Hot/Cold Marth Theory, (Error Magin ppl! Read OP)

Marth is nowhere naturally as good as we thought since the inception of Brawl.

However…

Perhaps we all came to this conclusion at one point or another, at the beginning many players thought that Marth was probably Top Tier and as time went on he slowly made the transition somewhere lost in the middle tier. Not terrible by any means but not as awesome as we all thought. Turns out recoveries are extremely valuable and Marth doesn’t have an excellent one, mediocre at best. Some characters have easy, reliable kill moves where Marth has laggy, semi-predictable, and unreliable ones.

So how does Marth win in the first place?

By playing flawless.

Have you ever noticed either you’re completely overwhelming a perso,n literally beaten to a pulp or you’re the one being decimated? That’s because Marth has no error margin. Marth doesn’t have the luxury to get hit off the stage often because of his mediocre recovery. Marth can’t afford to get hit very much because his momentum cancel leaves him without a jump, opening him to more gimpy action. However, when played to a point of near perfection as far as Brawl is concerned, Marth is a Beast. By spacing well, not getting grabbed, reading people, being patient, knowing when to attack and when to hold back, DI correctly, use your kill moves correctly, pressuring when appropriate, applying a mixup game, and knowing your matchups, the game suddenly leans heavily in your favor. Not many characters can do much to a Marth that actually practices what he preaches using the range, invincibility frames, etc. Not even Meta Knight. Why is Marth so Hot/Cold?

Because Marth is an emotional character.

Let me explain.

I’ve spent countless hours playing with Marth and I’ve come to the conclusion that in order for you to transfer everything your skill has to offer you need to be completely in sync with the game. You need to be “in the zone”, “owning”, “pumped up”, whatever, in order to get passed those last few rounds to reach finals of a tournament, whether it’s a local or in a regional. You absolutely need it. Notice how your Marth does on those days you just don’t feel like playing. It does terrible. Notice how your Marth does after a dissapointing loss that sends you to losers bracket. Terrible. Notice how your Marth does after when he 3 stocks you or you SD. Terrible.

My point is:

Control your emotions. Think. Put aside anything that’s happening at the moment. I believe he’s the only character that suffers Severely from Hot/Cold.

Of course there are exceptions, those people who can just “Do it”, either that or they’re impervious to feelings. I know this sounds weird since it doesn’t have anything to do that’s integrated in Brawl, but it applies to the psychological aspect of the game, like mind/mixup games.

It winds down to the reason why Marth has been shifting away from the higher tier, it all depends on how the actual player uses the character at the moment, Marth can wind up from being as good if not better than MK (well at least pretty **** close), Falco, and Snake or as iffy as Zelda or Lucas.

** Believe me, I know this may or may not apply to the entire game as well but I think so, more so to Marth in Brawl.

Thanks for reading.

Disscuss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO5uCKw4nl0

marth is dumb

I like the katie perry reference

lol at the video link, good post havok. =)

goood **** havok <3

**Havok** said:

Control your emotions.

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Good, I can feel your anger... I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side to top 3 will be complete!

My suggestion if you do have a stupid loss and it's affecting you is to get away from everything mentally or if possible physically so you can come back and not be distracted.

If you get gayed by a stage or you lose a close game it's so important to stay focused and keep your patience if you want any chance of winning in the end.

Good guide Havok.

Well, by far one of the truest posts out their atm. Well Marth and his players always stand a chance if you abuse your Lotion (Force) xD Good ****!

JunkInTheTrunk said:

My suggestion if you do have a stupid loss and it's affecting you is to get away from everything mentally or if possible physically so you can come back and not be distracted.

If you get gayed by a stage or you lose a close game it's so important to stay focused and keep your patience if you want any chance of winning in the end.

Good guide Havok.

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so ****ing true >< tis what happens alot thats why i bring my music to clear my head

I can agree with you somewhat on this, I feel that when I've listened to enough DMX that I'm "in the zone" as you say, and I just ****rock everyone that I play against. When I'm on a losing streak it usually stays that way until I'm in the DMX mode again.

On the other hand, what you're saying pretty much applies to all players, and your post hasn't really received any serious feedback it seems, because, of your catchy song. Maybe you haven't considered that once we've started winning, it's because we're "pumped up", that maybe it's because they're the one's that aren't so focused now that we've disrupted their groove? Maybe it isn't so specifically us as it is both players? From my own experience, when I'm actually on top of my game I notice a decline in enthusiasm from my opponent. This doesn't necessarily mean that we've now entered a Tsar state that is just so overwhelming that the possibility of us losing is inconceivable. I think that just in a general sense, a landslide victory for one player is going to leave the other player with a lack of confidence. This is going to lead to them being unsure, and making more mistakes.

"Have you ever noticed either you’re completely overwhelming a person and is literally beaten to a pulp or you’re the one being decimated? That’s because Marth has no error margin. Marth doesn’t have the luxury to get hit off the stage often because his recovery gets gimped. Marth can’t afford to get hit by smashes because his momentum cancel leaves him without a jump which prones him to more gimpy action, plus he’s light. However, when played to a point of near perfection as far as Brawl goes, Marth is a Beast. By spacing well, not getting grabbed, reading people, being patient, knowing when to attack and when to hold back, DI correctly, use your kill moves sparingly and randomly, pressure when appropriate, mixing up your game, and knowing your matchups, the game suddenly leans heavily in your favor. Not many characters can do much to a Marth that actually practices what he preaches using the range, invincibility frames, etc. Not even Meta Knight. Why is Marth so Hot/Cold?"

This describes pretty much everyone. It's understandable if you're counter-picked or something, but this generally applies to everyone, not just Marth. Your whole concept here is pretty vague. It's not that I disagree completely, but in all seriousness, this doesn't just apply to Marth.

Anyways nice music lawl.

Sailboat said:

This describes pretty much everyone. It's understandable if you're counter-picked or something, but this generally applies to everyone, not just Marth. Your whole concept here is pretty vague. It's not that I disagree completely, but in all seriousness, this doesn't just apply to Marth.

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It's not the ****** factor I'm talking about but the fact that Marth can lose/win so easily. That's right. Both.

Whether a character has a potential or not is a different case, that's something different altogether.

Every other character has enough error margin to be able to commit a few mistakes per game where Marth might not kill for their mistake anyways. Whereas Marth gets punished HARD for a missed up-B, a grab, a misused jump, predicted wrong etc *insert error here*.

There no middle ground really. It happens at really high level of play at tourneys but that's about it, usually the Marth either dominates the game (even though he dies) or the other character is put into the drivers seat and takes marth on a stroll if you get my drift.

Point: Marth requires more concentration than the rest of the cast because of his flaws (flaws because of the lack of a word for me to describe it at the moment).

People who play Marth at a competitive level know what I'm talking about, not that I'm downplaying your opinion or anything (nor you as a player).

I accept/respect your point of view as well.

another beautiful guide havokz

and i want to mm you and junk on the next tournament i'll be prepare to hand over those crispy and nice dollars bills to you guys

There's a very easy solution to this....OS has told me that whenever he feels he didn't play very well in a game or he lost by making a simple error etc. what he does is that he refocuses himself using something he's trained himself to instantly relax to. Conversely, he'll also start off the match with something that he's trained himself to instantly become confident or enter "the zone" with. What people need to start doing is something like that...just do something "distinctive" that will bring to your mind the calmness and the focus that you first started with if you're feeling down, and enter the match with a move of confidence (e..g turning a hat backwards).

I've had these feelings about Marth before but my mind had really never put them into words!

very well-thought and eloquent guide

(it could not be more true about how Marth is harder because he can't spam his Kill moves. )

%^&%ing G&W

I think this is something that should be given heavy consideration. I know for a fact that my emotions can either blind or refine my actions, and I've always found that my Marth game changes depending on who I play. The more severe the threat presented to me, the better I play, doesn't always work, but sometimes there is a difference. This kind of goes back to an old saying when I used to play melee with my friends that went something along the lines of : "There is something about being on the last stock that brings out the beast in Marth." This can apply to Brawl, we just need to learn how not to jump into the ****.

This also accurately describes just about every match I've had against a Marth (assuming that the player isn't the noobiest piece of crap player to ever grace this planet)..

If I'm focused I can do well, but....

If I'm not focused, $%(* shield break/spike/tipper (or in other words, i just died). Not only that but it can have a complete snowball effect, as in exponentially more mistakes than before. I get nervous, so I'm shielding more than I was before and am much more readable, leading to easy shield breaks/spikes/tippers... <_<

That's the crux of Marth's game, capitalize on every mistake, condition your opponent, make them regret every move they make after being conditioned, destroy them from within. It's almost all mental games, but if you fail to condition the opponent well enough you'll end up eating a lot of pain.

I actually disagree about having to make yourself completely emotionless and focused to effectively use Marth. What I do that causes me to play better is I emotionally invest myself into the game. I've found that as I play a terrible opponent that bores me to tears, I will make considerably more mistakes, as I can't get involved in the match. When playing a good opponent, I find myself emotionally involved, and I'm capable of a constant state of focus, and am capable of effectively reading the opponent. Music often helps with this. The song Shin Onigashima, for instance, helps me to become involved in the match, and I often find myself listening to this song during a tourney match.

This reminds me one time i played MikeHaze in Quiznos I dont remenber exactly what Quiznos, but he looked very handsome with a new hair cut =P.
He was very depress because he used to think Marth wasn't good anymore, we played a couple of friendlys, i won most of those friendlys, he looked back to me with a very sad face and told me "I can't win with Marth anymore". And i was like T_T

Then at Winter game fest, we played again some friendlys. But this time I didnt encounter the sad MikeHaze, it was the MikeHaze we all know.

**** i was getting ****, MikeHaze was playing perfectly, like I couldnt do nothing, I think we played only one or three friendlys. Until someone asked for the TV because they have a tournament macth, to tell you the truth i was glad because i just remenber having a bad time. Then I turn back to Mike and tell him something like "****", "wow" or just give him a face like this O.o

Mike just response me with a big smile like he was about to release a small laugh, and then we took separate ways, i was thinking how, MikeHaze beat me, because i suppose to know the macth very well...
Now that i'm reading this it makes me wonder if this is the reason.
This might be a very general subject that aplys for other players, but maybe it aplys much more for Marth players.
BTW all top Marth player are cool guys, did everyone notice that? And i still wonder why MikeHaze always wants to play friendlys with me?

All the Marth mains I've ever known have been cool, calm, fun-to-play people. Part of the reason why I picked Marth as my main is because I found a lot of similarities between my personality and his play style.

This does seem right now that you mention it
In every tourney I've been to(I haven't been to very many though)
I always lose 2 matches in a row
I could win my first few matches, but then after I lose my first, I always lose the second

Usually when I lose a match I record it. I look over it and find out what I've done wrong, and fix it. Takes time and practice to do this, as sometimes you just don't know the match up well or you may have just screwed up a lot. Marth is such a progressive character.

@Havok: I agree with you a lot here, in that Marth doesn't have nearly as much wiggle room with mistakes as other characters do. I play Diddy for example, and my banana game allows me to have quite a bit of leeway with my own mistakes, as well as allows for pacing on those days when I'm not on top of my game. Marth doesn't have these luxuries.

@clowsui: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

"Anchoring is the process by which a particular state or response is associated (anchored) with a unique anchor. An anchor is most often a gesture, voice tone or touch but could be any unique visual, auditory, kinesthetic, olfactory or gustatory stimulus. It is claimed that by recalling past resourceful states one can anchor those states to make them available in new situations. A psychotherapist might anchor positive states like calmness and relaxation, or confidence in the treatment of phobias and anxiety, such as in public speaking. Proponents state that anchors are capable of being formed and reinforced by repeated stimuli, and thus are analogous to classical conditioning."

This topic states the reason why most newer Smash players such as myself cannot succeed with Marth. When you stack inexperience, proneness to mistakes, the learning curve required to use Marth at even an average acceptable level, and the fact that Marth doesn't handle those flaws well as an integral part of his character design, winning consistently will typically be nothing but a lost dream.

But of course there's people like Steel that have the luxuries to make him/her lose those flaws, and the drive to do it. But other than him, you rarely hear of any good Marth players that just played competitively from Brawl only.

Well Viet I play for fun so I usually don't mind loosing that much

BTW Why is MetaKnight your Character?

EDIT: Spell Check >_<

Steel_Samurai said:

This does seem right now that you mention it
In every tourney I've been to(I haven't been to very many though)
I always lose 2 matches in a row
I could win my first few matches, but then after I lose my first, I always lose the second

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Except for that time where you beat me twice in a row
That was dumb.

4jawikrejfawe edit

Good post, there are some things I disagree with that I'll get into later but for the most part it's good info.

I'm glad people are trying to focus some on the mental aspect of the game and how it affects your characters play style.

I think we are the only boards that have even attempted to go into the mental aspects of the game.

Marth really is a character about thought. With some characters, it seems to be like, you just identify the situation and react accordingly. It's very reflexive. With Marth, I find it more about having to constantly consider my actions. Due to the nature of his play style, you have to be actively thinking rather than reacting. It's tricky to describe. But I find that I will always play worse when I stop thinking. When I realize this, often on the third stock, I will pull back, get defensive, take a mental moment, and play smarter. When I can do this, I find my game is much more effective. This is still the weak part of my game. I've read the guides. I know the tricks, mostly. I just have to get to the right mental level of control.

This is why I question Marth's position on the tier list.

Characteristics of high tier characters:

Speed/Power: MK is a speed demon, GW is fairly fast himself. Snake has incredibly fast attacks with great power. DDD has power via CG, gordo, raw damage, weight. Falco has decent damaging moves, a cg combo and is reasonably fast. ROB is heavier than marth and has kill moves and quick defensive attacks.

Marth is a not nearly as fast as MK and not all of his attacks are that fast. To boot he is no where near as strong as most of the others.

Campiness: MK is an approacher, but his speed and range means he can camp if needed. Snake, DDD, Rob, and Falco have an excellent projectile game and they can generate offense through their camping.

Marth has no projectile, so like MK and GW, he will not threaten anyone who decides to chill out on the other side of the stage. He has a great defensive game, but thats all it is is a defensive tactic, guys like DDD can camp much more effectively with a projectile.

Approaching: MK...yea. Snake, DDD, ROB don't need to approach because of their projectiles and overall defense minded game. GW has good fast priority aerials, Falco has his lasers, Dacus etc.

Marth's offense relies entirely on reading his opponent and reacting well, his aerials may come out fast but almost all of his attacks are easily punished. No margin of error. The others have either no need to approach or a lot of leeway, like MK.

Killing: MK is a gimpmachine and can kill with Dsmash. DDD is a relatively good gimper due to his 5 jumps and he has the power to kill off of moderate/serious mistakes. GW, Rob, Snake and Falco have strong moves they can KO with and they can usually come off setups because of projetiles or raw power.

Marth's reliable kill moves most be fresh and they must be set up and often they must be tipped. Quite a few requirements compared to others. Marth's primary method of killing are to gimp, and continue attempting to gimp until sufficient damage is racked up. Marth doesn't have any reliable combos and he doesn't do a lot of damage in general, so Marth must constantly outdo his opponents. Gimping is marth's saving grace, and is something he lives and dies by.

Recovering: Marth is outclassed by practically all other high tier characters in recovery. They have options, marth has a measly DB stall.

I believe the only reason Marth is considered High tier is because his users put enough dedication into him to use him well. Marth's metagame is evolved completely on the basis of outsmarting his opponents. Characters like MK and Snake can win just by being MK and Snake. Marth requires perfection to cling to his spot.

However; the concept of being "in the zone" applies not only to marth but to all characters, especially lower ranked ones. Marth is special in the respect that when a player does perform flawlessly, Marth can be brilliant. Marth is one of the few characters that can be taken far with absolute dedication. From this stems something we all know; Marth has a VERY steep learning curve.

I think Marth is a unique character in this aspect, while other characters work on techiniques, chaining attacks, tricks and traps, and a plethora of other things revolving around the game itself, Marth's playstyle is completely dependent on the character hes facing and the person behind the controller. Playing MK and DDD is automatic, there are things you do, and things you don't do, you have a system and you stick to it. Marth on the other hand must constantly flucuate, you must be completely focused on reading your opponent and transition quickly into new tactics and playstyles. Other characters will prepare and wait for the opponent to do something. Marth must command and force his opponent to do something.

Competitive Brawl has no margin for error, Marth has something less; Marth has no margin for simply being off. I'm glad somebody finally raised this point, because it is something that sets Marth aside from the others.

GPEternity said:

Stuff

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You bring up some good points, but I do disagree with some of this.
-On speed, he certainly isn't as fast as MK, but marth actually has a good mix between speed an power (I found it funny how you went kind of vague on G&W and falco as marth is actually arguably better in these sorts of aspects.)
-In camping, EL had a good bit in his guide that explained how you camp with marth: right in their face at ideal spacing range. It certainly isn't as pronounced as MK's, but marth has relatively good options once in his ideal range, and can deal with other good campers as well.
-I will have to agree with you in the traditional sense of approaching, marth doesn't have such a good guaranteed approach at a higher level of play, but once he's at range, practically all his well spaced offensive moves constitute to the point where you don't need to exactly fall on them, it's kind of like a defensive offense/preemptive pressure.
-no projectile, can't argue with you there (though his maneuverability can take care of those that do).
-On killing, when you say that you need them fresh, you neglected to mention that we have one of the best anti-stale moves in the game. His killing certainly is risky, but taking them off the stage makes it just as risky for them, plus he has some pretty good options once he either gets them into the air for killing, and for good kill moves overall (though he won't be killing at under 100 too often).
-recovery:
-Snake's is ok, though against a marth especially is kind of tough
-Falco's are not very good in options
Yes, marth's is terrible for serving it's intended purpose, but it has so many good uses for edgeguarding and killing.

I'm not per se trying to take away that marth indeed is someone with an incredibly difficult learning curve, but he certainly has purpose so that he doesn't merely fall away as a "mindgame" character like Sonic. Certain things about marth make an opponent regardless of the tier they derive from play differently not because they make mistakes per se, but are just merely doing the wrong thing at the wrong instance. It's like the match is a giant tech chase.

GPEternity said:

Marth's offense relies entirely on reading his opponent and reacting well, his aerials may come out fast but almost all of his attacks are easily punished. No margin of error. The others have either no need to approach or a lot of leeway, like MK.
.

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Absolutely true at higher level of play, his offense is crippled by any decent defensive option so its important to react rather than initiate the majority of the times, of course there are always exceptions matchups/players etc.

For example let's take Marth's greatest offensive option, the almight Fair.

Examples of decent defensive options that can go toe to toe withMarth's fair = Huge grab range (D3), Snakes Ftilt (A Snake can do this if they expect a Fair from marth from a distance and you eat a Knee, its weird, it prolly has to do with the fact that you have to SH first THEN fair and snake just ftilt AKA frame count), Peach's fsmash (at least vs double SH fair) , and generally block grab assuming the player IS human and will commit a mistake sooner or later. Or if your NEO or something.

MK can Dsmash repeatedly safely. Snake can ftilt pretty safely. d3 can spot dodge over and over to a certain extent.

Marth can up-B over and ove- wait no. Fsmash-- no wait hold on. Dsmash-- uhh. Upsmash--"..."

phi1ny3 said:

-In camping, EL had a good bit in his guide that explained how you camp with marth: right in their face at ideal spacing range. It certainly isn't as pronounced as MK's, but marth has relatively good options once in his ideal range, and can deal with other good campers as well.

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Here's the problem with Marth and 'camping': It doesn't work (purely opinionated of course).

Why: Marth's Best options for range require a hop that puts in you in the air in order to use his Fair, which in turn means you can't block for that split second while you finish your fair. I'm fully aware that you can do the Fair as you land but then that means you're in danger before the fair is executed. Running and shielding cripples this option, especially dtilt. Lately dtilt has NOT been too hot for that reason. On the semi-'rare' (rare because I yet to know anyone that can do it at will to stay at 0% while avoiding grabs) occasions of power shielding cripples Marth's pathetic attempt to 'camp'.

Sure you can do retreating Fair to someone who tries to run and shield...try doing that to a Snake with long range ftilts.

I suppose a grab right away when running and shielding opponents get too obvious is the solution but again...that's a reactive response.

However, he can camp IC's =). Don't get grabbed right?

One good point in keeping someone at max range is when an opponent is holding his shield and you do get to push someone away with anything tippered.

Thank god we're all human and don't always play perfect.

Cheers.

phi1ny3 said:

-no projectile, can't argue with you there (though his maneuverability can take care of those that do).

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Actually I started noticing a trend with Marth players, it may just be a bad habit though. Many Marth's land IN FRONT of their opponent, fairing. But it's not by choice, either you just 'land' or fair. So you get grabbed. What does this have to do with marth's mobility? It's predictable. Many Marth's are so used to fast falling everything that it makes their landing point obvious. Sure there's pivot B but that thing is nowhere near as useful as say Snake's B pivot.

Maybe we should start incorporating more stalls?

iono...

phi1ny3 said:

I'm not per se trying to take away that marth indeed is someone with an incredibly difficult learning curve, but he certainly has purpose so that he doesn't merely fall away as a "mindgame" character like Sonic. It's like the match is a giant tech chase.

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I don't think people know what they're getting into when they play with Marth. Superficially the character seems easy to play, just keep someone at max range, use your entire moveset etc etc. But sometimes that's not enough, it requires something else. I guess you could say 'mindgames' but that's not the only thing.

Sorry people I'm not trying to sound pessimistic about Marth or anything, just pointing out things about our beloved character.

Let's work together to do something about it.


EDIT: On the issue of gimping sometimes it feels like Marth can do it only half way. Play with MK or ROB to get what im talking about.

phi1ny3 said:

stuff

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GW is not a slow character in the least, and though marth has some faster attacks than him GW can get some good damage off on his moves and he has some reliable spams like the turtle and dtilt and if he mindgames you into one of his slow smashes its wtfdieat80%pwnt. His dthrow is also a builtin mindgame. Falco i will say marth possibly outclasses in both, but falco isn't a slow character and he can kill around the same percent as marth.

Marth's camping in itself is not offsensive, you can sit there throwing out a wall but if you just fling out attacks even at ideal range all they have to do is wait for an opportunity to shield or roll behind you, which forces you to take that into account and either incorporate shieldbreaker, or get out of punishable range if an attack gets blocked so your still forced to make critical adjustments to have the advantage. And even then, he still can't outcamp anyone with a projectile because odds are you're going to mess up once and lose by a 3% decision. Lack of projectile means camping with marth has no aggressive nature in it, where as camping even with ice climbers can threaten the enemy just out of range.

In killing, all of marth's kill moves are laggy and don't have a reliable set up outside of punishing or mindgame. other characters either have really fast kill moves, or low lag kill moves, or both. his kill moves also require more precision due to his tipper.

Falco has a modifyable range phantasm to go with his upb, meaning different ways to get back onto stage and recover to the middle of the stage. snake has the option of recovering high and although it prones him to juggling he has the weight to protect him. Unless marth is knocked very high to the corner, hes either recovering to the edge, or the ledge and he will do it with a DS or his double jump, if he still has it. THe only mixup is the DB stall. all of his options are threatened by a timed edgehog because he needs to get to the same place with all of them

I think what Marth requires is a lot more concious thought than his peers. Since we can't just wait for a mistake, we must force them.

My friend and I actually had a very similar discussion about this not too long ago.
Marth has every tool a good player could possibly ask for, yet he still seems to lack something. We've come to the conclusion that he's missing, for lack of a better term, an "easy way out." Marth has everything you need (arial dominance, maneuverability, godly spike, DANCING BLADE, ability to kill, etc...). The only problem (if you consider it a problem) is that he doesn't have a "gimmick." For instance, I play Ice Climbers, who, excluding the CG, are actually not very good. Fortunately, I'm able to CG any character in the cast for a stock. This is obviously an extreme, but Marth doesn't have the luxury of something like the ICs CG to fall back on.

When I read the hot/cold ideas presented, I was reminded of when I (rarely) play as Zelda. I either dominate or get beat like a rag doll. Unlike Marth, though, Zelda always has that slight chance of connecting a lightning heel or landing a spike. Marth has nothing he can rely on, as far as something to help you out. He has tippers, of course, but they pale in comparison to what other characters have.

So, I've come to the conclusion that, although Marth has everything you could want in a character, he lacks that extra "push." Almost every other character in the game has something special about them (Diddy's bananas, DDD's CG and edge game, Ike's ability to punish when in the right hands, etc...). Marth, however, is probably the most neutral character in the game. This is a good thing, though, as he doesn't have any terrible matchups or stage counter-picks. Playing ICs sucks at times, because I almost always have to bank on winning the first game to win the set. If my opponent gets a CP, I'm instantly put at a HUGE disadvantage. ICs also have a couple matchups that are as bad as 30-70 in the opponent's favor. This is why Marth is so "emotional." He has no glaring weakness in either matchups OR stages, so how he performs depends COMPLETELY on how the player is using him.... if that makes sense...

ignore the fire said:

Marth, however, is probably the most neutral character in the game. This is a good thing, though, as he doesn't have any terrible matchups or stage counter-picks.

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Actually our so-called advantageous 'matches' that are 60/40 aren't in fact correct, they're 50/50. Not all of them mind you but some of the ones we have listed as 60/40 are wrong. So you're right to say that marth doesn't have any 'terrible' matches but also as you stated is he straight up neutral.

stage counterpicks vs marth: brinstar, frigate orpheon, rainbow cruise, (kinda) jungle japes, (just the low of the ceiling in one part of the stage) halberd/corneria, all of these makes marth's weak return glare like a blonde among brunettes.

**Havok** said:

Actually our so-called advantageous 'matches' that are 60/40 aren't in fact correct, they're 50/50. Not all of them mind you but some of the ones we have listed as 60/40 are wrong. So you're right to say that marth doesn't have any 'terrible' matches but also as you stated is he straight up neutral.

stage counterpicks vs marth: brinstar, frigate orpheon, rainbow cruise, (kinda) jungle japes, (just the low of the ceiling in one part of the stage) halberd/corneria, all of these makes marth's weak return glare like a blonde among brunettes.

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Which 60:40s do you see as even? I'd agree on a certain few...

I think most of the 60:40's are correct, and I agree with this theory, I can't tell you how bad I get after I get mad with Marth, to switch to my secondary and win because I stop caring and relax.

Rukkiko said:

I think most of the 60:40's are correct, and I agree with this theory, I can't tell you how bad I get after I get mad with Marth, to switch to my secondary and win because I stop caring and relax.

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I can't help but think ZSS, Sheik, and maybe Diddy (or maybe I'm just bad at the matchup) are closer to even...

I agree. I'm no where near as good as my friends in Brawl, but I decided to pick up Marth. If I get pissed or shaken up what little skill I have goes right out the window. Any suggestions for staying in the "zone"?