' concept.

Oh, and this:

Definitely this.

I understand that, but we have nothing to call it besides "recover", and DI is the first step, already is confusing to most as is, and so just got tagged along as a label for "recover".

I will help in stopping the misuse of the word, but I'm really not expecting high results, due to how long 'recover/survive' has been referred to as DI, and that it may feel strange for people to say "You must recover!"

:laugh:

I thought about what I say "You must DI properly!" (referring to recovering, not just DI) and then thought... hm, if I start calling it recovering (what it really is <_<) its going to make me laugh everytime, for a long time.

tl;dr

I have issues.

Magus420 · Jan 20, 2009

You want to look at IASAs when they are listed. For example while Luigi's D-Air has the shortest total animation the F-Air is interruptible the soonest (on the 24th), which is what matters.

Luigi
Fair - 23 Frames

Amazing Ampharos · Jan 20, 2009

The culture isn't like you say. Do people say "Link has a bad recovery" or "Link has bad DI"? The former is not only the statement that is correct, but it's far more common.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Amazing Ampharos said:
The culture isn't like you say. Do people say "Link has a bad recovery" or "Link has bad DI"? The former is not only the statement that is correct, but it's far more common.

Are people actually talking about his up-B, or his actual 'recovery'. Again, recovery isn't the word most people use to define this, its DI.

His up-B is god-awful, therefore up-B is 'recovery' and 'recovery is bad'

_Tiamat_ · Jan 20, 2009

To whoever complained about this first... are you aware of how many people on these boards refer to things as simple as lateral aerial movement as DI? Half of the guides on character specific boards say things such as ''while falling, DI toward the stage'' (just an example) I think it's too late to act already, it's like trying to tell the whole internet to stop using lol except when they are literaly laughing out loud

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

Hence me saying try to find a word to either replace DI that will be easy to get into their head, or find a word and alter its definition.

Word's get definitions added and changed often, especially as time goes on.

Just because DI was 'x' definition 'b' years ago, doesn't mean it can't change to 'y' definition over time.

eg; Before Google, when did anyone say Google it as "search it on the internet"? Oh yah... probably nobody. amirite?

ColinJF · Jan 20, 2009

I can't believe you're seriously defending your misuse of a basic term.

SuSa · Jan 20, 2009

I'm proposing a solution, not defending it.

Haven't I stopped using the term as I once did, since you told me? - Yes

Have I been correcting other people? - Yes

Do I truly believe we can change 100's of peoples mindsets about what DI is? - No

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