Instant Full Hopped Shine (IFHS) (Video + Applications) Update 2/1/09

Before we continue let me just say that IFHS does have actual uses in a competitive match. I will highlight three here (mindgames aside).

1. Edgeguarding
2. Snake's Mortar Slide (or reflecting/evading any projectile that is shot at you. Especially if being pressured on the edge by projectiles i.e. Snake/Diddy)
3. Strategies on the ledge

Update 2/01/09
-Added some more videos and applications of Falco's IFHS. Check them out below. I believe you can tell more of what's going on. Bad quality but hey, I'm not getting much help from others, so I've got to lone wolf it all myself. Here they are below.

IFHS- Out of shield
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6ojmEBj-8&feature=channel_page
IFHS- IFHS on lower platform to Aerial to laser to grab
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJwT1Ri-vM&feature=channel_page

Update 1/31/09
-More accurate image of "Shine-hopping" on the ledge. Check it out below.

Before you judge, I suggest you watch this video. (Bad quality, but it was the best I could do)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUALsW-pr4&feature=channel_page

Changed naming to Instant Full Hopped Shine. I think people refer to full hops more than full jumps so since people use (FH sometimes), so we'll go with that.

I believe I have a Down-B (Reflector) tactic that, if its known, it certainly is not utilized much. I did do a search beforehand on the various AT and Falco guides and I did not find anything. If someone is really interested in reproducing this with better quality I can send them a .bin format file containing the save.

Keep in mind that anything with Falco's reflector cannot be spammed in a competitive match, or people will catch on.

Now, what does this do, you ask? It allows you to perform the reflector without the ground lag associated with it. Now granted, you are semi-vulnerable in the air while using it, but it shouldn't be spammed either way. Ok here are some details pertaining to it:

-You are jumping (full jump not shorthopping) and performing Down B simultaneously. There is a noticable difference when you compare it to simply normal jumping Down B to insta-jumping Down B. You should be propelled into the air with reflector coming out immediately with no noticeable lag upon landing.

-It is best to map the jump button to L (atleast in my experience) similar to IAP (Instant Aerial Phantasm) and is probably performed similar to IAP, except you are using DownB instead of Side B. The jump button, Down on the control stick and B (special) are all pressed instantly (roughly)

-This "tech" takes some skill, and timing to get down, and if you mess up the combination, you are likely to suicide or side B off the stage.

If you are doing this correctly, you should be able to perform an Aerial attack or laser/silent laser before hitting the ground. Instant Full jumped reflector---> aerial/airdodge/laser (for instance). Compared with using regular jump (or shorthopping) and reflector, there is noticeable landing lag after using DownB and you can't aerial or laser...you are met with lag on the ground.

Some of you have probably noticed that using the reflector works with your momentum in the air, and you can steer yourself depending on which way you are headed. I can perform two of these momentum guided-reflectors (from the center of FD) putting me off the stage on in which I can phantasm back on (keep in mind that also uses up your jumps). But that's not all.

Ledgehogging/Grabbing to Insta-Down B to Phantasm

I apologize if my use of smash lingo is incorrect, I'm not a regular and don't play competitively at all. If this isn't widely known (I haven't heard much about it after searching smashboards or youtube), I wanted to explain the mechanics behind this. You can use the same button combination above to perform Down B thus insta-shining while grabbing the ledge afterwards.

-If you are doing this right you should popup a little from the ledge after you performed the shine and momentum would put you back onto the ledge. This shine hits people camping relatively close to the edge (needs more testing ofcourse). So basically you could do this indefinitely on the ledge if you got the timing right ----ledgeshine----ledgeshine repeatedly.

-You can use ledgehopped reflector---> momentum backwards---phantasm---back on the ledge to vary your ledge game a bit. If your timing is correct you can either grab the ledge or make it back to the stage doing this. Also works with firebird of course.

- Now if this is done incorrectly, you will most certainly fall to your doom, so there are some risks and it takes some practice to nail the timing, but it helps mix up your game.

In the photo below, I performed a ledgehopped shine (pressing jump and Down B simultaneously on the ledge) where the momentum carried me upward. After the conclusion of the move I would regrab the edge.

You can also shift your momentum off the edge and use a phantasm or firebird to get on the edge/stage, but it's hard to depict with a picture.

This could be coined shine-hopping, as Falco is using IFHS to perform the shine on the edge with the momentum pushing him back up. In the photo below, this is what you should look like when you perform IFHS on the edge, pushing your momentum away from the ledge.



Some Applications to the above techs

Now with the applications listed below, the reflector doesn't necessarily have to hit your foe, but the attacks listed are good follow-ups regardless.

-Instant Full jumped shine (abbreviated) IFHS to Dair
-IFHS to Bair
-IFHS to Nair
-IFHS to Laser/silent laser (can only get 1 off I believe)
-IFHS to aerial phantasm

-Using IFHS to navigate the stage/get behind opponents
-Potential footstool when using
-IFHS to reflector (punishable if shieldgrabbed)
-U-throw to IFHS
-It CAN be fastfalled at the end of the move

-Fall/jump off the stage and use the momentum bounce of IFHS to get back to the stage.
-Can edgeguard more effectively and bait mid-air opponents attempting to recover

The IFHS is best to hit people with in mid-air as it does not reach grounded opponents.

This photo below is the best proof I can offer at the moment.


If you notice, there is an invisible puddle near Falco signifying that he's used up his double jump. Now I jumped first to show you that I am executing a jump and down B simultaneously. In this example, jumping first then performing the move is not advised...as you'll lose your second jump.

So there we go, I wouldn't want to go out and give a detailed explanation if its not necessary. There is nothing too advanced about this move, but like I said, it helps to mix up Falco's game...and perhaps get a little more use out of his reflector.

So I still don't get the difference between this and just, well, jumping and using the shine... the shine ends before Falco finishes his fullhop if you start it fast enough, I guess? Is there any more to it than that?

The video doesn't help clarify anything, you can't see Falco during the technique at all.

Yes, the shine ends before Falco reaches the ground, that in itself gives you a whole lot more options. If one will be willing to fool around with this, perhaps they could upload a better quality video.

If you jump/full hop the shine typically, you cannot perform and aerial or anything else before reaching the ground.

EDIT: I've never been able to just jump normally then shine and perform and aerial, because the Falco's momentum carries him downwards to the ground. Similar to where you try to use a shine off the ledge normally, you will fall to your doom.

why would this ever be a better option than SHL's? if you say that it's because SHL's are predictable and they will be expecting it, then you're ******** since expecting and planning to dodge/shield a laser would cause them to dodge/shield this w/o even knowing it was coming.

you could SHDL twice in the time it takes you to FH this,

if you say this has tripping follow-up possibilities you are also ********, a FH takes way too long to come back down, they will have stood up and be waiting for you by then.

I swear we went over this before and you failed to give a good reason then, and you are still failing to give that good reason now.

at long range SHL's > FJIS
at close range SH/FH Dair/Bair > FJIS
at mid range FJIS is still bad

LHshine has been known and used occasionally

I love how I knew j4pu's post was going to be something spirit breaking or doubtful before I even read it.

Its not that bad as a surprise but it should only be used seldomly. I like the creativity, keep it up.

a pretty cool surprise attack i guess. otherwise, other options seem better. spamming this would be just as bad as spamming it on the ground.

Some additional thoughts.

Personally, I think IFJS works well as an approach or retreat. You can perform a retreating IFJS to laser, to SHDL to approach. Not to mention you can change direction in mid-air if you feel like it to mix things up.

Furthermore, I'm curious how IFJS will work as an edgeguard. You can fall off the stage perform the shine, and use the momentum to get back to the stage. I know you can't grab the edge after doing this, but you drift back on stage (there's a little lag upon landing). I don't know the properties of Falco's shine on certain characters recoveries such as Fox, Wolf, Falco or Pikachu (non-gliders and flyers) so I don't know if it stops them in their tracks, if timed properly.

Also, I wonder how this will work on Snake's Mortar Slide. You can perform the shine and perhaps meet Snake on the ground for an aerial. Though I'm not sure of the reflective properties of Falco's shine and Snake's mortar.

Mindgames. Yeah everything can be used for this purpose but, I'm talking about being the on the edge in particular. You perform a ledgehopped shine, let's say the opponent shields it. They now have to guess if you are going to either 1) Return to the edge with phantasm 2)Return to the edge with Firebird, or 3) Return to the stage with phantasm. Granted I've been able to return to the stage with Firebird, but that's not a safe method.

This doesn't have to be all about the laser game. If an opponent sees you camping and constantly SHDLing...they are going to approach. Period. I'm talking about incorporating this with aerials as well. Now the video wasn't the best example because yeah the quality was poor and there were no human opponents involved.

I like the potential this has from hanging off the edge. This is good to know.

The_Prince said:

a pretty cool surprise attack i guess. otherwise, other options seem better. spamming this would be just as bad as spamming it on the ground.

Click to expand...

I don't baby egos.
If something seems like a blatantly bad idea to me I will make it clear as day that I think so to everybody else, if you take it personally, well that's your problem.

I don't believe I insulted you personally once, just this tactic.
although I did point out that we already talked about the flaws this had and you didn't have any answers to why this would replace another option, and I still don't see that here, so that was like you ignore the logic of the situation = bad on your part.

EDIT-

Zanthos25 said:

how this will work on Snake's Mortar Slide.

Click to expand...

Situational use, I like it
hits snake, reflects mortar which makes it unsafe for snake to stand there and await your return to the ground, and it allows you to DI away while in cooldown lag

I assume your addressing me, J4pu?

Yes this has flaws, but everything else does. It's not meant to be spammed and doesn't work well with platforms but it just another option for Falco. Did you address the potential ledgegame when using this? If anything it might be more effective off stage than on (or waiting for an opponent to recover).

Secondly, I don't remember ever discussing this with you, as I just joined smashboards. My post count is only 6, after all.

somebody else then brought this (FHshine OoS) up very recently in the Q&A thread.
Sorry for thinking that was you.

my current only use for shine other than reflecting things is to "infinite" Ike when he's trying to recover with his UpB and continuously fails to barely reach stage height, reflector pushes him back down, then he tries again. (grounded shine)

I like creative thinking, but every time a creative useless idea comes up it doesn't need to have a thread made about it.

btw I liked the idea of using this against mortar slide.

Just suggesting, set your X to Specials if you want to perform this more easily. I use Y to jump personally, and you can press Y and X in a wavelike motion to perfectly buffer specials from a jump.

A2ZOMG has a good point. Personally I just use L with down B at once. so don't take my word for it, I don't play competitively, so surely others have more input on what buttons combos are easier to pull off.

In regards to "buffering specials from a jump" laser can also be used with a similar button combination as shine, but to me, it leaves you more vulnerable since the upwards bounce is not as great. Not to mention your momentum shift from doing so is less. For instance if you try to buffer a full-jumped laser off the edge, I don't think you'll make it back. At least, not without using firebird. If you buffer full jumped shine, the momentum return is enough for you to perform shine below the edge after falling off and make it back to the stage (albeit with a little lag on landing).

A similar effect is given if you buffer some full-jumped aerials. With Falco, using Nair (seemed the easiest to do to me).

Anyways, about naming...

I suggest referring to it as an acronym because it has more uses than other specials performed while using this method. For instance, people don't use IAF (Instant Aerial Firebird) or atleast, refer to it as often because of its uses. Ok, maybe people might use it sometimes, but certainly not as often as IAP.

Before we continue let me just say that IFJS does have actual uses in a competitive match. I will highlight three here (mindgames aside).

1. Edgeguarding
2. Snake's Mortar Slide (or reflecting/evading any projectile that is shot at you)
3. Strategies on the ledge

I use "instant" because the button combination must be inputted simultaneously. (This also goes in line with IAP, though the timing might be slightly different).

Fullhopped/Full Jumped is refering to the fact that Falco is at the top of his animation when performing a normal jump. Anything regarding to "full/long" jumps doesn't seem to be used much in Brawl or at least refered to as often as "shorthopping".

Or you can remove the acronym and just call it a buffered shine or something of the like. Though this is not as descriptive.

In my opinion, IFHS rolls off the tongue better, but maybe its just me. If you use IFHS or IFJS people would probably know what you're talking about.

IFHS= Instant Full-Hopped Shine
IFJS= Instant Full Jumped Shine
ILJS or ILHS (L= Long)
(jumped and hopped referring to the same thing)


FJS/FHS= Full Jumped/Hopped Shine (This might be misleading because like I said earlier, if you perform a full-jump then shine, you are met with lag on the ground).

Shine Edgeguard = Using IFJS off the stage and using the momentum/DI (how ever its referred to) from doing so to get back. I'm most curious on how this will work being performed below the edge to catch some recoveries.

Ledgehopped Shine or Ledge Shine = Using the button input of IFJS to perform a "ledge hop" on the edge of the stage while performing the shine.

Has anyone tried this out on Snake's mortar slide? Granted, a stage like Final Destination or Smashville would work best. Seems like it would be effective, but who knows until you test.

I can see this being useful against FH lovers (Pit, MK...), or as a good options from the ledge when an opponent is standing on a platform.

This is not really new, but I must admit that I never use that in match ^^ I should try to find some uses for that in my game ^^

Let me just mention that it's going to be referred as IFHS from now on (Instant Full-Hopped Shine). The general concenus is that people use FH as an abbreviation for "full-hopped" so we'll go with that. Where I said IFJS previously I mean IFHS. It's the same thing, just a different abbreviation.

Potential "stall" against the IC'S? Since their grab game is so devastating, you want to avoid it at all costs.

You got your ledgehopped shine game that can strike them near the edge or on the first platform (Battlefield), along with trying to implement some other IFJS moves. I think this would be effective because (at least to my knowledge) the IC's aerials are not all that great.

EDIT: Ice Climbers will probably be approaching you with their ice blocks. Using shine in any other fashion will get you grabbed...which you don't want. If you are perfect shielding their ice blocks, they are most likely gaining an advantage and getting closer to you...which you also don't want.

You can also try messing around with IFJS on Rainbow Cruise or other moving stages for a sort of recovery during your double jump.

D-Throw to IFJS is a good setup, if the opponent has over 50% damage. If they aren't expecting it, they won't have time to airdodge the shine. Even if you miss, you can punish them with an aerial, or apply shield pressure.

I've been able to damage people on the ground using the shine and IFJS within grab range. Getting the spacing is tricky, and I've yet to hit with it consistantly, but its not a bad option Oos.

Pit and his guided arrows. If you are getting hammered by his arrows, I can see this working well.