Morph Ball Bomb Discussion

LanceStern · Feb 12, 2009

I'm going to talk hopefully a little more about this later, but I'm finding that Morph Ball Bombs can be a lot more useful than we think.

We've seen them used to set up stage spikes by Xyro and Tudor and one other famous samus user (I forget the name), but I'm finding they can be very useful in creating space between my opponent.

When it comes to fighting characters that are bent on close-range combat, sometimes Samus can fall a little short to their multi-hit attacks and combos, but a morph ball scattered in-between shots can really mes sup their rhythm, or at least stop them from approaching immediately.

I personally like to do a couple of short-hopped missiles, and if they start to approach, back up with a morph ball bomb and try to lure them into it. I don't have any videos, but I think it could be a good discussion. Walling Techniques or even setting up for combos.

Some Benefits
+ MBBs block Ice Climber Icicles. Lay a MBB down and it will deflect them back without detonating.
+ MBBs blow up Snakes down smash (he digs a mine in the ground). Jump over them and drop a MBB to clear the trap.
+ MBBs help prevent chain grabs (especially ICs). Keep them near you.

ALLSTAR41 · Feb 12, 2009

Yea i try to use it from time to time. Its cool because after doing a for a couple times the opponent wont be on your *** as much and learn to back away when you are placing the bombs, thus creating an opportunity for you to attack.

n00b · Feb 12, 2009

LanceStern said:
We've seen them used to set up stage spikes by Xyro and Tudor and one other famous samus user (I forget the name)

LOL there's only 3 - tudor xyro and rohins

i like to think Raigoth contributed a LOT

I already wrote a huge long post about bomb buffering cancel tricks and applications.. the problem is there is usually a BETTER application.

i can only see delayed shield pressure and chain-grab interrupts

bomb jumping to recover actually gets me edgeguarded better :\

i usually just use bombs to superwavedash to taunt after a kill

LanceStern · Feb 12, 2009

One of the small applications that has helped me:

Usually I'm short-hop MISSILE-ING and doing a pretty good job of keeping away from my opponent. But when they get impatient and start running towards me, I drop a bomb early and back away. Usually they are still approaching, so either they will run back (which gives me time to either camp some more or charge my plasma shot) or they attempt to go through the bomb.

Scenario #1
--------------
Most of the time they are not sure on the bombs' timing, so they shield early. The bomb kind of has two hits if you run into it when it's still bouncing on the floor - a smack and then it explodes - so they'll drop their shield after the smack and then it explodes on them.

The knockback and stun is ridiculously useless, but I often time run in with a grapple hook or plasma shot if they fall for it.

Scenario #2
-------------
The other scenario is they hold their shield for both bomb hit boxes, but then I still have time to come in with the grapple hook because they are trying to keep from being blown up.

Scenario #3
-------------
Last scenario is they time everything perfect (probably by rolling from the bomb and my grapple hook/ approach) and then they punish me due to Hook Lagz.

But it is very useful.

LanceStern · Feb 12, 2009

I'm sorry, I'll also sometimes throw in a zair rather than approach with a grapple hook / air attack.

n00b · Feb 12, 2009

LanceStern said:
One of the small applications that has helped me:

Usually I'm short-hop lasering and doing a pretty good job of keeping away from my opponent.

HOW DO YOU SHORT HOP LASER WITH SAMUS PLEASE TELL ME kthx

LanceStern · Feb 12, 2009

n00b said:
HOW DO YOU SHORT HOP LASER WITH SAMUS PLEASE TELL ME kthx

Lol, my mistake.

ALLSTAR41 · Feb 12, 2009

rofl, hands off my bread

KingChaos · Feb 13, 2009

Yes bombs can be very useful i find them particularly useful when opponents try to approach from the air like falco''s dair. Just use one of the bombs to space back and automatic grab, dtilt, fsmash etc. Also bombs are useful in stoping MK's whorenado for the most part it hits him out of it it may also be a good idea to sort of ledge camp with the bombs when they use the nado.

Rohins · Feb 14, 2009

If you use projectiels like charge blasts or missiles while recovering you cut your horizontal momentum. Use a bomb to gain maximum horizontal velocity in the direction you prefer (toward the level). If you stabilize your horizontal movement it's really easy to bomb jump while recovering too.

SinkingHigher · Feb 14, 2009

I found it useful for preventing knockback.

i.e.

Lay Bomb > F-smash into bomb > F-smash again.

I haven't really tested out other moves, but I would imagine that f-tilt, u-tilt and possible d-tilt will also work.

Oh, also, if you jump forward when grabbing the ledge, you can lay a bomb on the edge and hit c-stick back, then wait a second and do the second jump with an f-air. The bomb traps them just in time for you to come in with the f-air and so far in my experience this has prevented all edgeguarding.

You need to wait for the opportunity, though. If you miss it, u-air or missles or something.

PentaSalia · Feb 14, 2009

i find it useful for edgeguard,kinda lol
i never really use it
but some of these ideas sound good :D

LanceStern · Feb 14, 2009

One of the smaller uses I found in terms of approaching enemies.

I like to either run at them and lawy a bomb to DI backwards. Usually they try to approach from the air by jumping over the bomb, so I pull out Samus' nair to knock them back. It's risky at low percentages though because they can strike you due to nair lag. Might have to fast-fall it.

If they don't approach from the air but try the ground, then see those other scenarios in my other post.

If they just stand there, start missiling them haha

Royta · Feb 16, 2009

a bomb creates a nice area where they won't like to come since they are probably going to get hit, so you are kinda limiting their options which is always good. Capitalize on that.

Same goes for homing and non-homing missiles btw

RaigothDagon · Feb 16, 2009

n00b said:
LOL there's only 3 - tudor xyro and rohins

i like to think Raigoth contributed a LOT

Thanks nOOb, that does mean a lot to me. By the way, I know it may be a fruitless pursuit, and there probably aren't a lot of people still looking for it, but I am still trying to figure out how to do the CS cancel (not to be confused with the charge cancel). I'm pretty sure most of us have had it happen accidently before, and I'm almost certain it wasn't due to online lag, due to me hardly being online at all.

Smash_Gigas · Feb 17, 2009

I mainly use Bombs to either help controll the space between me and my foe, or to play with their sheilds so I can get in a Dtilt, Grab, or defense from being grabbed.

I once used it to help my Jab combo.
Jab--> Bomb--> Club
It was nifty.

tha_carter · Feb 17, 2009

If you double jump, and the cancel your second jump with a bomb FF UAir>Dsmash, it will poke through 3De's shield. And if he manages to angle it down, it will break it. I wouldnt recommend spamming this technique, but its actually really useful to know.

Bombs are not a good offensive technique though...

LanceStern · Feb 23, 2009

I'm finding them more and more to be like a well positioned chess manuever.

Setting a bomb, manuevering yourself to be either in the blast or just behind the blast yet buffering a f-smash, d-smash or d-titl sets up a very nice 3-hit wall. They would have to shield all three shots to get to samus, or out space her ala Marth or Olimar.

It's very fun, there might be something to it. There is SOME sort of AT in these morph ball bombs, we just have to find it

LanceStern · Feb 23, 2009

I've been playing around in training mode, kind of an expansion/spinoff of the technique where holding down allows you to immediately act after the MBB.

A lot of moves can be buffered, particularly with the C-Stick. You can buffer:

1. Samus' down-smash. Do this by MBB, and when you hit the floor smash down and a (don't hold down).
2. Samus' f-tilt angled at the feet (this does more damage than a standrrd f-tilt). Hold the analog stick in a diagonal-down position and hit A. Take a few seconds to get the timing. This has the least lag.
3. A d-tilt (particularly useful). Just hold down and hit the c-stick down as she hits the ground. (or holding down and pressing A)
4. Forward smash angled at the feet (which does more damage than a normal smash). C-stick left or right. Great for spacing.

*WARNING* The last two attacks often knock the opponent back into the bomb radius. Sometimes the bomb will cause extra damage as they fly off, but other times it will cancel their momentum, they can attack you first as Samus is still pulling back her arm from the two smashes! *WARNING*

Another cool thing I realized is that if you jump and immediately cancel the jump with a MBB, Samus does a morph ball bomb with less vertical height, and actually rolls on the ground for a split second (think the Spider ball technique). If you do this MB-cancelled jump and hold the c-stick to the left or right, it will move your morph ball, perfectly spacing you for any one of your buffered tilts/smashes!

But then I got to fooling around and thought about how it's really the c-stick that is doing the buffering, so I set the smashes to my c-stick. Leading to:
BUFFERED SPECIALS?

Nothing TOO special, but interesting nontheless for any Samus looking to play different. If you can part with having your C-stick used for smashes, set the C-stick to specials. It brings up some interesting buffers:

1. C-Stick Up. This is the most awesome one. You can buffer a screw attack out of your morph ball bomb. Either regularly MBB or MBCancel your jump and as you're holding down hit up on your C-stick. You go from your ball into a screw attack! Great to discourage your opponent who's trying to punish your morph ball.
2. c-Stick down buffers another morph ball bomb. Not particularly useful because mbb can be buffered without a c-stick. Maybe a good way to mbb in the air without accidently hurting your momentum holding down on the analog.
2. C-Stick Right or Left will buffer a jump. There's a use for this, I just don't know what it is yet.

So get out there Samus mains, break Samus' MBB until you find an Advanced Technique!

n00b · Feb 23, 2009

n00b said:
Bombs:

Out of bomb crouch canceling (Raigoth cancel/bcc), Samus can buffer a variety of commands
The most useful one is probably dtilt because it comes out unexpectedly fast and being in morph ball form gives her a smaller profile, a delayed projectile to worry about, and good spacing options.

To buffer the dtilt, hold down to bcc and just tap A.. pretty simple, but how the game recognizes inputs it optimizes the bcc "down" command and the "A" command to buffer the dtilt.

Instead of dtilt, you can buffer down-angled fsmashes, instant dash attacks, etc.. that's basic bcc stuff.

For more defensive options, like with MC buffers, you can buffer shield, instant spot dodge and instant roll (if performed correctly, no landing + shield startup frames are visible). To do the instant shield, just hold down near the end frames of the bomb laying animation and hold shield. To buffer the spot dodge, hold shield and tap down twice. The first one initiates the bcc, the second one buffers the spot dodge. This is pretty useful if the opponent expects a dtilt and spaces accordingly.. The last one, instant roll, is a bit more difficult. You need to hold shield, tap down, then make a quarter circle forward/back motion (QCF/QCB) similar to arcade fighter input. By rotating the stick a quarter circle, you buffer in the down for the bcc and the forward/back for the roll in a smooth motion. I don't think its necessary to perform the quarter circle if you can press down and left/right really fast, but it helps.

Against a shielding opponent, bombing past them into a bcc fsmash eats their shield, pushes them into the bomb, which eats their shield a little more. Sometimes, opponents tend to drop the shield after the initial fsmash/dtilt and forget about the bomb, which helps to setup another fsmash/dtilt. YMMV, but I think it's decent shield pressure.

Samus can cancel her ledge jump animation with a bomb at the very instant she leaves the ledge. This makes her return to the stage very very low to the ground, with a delayed projectile, and the ability to bcc into anything, really. She can vary the height at which her jump is canceled by timing the down b, and she can DI back to the ledge, off the ledge or into the stage. I think this is better than simply ledgedrop dj down b because ledgejumping counts as a "ledge animation" and I believe you're granted a few invinicibility frames for it.

That's probably all for now.. I just wanted to "publish" my bomb stuff.

good luck with that, Lance, I gave up on bombs a long time ago.

LanceStern · Feb 23, 2009

Oh wow n00b haha. Well throw in the buffered specials and how the c-stick can space you perfectly for bcc'd tilts. The screw atk out of bomb could be useful to Samus' that don't smash with the c-stick.

There just seems to be something in these bombs. Hm

0RLY · Feb 25, 2009

I just drop a bomb whenever I feel like I need to slow down an approach or slow my descent. Bomb jumping is nice when you see your opponent edgehog, and you don't want to get gimped. You can stall so that your opponent's ledge invincibility ends so you can safely recover. I don't try to hit people with bombs, though I laugh at them when they do get hit by it. Morale: -15

LanceStern · Feb 27, 2009

You guys might already know this but:

Morph Ball Bombs set off Snake's Mines (D-Smash)
You can full hop and MBB over the mine, or even to the sides of the mines... as long as it explodes near it.

I just tested it. Takes away one element of snakes mindgamez

VirisKnite · Feb 27, 2009

Yeah thats kind of obvious. But the problem is it does leave you open since your very vulnerable while in the morph ball. So while getting rid of the mine you might get smacked with a U-tilt or his boost smash. Not saying you shouldn't do it, getting rid of the mine is a good but don't make it such a priority that you'll set yourself up for something else.

nessqk · Mar 8, 2009

Bomb grabs are way cool first of all as I have specifically tryed to show people countless times before
Also samus is a projectile character so the more they block the more they loose shileds and if you use your bomb enough and effectivly they can break that shield this has been done just check the vid I'm actually glad this thread is up bombs work people use em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kp2iXi3FuY

LanceStern · Mar 9, 2009

Yea bombs are awesome. Jump cancelled Bomb -> Hold C-stick right/left -> forward/down tilt or smash

buffered and perfectly spaced attack.

Xyro77 · Mar 9, 2009

bombs still have a timer and do not explode on impact........worst move samus has

Lemonwater · Mar 9, 2009

No, it has its uses. Pop one out every once in a while to keep your opponent off you. You can also drop them off ledges to scare people.

Xyro77 · Mar 9, 2009

Lemonwater said:
No, it has its uses. Pop one out every once in a while to keep your opponent off you. You can also drop them off ledges to scare people.

^this MIGHT work if the foe doesnt know anything about samus.

kevinw0w · Mar 9, 2009

I like dropping a few bombs while returning to the stage after getting blasted overhead. Creates a wall between my opponent and i so i can land back safely I work them into simple combos. bomb>FF u air>screw attack.

Rhyme · Mar 9, 2009

tha_carter said:
If you double jump, and the cancel your second jump with a bomb FF UAir>Dsmash, it will poke through 3De's shield. And if he manages to angle it down, it will break it. I wouldnt recommend spamming this technique, but its actually really useful to know.

Bombs are not a good offensive technique though...

Sounds like a great idea for a time or two, until D3 catches on and uses full jump OoS -> Dair on you. Still, it's just one more option that Samus has, which is very important for her. I've been looking for ways of getting through D3's pesky shield, so thanks for the tip.

There's only one real use that I've found for bombs so far. Against characters like D3, Falco or Pika who might chaingrab, a dropped bomb has a chance of disrupting the CG. It's more situational than anything, though. If the bomb's behind you then they'll pummel to wait it out which gives you a chance to escape. If it's at your feet and you're the higher numbered controller port then it will knock them out of the CG (Pika's is weird because he dashes, so for him it's more dumb luck).

I'm working on new bomb techs in my head, but I've got nothing concrete as of yet.

Smash_Gigas · Mar 10, 2009

Lately I've been bombing on the ledge and DI'ing offstage to see if it would bait. It seems when I do, my opponent(s) are focused by the fact I'm offstage in ball form and completely erase the fact the bomb is still on the edge so they stand right on top of it. When the bomb detonates, I follow up with Fair or Dair. If they DO shield the bomb and my Fair, I noticed that the last flame or two still hits them, knocking them slightly back. I don't know if it's because they let go of the shield button for some reason, or if the shield drains just enough to poke them.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.

RaigothDagon · Mar 10, 2009

One thing I notice not a lot of people do is using bombs in their edge guarding. For instance, jumping off the stage and using bombs to stall your fall so that you can get a perfect zair. It is very situational, but when arent the bombs like that?

Xyro77 · May 5, 2009

This needs to be bumped because there MIGHT actually be something good with bombs, Rhyme said something about port 4

also, i didnt want to make another thread

Hive · May 5, 2009

n00b said:
LOL there's only 3 - tudor xyro and rohins

no fair! ; ;

LuLLo · May 5, 2009

May I suggest that the Samus Boards make a Moveset Discussion Thread and discuss this over there, along with her other moves, down at Falcon Boards and some other boards this has been a succes and we've learned many things we didn't know. Also, it's much easier to acces for many people, and in the end all the information that has been posted can be looked up easily. Just trying to contribute

.

PK-ow! · May 5, 2009

LuLLo said:
May I suggest that the Samus Boards make a Moveset Discussion Thread and discuss this over there, along with her other moves, down at Falcon Boards and some other boards this has been a succes and we've learned many things we didn't know. Also, it's much easier to acces for many people, and in the end all the information that has been posted can be looked up easily. Just trying to contribute .

Yeah I think almost every character can benefit from a moveset thread.

Ganondorf can't because he only has one attack option in every situation anyway. >_> (I wish that was a joke.)

Umm... so about Bombs. I was playing out some matches in my head the other day, and for some reason I had the idea that Bombs might be tech against Wario. Premise: Wario is a melee character (none of this works if he breaks his bike). Wario has ****ty land speed, so at a certain distance, you can plant a bomb relatively safely. If you do Raigoth's tech, it should put you in a fair position framewise if the Wario is coming toward you. Now, if the Bomb is between you two, Wario can't come at you on the ground - but who cares, he doesn't do that anyway. The thing is, he'll go into the air, you play normally (missiles, broiler, whatever), but I think there's a place the Bomb could be so that if he uses his stock Fair or Dair options, he'll get hit with the proxy explosion. That is, he can't do his aerial pokes; he would be forced into coming all the way toward you, or doing something like waste a jump, or otherwise put himself at risk.

If he waits out the bomb (possibly with his bike), I'm sure there are responses that are good for Samus.

So it seems to, in short, take away his options.

I mention it here, not the morphology thread, because (a) I want to know if I'm crazy, and (b) if there's something good to it, perhaps it can be generalized.

EDIT: And goddammit can someone clarify the two explosions thing once and for all? Is it two hitboxes (displaced in time), for cumulative damage?

Oh, and, about Raigoth's tech: Is the cancel caused by the timed down input, or is it a timed release of a down input? Because I've been wondering why I can't get it to happen if I hold [down].

Serris · May 5, 2009

Bombs split up the Ice Climbers very nicely, and they force them to back off for some breathing room. Samus can dominate them with well-placed bombs and grabs.

LanceStern · May 5, 2009

Smash_Gigas said:
Lately I've been bombing on the ledge and DI'ing offstage to see if it would bait. It seems when I do, my opponent(s) are focused by the fact I'm offstage in ball form and completely erase the fact the bomb is still on the edge so they stand right on top of it. When the bomb detonates, I follow up with Fair or Dair. If they DO shield the bomb and my Fair, I noticed that the last flame or two still hits them, knocking them slightly back. I don't know if it's because they let go of the shield button for some reason, or if the shield drains just enough to poke them.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.

This happens a lot too. it seems the shell has a hitbox, and the flame does as well. It baits very nicely from what I've experienced

Bombs split up the Ice Climbers very nicely, and they force them to back off for some breathing room. Samus can dominate them with well-placed bombs and grabs.

Agreed. As do Zairs. Nana can't seem to shield zairs very smart, and bombs she isn't too smart about either. It could FORCE the player into jumping in the air or shielding.

PK-ow! said:
So it seems to, in short, take away his options.

I mention it here, not the morphology thread, because (a) I want to know if I'm crazy, and (b) if there's something good to it, perhaps it can be generalized.

Someone would have to test out that matchup and lay some bombs.

Tudor · May 5, 2009

Hive said:
no fair! ; ;

Is it Dair? O.o

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