Boosted Pivot Grabbing with Diddy: a Comprehensive Guide and Discussion (3/29/09)

Boosted Pivot Grabbing: Falco can do it, and so can you! Some of you have heard of it, and others haven't. Those who have tried to learn Falco have likely heard of it, as it is used in Falco's gameplay very effectively. However, despite Diddy having a relatively good Boosted Pivot Grab, it is almost absent in his current metagame. This thread is designed to compile the uses and strategies surrounding Diddy's Boosted Pivot Grab and to spark discussion of how to use it effectively. And most importantly, this thread is very open to input! This is the first of many revisions of this OP, and I will append it as more information is added.

Revisions

• 2/10/09 - Thread Started
• 2/10/09 - Added slippery trips use and the basic combos
• 3/18/09 - Added banana lock use, How do you do it? section, and generally cleaned up
• 3/29/09 - Added dash attack mindgames, banana trip tech chasing, punishing badly spaced short-ranged attacks, and the "length" of a Boosted Pivot Grab

What is a Boosted Pivot Grab?
To start things off, I know some of you haven't heard of Boosted Pivot Grabbing before. Boosted Pivot Grabbing is the canceling of a Dash Attack into a Pivot Grab, such that you slide while pivot grabbing (similar to the DACUS, or "Boosted Up Smash"). This is the OP for the tech, and it has videos and detailed explanations as to how to perform it:
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169086

After reading that, know that:

• Boosted Pivot Grabbing (continuing to slide in the direction you were facing while Boosted Pivot Grabbing) is also referenced as BPG;
• Reverse Boosted Pivot Grabbing (dashing in the direction you were not facing and then performing a BPG, thereby ending up facing the same direction you originally were) is also referenced as RBPG.

How do you do it?
One can perform a BPG or RBPG in many different ways depending on what controller you are using and what control setup you use. For this guide, all button sequences are assuming the default setup for the controller given. Input is welcome!

Gamecube Controller

• For all of these button combinations, note that you can replace Z (Grab) with R (Shield) and the C-Stick (Smash) with A (Attack) to achieve the same results. Try experimenting with the different button combinations to find what works best!
• (Note that the last three steps happen simultaneously):
  Dash Forwards > Forwards or Backwards on Control Stick + Down on C-Stick + Z Grab

How far does he slide?
Diddy's Boosted Pivot Grab slides him a good distance while grabbing, as can be seen at 1:30 of this video (from the OP above):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qark60PsIQ

For a more empirical answer, when done properly from the left side of Final Destination, he will slide to just in front of the left side of the middle diamond. I've prepared a video to demonstrate this; notice that you must time the Boosted Pivot Grab correctly, or it won't slide its maximum distance. It does take practice to get the muscle memory down pat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NRioYJxTeI


How does this help?
Because you continue to slide even after grabbing the opponent, this can be useful for moving an opponent out of a position they like or for pulling them towards the ledge to throw them off. There are other uses that I've not mentioned, and compiling that list is one of the goals of this thread! Another main benefit of Boost Pivot Grabbing is the following topic:


Boosted Pivot Grabs have a greater Grab length
This is the portion of the discussion that I want more input into before I post definitively about it. It is generally accepted that Boosted Pivot Grabs have greater length, but is it that much greater than a normal Grab for Diddy?

Is it better than a normal Grab?
It is generally accepted to be yes, but I don't know how to test it definitively.

If it is, how much better?
About an inch on the TV (results may very). (Thank you DFEAR)


That's all fine and great, but how do I incorporate it into my gameplay?
This is where the discussion will have the greatest impact: how do you use Boosted Pivot Grabs? What's the best time to use them? What setups are the most useful in performing one? Can it be part of a combo?

The following (hopefully growing) list are some examples:

• Basic Boosted Pivot Grab Combos
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6610607&postcount=5
  1. Jab Cancel > Boosted Pivot Grab
  2. D-Tilt > Boosted Pivot Grab
  3. Glide Toss > Boosted Pivot Grab
  These are the meat and potatoes of the Boosted Pivot Grab combos for Diddy; while the first two aren't true "combos," all of these can be used in place of standard Grab combos to utilize the Boosted Pivot Grab's slide in moving your opponent or for simply shaking things up when doing a lot of normal Grab combos. The last combo also goes well with the next utilization...
• Use when an opponent slides after tripping on a banana (AKA, Luigi)
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6608441&postcount=4
  In cases where throwing a banana at your opponent will make them slide too far away for a normal Grab, a Boosted Pivot Grab can catch up to your opponent thanks to its extra distance. This allows you to combo foes you normally couldn't chain after banana throws.
• Dash Attack > Reverse Boosted Pivot Grab
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219637
  When you Dash Attack an opponent, you can immediately Reverse Boost Pivot Grab them when they either
  1. Aren't hit very far by the Dash Attack (or anywhere at all) or are hit straight upwards,
  2. Shield the Dash Attack and you end up on their opposite side, or
  3. Spot Dodge the Dash Attack.
  In the first case, the opponent can escape this after a certain percent, but when this is mixed into other Dash Attack followups it is hard to see coming. Don't try this after ~35% to be safe.
• Banana Lock > Boosted Pivot Grab
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6603051&postcount=24
  So, you're banana locking your foe across the length of FD when you reach the end and have to make a decision: do I cartwheel and go for damage? do I throw another banana and make them fall off? do I run up and grab them? Another option you might not have thought about would be to run up and Boost Pivot Grab them! This will drag them all the way to the edge of the stage where you can then B-Throw them off for the most distance. Throw this into your 'Nana Lock game to keep your opponent guessing!
• Opponent Trips > Tech Chase
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6967303&postcount=18
  In an amazing turn of events, your opponent has somehow tripped and is now helpless on the floor. As rare as this event may be, knowing how to punish such a fortunate improbability is always a good thing. Of course, if you Glide Toss a banana into your foe, you can usually run up and grab then straight off; however, if they're too far away and manage to roll out of normal reach (or try to roll behind you), a BPG or RBPG can be useful in tech chasing your opponent when a normal grab just won't work. Now, if only you could make them trip
• Mindgames - Dash Attack Fake
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6967303&postcount=18 (and others)
  What seems to be the most agreed upon use for BPGs, using them to throw your opponent off when they're expecting a Dash Attack approach can be a great mindgame. If you've been doing a lot of Dash Attack approaches, then when they see you running, they may spot-dodge or shield. In the former case, some timing is required, but in both cases a BPG can be used to really shake up your opponent and leave them clueless as to how you'll approach. Because Diddy needed more mindgames
• Punishing Bad Spacing
  OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6968875&postcount=20
  When you're fighting an opponent who has fairly short range, using a BPG can be a good way to punish poor spacing. Because their reach is short, but because they're too far away to hit, the BPG's slide can be enough to grab them before their attack animation ends.
• More coming soon!

Now, this thread will not be complete unless the community contributes to it! So, what do you think is the best way to use Diddy's Boosted Pivot Grab? When do you use it? And, for those of you don't:

USE IT ALREADY!

could you use this after a grab release?
if so you could do a small "chain grab" on some characters

Kaptain Kong said:

could you use this after a grab release?
if so you could do a small "chain grab" on some characters

Click to expand...

From what I can tell after practicing against computers, this only works if the opponent shields directly after being grab-released, or if they walk/run towards you. The Boosted Pivot Grab takes you almost exactly to where the opponent is released, so if your opponent moves away from you at all, you'll miss. The main problem is that the lag after a grab-release is so great that the Boosted Pivot Grab is too slow against anyone but Ness and Lucas (but when it comes to them, a standard Grab-Release chain works fine) (it doesn't even work against them). So, unfortunately, this has limited use.

well now since u posted that thread i find it most useful when they trip a tad too far :3 and it helps grabbing slidy characters such as luigi since the extra inch in the grab reach is possible to grab him. :3 ty for that.

u can also
Dtilt to boost pivot grab

jab cancel to boost pivot grab

glide tose to boost pivot grab

jab cancel to boost pivot grab is giving me trouble for some god **** unknown reason i keep tripping T_T maybe im being horribly unlucky cuase it happened 8 times in a row and just said **** it :\ the dtilt one to me is most effective :3 and the glide toss one is better off as a combo finisher to set up yet another combo :3

DFEAR said:

well now since u posted that thread i find it most useful when they trip a tad too far :3 and it helps grabbing slidy characters such as luigi since the extra inch in the grab reach is possible to grab him. :3 ty for that.

Click to expand...

mastermiind said:

u can also
Dtilt to boost pivot grab

jab cancel to boost pivot grab

glide tose to boost pivot grab

Click to expand...

All are very effective uses; I'll add them now! Keep them coming!

Yeah we totally needed this because those naners were not broken enough

Down tilt and jab cancel-> boost pivotgrab isn't a combo... and why boost pivotgrab in those situations when you can just grab? :O (assuming they let you grab them)

DanGR said:

Down tilt and jab cancel-> boost pivotgrab isn't a combo... and why boost pivotgrab in those situations when you can just grab? :O (assuming they let you grab them)

Click to expand...

I don't like you.

DanGR said:

Down tilt and jab cancel-> boost pivotgrab isn't a combo... and why boost pivotgrab in those situations when you can just grab? :O (assuming they let you grab them)

Click to expand...

Because you continue to slide even after grabbing the opponent, this can be useful for moving an opponent out of a position they like or for pulling them towards the ledge to throw them off.

Click to expand...

They aren't combos? Let me test them again...

Ingulit said:

They aren't combos? Let me test them again...

Click to expand...

hahahahhahahaha

DanGR said:

Down tilt and jab cancel-> boost pivotgrab isn't a combo... and why boost pivotgrab in those situations when you can just grab? :O (assuming they let you grab them)

Click to expand...

looks and mindgames man

The dashattack to boosted pivot grabbing sounds nice, anyone knows if Diddy get a chaingrab with boostgrab airreleases (or maybe he just don´t forces airreleases)..

nah, we already tried, he cant do it even on lucas and ness

lol

maybe its cuz im a falco main but ive been doing this with diddy for a month now haha
what i like to do is dtilt rbpg and down throw behind me and set up for barrel spikes or Dair

idk works for me pretty well if anyone else wants to try it be my guest

Well, it's been a little over a month since this thread was updated, which I imagine is a month in which more uses have probably arisen! I've updated the OP with a very good and overlooked (on my part) use, added the OPs to the uses and topics, and have cleaned it up in general. The biggest change is that I've added a How do you do it? section to cover how to best perform a BPG or RBPG with each controller (with default setups). I really need community input for this one, because my muscle memory is stuck with the one posted! I'm also still trying to answer some of the original questions; so, to begin conversation:

1. How do/have you been using BPGs and RBPGs in your gameplay?
2. Does Diddy have more Grab length with his BPG over his normal Grab?
3. How useful do you think BPGs and RBPGs are at this stage in Diddy's metagame, if at all? Do they have potential?
4. What controller do you use?
5. With your controller, what do you think is the best way to BPG?

How do/have you been using BPGs and RBPGs in your gameplay?
Whenever an opponent expects a dash attack from me usually or after they roll from being tripped
Does Diddy have more Grab length with his BPG over his normal Grab?
yes but not by much really maybe an inch on the tv xD?
How useful do you think BPGs and RBPGs are at this stage in Diddy's metagame, if at all? Do they have potential?
its good for mindgames but nothing that drastic ya know. But i see potential
What controller do you use?
gamecube with tap jump off and x is grab (hate when Z would shield xD)
With your controller, what do you think is the best way to BPG?
well simply put ,just run past them and then smash the control stick the opposite way at the same time pressing grab. and u get a sliding boost pivot grab :3

Someone list all of the safest situations to pull off a reverse grab. I don't play enough to experiment, but it's a real good move to mix into your style. If someone knows safe/good situations to pull one off and get that extra percent list them please :]

I like to do it after conditioning them to dash attack approaches
I also like the RBPG to punish misspaced approaches. This has been working espcially well for me against characters with weak range.

lol i really need a gc, i can't do any of this stuff -.-

yes, i use wiichuk .-.

Lol Coyn I use Wiichuck and I do all of diddy's tricks perfectly.
It's easier if you set up your wiichuck to smash attack when you shake it in a certain direction ;-)
I'm only using the Wiichuck because my gc remote messed up so I had no choice to but to practice with it lol.

nice find....xD will learn tonight

For those who dont know, its much easier ( Imo ) to just run, pivot grab and press A at the same time

GodSon said:

Lol Coyn I use Wiichuck and I do all of diddy's tricks perfectly.
It's easier if you set up your wiichuck to smash attack when you shake it in a certain direction ;-)
I'm only using the Wiichuck because my gc remote messed up so I had no choice to but to practice with it lol.

Click to expand...

shake smash is too ********, i despise it quite frankly >___>

Random observation, I prefer to do this with R (shield) and C-Stick instead of Z. I also noticed that A can replace C-Stick just like R can replace Z while doing this. So you guys can mess around until you reach a comfort level.

To boost pivot grab, dont you have to be able to DAC too?

-NaPPy said:

To boost pivot grab, dont you have to be able to DAC too?

Click to expand...

For the "Boosted" Pivot Grabs, technically yes, you do. There is a difference in the length of the slide in a "Boosted" grab (AKA, DACing a pivot grab) and a running pivot grab, and you can begin the grabbing animation of a BPG out of a standing position faster than if you ran and pivot grabbed (You're in the process of sliding towards them as you begin to grab). Both can be used interchangeably in most situations, but yes, you have to DAC to BPG (yay acronyms!).

So, the general consensus seems to be using BPGs after conditioning an opponent to Dash Attack approaches; that will definitely be added, along with the trip tech-chasing.

Now, my question is in what matchups do you find using BPGs most effective? Are there certain characters that can be placed in vulnerable positions from the BPG's slide, or any that have a hard time punishing it? I'll add a character-specific section if there are :3

[*]How do/have you been using BPGs and RBPGs in your gameplay?

After DTilts and jab combos. The former, they DI away and usually sheild and it works, and the latter, they DI away, so it also works.

[*]Does Diddy have more Grab length with his BPG over his normal Grab?

Not drastically much, but definitely yes.

[*]How useful do you think BPGs and RBPGs are at this stage in Diddy's metagame, if at all? Do they have potential?

It definitely isn't an "OMG GAMEBREAKING!!!1one" technique, but it is pretty useful. It helps Diddy keep momentum of the game and move across the stage freely, which are both essential parts of Diddy's metagame. In itself, it's minor, but it does help overall with Diddy's momentum.

[*]What controller do you use?

Gamecube controller, normal settings.

[*]With your controller, what do you think is the best way to BPG?

Initiate a dash, then down on the c-stick, then the opposite direction and Z at basically the same time, I haven't been able to cleanly differentiate o.o

Now, my question is in what matchups do you find using BPGs most effective? Are there certain characters that can be placed in vulnerable positions from the BPG's slide, or any that have a hard time punishing it? I'll add a character-specific section if there are :3

I can't think of any. It's a pretty universal technique in its applications, so I don't think a certain character would suffer from it any more than another. The one most people think of is Luigi, but you could just do a regular Boosted Grab without the pivot to grab him during the slide.

Yes I agree
I always had trouble following up on Luigi after he trips cause of how far he slides but the BPG as AvaricePanda said lets you grab them before they can escape. Really useful aplication there.

Pivot grab pulls mk out of tornado. If we use Shield and C Stick it should block the tornado and then pivot grab mk.

Hmm, I wonder if that will really work?

I find boosted pivot grabs to be great at punishing people who spotdodge bananas too predictably. If you glide toss into an opponent and read their spotdodge you can continue running at them and a BPG will get them right as they come out of their dodge. BPGs also seem effective as just random mixups and they look pretty dam cool.

VERY NICE THx.

4RCE said:

Pivot grab pulls mk out of tornado. If we use Shield and C Stick it should block the tornado and then pivot grab mk.

Click to expand...

cool, another way to stop the tornado

why cstick and not a?

Kaptain Kong said:

cool, another way to stop the tornado

why cstick and not a?

Click to expand...

I haven't tested it, but it sounds good in theory I think. Atomsk takes credit for the thought though I think.

-C Stick and A should be interchangeable, but I rarely use my attack button outside of jab and tilts so C-Stick is just personal preference.

4RCE said:

Pivot grab pulls mk out of tornado. If we use Shield and C Stick it should block the tornado and then pivot grab mk.

Click to expand...

SERIOUSLY? That's a **** good use if it's true. Someone please test this, I really want it to work.

I should, since a Grab will pull Meta out and a BPG/RBPG gives you about "an inch" more Grab range on your TV (<3 DFEAR )

You'd shield the Tornado and then do a RBPG to grab him. THAT would be fun.

Ingulit said:

SERIOUSLY? That's a **** good use if it's true. Someone please test this, I really want it to work.

I should, since a Grab will pull Meta out and a BPG/RBPG gives you about "an inch" more Grab range on your TV (<3 DFEAR )

You'd shield the Tornado and then do a RBPG to grab him. THAT would be fun.

Click to expand...

You can just regular pivotgrab MK out of the tornado with every character. Now that I think about it, you can pivotgrab him out of drill rush too. I did that to Munkus twice today, lol.

You can also pivotgrab every aerial and smash attack of several different characters with even the ICs. Ask John about him v my IC the other day. LOL at pivotgrabbing > QACing and disjointed aerials. So broken, I tell you...

DanGR said:

You can just regular pivotgrab MK out of the tornado with every character. Now that I think about it, you can pivotgrab him out of drill rush too. I did that to Munkus twice today, lol.

You can also pivotgrab every aerial and smash attack of several different characters with even the ICs. Ask John about him v my IC the other day. LOL at pivotgrabbing > QACing and disjointed aerials. So broken, I tell you...

Click to expand...

weeeellll soooorrrry we can't use dumb broken pikmin grabs >=(

Lol, read what I posted. I was saying that every character can do that stuff- that is, if you've got good timing and the awareness to do it of course.

Olimar can't even pivotgrab MK out of that stuff if he's above the ground anyways. His vertical grab range really sucks. :/ ... :3