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Pikachu Secondary Poll
- Thread starter Hylian
- Start date
.
gallax
Smash Hero
thank you very much hylian. hes such a good guy.
and i asked for this so we could have an unbiased and quantitative opinion as to what the community thinks who the best would be. this way we could unbiasedly say snake or zamus or DK would be the best choice and etc.. would be the second best etc...
and i asked for this so we could have an unbiased and quantitative opinion as to what the community thinks who the best would be. this way we could unbiasedly say snake or zamus or DK would be the best choice and etc.. would be the second best etc...
Ussi
Smash Legend
My opinion.. whoever handles the 35/65+ matches the best is your best bet... 65/35 is Marth and G&W for sure, and maybe MK... Snake handles all 3 the best out of the 3 choices, as Snake is one of the very very few who can argue 55-45 against Marth, considered the best choice to fight MK, and counters G&W.
Other match ups that are 40/60 to 50/50 despite annoying are still possible to win as Pikachu if you know the match up well enough since its still majority skill based.
Other match ups that are 40/60 to 50/50 despite annoying are still possible to win as Pikachu if you know the match up well enough since its still majority skill based.
Van Jones
Smash Lord
Yeah. I'm going to go with none of the above.
KuroKitt10
Smash Journeyman
QFT. I think that's about all that needs to be said.
It would have been nice to be able to rank the options, though, rather than just vote for the "best" option.
Mew.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I put DK since he is 50-50 with both Marth and G&W, and IMO DK has to work less hard against them. MK is weird, but i can get out of tornado decently well, so i don't have to worry about getting gang ***** by that.
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Nice Hylian. I'm actually surprised you got involved, but it's good you did.
Some of the Pikas on our board note that they struggle against ROB. I do not. Perhaps it's because I have immense ROB experience due to one of my best friends, Toasty, maining him, and ROB flooding most tournaments I attend.
If you are like me, you don't worry about the ROB match-up. Thus, Snake is your best choice since he won't help you against ROB but will help tremendously against Marth, GW, and even MK.
DK and ZSS are very close. ZSS goes about even with Marth and GW. So does DK. They both do about the same against MK. Hard to call that one.
Some of the Pikas on our board note that they struggle against ROB. I do not. Perhaps it's because I have immense ROB experience due to one of my best friends, Toasty, maining him, and ROB flooding most tournaments I attend.
If you are like me, you don't worry about the ROB match-up. Thus, Snake is your best choice since he won't help you against ROB but will help tremendously against Marth, GW, and even MK.
DK and ZSS are very close. ZSS goes about even with Marth and GW. So does DK. They both do about the same against MK. Hard to call that one.
KuroKitt10
Smash Journeyman
These characters are primarily the result of the discussion that went on in another thread in which they were generally deemed the best choices for seconds for a Pikachu main based on analyzing various match-ups.
Mreow.
Why not Snake who has a solid advantage over Marth and G&W?
gallax
Smash Hero
hylian got involved because i sent him a private message and asked him to put up this poll for me. we met at FAST so i was almost 100% sure he would do it.
Van Jones
Smash Lord
Marth. IMO, he takes care of the problems that Pika has.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Big glaring weakness to MK :\
Van Jones
Smash Lord
Well, MK is MK. Like Stealth said, I believe that Pika does well enough against MK. Even so, I actually feel more comfortable fighting MK with Marth or Diddy than I do with anyone else. Between Pika and Marth, I believe that all match up basis are covered.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Well that is you being comfortable with Pika/Marth. I believe we are looking for the statistical best 2ndary :\
IMO I would go Pikachu/DK cause DK suits my playstyle better however Snake does overall better than DK in doing better than DK in the said match ups.
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Marth is a good choice. If you feel comfortable using Pikachu against MK, I can understand why you'd go with Marth.
ZZS and DK aren't random choices thrown into the mix. They do fairly well against Pika's counters.
gallax
Smash Hero
there was quite a bit of discussion to pick those chars. we do have two other chars in the mix that are being discussed, but they are more of a specialdary than secondary.
I'll put a list of 4 recommended secondaries and 1-2 specialdaries for pikachu and a brief synopsis on the other thread once we finish the discussion. This is allows us to choose whichever secondary best fits our needs/playstyle. We all don't have to have the same secondary. My list allows for personal preferences to help decide your secondary.
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
Ok, I know this is going to sound kind of mean, but I say this with lots of <4 for everyone.
What Im trying to figure out and have been silently laughing about for the past few days is why the heck we're discussing secondaries and their matchups when theres still a ton of questions about pikas matchups. And oddly those questions have been ignored when theyre coming from the likes of K Prime and Stealth Raptor.
I understand that the pika boards want to keep up with the content other boards are creating, but honestly I dont even bother reading stuff here anymore because it feels like its of the same poor quality that the other boards have as well. And I have a strong hunch Im not the only person who believes that. There really should have been a heavy focus on quality over quantity, and discussion on how to do this. It's not like there arent 10 pikas in the chatroom at any given time to discuss this.
Now I understand that theres been a strong effort to try and organize the boards, and its been a very good effort, but you can rearrage poop into the tower of pizza and itll still be poop. Most of these things arent unrelated, there shouldve been some sort of plan about organizing these things in the first place so that one can lead into the other.
<3
ClobberinTime
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2007
- Messages
- 24
Tagxy-I usually just read stuff but I'd like you to know I agree with you-it's interesting that we are focusing so heavily on secondaries when not all matchups for Pika have been covered. Perhaps the ones already covered are the only ones that need to have counters figured out, I don't know, because I don't play enough good people who are good at a variety of characters, so I get mainstream stuff, but still...
If that made any sense =/
If that made any sense =/
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Tag- we have a good idea of what the match-up stats are for each of Pikachu's match-ups.
It is known that Marth, GW, and MK give Pikachu the most trouble. What exactly is it that you are questioning?
It is known that Marth, GW, and MK give Pikachu the most trouble. What exactly is it that you are questioning?
Sigh...Tag....
I'm trying to be proactive to generate some discussion on the pika boards. You are correct. We are no where close to finishing discussing matchups, but pika's hardest matchups (65:35 or greater) are obvious, and we need to find counters for them. The main reason for this thread is to provide a legit answer to all our newer players who ask what pikachu's best secondary is. I've seen that question posted many times in multiple threads. Its been asked quite a few times in my Q&A thread too.
Can you stop whining like a little baby? Unless you actually are doing something, don't complain how other people are doing it. * I don't see you contributing anything useful to discussions nor have I seen you provide quality material to discuss. *I've set up a stage discussion thread, Q&A + FAQ thread, a Board Directory Thread, and a Secondary discussion thread. Don't tell my my stuff is poor quality, unless you can prove it.
You're complaining that we don't have qualtiy threads, but you want to have a discussion on how to discuss things? Lolz...So much for useful threads.
Way to bandwagon all the smash n00bs =)
Thank you for calling all my hard work poop. I would like to say that your threads have been highly influential to pika's metagame, but I can't seem to find any to back up my point.
Of course these things aren't unrelated. They are all related to pikachu, duh. What's your plan for organizing all these things? Apparently my plan is a tower of pizza made of poop. I'd like to hear your ideas.
Alright I guess everyone who have these negative comments should have put forth their 2 cents in the secondary discussion if they are just unsatisfied with what we came up with. We discussed it for a week.
Interesting results so far, not too surprised to see Snake take up the lead though.
Interesting results so far, not too surprised to see Snake take up the lead though.
Zylar
Smash Ace
The reason I'm not inputing my opinion is because I've never been to a tourney ;_; thus I have very little say on anything. (I find it better to hold my tounge, even though I'm not right now. *shrugg*)
I did vote though. Went for the more logical choise imo, lol! (:
I am learning about many things. :D
I actually like all of this discussion, even if that means there are less threads being active.
I did vote though. Went for the more logical choise imo, lol! (:
I am learning about many things. :D
I actually like all of this discussion, even if that means there are less threads being active.
KuroKitt10
Smash Journeyman
I pretty much agree with everything Zylar said here.
K2 - and any of the more prominent Pikaboard organizers - Are there things that people like Zylar and I can do to really help out the Pikaboards, even though we don't attend tournaments or don't really play many different higher level players?
Me personally, All I play with right now is a few of my friends - I don't even have a copy of Brawl, I just play with my friend's copy. I would like to change this in the future, but as it is now, I'm very limited in the sort of work I can do; however, I would still love to help out the Pikaboards in ANY way possible.
Meow.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
try to participate in the threads as you have been doing, especially the matchup threads. basically what you have been doing now.
gallax
Smash Hero
wtf. i mean seriously. i hate people who say things like tagzy or w/e his name is. we are trying to help out the community. you are hating us for an honorable attempt at trying to help out smash players who have trouble beating another character with pika. we are HELPING. wtf are you doing?!!!!! huh? nothin except, LIKE YOU SAID, sitting back and not commenting. well how about this. piss off. telling me that our discussions about matchups isn't worthwhile.
and K @...thank you for updating your thread with the secondaries and specialdaries. i promise you i will be finishing my matchups soon.
and K @...thank you for updating your thread with the secondaries and specialdaries. i promise you i will be finishing my matchups soon.
stevensteve
Smash Cadet
Why must Pikachu secondary be limited to 3 characters?
Don't worry. I only went to my first tourney a month ago. Contribute any experience you have at all, as long as you don't play computers. For example, if your friend's a marth main, try to contribute to the marth matchup threads by telling up his favorite tricks. Any experience is helpful. For stage discussions, its just a matter of playing on the stage enough to understand its mechanics and any "tricks" you can do on that stage.
Just contribute anything you can, no matter how small or insignificant. You might be like me. I went to my first tourney earlier this year, which is almost 10 months after the game came out. Just be patient and a tourney might spring up near where you live.
I'll write up the specialdaries and secondaries later today. Its a snow day, so I'll have plenty of time to do it.
Read the other thread. We had a discussion as to what pikachu's best secondaries are and those three characters we discussed to be the best ones.
ClobberinTime
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2007
- Messages
- 24
Sorry. I guess I was a little rude. I guess I take the things people post on here for granted and kind of ignore the effort put into them most of the time.
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
I was hoping you guys wouldnt take this the wrong way and couldve done without the personal attacks, especially to the new people here. I am in no way hating on anyone, the genuine effort by some of the people here has been great. However, I couldve just said job well done and continued to ignore this even if I felt the opposite, Im being critical in order to help improve things. However as requested (and I intended to do) you do deserve something more specific.
First, Pikachus hardest matchups have not been obvious. I wont debate the point here since it was already brought up in the other thread and in my last post.
Second, that 30:70, 50:50, 90: 10 system of rating character matchups is trash. I know it wasnt the pika boards that came up with it, but its a confused system. The ratios seemed like they were attempting to actually rank matchups, but the numbers are somewhat arbitrarily picked. And to top of off no one know what the actual numbers even mean. How does someone decide if a matchup is 60 or 65, or 61, 62, 63, 64 for that matter? And does this mean pikachu has a 30% chance of winning vs X character, or a 30% chance given the same skill level?
A better alternative would be to get 5 or 6 of the games top pika players and have them create something similar to a tier list. You might have a hard time finding if Pikachu has a 40 or 35 (whatever that means) fighting MK, but Im sure you could say that he's harder to fight then a snake. Create a list from top to bottom then create "tiers" with strong advantage/disadantage, advantage/disadvantage, and neutral.
Third, while the pikachu matchup threads are very helpful, they could use a compliment. Even if playing against different characters requires adjustment and useful tips, for the most part a pikas playstyle is very similar regardless of who they play. Part of the reason its hard to contribute to match-up threads is because repeating the same strategy in each thread seems repetitive and the adjustments to the matchup have already been stated. I know a decent amount about pikas, but what would be really helpful is information from X character on how they fight us since theyll probably have lots to tell us that we dont know. I know we tend to go to other character boards and ask them to come here, but it might be better to create a thread on their board and have them discuss how they fight pikas and for us to ask questions so we know what to look for and how to counter, then just link to it from a master thread over here. That way we can be better informed of what to expect and have a better idea of the advantages and disadvantages with their perspective.
From there we can talk about secondaries and which ones might be best. When I say these are all related I dont mean they all tie back to pikachu, I mean that screwing up one screws up the rest down the line. K2 you correctly stated that finding the best secondaries deserves a legit answer and I completely agree, which is why I decided to say something.
First, Pikachus hardest matchups have not been obvious. I wont debate the point here since it was already brought up in the other thread and in my last post.
Second, that 30:70, 50:50, 90: 10 system of rating character matchups is trash. I know it wasnt the pika boards that came up with it, but its a confused system. The ratios seemed like they were attempting to actually rank matchups, but the numbers are somewhat arbitrarily picked. And to top of off no one know what the actual numbers even mean. How does someone decide if a matchup is 60 or 65, or 61, 62, 63, 64 for that matter? And does this mean pikachu has a 30% chance of winning vs X character, or a 30% chance given the same skill level?
A better alternative would be to get 5 or 6 of the games top pika players and have them create something similar to a tier list. You might have a hard time finding if Pikachu has a 40 or 35 (whatever that means) fighting MK, but Im sure you could say that he's harder to fight then a snake. Create a list from top to bottom then create "tiers" with strong advantage/disadantage, advantage/disadvantage, and neutral.
Third, while the pikachu matchup threads are very helpful, they could use a compliment. Even if playing against different characters requires adjustment and useful tips, for the most part a pikas playstyle is very similar regardless of who they play. Part of the reason its hard to contribute to match-up threads is because repeating the same strategy in each thread seems repetitive and the adjustments to the matchup have already been stated. I know a decent amount about pikas, but what would be really helpful is information from X character on how they fight us since theyll probably have lots to tell us that we dont know. I know we tend to go to other character boards and ask them to come here, but it might be better to create a thread on their board and have them discuss how they fight pikas and for us to ask questions so we know what to look for and how to counter, then just link to it from a master thread over here. That way we can be better informed of what to expect and have a better idea of the advantages and disadvantages with their perspective.
From there we can talk about secondaries and which ones might be best. When I say these are all related I dont mean they all tie back to pikachu, I mean that screwing up one screws up the rest down the line. K2 you correctly stated that finding the best secondaries deserves a legit answer and I completely agree, which is why I decided to say something.
KuroKitt10
Smash Journeyman
From what I understand, the numbers are simply representing approximate level of difficulty in the form of ratio's. The numbers themselves don't actually represent any concrete value, but the ratio as a whole is attempting to describe a skewing of relative "power" between the two characters. I do agree, however, that I think the boards as a whole should come up with a standardized isomorphism of the current fraction system. The numbers do not reprisent anything concrete, and I really think it would be a good idea to replace them with something more accurate, such as: "Equal", "Nearly Equal" (slightly in one's favor or another), "In <character>'s favor", and "Heavily In <character>'s Favor". As far as I can tell, this is all the fractions are really saying anyway, so why not be more clear about it?
I actually really wish the Brawl Community would find a better method of relating relative strength than tiers. One thing that bothers me about tiers, is that they give the illusion that one character is "better" than the one below it, and vice versa. Not only does this do a terrible job of taking into account match-ups, but my main beef with it is that it doesn't provide any room for two or more characters to be relatively "equal" in strength. I couldn't propose a better system at the moment, but I do know that anything that looks like tiers has a lot of analytical issues with it and I really wish the community could get together and come up with something more efficient and accurate.
I think this is a really good idea. Posting on the other forums is a much more efficient way of getting feed back from the reverse end of things. Assuming no one minds, I think I'll hop on the ZSS forums and the Zelda forums, and start a thread for each - considering those are who we're on right now. Also, I think it would be great in the Match-Up thread, to post both the links to OUR Analysis of the match up AS WELL as links to THEIR analysis of the match-up. This way a pika-player can take a look at both sides of the coin and have a much stronger idea of what to expect.
This I disagree strongly with. One thing that's so tough about nailing down Smash Bros games, and brawl in particular, is that everything really depends on everything else. There isn't really a great starting point; No matter where we start, we're still going to have to go back and revise as we learn more. I think it's important to be thinking and considering ALL aspects of the game at the same time, not just one small area.
Those are my two cents.
Meow!
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
I was going to add in my other post that I didnt mind the old system of ranking matchups as strong advantage/disadvantage, advantage/disadvantage, and neutral but didnt want it to get too long. Still, I can see that the reason people want to assign a number is to be able to rank the matchups from top to bottom. I can also see the use in that. IMO the best way to do that is not to randomly assign subjective numbers, but to rank the characters in relation to one another in so far as how they match up against pika. What we'd end up with is something similar to a tier list, and essentially any character in a given "tier" would be an equally easy, hard, or neutral matchup with minor differences. I wont argue the merits of the brawl tier list here, only that a variation of this system would be helpful in ranking pikas matchups by comparing them to one another.
Wow, Tag, do we hate each other or what? XD
First off, do you even know what you are talking about? Your posts gives me the impression that you want to sound intelligent, but you really have no idea of what you are talking about. If you want to whine about how the matchup system fails, go somewhere else and complain about it. The numbers are very clear in what they mean. If you ever participated in matchup discussion threads, the numbers would be as clear as to what they stand for. You do realize its impossible to create a tier list of matchups UNTIL YOU HAVE DISCUSSED ON THE MATCHUPS, right? I'm sure we will create a list (if your not smart enough to read numbers) of matchups in order of difficulty once we finish discussing matchups, which is what we are trying to accomplish now.
Pikachu's hardest matchups are VERY clear. You either don't play pikachu very often and you're just not current with our metagame, or you're just trying to annoy the heck out of me (and its working, congrats).
If you do anything, stop complaining and do something about it. You realize the matchup system isn't going to change by arguing with me, right?
Omg...wow...
Once we decide on pikachu's best secondaries, we can always change it as the metagame developes. The pikaboards (excluding you, I might add) have come up with 4-5 decent secondaries for pikachu that covers his worst bad matchups. If we come across a character that gives pikachu more trouble, or a character that is better suited as a secondary, I can always revise it. If we discuss secondaries when we finish matchups, it could be near the end of the year before we finish it.
So please, stop arguing. You are getting no where, and your wasting my time.