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Unofficial Sheik Matchup thread Week 1: Meta Knight

PeeP

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Though we have a stickied thread with some matchup numbers listed we don't really have any strategies or reasons for the number.

I know nobody really knows me, but if people want to contribute that would be cool and hopefully this might become a good matchup thread and be stickied.

I'm gonna start with MK and then I'll take requests/continue through the tier list.


I will use the format of DanGR's matchup thread found at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186338


Here goes...

Meta Knight



Ankoku's rating: 35-65

Discuss. I'll add a summary in a week.
 

PeeP

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Nah it does'nt matter demodemo I'm gonna make a thread w/ a big long summary of each matchup and then link it to the OP like the lucario boards thread does here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205287


On that note I'm gonna start the discussion even though I have not that much knowledge.

Meta Knight is a very hard match-up for Sheik. MKs priority and range is hard for Sheik to handle and Sheik gets gimped pretty bad in this matchup.

Sheik does have a few advantages such as needles going through tornado and a pretty early(for sheik) tipper up-smash kill off the top on the relatively-light MK.

I reccomend counter-picking Corneria for the low ceiling and small sides so their recoveries become pretty equal.

Good luck with this match-up. I would call this a 35-65ish.
 

Zankoku

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Sheik is harder to gimp than you might think >_>

And wtf Corneria. Not only is it a terrible stage for Sheik's needles, but Meta Knight has a much easier time landing his grounded Shuttle Loop than Sheik will have landing a tipper usmash. Low ceiling and small sides just means that safe KO attack potential becomes that much more emphasized.
 

PeeP

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See thats my point I am not any good at this game and so my Theory Bros. Brawl doesn't work out at all.

If you add to it yourself the rest of the community (including me) can learn from you and other good sheik players and improve.

I would really enjoy your input.
 

clowsui

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PeeP ankoku isn't really required to have any responsibilities, don't try to put any on him

wow screw metaknight, what a ghei character
if sheik is your main then i have no words for you lol, have fun with this matchup because on game 2 you're almost guaranteed to lose if they stay MK and then put you on a dumb stage

anyways some thoughts on this matchup

- flat stages with less platforms, that way metaknight is forced to approach in a specific way ie at you from the air or at you from the ground, none of this through platforms junk. i suggest FD if they don't ban it, followed by Halberd, followed by SV, followed by PS1

- with proper shield tilting habits tornado is dangerous to use against sheik unless she's put in a bad shielding position, getting needles'd for 20% or getting straight up grabbed in tornado lag is annoying. mk can retreat with the tornado though...but once he floats away he's not really going to come back so just charge needles.

- speaking of needles: use them in this matchup. needle camp intelligently; make an effort to create pressure for the MK seeing as this is your basic option against him that's always guaranteed to do something good at mid-range or long-range. don't use it at short range. needles are always fun to throw at MKs when he's away from the stage because they put him in an awkward position where he has to waste a jump or two to recover the lost height OR he can just drop below. either way it's just kind of funny and a smart move to do anyways since it's a free 18%

- you must recover (!!) in MULTIPLE ways. if you're at a lower percent you can afford to get hit, so just keep mixing up your recoveries so that later on he's guessing. hell even at higher percents just make an effort to mix it up. MK can punish predictable recoveries in so many different ways -___- Also try not to recover from below that much, smart MKs will notice that once you cross a specific line your chain is no longer a very safe option if they go down there...

- i don't care that you think it's a kill move. when you get a grab, don't throw them. just release, dacus. it's a free 30% each time, +5% for pummels if he's at a higher percentage. the chances for a grab are so slim in this matchup that you will have a refreshed usmash EVERY time.

- ftilt. yeahhhhh his ftilt is kind of broken too, even moreso than yours. at lower percents just double ftilt -> aerial and stuff. if he makes dumb approaches just ftilt -> dsmash him or something. of course, lock when possible; though getting the usmash may be difficult?

- chain is something i have yet to test. i'll be recording against OS probably on sunday (and i'll most likely forget what I'm saying here -__-) so i'll get back to you guys on that. in general you're just going to have to be really careful about chain, he attacks faster than you retract so >___>;

- badly spaced bairs get you up B'd. don't space your bairs badly. alternative options for MK for badly spaced bairs are: at mid range, SH Fair, if he's feeling risky at mid range, uair, if you're really bad at spacing, nair. if you're at long range and spamming bairs at him you're doing it wrong, he can just dash shield under you unless he's in inital dash...but trying to space with his initial dash range in mind is just crazy because all of his aerial options + his grab are dumb good

- don't hesitate to go after MK if he starts recovering low...if it's an obvious loop then just kinda drop off and bair, most of the time you'll clash with the top of the loop and you'll get sent towards the stage while he goes away for a few moments. it's only 8% with bad knockback, your bair hits him for a good amount too right? with the rush if it's obvious that it's going to happen you're going to want to try and drop -> chain with some chain left to retract.

- if you have to throw...dthrow or something. use fthrows when you feel as though you've got a hang of their DI patterns or you just wanna try and throw them off. throws should be used to get a general sense of whether they know how to properly DI and stuff...if they know how to DI useless moves like Sheik's grab then I would say it's likely that they know how to DI the other stuff though this may be wrong. just don't try to throw offensively, instead just find time to charge needles.

- use zelda if you want. it doesn't make this any easier really because you lose the advantage but gain it in other areas. i'd stay with this ninja because she's fast and stuff not to mention needles =)

- jab cancelling or dtilt shield pressure might lead to some 623P shenanigans from MK, so just jab cancel to grab works. i dunno when you're ever going to pressure MK's shield so much that he forgets to grab though, sheik's shield pressure options are pretty piss poor against MK

- i dunno about using nair/utilt/jabs in this...i'm especially wary of nair since it's low priority is a pain. it's startup and nice damage when strong is pretty cool though, i'm just really not sure when to use it vs. MK, ever. maybe OOS? UTilt I'm not sure about either, the jab combo too. UTilt maybe when he's flying at you with the glide? someone test that.

- FAirrrrrrr....I dislike this aerial against people who have good range. I play against people who MAIN character with good range. therefore someone inform us about this.

- UAir is okay, just don't be surprised when dairs start coming your way.

- against the shuttle loop you'll want to hold towards the stage for an easy DI, sheik's light though so be sure to DI it right. when you're descending you're going to have to play a guessing game, which is unfortunate given metaknight's ridiculous options. with dsmash DI straight up, it's always sending you horizontal. screw dair, don't DI that move just get the **** away. fair tap DI out. uair just...try to get away >_> nair you should be getting hit with as a kill or punishment so play smart to avoid this, it's a single hitter so DI is not happening, really. i never observe the trajectory because most times when i get hit by a nair it's in a situation where once i get hit i'm fukked.

- when doing the getup most metaknights will either grab, dsmash, fsmash or dtilt/ftilt. getup -> shield will get rid of a lot of these options. just...try to keep them guessing so that you're not hit by any of these. meta****'s ledge traps + sheik's terribad options to escape out of ledge traps = ouch. don't do full ledge hop or ledge hop aerial btw, it's really stupid. ledge hop airdodges are also not that great. so either shield, roll, or getup -> dodge. get up to jab might push him back even in shield? i dunno, just don't ever full ledge hop or ledge hop air dodge or ledge hop aerial.

in general metaknight is dumb. just....don't try to do anything ******** and stick to the basics: needle camping, critical spacing with ftilts/critical decay with ftilts, and good shield/di habits. the only real "gimmick"/trick here is GR -> Usmash. Do it consistently so as to get the tipper; the later you do input it (though the window is small there's enough time where you hitting him will depend on when you input) the more of the "side" boxes you'll get. ideally you want the tipper or the double/triple hit though the multi-hits will be a problem if they're at low enough percents.
 

Zankoku

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Regarding Zelda, Meta Knight has a much easier time playing around you and your shield than with Sheik, and will abuse this because failure to do so will result in getting KO'd by a single attack. Keep this in mind, and only transform when necessary (that is if you'd decayed your normal KO options like nair, bair, dsmash and haven't properly decayed your ftilt for a usmash KO setup).
 

PeeP

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PeeP ankoku isn't really required to have any responsibilities, don't try to put any on him.
I realize Ankoku doesn't HAVE to conrtibute it would just be great, because of his skill and knowledge.

BTW thank you for your input on this thread it is much appreciated.
 

Zankoku

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I have no skill, and all my knowledge is knowing what to do when things go wrong.
 

Zankoku

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The あんこく is referring to just a thing (darkness, with the kanji of 暗黒), not an actual name, so hiragana actually fits. My tag was randomly decided on a whim because its hiragana consisted of four characters and could thus fit on a Melee nametag.
 

Voyeur

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alrighty then, sounds cool. Took 3 years in Highschool, didn't follow up though. Been there my freshman summer as well, so beautiful, Japan that is. I got my name based off my favorite(only) fetish ever since I played RS classic in 2000 haha....any who..

I think we should start evolving past the pure Sheik ideologies and know that most to all of us probably go Sheik to Zelda and thus should bring into retrospect that mind set into matchups.

So who is better against Meta Knight to begin with Sheik or Zelda? I know the princess can punish but needles and chain out prioritize the tornado. I think it should at least be a fair 40 :: 60 though.
Once again, haven't fought many pro Meta Knights so not much to say other then my experience from another game.

Popular characters such as MK, and since he's the "best", mean he'll have a predictable pattern in moves and repetitive style. Other MK players who also want to excel will follow these patterns after the players who make MK shine the most. Stale moves though doesn't equal unusable or un-KO-able at all. That being said though, you still can just devote a lot of time to watching the majority of MK's movements and even play as him for a bit, then you can out predict, out maneuver and let your mind games take their toll. Some times going 'Balls out' is your best choice. Keep an eye on MK, read your opponent to the best of your abilities and keep to the ground best you can.
 

Zankoku

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Sheik generally performs better with quicker ground normals, aerials, and grab, but if not properly set up for the usmash KO, then transforming to Zelda will be optimal at the higher %s unless you're willing to keep poking at Meta Knight until an out-of-shield nair or something kills him.
 

Voyeur

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yeah I know, I asked for Affinity to bring that up like couple weeks back actually >__< so we can wait to see what they discuss and do it all together.
 

PeeP

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Thanks for all of your input guys!

By the way, can anyone tell me how to change the title of the thread to reflect the character we are discussing?
 

rathy Aro

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Thanks for all of your input guys!

By the way, can anyone tell me how to change the title of the thread to reflect the character we are discussing?
Just edit the first post and change what it says in the title box.

When does sheik tipper upsmash kill MK and when do Zelda's smashes kill MK? I'd figure it out myself, but I have no wii. If I do find out I'll edit this post with the numbers.

edit:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5709253&highlight=kill+percent#post5709253
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200331&highlight=kill+percents

Using those two links as sources tipper upsmash seems like a better kill move even when stale, though I'm not certain about the difficulty of actually getting the grab. Might jab cancel grab be reliable? What are other reliable (if any) way to get a grab in this matchup?
 

Blistering Speed

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Go onto the actual edit page (not just opening a window on the page) or you can double click the title when viewing the whole forum.

Zelda is only strictly necessary if you haven't kept Sheik fresh and decayed in the right way, depending on circumstance I often go pure Sheik for stocks. Keep F Tilt decayed, keep D Smash and N Air fresh. Grab release to DACUS even when he's not in KO percent, only in very isolated cases will you hit with the U Smash for the would-have-been kill before it's fully refreshed again.

Your generaly damage racking should spacing B Airs and needle camping like a *****, when he's close the usual jab and F Tilt mixup serves well, you should always be looking for the grab aswell in this match, they're rare but that DACUS damage really contributes.

Generally learn MK as a character, know when to attack on reaction after the shuttleloop where he's vulnerable, tilt the shield for tornado, be ever cautious of what moves he's in range for etc.

If you can get good with the chain, then you're the future of this matchup, congratulations.

Clowsui covered most of the little nuances in this match.
 

Tristan_win

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Just edit the first post and change what it says in the title box.

When does sheik tipper upsmash kill MK and when do Zelda's smashes kill MK? I'd figure it out myself, but I have no wii. If I do find out I'll edit this post with the numbers.
Around 70%, with no di....I think.

edit: I might as well check~

edit2: 71% I was close.
 

rathy Aro

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edit:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5709253&highlight=kill+percent#post5709253
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200331&highlight=kill+percents

Using those two links as sources tipper upsmash seems like a better kill move even when stale, though I'm not certain about the difficulty of actually getting the grab. Might jab cancel grab be reliable? What are other reliable (if any) way to get a grab in this matchup?
It's like 76 percent with no di and a fresh upsmash.
 

Voyeur

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And Tipper with Grab release + DACUS is also available on MK like mentioned before, which can get you a kill with or with out DI at 86-90% fresh moves and all.

Learning when and how to abuse your chain, needle camping, keeping it to the ground or space with Bair, getting the kills with Grab release + DACUS. I think with most the MK's out there are a lot of people going off of hype with mediocre skill to little above average, so with your Sheik game being at pro level and the best you can, you honestly should win the match since skill will out-shine tier in that situation.

F-tilt locking to Nair or Rapid Jabs is also good damage rack ups
 

PeeP

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I'm gonna post the matchups in the following form:

1) Marchup Ranking
2) How to Win
3) What not to do
4) What to watch out for
5) Should you switch?
6) Counterpicks and Bans
7) Synopsis

If there is anything you want to change about this tell me.
 

Zankoku

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Rapid jabs are never good unless pressuring someone standing by a ledge or pseudo-wall-infiniting. Don't ever do it intentionally in a neutral position. >_>
 

Voyeur

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Rapid jabs are never good unless pressuring someone standing by a ledge or pseudo-wall-infiniting. Don't ever do it intentionally in a neutral position. >_>
that's what I'm saying baby cakes. Right when they're a tad off the ledge in the air since MK likes to play that game, and edge guard/gimp is one of Sheik's excelling key points. Though MK's is clearly more dominate aerial wise, if you're confident enough you can play that mind game and like I said get the Jab lock.


In this match up any way, I do find it effective in a neutral standing position after 2 Ftilts to Mario or even marth, then cancel and try to grab or hope they DI'ed up and away for an SH nair.
 

Blistering Speed

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that's what I'm saying baby cakes.
0_o
In this match up any way, I do find it effective in a neutral standing position after 2 Ftilts to Mario or even marth, then cancel and try to grab or hope they DI'ed up and away for an SH nair.
Wouldn't said characters be spamming their respective Up Bs? It'd be better therefore to shield and bait it.
 

Voyeur

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0_o

Wouldn't said characters be spamming their respective Up Bs? It'd be better therefore to shield and bait it.

XD idk what made me say that, I was just messing around though haha.

And yeah, that's why I usually only keep it at the quick 2 Ftilts because of Dolphin Slash and all, usually they're still trying to DI some times instead of thinking Up+B, but yeah, shield and bait would be good too.
 

Voyeur

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Not at all. What you said was

to which I respond that rapid jabs is only good in like, two situational positions. Neither of which are likely to happen during an ftilt lock.
I need to start wording myself better and stop typing as if tone of voice and diction as audible.

Yes I did mean that you could get a low number, usually 2 Ftilt hits, then go for some quick Jabs for damage, cancel and then what not. Or even Jab-Jab, crouch cancel to grab.
I know MK's Up+B can get him out of pretty much a lot of stuff though. But it still can be done at least once if the person isn't use to playing Sheik or quick to react with the proper counter move.

I said "that's what I'm saying baby cakes" as in reference to the use of Jabs in which you typed them.
e.g. "I got some subway, hungry?"-you
"That's what I'm talking about." me
I didn't mean what you typed, is what I meant =P


EDIT: back on topic.
Going all Sheik is the better choice since Grab release to DACUS is available for nice KO's at 90% or so. Needles and Chain cancel and out prioritize Tornado, 30% to 70% is guaranteed Ftilt Lock.
Pretty much the only 'advantages' I can re-cap to think of.
 

Zankoku

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If you're considering suboptimal options against an inexperienced opponent, you're putting gimmicks into your game that, while they will make beating new players that much easier, will not take you far in tournament.

Considering many players will attempt some variation of upward DI against the ftilt lock, they will pretty much automatically jump out after getting hit by the second jab, because the rapid jab startup is too long and they will not get caught in it.

ftilt jab grab is an almost-reasonable gimmick option simply because some players won't DI or jump or whatever immediately upon getting hit by two weak attacks, but then again other players habitually grab or dsmash on getting hit by a single jab, which can be dangerous for you.
 

Voyeur

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You're right on the fact I take that gamble, and even in the midst of the utmost competitive stand points, but I personally haven't gone on to any major Brawl tournaments. I want to though, and I'll look forward to getting my *** kicked so I can get the experience needed to become better.

I'll remember and keep that advice, but I have also found that the farther you get into the Pro state of any game, people tend to forget the simple-stupid tricks that once caught them off guard because they don't show up as much, and can throw them off some times.

Any who, either way you look at it though the MK match up is going to be tough, even if your skill is high compared to the average player you may be facing.
 

Charoo

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use the chain. Don't forget to do the aerial one.
needles and fair mk for edge guarding. It works.
vanish if you can read the tornado. Sometimes they land near u, sometimes they land away.
ftilt spacing. Don't abuse it or they'll just ftilt u back.
fair oos. You'll be surprise how many time you can punish their aerials.

go to castle siege with the attack song on. Don't go there if that song isn't on.
 

-Mars-

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I certainly hope that you aren't going to leave all of a sudden after a couple weeks and never update this<_<.
 

PeeP

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I'm going to update this with the summary tomorrow morning probably. I'll take requests for the next matchup until then. If I don't get any I will just go to Snake. Keep Discussing!

I'm sorry I haven't updated in a while I was on a cruise and had no internent connection.
 
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