Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Currently incomplete, but I never get this stuff done in one sitting anymore. Please laugh at Hype, as he posted before I could reserve the first two posts, when I had stated I was going to. lol, silly Hype.
Update: Basics are complete
A note from the author:
This is long. However, reading it will probably boost your game. The choice is yours. Also, hidden text is simply explanations for a few terms that inexperienced players might not recognize. I've removed the spoilers from the middle of each paragraph, to the beginning, so it wouldn't look like there are large portions of text missing. Anything that has a spoiler related to it at the beginning of the paragraph has a corresponding number of astrix (*) next to it. If you frequent these boards, or even if you understand what I'm talking about, there will be no reason to highlight and read hidden text, so you can simply read right over it. For inexperienced player with lower knowledge of fighter and smash vocabulary, it may be necessary for you to highlight the hidden text to get a deeper explanation, so you can understand what's going on.
Introduction:
As all the Marth vets know, our metagame has fluctuated from a really defensive style, to a really offensive style, and now, I believe it's regressing back to a more reactive pressure style.
What I want to talk about in this thread is about HOW you should deal with different characters in terms of offense and defense. I notice that very few of the match-up threads actually cover the style you should use, since at the time, it was either "Marth should always be on offense, because it's good for pressure and limits your opponents option." or "Marth should be on defense because he has more options himself, and it's hard to pressure him and get through his walls."
Now, before I begin, I'll revisit a few basics, so that less experienced players can learn how they should generally act, when playing either offensively or defensively. Chances are, either way, you're doing it wrong.
Recap 1- When on the Offense:
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Your main pressure tool should be your Fair. Double Fairing* is not always necessary, nor advisable. Mixing up double fairs with SHFFFairs** is very advisable. You should aim to hit your opponent's shield with a rising fair often, so you can pull off, and air control*** backwards.
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After landing one Fair on a shield, I PERSONALLY (everyone has their own style) like to land with an Uair. Using both Uair and Fair helps both to stay fresher, and ends up dealing more net damage*. Additionally, an auto-canceled Uair combos into virtually every move (exceptions: shieldbreaker, counter, dsmash above 5ish %, dtilt above 5ish %) at low percents. When your opponent gets too high in damage to follow up with a ground attack, you can always follow up with an aerial. When your opponent gets too high for you to even follow up with another Uair, then you can begin a juggle trap**. Even MK can be juggled, unless he goes for a ledge, so either way, this is very good to do. If you space it, it is safe to use Uair on a shield, and Uair can also be used for auto-canceled cross-ups***. It also makes it much harder to roll behind Marth. Some people also like to land with first hit Nair for it's combo potential as well. First hit Nair works at later percentages, and lets you combo into kill moves, Uair sets up traps, and does more damage on it's own. Decide which to use for your own personal play style, and in what situations.
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Now, this air pressure should also be mixed up with ground pressure. Very often, when you land, instead of transitioning straight into another aerial, you should often use some ground pressure to punctuate your game, and leave no holes. If you neglect to add in good ground pressure, or let your air pressure game get too predictable, good players will simply run underneath you and Usmash, or use an anti-air attack*, or simply shield and Dragon Punch**
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Fortunately, Marth also has amazing ground pressuring tools. Marth's Dtilt, like his Fair, is virtually safe on block*. Also, this move can be used in succession multiple times. So if you hit a shield with this, and you're not in shield grab range, it's perfectly safe to use it again. If it connects at close range, it will combo into another dtilt, Dancing Blade, ftilt, or Fsmash (depends on opponent DI and your spacing which is the best to use). Sometimes, if your opponent is really close, they will get hit behind you, but you can still combo with a pivoting attack**. Obviously, Dancing Blade is easiest in this situation, as it's fastest, and easy to turn around. Fsmash may be too slow, depending, but is still a fairly O.K. option when used correctly. Pivot Dtilt is probably the BEST option, though the hardest to execute, since it requires a quarter circle joystick into a reverse quarter circle joystick input***. It's the best, because it can then be followed up again with Dancing Blade, ftilt, or Fsmash. Oh, and you can probably follow it up dtilt with Fair too of course. Even if the Fair is shielded, that's fine, you can always land into another dtilt.
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Another decent poke move is DB1*. It is very unsafe for your opponent to try and attack you immediately after first hit Dancing Blade, because most opponent's lack fast enough options to hit you before the second hit. Quickly swipe with the first and pay close attention. If it connects, swing the rest of the combo quickly. If not, jump back and Fair, or do a dtilt. Dancing Blade isn't technically safe on block, but it's the fastest of all your moves. Additionally, it deals very good damage, and can be done backwards, in the air, or out of a dash. It's amazingly versatile, so it should be used wisely. Try not to get predictable though, since your opponent CAN punish it's moderate cool-down lag** by either shielding, or rolling behind you.
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This is all very amazing, because your opponent's shield is a limited resource. It only takes about 3 to 4 shielded attacks (either Fair or dtilts, you don't want your other attacks to hit a shield or you can be punished) before your dtilt is able to shield stab* your opponent. Additionally, Dancing Blade becomes more usable when your opponent cannot safely shield the entire combo. Lastly, shield breaker becomes very useful when your opponent loses the ability to shield it.
I'm not going to cover how to offensively edgeguard your opponent right now, because this is just basics. Perhaps one day, I'll have a change of heart and include it.
Recap 2 - When on the defense:
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Marth on the defensive plays VERY differently than Marth on the offensive. If you think there is only one fighting style you will need to master Marth, you are sadly mistaken. Spacing* is important when playing offensively and defensively, but zoning** because MUCH more important in defensive play.
When playing defensively, Marth usually doesn't aim to hit his opponent. Keep in mind that you still need to connect hits on your opponent, knock them off the stage, and prevent them from recovering to take away stocks, but when playing defensively, the methods used to score these hits are different. Playing defensively is sometimes referred to as camping, and is something Marth does very well. However, if you want to play this way, come prepared with a lot of patience. Against opponents that camp you back, these matches will take very long. It's a required style against many top level players, and certain characters, so buckle up.
Generally, one initiates zoning by reducing the distance between themselves and their opponent partially, but not completely. Marth should leave enough space so that his opponent cannot hit him with anything fast enough that he can't react to with his shield. Once in position, Marth should use Fair, Nair , some dtilt, some retreated shield breaker, a tiny drop of ftilt, and a little bit of Dancing Blade, to make it very hard for his opponent to approach him. Make sure to mix in full hops appropriately.
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You aren't directly attack your opponent, but you aren't idle either. Constantly in motion of swaying forwards and backwards in the air, you are mixing up SHFFFairs, and Double Fairs, which are your main wall. Dtilt stops approaching opponents from running in. Jab comes out very quickly, and helps make it harder for your opponent to read your patterns, and pick up what you're going to do next. Ftilt makes it harder for people to predict a Fair and meet you in the air*. Dancing Blade has transcended priority**, deals good damage and knockback, and comes out quick as jab***, so it's one of your best attacks for racking up percent, as it's highly effective for punishing mistakes. Retreated**** Shield breaker is good because it has huge range, severely damages your opponent's shield if they approached with their shield which can open up opportunities for offense and approach, deals decent damage and knockback, can be charged to beat out spot-dodges, and has transcended priority as well. SHFFNairs should be done in place a lot as well, as it prevents the opponent from rolling underneath or behind you, and makes cross-ups on you MUCH more difficult.
From here, you want to take control of the center of the stage if you're not already there. This is important, because it allows you the space to retreat if needed, and more importantly, it reduces the space for your opponent to retreat. Your advancements should be small and patient, and in tune with your opponent's retreats and advancements. Occasionally, you'll be facing an opponent with equal or greater defensive options, so causing them to retreat will be a difficult task which will require patience, and calculated approaches, which will not be elaborate. Running or walking up and shielding, is also useful tactic, because it allows you to begin zoning closer to your opponent, and can force them backwards if your spacing and attacks are good. However, it should not be used too often. If someone predicts that you are going to shield, they can adjust their spacing accordingly and damage your shield for free, or simply grab you and take a large amount of control.
Let's note that even though you are trying to slowly advance, you can still retreat if it's necessary. Remember, a good opponent is going to be using their tactics against you as well, and you aren't going to be able to stop everything without giving up any room. Rolling backwards is okay to do as well. Giving up space is okay if it helps you to avoid getting hit, which would cost you more space anyway.
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Also, remember that every once in a while, you make a small approach at random, to poke at your opponent. As usual, Fair will be your standard approach. Dancing Blade will also be an approach move here, as it punishes spot dodging, and comes out quickly. If your opponent is jumping very predictably, and you are confident in what you are doing, you may want to try using Usmash or Uair from below (for experienced players only). Grabbing is also good if you predict your opponent is going to shield. Don't forget that Marth has a Dragon Punch, so if something hits your shield, or even if something is about to hit your shield, you can punish with DS OOS*. Remember, you need to jump cancel** your shield to perform this technique. Dolphin Slash*** has a lot of cool-down lag, so be very careful when using this technique.
Eventually, you want to push your opponent to the ledge, or hit them off the stage. Once again, I'm not going to talk about edge-guarding, because this is just basics. I may include it someday.
And that concludes the basics. Now I'll be discussing what style you will probably find most effective against your opponent's characters.
Update: Basics are complete
A note from the author:
This is long. However, reading it will probably boost your game. The choice is yours. Also, hidden text is simply explanations for a few terms that inexperienced players might not recognize. I've removed the spoilers from the middle of each paragraph, to the beginning, so it wouldn't look like there are large portions of text missing. Anything that has a spoiler related to it at the beginning of the paragraph has a corresponding number of astrix (*) next to it. If you frequent these boards, or even if you understand what I'm talking about, there will be no reason to highlight and read hidden text, so you can simply read right over it. For inexperienced player with lower knowledge of fighter and smash vocabulary, it may be necessary for you to highlight the hidden text to get a deeper explanation, so you can understand what's going on.
Introduction:
As all the Marth vets know, our metagame has fluctuated from a really defensive style, to a really offensive style, and now, I believe it's regressing back to a more reactive pressure style.
What I want to talk about in this thread is about HOW you should deal with different characters in terms of offense and defense. I notice that very few of the match-up threads actually cover the style you should use, since at the time, it was either "Marth should always be on offense, because it's good for pressure and limits your opponents option." or "Marth should be on defense because he has more options himself, and it's hard to pressure him and get through his walls."
Now, before I begin, I'll revisit a few basics, so that less experienced players can learn how they should generally act, when playing either offensively or defensively. Chances are, either way, you're doing it wrong.
(this probably means you reader, so pay attention)
Recap 1- When on the Offense:
*
(Double Fairing is doing two forward aerial attacks in one short hop)
(SHFFFair is an acronym for Short Hop Fast Fall Forward aerial attacks)
(Air control is moving forwards and backwards while in midair)
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(two or three damage extra damage every 3 hits or so can help land a K.O. in one less hit, which can be very crucial in some matches)
(Juggling, or a juggle trap is repeatedly hitting your opponent into the air, usually by using an auto-canceled Uair into another Uair, Dancing Blade, Utilt, Usmash, or Uthrow, so they cannot land)
(a cross-up is landing behind your opponent with an attack. Usually, you cross up aerials, but running past your opponent and attacking can also be considered a cross-up)
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(An anti-air attack would be a move like Bowser or R.O.B.s ftilt, where it is very difficult to approach the opponent from the air since they have a fast move with lots of reach and priority)
(A move that has high priority and invincibility, used to beat out aerial approaches, such as Marth, Mario, DK, and MK's UpB)
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(a move that is safe on block means you won't get punished for hitting a shield with it. There are a few exceptions. For instance, a dragon punch can punish even moves that are normally safe on block.
(Pivoting is turning around in place and performing an attack. It can be tricky to perform.)
(basically, if you're facing right, and pressing down to do a dtilt, you move the stick to left, then down again, and then quick execution of the attack. If done properly, you shouldn't even see Marth rise . . . I think)
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(DB1 is the first hit of Dancing Blade, Marth's sideB)
cool-down lag is the time it takes for you to do another action after you use an attack.
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(To shield stab is to hit an exposed part of your opponent's hurtbox (the part of your opponent that you can hit) even while they are shielding)
I'm not going to cover how to offensively edgeguard your opponent right now, because this is just basics. Perhaps one day, I'll have a change of heart and include it.
Recap 2 - When on the defense:
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(In a nutshell, spacing is basically positioning yourself in a good position to attack your opponent, and keeping yourself out of reach from being hit.)
(Zoning is controlling an area on the playing field by threatening it with your attack range. Marth generally zones with his fair, and it's dangerous for your opponent to be in the area where Marth can Fair them.)
When playing defensively, Marth usually doesn't aim to hit his opponent. Keep in mind that you still need to connect hits on your opponent, knock them off the stage, and prevent them from recovering to take away stocks, but when playing defensively, the methods used to score these hits are different. Playing defensively is sometimes referred to as camping, and is something Marth does very well. However, if you want to play this way, come prepared with a lot of patience. Against opponents that camp you back, these matches will take very long. It's a required style against many top level players, and certain characters, so buckle up.
Generally, one initiates zoning by reducing the distance between themselves and their opponent partially, but not completely. Marth should leave enough space so that his opponent cannot hit him with anything fast enough that he can't react to with his shield. Once in position, Marth should use Fair, Nair , some dtilt, some retreated shield breaker, a tiny drop of ftilt, and a little bit of Dancing Blade, to make it very hard for his opponent to approach him. Make sure to mix in full hops appropriately.
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(Even though Marth has the best Fair in the game, it's still better to land a fresh ftilt on your opponent than trade aerials, especially when you're at higher %, or your opponent is heavier.
A move with transcended priority NEVER clashes. The hitbox doesn't interact with other hitboxes, so you cannot use it to block attacks, or even fan projectiles. Fast moves with transcended priority are useful for winning against your opponent's high priority attacks, as transcended attacks are ALWAYS disjointed, but they lose to faster attacks, and attacks that out-range them.
Both Marth's jab and Dancing Bladecome out on frame 4. The game uns at 60 frames per second, so a move that comes out on frame 4 hits in 1/15th of a second.
A move is "retreated" when you jump or move backwards while performing it.
From here, you want to take control of the center of the stage if you're not already there. This is important, because it allows you the space to retreat if needed, and more importantly, it reduces the space for your opponent to retreat. Your advancements should be small and patient, and in tune with your opponent's retreats and advancements. Occasionally, you'll be facing an opponent with equal or greater defensive options, so causing them to retreat will be a difficult task which will require patience, and calculated approaches, which will not be elaborate. Running or walking up and shielding, is also useful tactic, because it allows you to begin zoning closer to your opponent, and can force them backwards if your spacing and attacks are good. However, it should not be used too often. If someone predicts that you are going to shield, they can adjust their spacing accordingly and damage your shield for free, or simply grab you and take a large amount of control.
Let's note that even though you are trying to slowly advance, you can still retreat if it's necessary. Remember, a good opponent is going to be using their tactics against you as well, and you aren't going to be able to stop everything without giving up any room. Rolling backwards is okay to do as well. Giving up space is okay if it helps you to avoid getting hit, which would cost you more space anyway.
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(DS OOS is an acronym Marth players use to refer to Dolphin Slash Out Of Shield). It is basically using Marth's Dragon Punch from his shield, so he can go from a state of shielding, to invincibility, to attacking, allowing him to repel almost all attacks that hit his shield, exceptions being those attacks with tremendous range like King Dedede's ftilt, attacks that also serve as escapes like G&W's UpB or Falco Phantasm, or projectiles.
(Jump Canceling refers to the feature which allows you to stop shielding by jumping from the shield, instead of simply releasing the shield. It's slightly faster, and allows you to punish hitting your shield with aerials quickly.)
(Dolphin Slash is the name of Marth's UpB)
Eventually, you want to push your opponent to the ledge, or hit them off the stage. Once again, I'm not going to talk about edge-guarding, because this is just basics. I may include it someday.
And that concludes the basics. Now I'll be discussing what style you will probably find most effective against your opponent's characters.
