The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

M@v · Feb 13, 2009

ledge grab rule- "You are not allowed to grab the ledge more than 70 times in any individual tourney match. If you do, you automatically forfeit that match."
Alpha Zealot said he believes the Japanese already use this rule.

We started talking about this in the CoT4 results thread, and I feel it needs its own discussion. I REALLY like this idea, and I'm probably going to use it at my next Pittsburgh tourney. There are a lot of complaints of people stalling and planking, and although many TO's now prohibit ledge stalling, it is very hard to enforce. CoT4 showed this with several incidents, Norfair in particular being a troublesome stage to enforce it. This rule is very easy to enforce. In the victory/defeat screen after the match, you can check the stats to see how many times each player grabbed the ledge. If someone accuses the other of excessively planking/ledge stalling, you simply need to check the end stats. I know I'm not alone in thinking this was a good idea, what are other player's thoughts about this?

Steeler · Feb 13, 2009

sounds promising, actually. my only question is if 70 is too high or too low of a limit.

Aesir · Feb 13, 2009

Way to go, you did something I'm sure the fighting game community didn't think was possible. Banned more things then the melee community, awesome.

Lobos · Feb 13, 2009

It would still need to be tested though. There should be an average number where recovering/edge guarding shouldn't go over or even go near. Plus if you know that someone is intentionally planking/ledge stalling, get a TO and have them look at the stats/match. So after every match it shouldn't be needed to look at ledge grabs in a match.

Jam Stunna · Feb 13, 2009

So, if I have to legitimately grab the edge more than 70 times in order to recover, all my opponent has to do is accuse me of stalling and I forfeit? Sign me up!

RyanPF · Feb 13, 2009

Jam Stunna said:
So, if I have to legitimately grab the edge more than 70 times in order to recover, all my opponent has to do is accuse me of stalling and I forfeit? Sign me up!

If you have to recover that much, and that often, you probably lost anyway.

Fletch · Feb 13, 2009

So now the best strategy is to just grab the ledge 70 times than stop?

Aesir · Feb 13, 2009

RyanPF said:
If you have to recover that much, and that often, you probably lost anyway.

No what if I'm really good at recovering?

M@v · Feb 13, 2009

Jam Stunna said:
So, if I have to legitimately grab the edge more than 70 times in order to recover, all my opponent has to do is accuse me of stalling and I forfeit? Sign me up!

The number could always be upped. If you need to rgab the ledge 70 times in 7 minutes...your grabbing the ledge once every 6 seconds, and every 6.86 seconds in a 8 minute match, that probably means one of two things:

A. your getting 4 stocked in a 3 stock match.
B. your planking like a maniac.

We can always modify it to make it more ledgegrabs...like 90 perhaps.

Vulcan55 · Feb 13, 2009

Really?
Really?
What the **** has this community come to?
Enforcing arbitrary rules that only reduce such a game to the second best tactic.
Ledge stalling is still viable, just for 69 grabs.
And also, Jam Stunna is right. What if I need to grab the ledge 71 times while trying to legitimately recover? Saying "Oh, you probably lost anyway" Is a bull **** cop-out. That's a perfectly reasonable situation.

I have a hard time believing AlphaZealot came up with this, much less enforces it. He should know better.

Grunt · Feb 13, 2009

Who in the world is going to count?

Sanu · Feb 13, 2009

^ First, it tallies it up automatically in-game and displays the count on the results screen.

Second, a better rule: You can only grab the ledge 5 times consecutively IF your opponent is on the stage. Any more than that and it's a DQ. You can grab as many times as you want if they're off the stage.

I didn't think of this rule.

Grunt · Feb 13, 2009

Sanuzi said:
Second, a better rule: You can only grab the ledge 5 times consecutively IF your opponent is on the stage. Any more than that and it's a DQ. You can grab as many times as you want if they're off the stage.

I didn't think of this rule.

That's even worse.
If I keep getting knocked back off the stage while trying to recover, it's not Impossible to grab the ledge 5 times before he actually kills me.

RyanPF · Feb 13, 2009

Vulcan55 said:
Really?
What if I need to grab the ledge 71 times while trying to legitimately recover? Saying "Oh, you probably lost anyway" Is a bull **** cop-out. That's a perfectly reasonable situation.

Wow. Grabbing the ledge every 6.86 seconds is a perfectly reasonable situation? Just...no. I would venture to say that there has never been a 7 or 8 minute match where a player has legitimately grabbed the ledge 70 times.

Aesir · Feb 13, 2009

RyanPF said:
Wow. Grabbing the ledge every 6.86 seconds is a perfectly reasonable situation? Just...no. I would venture to say that there has never been a 7 or 8 minute match where a player has legitimately grabbed the ledge 70 times.

ITT people who fail at real life scenarios.

Banks · Feb 13, 2009

how about if you like doing ledgehop aerials and u grab the ledge every time the other guy is off, as well as regrabbing the ledge a few times each time u r getting up just to not be predictable.

a game that needs this kind of regulation doesn't seem meant to be played by people who want to win.

Grunt · Feb 13, 2009

RyanPF said:
Wow. Grabbing the ledge every 6.86 seconds is a perfectly reasonable situation? Just...no. I would venture to say that there has never been a 7 or 8 minute match where a player has legitimately grabbed the ledge 70 times.

Then how do you expect planking to just go away?

RyanPF · Feb 13, 2009

Aesir said:
ITT people who fail at real life scenarios.

This is true. XD

Find me a YouTube video of a match where a player grabs the ledge 70 times legitimately. That's all you need to do to convince me.

Vulcan55 · Feb 13, 2009

You're doing it again.
Your just saying "That won't ever happen" instead of actually thinking of a way to counter my arguments.

Aesir · Feb 13, 2009

RyanPF said:
This is true. XD

Find me a YouTube video of a match where a player grabs the ledge 70 times legitimately. That's all you need to do to convince me.

Lol Read banks reply.

He basically just ***** this rule.

AlphaZealot · Feb 13, 2009

! Credit is not to me ! Someone (I think maybe it was Edreese) brought it up like a month or two ago and the idea died. He also said he heard this is the rule that the Japanese use. Meh, either way, I'm going to do some testing-testing by which I mean I'm simply going to write down the edge grabs in my matches and see what the averages look like. Frankly I would be surprised if it goes higher than 40. On that note, if it doesn't, 70 may be to high a number, maybe 60 or 55 or 65 is better? Lets look into it and do research.

Also, regarding edge hopped air attacks: you would not approach 70 with this method. If the rule is implemented then you will simply have to adapt your style of play if you are in the .001% of people who would actually, naturally, get to 70 edge grabs without planking.

a game that needs this kind of regulation doesn't seem meant to be played by people who want to win.

This regulation ALREADY exists. Most tournaments on the EC put a blanket "no planking" or "no stalling" rule in their rulesets. This rule is also used at some (many) Melee tournaments (the "no stalling" part). So, the 70 edge grab rule replaces a subjective assessment of what edge stalling is with something concrete and easily enforceable.

No planking rule:
Hard to enforce. People complain-was he stalling for 1 minute? 3 minutes?. Hard to draw the line. A judge must be called over to make a ruling.
70 edge grab rule:
Easy to enforce. Line clearly drawn. No judge needs to be called over to make a ruling.

Ledge stalling is still viable, just for 69 grabs.

You are right. For 69 grabs you can edge stall. Guess what? Grab one more time past that point and you automatically lose. Would you take that risk? I know I wouldn't.

So, if I have to legitimately grab the edge more than 70 times in order to recover, all my opponent has to do is accuse me of stalling and I forfeit? Sign me up!

The creation of this rule makes sending the opponent off the stage repeatedly in order to rack up their edge grabs a new tactic. That would be a byproduct of this rule. It isn't a accusation (like it is with the "no stalling' or "no planking" rules) it is an easily verifable assertion. The rule isn't: if you are stalling and get over 70 edge grabs you lose. It is: if you get over 70 edge grabs you lose.

---

For me, personally, I don't really know if I want any rule in regards to planking/edge grabbing. However, in the event a tournament a going to use a "no planking" rule, then they may as well use this instead because it doesn't completely remove planking as a strategy (for example you could plank the last minutes, maybe 2, in a match), while it also allows for a concrete, verifiable, and easy to enforce rule to prevent excessive edge stalling/planking.

As it is now, people put "no planking" in their rule sets and then people like Dark Peach at COT4 get planked for a few minutes in a match and lose, and when he tries to get the rule enforced nothing can be done because no judges were around to watch. This wasn't just a problem with Dark Peach, apparently this happened to many people, including in matches in the top 16 or so.

JFox · Feb 13, 2009

i agree with this rule, and with testing perhaps think the number should even be lowered. I dont think people realize how often 70 times is...you can check tho. play a 10 min match with no stocks, and see how close you get to 70. try to win the match too, so in other words play like u were in a tourney but not planking. see how many u get in the end, i almost guarantee its no where near 70

RyanPF · Feb 13, 2009

Aesir said:
Lol Read banks reply.

He basically just ***** this rule.

I just find it humorous that people actually think that you can grab the ledge 70 times in an eight minute match without stalling.

And basically AZ said it better than I did up there.

Vulcan55 · Feb 13, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8
Way more than 70. I counted.
He didn't even start planking until halfway through the match.

TLMSheikant · Feb 13, 2009

The thing is how do u know if he was stalling or not just because he grabbed 70 times. What if was forced to grab the ledge 70 times it is completely possible and debatable. I dont think there's a fixed number on how much ledge grabs one does during a match. I say just limit ledge grabs to 5 or so and he cant grab the ledge for stalling again for a minute or so. We actually have a rule like this here in PR. It works.

RyanPF · Feb 13, 2009

Vulcan55 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8
Way more than 70. I counted.
He didn't even start planking until halfway through the match.

Good! You found a planker who would be disqualified by the new rule!

Aesir · Feb 13, 2009

He's playing to win though...>_>

besides ledge stalling isn't even that borked. Silly brawlers

NJzFinest · Feb 13, 2009

Aesir said:
Way to go, you did something I'm sure the fighting game community didn't think was possible. Banned more things then the melee community, awesome.

This^

Jam Stunna said:
So, if I have to legitimately grab the edge more than 70 times in order to recover, all my opponent has to do is accuse me of stalling and I forfeit? Sign me up!

...and that^

pockyD · Feb 13, 2009

if for some reason it's possible to legitimately grab the edge 70 times (I personally don't believe it is), then make the number higher

also, I propose that you modify it so that the # of edge grabs only matter if the timer runs out, so if you are legitimately grabbing it 70 times to edgeguard on your way to victory (which I doubt), you can still get the win if you do actually get the kill

if both players go over 70, just use the standard tiebreak rules (stocks, then percents)

edit: is it even realistically possible to grab the edge 70x to recover? that's over 20x per stock, which means your opponent is probably the worst edgeguarder ever and you suck even more for constantly being hit by them

Jam Stunna · Feb 13, 2009

pockyD said:
edit: is it even realistically possible to grab the edge 70x to recover? that's over 20x per stock, which means your opponent is probably the worst edgeguarder ever and you suck even more for constantly being hit by them

There's no rule against sucking.

There may be someday, if things continue like this.

pockyD · Feb 13, 2009

Jam Stunna said:
There's no rule against sucking.

There may be someday, if things continue like this.

it legitimately takes a lot of skill to hit someone off-stage 20 different times per stock without killing them though :laugh:

Jam Stunna · Feb 13, 2009

pockyD said:
it legitimately takes a lot of skill to hit someone off-stage 20 different times per stock without killing them though

Haha, that is true.

M@v · Feb 13, 2009

Fixed OP since AZ doesnt claim credit. Ill just label it the Japenese rule.

Dark Hart · Feb 13, 2009

That's pretty stupid.

/thread

M@v · Feb 13, 2009

Some people seem to believe this is law for some reason...its just one of the many ideas that fly around SWF. You can always modify it too.

cutter · Feb 13, 2009

Just the idea of implementing this into a serious tournament should speak volumes of the game Brawl is.

First people wanted MK banned entirely from the game. Then everybody started to ***** about DDD's infinites and wanted those banned so we could get rid of specific nightmare matchups (which IIRC is the very first ban to do something like this)... and now we are implementing a ledge-grabbing rule for the same reason.

Jam Stunna is right. It won't be long until we have a rule that says you can't suck lmao.

As a community, we really should be questioning if Brawl is really worth playing if we have to implement SO MANY ****ING REGULATIONS just to make the game remotely playable.

JFox · Feb 13, 2009

Vulcan55 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8
Way more than 70. I counted.
He didn't even start planking until halfway through the match.

I counted too, and this is a perfect video to show why this system works.

SK 92 grabbed the edge a grand total of 10 times (3 of which were to try to stop plank's planking in the last minute of the game)

Plank's first life he only grabbed the ledge a total 7 times! His second life 13 more! (also plank plank's at the end of both of his first two stocks, otherwise the number would be even lower) Thats a total of only 20 ledge grabs in two stocks, with very small amounts of planking. Now taking an average of those, thats about 10 times per stock. If he had played without excessive planking, his total would probably be around 30!

Guess how many times plank grabbed the ledge in JUST his last stock (cuz he was planking). 71 TIMES! 71 times!!!! There were a total of 91 edgegrabs from plank, 71 of which were from planking on the last stock.

This seems like a pretty good rule if u ask me.

Vulcan55 · Feb 13, 2009

The video was directed at some guy who said it wasn't possible to grab the ledge 70+ times in a real match. It has nothing to do with how the rule works.
Even if it does, it's still a stupid rule.

RyanPF · Feb 13, 2009

Vulcan55 said:
The video was directed at some guy who said it wasn't possible to grab the ledge 70+ times in a real match. It has nothing to do with how the rule works.
Even if it does, it's still a stupid rule.

Me said:
Find me a YouTube video of a match where a player grabs the ledge 70 times legitimately.

Me said:
I just find it humorous that people actually think that you can grab the ledge 70 times in an eight minute match without stalling.

The quick brown fox.

pockyD · Feb 13, 2009

Vulcan55 said:
The video was directed at some guy who said it wasn't possible to grab the ledge 70+ times in a real match. It has nothing to do with how the rule works.
Even if it does, it's still a stupid rule.

I think that by "real match", he meant a match that didn't involve some explicit form of "stalling"

Aside from the fact that banning stalling is stupid to begin with, what's extra stupid about this specific rule?

The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

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