Yoshi v. Pikachu

This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Pikachu matchup.

As i said a very long time ago

after brawling anther
i didn't think it was an even match up


I'll write my opinion soon

suscribed.

Epic repost from the previous matchup thread.

I know some people disagreed with what I posted, so if they could post their discrepancies here and continue the discussion, that would be awesome.

Therefore, without further ado:

How to Beat Pikachu

This matchup is a pretty gutsy matchup for a game like Brawl; as much of it can be played long-range as can be played just centimeters between the two characters. This is probably going to be one of the toughest matches Yoshi has, but for different reasons than character qualities. This matchup extends beyond the abilities of the characters and reaches into the abilities of the players. This matchup requires persistence, consistency, accuracy, foresight, and plenty of risk assessment. One might say that these qualities are necessary for all matchups, but I find none that reach into the heart of actual combat like Yoshi v. Pikachu.

First things first. Pikachu does not outcamp Yoshi on most horizontal stages. There, I said it. I don't care if you don't believe me. It's the truth. Yoshi can fire off eggs at the same time that Pikachu jolts; even if Pikachu runs, Yoshi can still keep up with the fleeing opponent by using his best weapon against Pikachu's incoming Thunder Jolt; his jab. Yoshi's jab stops most forms of projectile camping cold and not many players realize this. Smaller stages, stages with lots of platforms (or the moving one on Smashville), and vertical stages are where you can find Pikachu beating you out on the projectile part of the game. Pikachu not getting hit is fine, but giving Pikachu more unique angles at which to fire projectiles from makes your job not getting hit extremely hard since, in order to camp Pikachu in return, you must be standing still. Yoshi cannot camp Pikachu while moving; it does not work. Throw eggs and jab incoming jolts--that is the recipe for success long range. The fight won't last that way for long. If you can keep up not getting hit and manage to land an egg, even just occasionally, you will find that the egg's superior damage right off the bat (combined with using jabs on the jolts to keep eggs mostly fresh) will eventually force Pikachu to enter mid-range combat in order to gain some momentum. Even the most patient Pikachu players know when something like jolt camping just isn't working the way it should and they are smart enough to know how to enter mid-range to neutralize the situation and try again.

Once Pikachu moves mid-range, things get difficult. Pikachu's superior priority at mid-range is essential to his battle plan. High pressure aerials and trots can make any player second guess themselves at this range, since one hit usually leads to a few more and although the hits may not do lots of damage, one can certainly feel the momentum of the match change. Spotdodging at mid-range against Pikachu is generally a very bad idea and you can expect them to stay grounded when attempting to bait and punish defensive maneuvers like shielding, rolling, and spotdodging. Trotting upsmashes and dash grabs can be very characteristic of mid-range aggression by Pikachu. Forward aerial also makes an annoying addition to his arsenal, leaving Yoshi locked on many options, both ground and air-based. What makes it even more difficult is that Pikachu can stop almost on a dime and shift to a passive-aggressive mode or go straight into defensive spacing depending on how Yoshi reacts. Passive-aggression usually entails baiting ground approaches into carefully spaced forward smashes and pivot grabs. Defensive spacing options include down tilt (sometimes canceled into a retreating forward smash), neutral or retreating forward aerials, and retreating jumping jolts.

Oh, yeah...I forgot about the Quick Attack Cancel. By the way, this move is your friend. "Now he's off the deep end more than usual," you are probably saying to yourself. Pikachu's dreaded Quick Attack Cancel strikes fear into the hearts of many characters and rightfully so. It's quite potent against a good deal of characters and players. Here's the skinny on this technique, though. There's nothing to be worried about unless you've fallen and missed a tech (which is entirely your fault; don't let anybody tell you otherwise). I'd say out of most of the movement techniques in this game, it is one of the easiest to take advantage of. The weapon of choice for Yoshi here against this technique and against most of Pikachu's mid-range assaults is the ever-reliable pivot grab. Pivot grab stops aggressive Quick Attack Cancels cold and punishes reckless dashes in. In fact, grabbing in general tends to keep Yoshi's viability at mid-range in this matchup somewhat intact. From dash grabbing on passive-aggressive trots, to standing grabs for spotdodges, and pivots for expected aggression, Yoshi can and should rely on intelligent grabbing to keep him safe in this tumultuous area of the battle. This is the area where Pikachu has the easiest time and where he has the highest chance of shifting momentum his way; expect opposing Pikachu players to abuse this range to their utmost ability.

Close range is where Yoshi can really shine. However, this is still no walk in the park. The biggest part about this matchup that may be discouraging for many Yoshi players is that there is no rest for either player if both are playing intelligently and to their characters' strengths. In the Snake matchup, you can go easy when you spot your grab openings. In the Meta Knight matchup, you can go easy when you are waiting for Meta Knight to return to the edge or when you are chaingrabbing. In this matchup, even in your most advantageous area of the matchup, there is no rest. Yoshi is blessed with the ability to create an early momentum lead in the match very easily; keeping that lead as the battle shifts into different phases is key to winning matches and sets. Close range, Pikachu will be working on lots of obvious aggression. The reason it can still be potent is because of Pikachu's good priority, great attack speed, and the ability for his attacks to flow into each other naturally for the most part. One can expect lots of grabs, rapid jabs, forward tilts, dashing neutral airs, and the occasional upsmash. The only defensive maneuvers present are shield and spotdodge. Spotdodges will be followed up most likely by jabs or (more often) by downsmashing (which you should be prepared to DI at any point in time). Shield is followed up mostly back out of shield tactics like up aerial, back aerial (sparingly), and the dangerous neutral air.

Yoshi can lock down the close range fight with some very simple and effective tactics. Yoshi's most reliable and dangerous weapon at this phase in the battle is his jab. Single jabs tap on Pikachu's shield to prevent OoS retaliation on apply almost infuriating levels of pressure. Successful double jabs lead to highly successful dash grabs and dash attacks. Jabbing stops many of Pikachu's close range ground options safely on block and provides ridiculous amounts of disruption to any momentum he may have been trying to muster at this range. Aside from jabs, Yoshi has his entire tilt game at his disposal. While down tilt is probably the least useful because of its excruciating lag time, both forward and up tilt provide protection and offensive support, making Yoshi's job at this range considerably easier. Downsmash also makes a guest appearance here as a reliable tool to take advantage of a situation where you may not have any other options and can use it to force edgeguards or tech rolls. The sparingly used short hop down aerial can do massive shield damage and short hop rising neutral airs can give Yoshi lots of burst momentum and even some surprise KOs near the edge to take advantage of short ranged blunders by Pikachu. As Pikachu learns that close-range is not the best bet for this fight, the player will either lean toward extreme aggression or extreme defense. Pikachu can easily retreat and reset by Quick Attacking up and away to stabilize the momentum and try to spot some openings in your play. On the other hand, Pikachu can try to force his way through your options by abusing super high priority aerials that can take advantage of Yoshi's blind spots, hoping to either knock you into mid-range, off the edge, or into your shield...these are all places where Pikachu can begin to space himself into a comfortable range and attempt to fall into a rhythm. If, for some reason, you are getting forced out of close range, you should just run out and attempt to reset and long range. Rolling and excessive spotdodging or airdodging will get you punished in a match-altering way and you honestly can't afford to make simple mistakes like these; remember, if you have to get out of close range, don't walk (or roll)--run.

Now that I've talked about the three basic horizontal phases (long, mid, and close range), I'll discuss the two vertical phases (ground level and aerial level) and the three "tactical" phases (center stage, the edge, and platforms) of the match.

Yoshi's job in this match is to stay grounded. If you're a fan of Prince of Tennis, you can appreciate the mystifying effectiveness of Tezuka Zone (although I prefer the more comical movie version). The long and short of the technique is that its user stays in one place and is able to force returns of the tennis ball back to itself without using any unnecessary movements to hit the ball back. Similarly, Yoshi wants to stay on the ground and avoid unnecessary dashing, dodging, DRs, trots, or many other tricks. Jumping is also bad for Yoshi in this matchup similarly to how jumping is bad for Snake in his matchup against Yoshi--there are too many ways to take advantage once the character hits the ground to try to make unnecessary jumping a viable tactic or even an option. Movement to different parts of the stage or to different phases of the matchup is certainly necessary, but I'm talking about using movements that don't have a direct and significant purpose; those kids of movements have no place in this matchup. For instance, the Egg Toss Slide is a very fun and somewhat effective technique for Yoshi users who can see the value in retreating while applying some form of pressure. Should this technique be used when you suspect Pikachu will stay at mid-range or retreat to long range? No. You should use this technique when you KNOW Pikachu will either stay where he is or retreat. The onus is on Yoshi to keep himself as invulnerable as possible; Pikachu can quite literally camp out your movements and take advantage of them from a safe distance with his good speed and quick-starting moves. Likewise, Yoshi can wait out Pikachu's response to feints or movement by observing without leaving himself open while performing techniques that may or may not work and have a high chance of crippling his chances at keeping stock.

Aerial combat in this matchup is no joke. Know what you're getting into. This part of the match is tough. Similar to the matchup with Mr. Game and Watch, Yoshi really has no business being in the air with Pikachu at the same time. I don't care who you are or who you play, there is no real reason to justify Yoshi and Pikachu both jumping at each other at the same time. Pikachu will win most times hands down, not only because of his priority, but because of the flexibility of his aerials. He is well suited with many of his aerials to tackle more than one area surrounding his character with a single aerial. Yoshi does not have this luxury and is very restricted in which aerials he can use and when. He is further restricted by his environment and Pikachu's medium weight (which alters how Yoshi will have to use aerials as Pikachu's damage increases; lighter weight means more adjustments with fewer percent increments as the stock goes on). When Pikachu is in the air, you need to assess what the player is trying to accomplish. It's more than a simple, "Hey, he's using a back aerial." The depth of your thinking needs to see the purpose behind the moves. Is the back aerial forcing a particular type of DI? Maybe the Pikachu player knows you are unaware of how to DI the back aerial and is using that to rack up damage and chip away at your patience or confidence? Since this match is decided more by the players than the characters, you need to be able to see past the simplicity of the moves just being performed. There are lots of ulterior motives on both sides to using moves and forcing moves...Pikachu can use his aerials to great effect in this particular part of the battle and you can expect the best Pikachu players to abuse this relentlessly. Once you have ascertained the intent behind their aerials (other than to "do damage"), you can begin to examine your options. For example, if a dashing neutral air is meant to knock you into mid-range or into your shield, you can pre-empt this by meeting the Pikachu with a dashing upsmash of your own instead of getting pushed into a situation where you're not in control. You might trade hits, but Pikachu will learn sooner or later that you can, indeed, read into his strategies and that future attempts at anything will have to be accompanied by a Plan B or by failure.

Great post, I see nothing wrong with it.

I think the Pikachu has to be really on point with his game to have the advantage in this matchup. Pikachu needs to keep Yoshi away from him but not too far, like Shiri already said.

Reserved for my take on the yoshi vs pika matchup (if im not lazy).

We are discussing pika now...and even though you have everything we would like you to contribute to the actual thread. I'll quote that post in the thread, but i would like other's opinions.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230889

lol deadest match-up thread? Europe is the area with Pikachu as the least played character.
so I bump this thread to get some information, there is no way Pikas is that unplayed at all D: D:

He's not unplayed, but everyone tries to copy Anther and fails, so the matchup is pretty dead.

Once Pikachu players start developing their own styles of play that don't revolve around gimmicks, people will start becoming slightly dangerous with him and he will appear in tournaments more often despite the heavy Meta Knight presence we see these days.

PikaPika! said:

Reserved for my take on the yoshi vs pika matchup (if im not lazy).

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LOL @ the post date. Mad old.

I haven't seen a top pika player in a long time. I don't think this MU has EVER been really played at high levels. @_@

Closest thing was Ace and Anther at SNES... but it was a $5 MM. =\
Wasn't recorded, AS USUAL.

Uh... ESAM? Hello?

This MU is weird as hell, mostly because Yoshi is weird as hell.

Pika's advantage 55:45.

The CG isn't much of a threat since it is minuscule damage and offstage isn't a bad position for Pikachu (Since our recovery is amazing). Eggs are a pain in the balls, but our jolts aren't that easy for you guys either. Since Yoshi has no OOS options, Pikachu can shield pressure Yoshi pretty well, and he is fast enough that if you roll we can catch it and still hit you.

QAC isn't that safe against Yoshi because of the big hurtbox Pikachu becomes and the big sweeping hitboxes of Yoshi's U-smash, F-smash, and bair. If we blatantly run in Yoshi's pivot grab covers it. Pikachu has to mix up his approaches. His safest approach is running with T-jolt since Yoshi's shield grab is crap-tacular. If we have you above us we win. Yoshi doesn't get that much of an advantage the other way because we can QA to the ground or to the ledge. Our dair isn't that bad either. It'll trade with uair (Which is obviously bad for us if we are at like...110%)

Now for polt!

If we have a lead he technically can't camp us. Thats good right? Oh and then theres the Chain grab. Thats about all i know about this matchup. iirc i hated it tho

I don't think Pikachu has an f-throw chain-grab on us. If he did, I'm pretty sure ESAM would have done it to me plenty of times, but he only does one f-throw to an up-smash (which we can sort of counter using our DJ heavy armor to n-air him after it hits; I use this for Kirby's f-throw -> u-air combo, too).

ESAM, let me MM you at ZP so that I can get a better picture of the match-up. We like never play against each other. =/

I seem to get grabbed just fine

Poltergust said:

Uh... ESAM? Hello?

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Poltergust said:

ESAM, let me MM you at ZP so that I can get a better picture of the match-up. We like never play against each other. =/

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Derp da derp da derp.

I'd like to add to this MU that 87% of any match that involves a pika will involve said pika initiating with a FH thunderjolt. Punish.

Yoshi is one of the easiest characters to grab imo.

Polt, what are you talking about never play? We play in almost like...every tournament.

Pikachu doesn't have any sort of CG against Yoshi. F-throw > U-smash is guaranteed, but if we don't do it frame perfectly it trades with your DJ nair. You guys should probably always try that since there isn't anything to lose.

For your CPs I recommend FD and Castle Siege. Walk-offs are scary in this match-up. If you guys get us in the position of walk-offs, DON'T GRAB ATTACK! If people are mashing out fast enough we will get a ground release which ruins it. You don't need damage if it is a free stock!! Make sure not to do that. If you guys want position just om nom them without the biting. Pretend its Ice Cream, just savor it in your mouth until you are done with it.

Z'zgashi said:

How in the world do you get grabbed? I get grabbed maybe twice each battle

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Bairs that didn't poke, badly spaced fsmashes/eggs/grabs/aerials. Spot dodged Grabs (mostly dashgrabs.) Basically when i try to do something and fail.

ESAM said:

Polt, what are you talking about never play? We play in almost like...every tournament.

Pikachu doesn't have any sort of CG against Yoshi. F-throw > U-smash is guaranteed, but if we don't do it frame perfectly it trades with your DJ nair. You guys should probably always try that since there isn't anything to lose.

For your CPs I recommend FD and Castle Siege. Walk-offs are scary in this match-up. If you guys get us in the position of walk-offs, DON'T GRAB ATTACK! If people are mashing out fast enough we will get a ground release which ruins it. You don't need damage if it is a free stock!! Make sure not to do that. If you guys want position just om nom them without the biting. Pretend its Ice Cream, just savor it in your mouth until you are done with it.

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More like... every 3-4 tournaments. I think you are confusing yourself with Chaz. =P

Anyways, I like Battlefield more than FD. I dunno, even though our chain-grab isn't as effective there, the platforms seem to really help me take cover from your TJs and make approaching easier.

As for a ban for Yoshi, Halberd is the obvious choice. Stage hazards that Pikachu can easily knock you into via throws, d-tilt, or f-tilt = bad. Semi-solid main platform that helps Pikachu QAC = bad. Low ceiling which makes a up-smash to Thunder string kill off the top at 60% = VERY bad.

Z'zgashi said:

EDIT: @ESAM: Yoshi cant ground release at all, it isnt possible. All of Yoshi's releases are air releases so we can just nom nom away all we like

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No, grounded grab-releases are possible if a) we pummel; and b) the person grabbed breaks out immediately (not sure how many frames it takes until they are air-released, though).

ESAM has gotten a lot of ground breaks on me.

Well, as long as you don't pummel, your opponent can never be ground-released. Useful for characters we can actually do stuff to after an air-release.

...Not so useful to not pummel against Pikachu, though. The chain-grab doesn't do much already. =/

It isn't exactly a ground release. Ground release and grab-break releases are different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5yk6dlZc_U 2:31 I get a ground release. Yay super fast mashing!

Halberd helps us both the same. Yoshi can thrive on the vertical kills much like Pikachu can. The trade off is about the same, and since Pikachu doesn't have many grab combos, Pika can't really put you in bad situations with it.

I would recommend banning...I don't really know. Polt, what do you normally ban against me?

Z'zgashi said:

EDIT: @ESAM: Yoshi cant ground release at all, it isnt possible. All of Yoshi's releases are air releases so we can just nom nom away all we like

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It is definitely possible. I've got some people down in eugene that are pro at doing it. But it's so easy to react to it that they usually end up getting pummelled or side tilted.

ESAM said:

It isn't exactly a ground release. Ground release and grab-break releases are different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5yk6dlZc_U 2:31 I get a ground release. Yay super fast mashing!

Halberd helps us both the same. Yoshi can thrive on the vertical kills much like Pikachu can. The trade off is about the same, and since Pikachu doesn't have many grab combos, Pika can't really put you in bad situations with it.

I would recommend banning...I don't really know. Polt, what do you normally ban against me?

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I ban Halberd. >_>

Polt, against me have you ever tried DJing out of thunder when I do like...U-smash or U-tilt thunder?

No, bad idea. It knocks us out a mid-percentages. =/

That sucks.