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A Complete Guide to DI and Survival (updated Mar. 6th 2009)

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Goals:

The main goal of this project is to provide SWF with knowledge on how to properly DI multi-hit moves, and killing moves in order to maximize each of your stocks usage.

Before trying to understand this thread, you will need to understand how to DI and how DI works. This informative video sums it up in a nice visual presentation for those who are not capable of learning via detailed literature.



Update: 03/06/09 The appendix moves are finally listed and now I can start filling in the blanks. New graphs and pictures make this more reader-friendly. Special thanks to SativaJoe for the help!

Update: 02/21/09 The guide has been updated to be clearer, more accurate and use correct terms. Summaries have also been added. Thanks to Colin for the help. Niko_K also seems to have dropped out of the project.

Important Notice: The appendixes remain yet to be done, and shall be finished within a reasonable timeframe(probably 2 weeks). We would also like SBR/smash researchers approval and sticky if possible.

Directional Influence: A Guide

Note: The most efficient way to use this guide is to read each section one by one, mastering it before you continue. This way, you can build upon your achievements!

Why learn to DI? Because the longer you stay alive the more damage you can give to your opponent before losing your stock.

SDI(QCDI+TDI)+DI+Aerial+(Jump+FF+SM)+Various= Perfect DI + Various= Best Survival Rate

Want to achieve the above perfect DI and Best Survival Rate? Read through this guide to expand your knowledge of exactly how DI works and the most optimal ways to use the games mechanics to DI in your favor.

First, let's talk about stun.


Stun

Stun consists of four sections, which included hitlag frames and then 3 parts of hitstun. Hitlag consists of frames where you get literally no knock back at the start of the move and where your character is frozen(use Ness' Upb, hitting with Ness's body or also Falcons mighty knee, which explains why the game seems to freeze for half a second). It is those that stop any action between most multi-hit moves(those and regular hitstun of course, since most if not all hit that incur hitlag incur hitstun), and there is usually a higher amount of them on KO moves(especially on tippered moves). Then after this, comes the regular hitstun phase. You get knock back from the move you were hit by and you are stunned for a small amount of time where there is nothing you can do. Then there is the 2nd part of hitstun, which while looking exactly like the first one, you can do any aerial or airdodge during this phase. However you still cannot jump or do any b moves when your in it. Finally, there is the last part where you are no longer stunned but still have knockback impact left on your trajectory that you have to overcome. Below is a general timeline for the stun to act.




DI

DI stands for Directional Influence and is read the moment hitlag wears off(on its last frame). DI basically allows you to change the direction of the trajectory that you are gonna follow. One of the common misconceptions about DI is that you can change the base launch force of an attack, which leads to people pressing down while being upsmashed by a fox or uptilted by a Snake. DI in itself only allows for a change of launch angle, which then leads to a difference in traveled distances because of the forces applied on you(mainly gravity and horizontal resistance). This however does not provide any beneficial consequences. The way DI works, you want to be able to get as close as a possible to a diagonal of the stage to stay as far as possible from both DZ (death zones) horizontal and vertical.

I assert that the best way to DI is always go for the diagonal as shown in this drawing of mine. The mathematical reason can be seen on this drawing, because whenever you set either variables or arbitrary values to the distance of the trajectories to the DZ, the diagonal one is always the longest one. This can be simply proven using Pythagoras theorem. This is only comparing the distance from the death zones by changing only the angle at which you are shot from your knock back. I do realize that trajectory is actually a square function, but the results are basically the same, its just a longer mathematical proof to show that the distance is longer whenever you aim at the diagonals. The only difference would be that you would have to aim very very slightly above the corner, which is what you should do, but in most cases aiming at the corner is simpler. It is also worth noting that not all attacks can be DI-ed, any attack with a base launch force lower than 2550 cannot be DI-ed(although it allows ASDI and SDI).


As for how to DI, now that you know that your optimal aiming spot is for the diagonals, you have to understand that the way smash work is in vectors for the angle of the trajectory that you are sent in. If you go and watch the trajectory drawings I had before, you can see that the two extremes are horizontal and vertical. Your goal is to make sure that your trajectory actually goes in between, by adding the consequent vector force to the one you had. I personally think that the way your trajectory is calculated, the default knock back angle is determined by a vector of X value, and your input could be considered as X/2. What this basically means, and you can only shift this trajectory by up to 1/3rd of its original one(this is an approximate), by adding the corresponding vector. What this would explain is why you cannot be sent down by DI-ing downward when you are sent upward, because this is only for angle change, and you do not have sufficient force to change it to the opposite (Basically the knock back force is greater than the one you can input, so you cannot go against it directly, only shift the direction a little bit).

Since what you want to achieve is a diagonal vector or angle, you have to add the corresponding vector to it. If you are sent to the side, and you want to obtain a diagonal vector or angle, you need to input a vertical vector yourself by pressing up. The best way to imagine this is as to how to obtain a square triangle, for if your opponent sends you upward, then you gotta press to one of the sides, which makes 2 vectors that give a diagonal one in a triangle shape. Of course this is theory, but in practice, you cannot always obtain perfect diagonals since as I said your input cannot be as great as the one from the knock back, but your goal is to come as close as possible to a diagonal and stay away from the cardinal directions since those are the fastest way to die. ASDI is however the main reason as to why DI-ing out of a multi-hit move works even when you do not SDI.

It is actually possible to worsen your trajectory sometimes if you do not know how to DI very well. Many people think that pressing upward when sent up will actually make it worse, but as said previously you can only change the direction and not the distance. However, one of the common reflexes is to DI Snakes uptilt in a horizontal forward fashion, in hope of achieving this diagonal trajectory. However, upon further testing, you can easily find that Snakes uptilt actually sends you in a slight backward and upward trajectory. Therefore the closest diagonal would be the one at the top back. Therefore you would need to DI backward in order to get as far away as the top death zone. If you press forward because you are used to it, you will actually only get nearer the top killing zone, making you die earlier.

DI can also get you out of multi hit moves that usually have very little knock back without having to SDI. This is because many multi-hit moves tend to have a slight knockback with a horizontal vector only(such as Pikachu's downsmash, which only brings you in with many horizontal components), allowing you to choose exactly in which way you will be send vertically. This would allow you to get out of ROB's downsmash too simply by holding the stick up since unlike SDI, DI can be done by holding the stick before or during the attack(though actually pressing the stick will result in both SDI then DI, which is even better). This will not however allow you to escape MK moves since it does not have enough knockback on his aerials to escape between them(although if your insanely good with SDI in theory you could). Also many moves that have a set knockback such as Snakes Dair(when your on the ground) or Nair require SDI or ASDI because they do not have the sufficient base launch force to be DI-able. The main reason you will get out of multi-hit moves using this is because of ASDI(explained later).

This all being said, it becomes very easy to predict what killing move your opponent is most likely to use, and therefore be able to hold the direction required for DI to make sure you will not die early. For example, you know that Metaknight will almost always kill you horizontally, therefore you can hold up before any time he is close and your are expecting a downsmash if you cannot dodge it. This is true for most characters that rely on one killing move, such as fox's upsmash. It can also allow you to escape Wolf's dreaded side smash since the smash actually consists of 3 hits, and if you are holding up and he is close enough, only the first hit will hit you dealing less than 5 percent and if you are holding up and airdodge directly after you should not trip. This allows you to avoid the killing blow of his fsmash which is actually the last hit. However, this can only protect you for so long, as eventually you will need SDI to survive. This can also lead you to your downfall as some people created combos that make you think they are gonna kill you one way, but actually end up being the other thus screwing up your DI and usually making it worst than to begin with. For example, Snake will sometimes ftilt, then wait half a second to pretend he is going to uptilt, then ftilt again leading you to DI-ing to the exact same side you are sent(therefore not worsening your momentum, but clearly stopping any useful DI).

Now that you know that you need to DI in a specific direction to attain diagonals, but just before this you should in theory SDI, this seems like the more things add up to the equation the harder it will get, but stay assured that the rest coming up is much easier than these two. But first, now that you know that you will not after a horizontal or vertical hit when you take into account post DI, you can now better evaluate which way you want to translate with SDI to cancel as much distance as possible with translation movement. For example, if you are sent upward but with DI you can change this to be sent in a diagonal fashion, SDI should always be done in a completely opposite direction of the final trajectory to cancel as much knock back as possible overall, therefore leading you to SDI in the opposite diagonal. This is however only true in the air since on the ground the vector component of SDI on the ground will be canceled anyways.

Notice however, that you can use such vectors in the air to be sent flying on the ground by an upsmash, thus being able to tech it. This also works on a few Side/Up smashes that multi hit like Lucas' upsmash. You can SDI the second hit on the ground since the first one brings you slightly up in the air. Same applies for Zelda's forward smash for example. The last thing that should be taken into account with DI is for non killing blow that however send you out of the stage. With some characters you are better off always DI-ing upward to assure yourself that you will be high enough to recover without being gimped(Snake), but you must however make sure that you are not close enough to the vertical death zone so that this may lead to your downfall.

In appendix B, a list of all main KO moves will be shown with specific instructions on how to DI them and also standard killing DI versus all characters.

Summary

Try to aim at the corners by adding either an horizontal or vertical component to your trajectory. This is done on the last frame before hitstun, and the direction can be held prior to the hit.

SDI

SDI is an acronym for Smash Directional Influence. The SDI can only be used during hitlag, which means that the time frame to do it is very small. SDI can be achieved by pressing any direction during hitlag, making you travel a short distance in that direction(and I mean teleport, since you move instantly in 1 frame every time you SDI). You cannot hold a direction before the hit to get SDI on some of the frames. The main point of SDI is to compensate as much as possible for the knock back you are gonna receive after the hit simply by hitting in an opposite direction. This would mean that if you get hit by an attack like fox's forward smash, which has a near horizontal knock back. This would mean that if fox sent you to the left, you would need to go to the right this way when you get the knock back you are actually farther from the DZ(death zones around the screen). It is important to note that you cannot SDI onto the ground to force a tech when you're on the ground, but in the air, this is very doable to reduce knock back. Since there are multiple hitlag on all of the attacks in the game, it is technically possible to SDI more than once in a hit. However since holding a direction does not count as an actual input for SDI, if you want to SDI to the left twice, you would have to press left, let go of the joystick, then press left again within a very small time frame. This can therefore be very tricky, but since SDI only registers new input there is a way to avoid such impracticalities by doing QCDI.

QCDI

Quarter Circle Directional Influence is actually SDI but used in a slightly different manner. Since the joystick only registers new input, we can do a quarter circle in a specific direction to do the equivalent of 3 times SDI in a specific direction. This means that if we get hit and sent in an upward direction, you know that you should SDI downward. Therefore you would have to do a quarter circle in a downward direction, which would be either down left, down, down right, or in the opposite order. The reason why this works is because you can consider each of these inputs as a vector form force, which would mean that your actually pressing down 3 times, pressing right once and left once. This would mean both horizontal directions would cancel out, leaving only 3 downwards input(this is only true if you do not collide with the ground during those frames, since you really will move to the left and THEN to the right, which means overall it cancels out). This all has to be done within the hitlag or else those inputs will be useless(just slide the control stick in a quarter circle).Many people asked me why not a half circle DI, but the answer is actually quite simple. Not only would it take more time, thus decreasing your chances of successfully doing it, but it also only adds horizontal or vertical vectors/input that cancel each other out. This can be seen as below.


Then you can also add TDI to this, which stands for Tap Directional Influence. This occurs whenever you press a direction with the c-stick(being set either on attack or smashes) to incur SDI. This is because whenever you press on a direction with the c-stick, the game inputs for you the direction plus the a button. This means that since a direction is registered, it counts as SDI. However, unlike the control stick, the c-stick only registers input after every time you let go of it, therefore you cannot do QCDI with the c-stick. If you are fast enough, technically you could do twice the input by pressing the same direction as the control stick, the letting go of it, then pressing again during those hitlag. For some odd reason the input is not registered if your c-stick is set to specials. It is important to know that TDI is an obsolete term since it is basically SDI-ing with the C-Stick, no other difference there except that you cannot QCDI with it.


ASDI

ASDI is also present in this game and is one of the easiest ways to get out of multi-hit attacks. ASDI stands for automatic SDI and happens on the very first frame after hitlag, though it is read on the last frame of hitlag. The game, on this frame, reads the direction you will DI, allowing you to do regular DI. However, it will also on the next frame move you in an SDI-like fashion towards the direction you were pressing(or holding, because ASDI happens just like regular DI, therefore holding works too). It was estimated that the distance that is being traveled on the first frame after hitlag is approximately one half of what you usually travel using SDI once. This is one of the main reason you can get out of many multi-hit move because even if the trajectory is altered by regular DI, it will not change much if there is no or little actually knockback. ASDI on the other hand will always allow you to travel the same distance no matter what the knockback is, which is very handy.

This would mean that optimally you should do QCDI on one stick while doing single or double TDI on the c-stick. SDI and all of its derived forms can be used either to do translational movement after a KO-ing attack to gain some distance in the opposite direction to reduce the overall knock back, or also to get out of multi-hit attacks. Since multi-hit attacks such as Snake's nair have lots of freeze frame, you can SDI a lot more than on any other attack, and eventually get out of it before the last hit, thus avoiding the killing blow. If Snake is near you, you can either SDI toward him to get behind him while hes nair-ing you or if he is almost at the apex of his jump you can SDI upward to get out of it. This would mean using SDI and if possible its 2 derived forms on each hit to get out as early as possible. I suggest not SDI-ing downward on his nair since he will often fastfall thus following you in your downward momentum. I will give more examples on multi-hit attacks to be avoided in the various section. The best way to go and test SDI is actually to use smart bombs in training mode to see what SDI is, and then test with another players for various attacks.

If you are insanely good at QCDI, think about using my variation which is DQCDI. I frankly suggest you skip this part since it is very hard to do and it will more often confuse you than anything. Inputting 2 quarter circle DI may seem impossible, but it is also impractical because you are adding 2 vectors to it if you just slide back the other way. This would imply doing for example: left down, down, right down, down then left down. This gets pretty tricky, which is why I suggest you do not bother learning this as this also adds a second horizontal uncanceled vector to your input, in the example being left.

SDI is rarely used by the lower end of the smash competition spectrum, however many know that it is the key to surviving some attacks that would have been otherwise fatal even with near perfect DI. It is also widely used to avoid multi-attacks move. Regular SDI is commonly used by most melee veterans and some of the high-caliber players out there. QCDI is less commonly used but is much more effective, even though it is a lot harder. TDI is mostly unknown since people believe that just like in melee you can Automatic smash DI by holding a direction with the C-Stick, which is a common misconception. Even though it may not be the easiest of DI to learn, QCDI and TDI can help you survive a lot longer than you should and avoid killing blows.

In the appendix A, there will be a section devoted to SDI-ing and and DI-ing every multi-hit moves.


Summary

Do quarter circles using the joystick while repeatingly pressing in a direction with C-Stick to get in the desired direction to attempt to get out of multi-hit moves. ASDI will automatically activate because you will be holding a direction because of QCDI. Any input held before the hit will not be registered as SDI.

Aerials

When you are sent flying, in the first part of hitstun, you cannot do anything, and by now you should ALREADY have DI-ed since it is done on the last frame of hitlag. In the second part however(which has no visual difference with the first part), you can do any aerial or airdodge, but any momentum shift you input(i.e. pressing toward the stage) will not be registered. It is also impossible to jump, do any special attack, or footstool. You should do an aerial in the air as soon as possible when you are sent flying, for an aerial allows you to directly make a transition from the 2nd part of hitstun to the 3rd part, which is the one where you can make substantials savings on overall knockback. This is because the 3rd part of momentum basically allows you to do anything that you usually would. It is suggested to use the aerial that ends as soon as possible. It is also worth nothing that you can also throw a projectile that you had in hand to get out of the 2nd phase of hitstun, which comes out usually fairly fast and end instantly.

Momentum Shifting

First of all, one must notice that the whole momentum you gain can be separated into horizontal and vertical. Now we need to be able to reduce both of these, which implies fast falling and pressing towards the stage. Each character has 3 variables that will influence these 2 components. Weight of a character dampens(reduces) the initial vertical AND horizontal momentum but does not have any effect on the deceleration. Weight is however a very misleading term, and is now often referred to as launch resistance, because many people think that launch resistance only affects vertical knockback or is confused with falling speed. This is however the case for falling speed, which basically sets the deceleration speed of the vertical speed. If you can fastfall, then you automatically higher your falling speed which gets even higher gradually until it reaches a maximum, and this will therefore counteract the vertical momentum gave away by the move thus slowing you down and saving you. The second one is actually drift speed. Unlike for falling speed, everyone has the same basic resistance to horizontal knockback if you do not press toward any direction. However, everyone has a different drift speed. This can be easily seen when you compare Wario's aerial control with the one Ganondorf has. This drift speed cannot be used to reduce your horizontal momentum once you are in control of your character(which you are not until the 2nd part of hitstun). However, jumping seems to give you an horizontal boost if you press towards the stage, which in my opinion(this has yet to be proved) is because you can actually break this rule once you jumped, and counteract the effects of the knockback using your drift speed which is higher than the base horizontal resistance. The higher your drift speed, the faster you can counteract these effects.

Characters with disproportionate horizontal and vertical momentum canceling speeds have a slightly different DI system which should be used when they are sent flying in an unknown direction. This will later on be called best character DI value(BCDI) and is explained in the Various section . The first and foremost utility to doing an aerial is that it allows you to start fastfalling as soon as 1 frame after you pressed, which implies that by fastfalling you are reducing any vertical momentum left for after the aerial(which can often save you from imminent death). This is one of the two reasons why airdodge is not used anymore, for not only can you fastfall only after it, but it often lasts a lot longer than aerials by most characters. Directly after fast falling, you can jump and then start pressing towards the stage because you are in control and this allows you to counter the effects of horizontal momentum. If you do not jump, you may sometime look as if you would survive but then suddenly die because you had a little bit too much of horizontal momentum left. It is however important to notice that the jump will give you all your momentum that you canceled using fast fall back, and it will give you additional height because of the jump. However, the height gained from the jump CANNOT kill you, since you can never die of jumping too high. Therefore, only the momentum gained back from fastfall can, and it is often not big enough to kill you because you have waited after the aerial, which means you are already much lower thanks to the fastfall AND the basic falling speed, meaning you will probably not die because you will only gain back the fast fall momentum you had previously canceled.

Now, you know that you can use fast falling and jumping while pressing towards the stage to remove all sorts of momentum, but there are other ways to cancel momentum. First of all, it is important to notice that you can also use the throwing of an item to grant yourself the ability to go in the 3rd part of hitstun. This is faster than any aerial if you down throw because you get instant fast fall or almost, and also get the ability to jump directly out of this if required to save yourself from horizontal momentum because throws are faster than any aerial. This is why some characters like Diddy and Peach can momentum cancel very fast with their projectiles(Snake has a risk of killing himself with his grenades). There are also some special moves(as of now only 1 is known) that alter the speed at which you are going simply by setting new base momentum values and deceleration speeds. This is the case for Game and Watch bucket, which led to the popular practice known as bucket braking. This is simply done by using the bucket to set a new momentum whenever you have regained control of your character after you are sent flying. Many other moves used to be thought of being capable of momentum canceling, such as Fox's shine, Marth and Ike's counter moves, Peach's floating ability. However, these only act as normal B moves, giving you back the momentum you tried to canceled with fast falling, and do not stop any sort of horizontal movement. As of now, throwing a projectile is the best momentum canceling there is unless you play Game and Watch.

Note: You should not use any B move after reducing your momentum with fast falling because you will immediately gain it back, nor should you fast fall if you think you will need the height to recovery properly( IE snake must recover high sometimes versus metaknight).
A video guide of how to momentum cancel has been made by infzy! You can watch it here:


Momentum Canceling by infzy

Summary

After regaining control of your character, fastfall during the aerial. Then jump and press towards the stage. Some characters are however better off using momentum canceling move instead of jumping.

Various

Stale Moves & Trading Hits

Every attack has a definite base knockback and percent damage value, which decreases with every time it is used, until the stale move in question has not been used for 9 more attacks. Every attacks in between however partially reduce the decay. These attacks only count if their hitbox hit characters, or any sort of living hitbox( Smashville's balloon for example). It is important to know that people have a tendency to overuse KO moves, resulting on this working against them to be able to kill. It is also important to understand the concept of trading blows, which is when you get a hit but in counterpart get hit too. It is important to be able to evaluate if a hit is worth trading blows for, for example, trading blows with Snake who is heavy and kills at low percent is very bad if you are Jigglypuff because you cannot kill as easily and are much lighter. Remember that percent of damage is relative. The only time one should trade blow with someone who has a better rate of survival and killing overall, is when you are leading by 1 stock and need to get as much damage in as possible. It is then important to learn through experience of DI what moves will kill you at what percent, this way you can use an attack and get hit by a potentially killing move which will NOT kill you, making the move stale. Usually, if you are near killing percent and get hit with a killing move but it does not kill you, the next time he tries to land the same KO hit if you did not get at any higher percent, it will almost never kill you.

This can be fairly easily seen in this drawing of mine. As we can clearly see, the difference between the 1st and 2nd stale move is enough to make you survive the hit twice, but the 3rd time the knockback difference is far smaller(it is not exactly scaled since it is a concept drawing). As we can clearly see, the difference between the 1st and 2nd stale move is enough to make you survive the hit twice, but the 3rd time the knockback difference is far smaller(it is not exactly scaled since it is a concept drawing). This is why you should be able to know when you can trade blows when the other is using a killing move, this way you can usually not only get extra damage once, but twice. This is a general rule, but it does not always applies, for example if Marth fsmashed you once, if he sweetspots the 2nd one you are probably going to die.

For more info on decay of attacks, go here. It is much more accurate and precise than my explanation of decay and should be used. I only used the drawing as a proof of concept.


Falling Speed & Drift Speed

Every character has a different launch resistance, falling speed and drift speed. This is important to note because some characters have such disproportionate values for each that sometimes it is better to not use regular DI. For example, Game and Watch is very light, has a fast falling speed, and a very fast drift speed. He also happens to use the bucket. Because he is so light, most of the time his falling speed will not have time to kick in, so it is usually better to often DI to the sides. Every has one aspect of DI where he has better value, whether it is his horizontal or vertical wise. This also applies if your character has a very bad vertical/horizontal recovery, this will affect your DI. This leads us to believe that in the case where one has no idea of which way he has to DI, he should DI accordingly to his best value, whether horizontal or vertical. This is something I call best character DI value(BCDI). If you know that you have a great horizontal mobility speed for example but that you are very floaty and not a fast faller, you will want to get most of the momentum to the side so that you cancel as much as possible with your drift speed.

For a complete list of falling speeds and base launch resistances, go here. This is actually an article which has many mistakes, but has the right falling speeds and base launch resistances(weight). For a more accurate and in depth but less user friendly article, go here. For a complete list of drift velocity, go here.


Meteors & Meteor Canceling

It is important to first mention that in Brawl all spikes are actually meteor smashes, meaning that they can be meteor canceled. However, there are times where you will be sent downward and you are above the stage. If you estimate that by DI-ing towards the stage you can avoid being sent under the stage, then try to SDI to the side and DI the same way. However, sometimes it is quite clear that it is impossible for you to reach the stage even with good DI, and therefore you need an alternate solution. First of all, the basic rules of DI would apply here, meaning you would have to aim at the closest corner by pressing to the side to reach the lowermost side ones. This however should only be done when you have sufficient recovery to recover from farther, just like ROB does. If you can, then DI and then proceed to meteor canceling. Meteor canceling is done in 2 ways, either by pressing upb or jumping after part of the momentum has affected you. This lapse of time depends on the strength of the attack and on your percentage. It is however impossible to mash X to meteor cancel because whenever you press X or Y to jump, it buffers it for a small amount of time, but just like teching you will need to wait an even greater amount of time until you can use it again. You still can however meteor cancel using upb or tap jumps. If you cannot afford to have a longer recovery by DI-ing to the side, you must simply meteor cancel.

Stage Selection

Stage selection and DI are tightly linked. If you know that your character has a very high drift speed and use attacks that kill to the side, you can choose a stage with small boundaries horizontally so that your opponent doesn't survive very long. On the other hand, you who happens to DI upward, have very little side momentum left to cancel, and using your aerial speed, you can survive much longer than the other player. This is for example the case of Wario on Brinstar. The point usually is to try and find a way to make the stage boundaries, your killing moves and your BCDI hand in hand. It usually requires some thinking process, but it is very rewarding in the end. This is why Game and Watch uses Rainbow cruise so much, he can kill very easily in any direction, the ceiling is not that high but the horizontal boundaries are huge. This way, he can almost always DI to the side without fear of dying, thus minimizing the aspect of his light launch resistance. He can then use bucket braking to ensure that he will not die from the sides until a very high percent.

Standard Killing Moves

Some characters can kill in more than one way, while others almost always KO by one side. This is for example the case for fox, who almost always KO vertically. This means that it becomes very easy to predict what way one person must DI, and is therefore more important than using a characters best DI value. The move overall has more effect on you than your own characteristics for DI-ing. This is not the case for everyone, and since some characters do not have this, it justifies the use of BCDI. This is very easily seen with Olimar when you are in front of him, he can easily KO you vertically/horizontally using fsmash, horizontally using upsmash or vertically using upsmash. This is why we have mostly to rely on BCDI. However, because Fox has a standard killing move, then we can create a Standard Killing DI. This is the direction people should DI when the opponent has more than 1 killing move but some are more useful than other. You cannot always rely on reflexes to DI especially for example if the killing moves in question have a very similar animation(fox upsmash or fsmash) and both come out very fast, it is however very evident that Fox's upsmash is much more lethal and used more often. This is where SKDI comes in, because it is more lethal and used more often, it is therefore statistically better in case of doubt to assume that it will be an upsmash and therefore DI to the side to aim at the corners. Because it may seem to get complicated, you basically DI according to the amount of knowledge you have on what move the opponent is gonna use.

  • If you get hit by a multi-hit move, SDI out of it by using the infos found in appendix A.
  • If you know the exact move(and therefore direction of your knockback), DI the move the way it should be done by aiming at the corner or by looking in Appendix B.
  • If you do not know the exact move but have an idea of the preferred killing trajectories, use SKDI which can be found in the Appendix B.
  • If your opponent has more than one killing options which are very hard to react to, simply use your CBDI found in Appendix C.

In all 3 last cases, remember to use an aerial and to properly momentum cancel using the appropriate moves.

Notice: BCDI and SKDI are concepts and not actual values in the game. They are basically an average of one characters best momentum cancel and the average of a characters killing options. No previous term was ever used to talk about these, therefore I had to create new names for those.

Feel free to point out any mistake made in this guide either on the thread or pm me(swordgard) on SWF. I feel that most other DI guides are either incomplete or inaccurate, this is why this one was wrote. If you claim any of this is false, please bring up proof. Thanks to Colin for the help with some of the sections and correcting me.

Appendix A

List of all multi-hit moves and how to SDI/DI out of them. It should be noted that when it is written to SDI in a direction, this includes the optimal SDI possible. Namely, Quarter Circle DI in that direction and Smash DI on the C-stick to get optimal results, and ASDI should happen automatically if you hold your QCDI.



:bowser2:
Jab combo:
Forward smash:
Down smash: Away and Up
Fire breath: Up and away if not within reach of bowser. Up and towards if within reach of landing behind or using a quick aerial.

:falcon:
Triple jab combo:
Neutral Air:
Up smash:


:diddy:
Jab combo:
Forward smash 1st hit: Up
Dash attack to Up Tilt:


:dk2:
Jab combo:
Up B:
Multiple down Tilt: Away


:falco:
Jab combo:
Dash attack to Up Smash:
Neutral Air:
Forward Air:
Up Tilt: Up and behind falco

:fox:
Jab Combo:
Multiple Up Tilts: Up and towards the way fox is facing.
Foward Air:
Up Air:
Down Air:

:gw:
Jab combo:
Neutral Air:
Back Air:
Multiple Down tilts:
Up Air:
Multiple Up tilts:
Down Throw:


:ganondorf:
Neutral Air:
Down Smash:

:popo:
Ice climbers:
Side-B:
Blizzard:
Forward throw/Down throw to fair to ice lock: SDI behind them on the fair and tech it.
Alternating grabs: Sorry, you are screwed
Down Smash

:ike:
Jab combo:
Up-B:


:jigglypuff:
Jab combo:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Down Air:


:dedede:
Jab combo:
Down Air:
Up Air:

:kirby2:
Jab combo:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Forward Air:
Down Air:

:link2:
Jab combo:
Up Smash
Forward Air:
Back Air:


:lucario:
Jab combo:
Jab to force palm:
Multiple Forward Airs:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Down Air:


:lucas:
Jab combo:
Upsmash 1st hit:
Down Air:
Neutral Air:
Down Tilt:

:luigi2:
Jab combo:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Tornado ( Down-B ):

:mario2:
Jab combo:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Tornado (Down Air):
Up-B:


:marth:
Jab combo:
Side-B: Towards Marth and Up.
Multiple Down Tilts:
Neutral Air:
Multiple Up Tilts-Up Airs:


:metaknight:
Jab combo:
Forward Tilt:
Multiple Down Tilts:
Forward Air:
Back Air:
Multiple Up Airs:
Up Smash:
Down Smash at low % in the middle:
Tornado: See at the end of the appendix

:ness2:
Jab combo:
Forward Air:
Multiple Down Tilts:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:

:olimar:
Jab combo:
Neutral Air:
Up Air:
Up Tilt:
Down Throw to anything:


:peach:
Jab combo:
Jab to grab:
Down Air:
Back air 1st hit:
Down Smash:
Down throw:


:pikachu2:
Jab combo:
Down tilt:
Multiple uptilts:
Downsmash: Up
Forward air:
Down air to the ground:
Back air:
Multiple thunders:


:pit:
Jab combo:
Forward smash:
Up smash:
Up Tilt:
Neutral Air:
Up Air:
Side-B:


:pt:
Squirtle:
Jab combo:
Down Air:
Multiple Up Tilts/ Up Airs:

Ivysaur:
Jab combo:
Forward Tilt:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Neutral-B:
Neutral Air:
Back Air:

Charizard:
Jab combo:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Forward Air:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Flamethrower:
Up-B:
Rock Smash:


:rob:
Jab combo:
Multiple Down tilts:
Down Smash: Up
Multiple Fairs:
Up Air:


:samus2:
Jab combo:
Up Smash:
Forward Air:
Up Air:
Up-B:


:shiek:
Jab combo:
Multiple Forward Tilts:
Up Tilt:
Multiple Bairs:


:snake:
Jab combo:
Forward Tilt 1st hit: Towards Snake if close to him to land behind him. Away from him if far.
Down Air:
Neutral Air:
Up Smash:


:sonic:
Jab combo:
Up Smash:
Up air:
Side/down B to any attack:

:toonlink:
Jab combo:
Forward Smash: Up and towards T.L.
Multiple Bairs:
Multiple Up Tilts:
Up-B ( in the air ):
Up-B ( on the ground ):

:wario:
Jab combo:
Down Air:
Up Smash:
Multiple Down Tilts:
Up-B:


:wolf:
Jab combo:
Forward Tilt:
Multiple Down Tilts:
Down throw to forward smash:
Forward smash 1st and 2nd hit : Up
Up Smash:


:yoshi2:
Jab combo:
Multiple Down Tilts:
Multiple Up tilts:
Back Air:
Down Air:


:zelda:
Jab:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down tilt lock:
Neutral Air:
Neutral-B:


:zerosuitsamus:
Jab combo:
Side-B: Up
Up-B:
Up Tilt:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:


A note on infinites along a wall:

An in depth analysis of the tornado:
Appendix B



:bowser2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash last hit:
Down Smash last hit:
Up Air:
Fortress:
Back Air:
Forward Air:
Down Tilt:
Forward Tilt:
Side-B ( Non suicide ):
Up Smash:


:falcon:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up smash last hit:
Knee:
Falcon Punch:


:diddy:
SKDI:
Forward smash 2nd hit: Up
Down Smash:
Back Air:
Forward Air:
Up Air:
Down Air:


:dk2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Charged DK Punch:
Forward Air ( Spike ) :
Forward Air ( Upward ):
Up Air:
Back Air:


:falco:
SKDI:
Up Smash:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Back Air:
Down Air:
Down Tilt:


:fox:
SKDI:
Up Smash:
Forward Smash:
Down smash:
Last hit of Forward Air:
Up Air:
Back Air:


:gw:
SKDI:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Forward Smash:
Forward Air:
Up Air:
Down Tilt:


:ganondorf:
SKDI:
Jab:
Wizard's Kick:
Warlock Punch:
Up Tilt:
Forward Smash:
Last hit of Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Dash Attack:
Forward Air:
Back Air:
Up Air:
Down Air ( spike ):
Down Air (into the ground):


:popo:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Forward Air (Spike):

Forward Air:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Belay:
Back Air:
Up Air:


:ike:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Forward Tilt:
Up Tilt:
Forward Air:
Up Air:
Back Air:
Charged Eruption:

:jigglypuff:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Back Air:
Rest:
Rollout:


:dedede:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
UpSmash:
Up Tilt:
Back Air:
Forward Air:
Gordo:
Up-B (spike):
Up-B :
Down-B:


:kirby2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Throw ( high % ):
Back Air :
Hammer:
Rock:


:link2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up-B:
Down Air:
Up Air:
Forward Tilt:


:lucario:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Back Throw:
Forward Throw:
Force Palm: Up
Up Tilt:
Up Air:
Back Air:
Down Air:
Neutral Air:
Charged Aura Sphere:
Counter:

:lucas:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Down Smash:
Up Air:
Up-B last hit:
Neutral-B:
Back Throw:


:luigi2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Firepunch:
Down Air (Spike) :
Down Air :
Back Air:


:mario2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Back Air:
Forward Air ( Spike ):
Forward Air :
Back Throw:

:marth:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Forward Smash ( Tippered ) :
Down Smash 1st hit:
Down Smash 2nd hit:
Up Smash:
Up Tilt:
Back Air:
Forward Air ( Tippered ):
Forward Air :
Down Air:
Neutral Air:


:metaknight:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Tilt:
Neutral Air:
Aerial Shuttle Loop:
Grounded Shuttle Loop:
Forward Air:
Glide/Shuttle Loop Attack:
Up Air :
Dimension Cape:


:ness2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Back Air:
Up Air:
Down Air:
Neutral Air:
Up-B:
Neutral-B:
Back Throw:

:olimar:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Forward Smash With Purple Pikmin:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Back Throw/Forward Throw With Blue Pikmin:
Up Throw With Purple Pikmin:
Spike :
Back Air:


:peach:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Forward Air:
Neutral Air:
Back Air:
Up Air:
Up Tilt:
Stich Face:
Bomb:
Thrown Beam Sword:
Forward Smash Beam Sword:
Forward Throw:

:pikachu2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash
Downsmash last hit: Up
Thunder:
Thunder ( on Pikachu ) :
Neutral Air:
Side-B:
Down Air:


:pit:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Back Air:
Forward Air:
Glide Attack :


:pt:
Squirtle
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Down Smash:
Back Air:
Forward Air:
Up Air:
Down Throw:

Ivysaur
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash:
Up Air:
Down Air:
Forward Air:
Up-B:

Charizard
SKDI:
Forward Smash Last Hit :
Down Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Rock Smash:
Up-B:
Back Air:


:rob:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash
Down Smash Last Hit:
Neutral Air:
Back Air:
Laser:
Gyro:


:samus2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Charged-B:
Back Air:
Neutral Air:
Down Tilt:


:shiek:
SKDI:
Forward Smash Last Hit:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Up Air:
Forward Air:



:snake:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Mine:
C4:
Forward Tilt Second Hit: Up
Up Tilt: Towards Snake
Third Jab:
Back Air:
Up Air:
Neutral Air Last Hit:
Down Air Last Hit:
Forward Air:
Forward Air (Spike):
Back Throw:

:sonic:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Air:
Back Air:


:toonlink:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash Last Hit:
Up Smash:
Neutral Air:
Up-B In The Air:
Forward Air:
Down Air ( Spike ):
Up Air:


:wario:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Up Air:
Motorcycle:
Fart:

:wolf:
Forward smash 3rd hit : Up
Down Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Back Air:
Forward Air:
Up-B Last Hit:
Side-B:
Side-B (Spike):

:yoshi2:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Down Smash:
Up Smash:
Up Air:
Forward Air:
Down-B:


:zelda:
SKDI:
Forward Smash Last Hit:
Down Smash:
Up Smash Last Hit:
Din's Fire:
Lightning kick( Forward Air And Back Air):
Down Air:
Up Air:
Up Tilt:
Forward Tilt:
Back Throw:


:zerosuitsamus:
SKDI:
Forward Smash:
Side-B: Up
Up-B:
Back Air:
Up Air:
Down-B:
Forward Air:​

Appendix C

:bowser2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Forward Air

:falcon:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:diddy:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Banana Throw/Back Air

:dk2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air
Momentum Reset: Up-B

:falco:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:fox:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:gw:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Neutral-Air
Momentum Reset: Bucket (not full)

:ganondorf:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:popo:
BCDI: Up
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:ike:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:jigglypuff:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:dedede:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:kirby2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:link2:
BCDI: Up
Fastest Aerial:Back Air

:lucario:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Forward Air

:lucas:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial : Up Air

:luigi2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Forward Air

:mario2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:marth:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Forward Air

:metaknight:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:ness2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:olimar:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Down Air?

:peach:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Turnip Throw/ Back Air

:pikachu2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:pit:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial:

:pt:
Squirtle
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

Ivysaur
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

Charizard:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air

:rob:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Gyro Throw / Forward Air

:samus2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:shiek:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Forward Air

:snake:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Grenade Throw/Up Air

:sonic:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:toonlink:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:wario:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air??

:wolf:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Back Air

:yoshi2:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air
Momentum Reset: Egg Roll

:zelda:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Neutral Air?

:zerosuitsamus:
BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Up Air​
 

kr3wman

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
4,639
Yo dawg I heard you like living up to 180% so we put a guide on how to DI inside your guide on how to DI so you can QCDI while you SDI.

...

Good ****. AiR.
 

ndayday

stuck on a whole different plaaaanet
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
19,614
Location
MI
Nice, and very filled with DI info...I gotta read the rest of this and then practice. Just reading until the Aerial section, I found tons of grammar mistakes, but nothing truly fatal. Can't wait till you get all the little bits and pieces of how to DI out of characters moves.

Good stuff NikoK and Swordgard.
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
712
I'll post a thorough review later.

Summary: The document has a bunch of errors and isn't suitable to be a definitive resource in its present form. It has some good advice though.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
I only skimmed this, but it has a bunch of mistakes. I don't like your terminology, but you also say stuff like this:




Your DI is read on the last frame of hitlag (or "freeze frames" as you call them) except for throws (because they don't have hitlag). You DI before hitstun, not during it.

You also don't have a good understanding of how knockback works, e.g.,



Your fall speed has an effect from the very first frame you are hit.

There is some good advice in this thread in any case.
I shall correct the DI read thingy, but i just did not properly phrase the thing with being so light. What i meant is that he is so light that his falling speed even though very high is not enough to make him survive on smaller stages, therefore it does not really have time to kick in(it was just poorly worded)
 

ook

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,635
Location
Vernon Hills, Illinois
Kewl :)


I think it needs more videos/pictures though. It was kinda long and wordy :ohwell:



Also, DK's up-b cancels momentum like G&W's bucket. (And it is useful as a last resort. Use it only when you would die if you didn't use it, cause it puts you into freefall afterward.) Yoshi's egg roll apparently does too, but it's pretty useless because you fall straight down. :laugh:
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
Location
Canada
Since it looks like il be getting a bit of criticism about the wording of a few things, if people point out stuff il update it tommorow or something. I really gotta go sleep so yeah.
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
Excellent thread, looking forward to seeing it when it's done!
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
712
I decided to read the whole thing. I'm not trying to be confrontational here; I just decided I might as well record all my comments since I did post some.

SDI(QCDI+TDI)+DI+Aerial+(Jump+FF+SM)+Various= Perfect DI
Some of these things have nothing to do with DI.

Stun

Stun is put into 4 sections. Freeze frames are frames where you get literally no knock back at the start of the move and where your character is frozen(Do ness upb hitting with ness's body is the best example I can give you, or also falcons mighty knee, which explains why the game seems to freeze for half a second).
This is more commonly called "hitlag".

Those are also what keeps you from just dodging between each hit of Metaknight's fair. It is those that stop any action between most multi-hit moves
Actually, it's hitstun that prevents you from doing this, not hitlag. Meta Kngiht is frozen as well during the hitlag.

...DI

D.I. stands for Directional Influence and starts from the moment freeze frames wear off. DI basically allows you to change the direction of the trajectory that you are gonna follow.
As I pointed out in my briefer post, you actually DI on the last frame of hitlag (execpt for throws), not after hitlag.

One of the common misconceptions about DI is that you can change the distance you travel
DI does change the distance you travel because if you are hit higher above the horizontal your fall speed works against a larger component of your launch speed.

The way DI works, you want to be able to get as close as a possible to a diagonal of the stage to stay as far as possible from both DZ horizontal and vertical. I assert that the best way to DI is always go for the diagonal as shown in this drawing of mine. The mathematical reason can be seen on this drawing, because whenever you set either variables or arbitrary values to the distance of the trajectories to the DZ, the diagonal one is always the longest one. This can be simply proven using Pythagoras theorem. This is only comparing the distance from the death zones by changing only the angle at which you are shot from your knock back. I do realize that trajectory is actually a square function, but the results are basically the same, its just a longer mathematical proof to show that the distance is longer whenever you aim at the diagonals.
Your diagram shows your launch trajectory being a straight line, but it's actually curved because of gravity; you need to take this into account when deciding how to DI.

DI can also get you out of multi hit moves that usually have very little knock back without having to SDI. This is because many multi-hit moves tend to have a slight knockback with a horizontal vector only(such as pikachu's downsmash, which only brings you in with many horizontal components), allowing you to choose exactly in which way you will be send vertically. This would allow you to get out of ROB's downsmash too simply by holding the stick up since unlike SDI, DI can be done by holding the stick before or during the attack(though actually pressing the stick will result in both SDI then DI, which is even better).
DI can help you get out of some multihit moves, but I think the more important effect here is due to ASDI, not DI.

SDI

...

Then you can also add TDI to this, which stands for Tap Directional Influence. This occurs whenever you press a direction with the c-stick(being set either on attack or smashes) to incur SDI. This is because whenever you press on a direction with the c-stick, the game inputs for you the direction plus the a button. This means that since a direction is registered, it counts as SDI. However, unlike the control stick, the c-stick only registers input after every time you let go of it, therefore you cannot do QCDI with the c-stick. If you are fast enough, technically you could do twice the input by pressing the same direction as the control stick, the letting go of it, then pressing again during those freeze frames. For some odd reason the input is not registered if your c-stick is set to specials <.<.
I don't like the term "Tap DI". There's no need to have a separate term for using the C stick to SDI.


Aerial

When you are sent flying, in the first part of hitstun, you cannot do anything but press in a direction to DI(which should be done to aim at the corners of the screen).
As I said above, you can't DI in hitstun.

In the second part however(which has no visual difference with the first part), you can do any aerial or airdodge, but any momentum shift you input(IE. Pressing toward the stage to get less far) will not be registered, only regular DI will be(no distance change, only slight direction changes.
Again you can't DI in hitstun. It's true that you cannot use air control in hitstun.

... It is suggested to use the aerial that comes out the quickest and ends as soon as possible.
When we talk about how quickly aerials come out, we mean when they first hit, which is irrelevant for using an aeiral to aid in recovery. When they come out doesn't matter for these things.

Momentum Shifting

First of all, it is important to notice that the whole momentum you gain can be separated in 2. Horizontal and vertical that is. Now we need to be able to reduce both of these, which implies fast falling and pressing towards the stage. Each character has 3 variables that will influence these 2 components. Weight of a character dampens the initial vertical momentum but does not have any effect on the deceleration.
Very misleading. "Weight" is an obsolete term, and this is precisely why. "Weight" as in fall acceleration has an effect every frame. "Weight" as in launch resistance only has an effect for the initial launch force calculation, but affects the magnitude of the force, i.e., both the horizontal and vertical component. Either way the quoted paragraph is confusing/wrong.

This is however the case for falling speed, which basically sets the deceleration speed of the vertical speed.
Fall speed is just the component of your vertical speed contributed by gravity. It is seaprate from the rate at which your fall speed reaches its maximum value (this is your top fall speed).

If you can Fast fall, then you automatically higher your falling speed to its maximum
It isn't instant.

Unlike for falling speed, everyone has the same basic resistance to horizontal knockback if you do not press toward any direction.
True.

However, everyone has a different aerial mobility speed, which I shall now. This can be easily seen when you compare wario's aerial control with the one Ganon has. This aerial mobility speed can be used to reduce your horizontal momentum once you are in control of your character(which you are not until the 2nd part of hitstun). The higher your aerial mobility speed, the faster you can counteract these effects.
This is what I thought at first, but actually you can only use air control after hitstun would have naturally worn off, regardless of whether you ended it early. So, holding toward the stage does help, but only a little bit, and it helps the same regardless of whether you ended hitstun early.


Characters with disproportionate horizontal and vertical momentum canceling speeds have a slightly different DI system which should be used, but this will be explained later.
Confusing.

The first and foremost utility to doing an aerial is that it allows you to start fastfalling as soon as the hitbox gets out(which means DURING the aerial, hence why snakes dair is so useful because the hitbox of the first hit comes out near instantaneously), which implies that by fastfalling you are reducing any vertical momentum left for after the aerial(which can often save you from imminent death).
Actually, you can fast fall from frame 1 of the aerial. When the hitbox comes out is irrelevant.


This is one of the two reasons why airdodge is not used anymore, for not only can you fastfall only after it, but it often lasts a lot longer than aerials by most characters.
True.

Directly after fast falling, you can start pressing towards the stage because you are in control and this allows you to counter the effects of horizontal momentum.
No. See above.

Every attack has a definite base knockback and percent damage value, which decreases with every time it is used, until the stale move in question has not been used for 9 more attacks. Every attacks in between however partially reduce the decay. These attacks only count if their hitbox hit characters, or any sort of living hitbox( Smashville's balloon for example).
Confusing. Considering AA and I figured out the exact damage decay mechanics, you should probably just reference us rather than using this fuzzy description.

Falling speed and aerial mobility speed

Every character has a different weight, falling speed and aerial mobility speed. This is important to note because some characters have such disproportionate values for each that sometimes it is better to not use regular DI. For example, Game and Watch is very light, has a fast falling speed, and a very fast aerial mobility speed. He also happens to use the bucket. Because he is so light, most of the time his falling speed will not have time to kick in, so it is usually better to often DI to the sides. Every has one aspect of DI where he has better value, whether it is his horizontal or vertical wise. This also applies if your character has a very bad vertical/horizontal recovery, this will affect your DI. This leads us to believe that in the case where one has no idea of which way he has to DI, he should DI accordingly to his best value, whether horizontal or vertical. This is something I call best character DI value(BCDI). If you know that you have a great horizontal mobility speed for example but that you are very floaty and not a fast faller, you will want to get most of the momentum to the side so that you cancel as much as possible with your aerial mobility speed.

For a complete list of falling speeds and base weights, go here. For a complete list of aerial mobility velocity, go here.
MrSilver's work is wrong and I wish people would stop citing it. If you want to cite something here, try my thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6393876

The guide contains a lot of good advice in any case. All in all I'm kind of annoyed by the confusing words/errors in the knockback section though, considering I've published correct documents on how knockback works, such as the one I linked to above.
 

p8nted

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
88
This is huge. This should be a sticky for all of Smash boards.

DI is something that should be learned first and learned well.
:bigthumbu

Though the acronyms you made up seemed kinda redundant.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

Smash Lord
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Nov 18, 2008
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Dallas GA
This looks very deep. I can't wait to see this project completed.. you guys might become the Einsteins of Brawl!
 

UTDZac

▲▲▲▲▲
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Judgment Count: 856
This is like pron for the eyes of competitive smash players.

+1 Awesome points.

I might later argue that it is possible to footstool after being hit to stop your momentum. I have a video clip of it.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
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I decided to read the whole thing. I'm not trying to be confrontational here; I just decided I might as well record all my comments since I did post some.



Some of these things have nothing to do with DI.



This is more commonly called "hitlag".



Actually, it's hitstun that prevents you from doing this, not hitlag. Meta Kngiht is frozen as well during the hitlag.



As I pointed out in my briefer post, you actually DI on the last frame of hitlag (execpt for throws), not after hitlag.



DI does change the distance you travel because if you are hit higher above the horizontal your fall speed works against a larger component of your launch speed.



Your diagram shows your launch trajectory being a straight line, but it's actually curved because of gravity; you need to take this into account when deciding how to DI.



DI can help you get out of some multihit moves, but I think the more important effect here is due to ASDI, not DI.



I don't like the term "Tap DI". There's no need to have a separate term for using the C stick to SDI.




As I said above, you can't DI in hitstun.



Again you can't DI in hitstun. It's true that you cannot use air control in hitstun.



When we talk about how quickly aerials come out, we mean when they first hit, which is irrelevant for using an aeiral to aid in recovery. When they come out doesn't matter for these things.



Very misleading. "Weight" is an obsolete term, and this is precisely why. "Weight" as in fall acceleration has an effect every frame. "Weight" as in launch resistance only has an effect for the initial launch force calculation, but affects the magnitude of the force, i.e., both the horizontal and vertical component. Either way the quoted paragraph is confusing/wrong.



Fall speed is just the component of your vertical speed contributed by gravity. It is seaprate from the rate at which your fall speed reaches its maximum value (this is your top fall speed).



It isn't instant.



True.



This is what I thought at first, but actually you can only use air control after hitstun would have naturally worn off, regardless of whether you ended it early. So, holding toward the stage does help, but only a little bit, and it helps the same regardless of whether you ended hitstun early.




Confusing.



Actually, you can fast fall from frame 1 of the aerial. When the hitbox comes out is irrelevant.




True.



No. See above.



Confusing. Considering AA and I figured out the exact damage decay mechanics, you should probably just reference us rather than using this fuzzy description.



MrSilver's work is wrong and I wish people would stop citing it. If you want to cite something here, try my thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6393876

The guide contains a lot of good advice in any case. All in all I'm kind of annoyed by the confusing words/errors in the knockback section though, considering I've published correct documents on how knockback works, such as the one I linked to above.
I know the one published by Mr Silver was wrong, actually i thought i had had linked to YOUR thread(probably made a mistake when a i opened like 30 ish tabs one firefox :S ) Tap Di is just a subsection of SDI(i only used the term because some people used it before, i dont like the notation either XD )

I shall correct the hitlag/hitstun confusion tonight i guess. For the aerial, il correct to and stuff. Anyways, il update all of it tonight. Thanks for the help.

And seriously, anyone has a better name than BCDI and SKDI? Cause i pretty much ran out of terms XD Oh and i guess not everything is 100% linked to DI, but its tightly linked to survival and sometimes has a small link to DI. So yeah, i just included everything to make it throughout
 

SCOTU

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@OP: I believe you should take a look at this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155409

It explains some stuff you've got going better, so you can get more stuff right.

Although i haven't read the entire OP yet, some things i need to call to attention are

1) TDI: worthless term just referring to multiple SDIs. It has nothing to do w/ the difference of control stick vs c stick, as they both do the same thing.

2) There is a name for these "Freeze Frames" you keep referencing. It's called Hitlag.

3) DI doesn't start right after hitlag ends, it ONLY takes effect on the last frame DURING hitlag. It simply changes your launch angle.

4) DI CAN change the distance at which you're knocked back. It CAN'T change your launch speed.

5) Hitlag is in no way responsible for keeping you in multihit attacks (except multihit projectile attacks). This is strictly hitstun, because the attacker is freeze framed while the hittee is too.

6) You're missing ASDI. It seems important for something like this

7) Your formula for "perfect DI" includes lots of things that are not DI, nor should they be classified as such. What you're thinking of would better be classified as "Survivability"

8) probably a bunch of other stuff, cause i haven't finished reading it yet. I guess i can go over it when it's not 8am after an all nighter to point out everything i think needs bettering

edit: chumpblocked by page turn. I guess colin said most (if not everything i said here already).
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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Since multi-hit attacks such as snakes fair have lots of freeze frame, you can SDI a lot more than on any other attack, and eventually get out of it before the last hit, thus avoiding the killing blow.
Just pointing out a typo.

I didn't know the bit about Snake's uptilt sending opponents up and back.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Canada
@OP: I believe you should take a look at this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155409

It explains some stuff you've got going better, so you can get more stuff right.

Although i haven't read the entire OP yet, some things i need to call to attention are

1) TDI: worthless term just referring to multiple SDIs. It has nothing to do w/ the difference of control stick vs c stick, as they both do the same thing.

2) There is a name for these "Freeze Frames" you keep referencing. It's called Hitlag.

3) DI doesn't start right after hitlag ends, it ONLY takes effect on the last frame DURING hitlag. It simply changes your launch angle.

4) DI CAN change the distance at which you're knocked back. It CAN'T change your launch speed.

5) Hitlag is in no way responsible for keeping you in multihit attacks (except multihit projectile attacks). This is strictly hitstun, because the attacker is freeze framed while the hittee is too.

6) You're missing ASDI. It seems important for something like this

7) Your formula for "perfect DI" includes lots of things that are not DI, nor should they be classified as such. What you're thinking of would better be classified as "Survivability"

8) probably a bunch of other stuff, cause i haven't finished reading it yet. I guess i can go over it when it's not 8am after an all nighter to point out everything i think needs bettering

edit: chumpblocked by page turn. I guess colin said most (if not everything i said here already).
As said previously, ASDI does NOT exist. Also, i will update this later. ASDI does not exist in brawl since you cannot hold a direction to SDI at all. And yeah, for total knockback i meant that you cannot change your speed, sorry i guess i badly worded that too. And i guess none of you guys understand the meaning of distance travelled, you do NOT change the total knockback, only its direction. If you take for account the falling speed and drift values, then yes it will change the overall knockback. But in a direct sense, normal DI only changes direction. The overall distance will remain the same( instead of say+10 to the left and +5 upward, its gonna be +7 and +8).
 

SCOTU

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ASDI DOES exist in brawl, and OBVIOUSLY doesn't have to do w/ holding a direction to SDI, because that was never a part of it's definition, since you could NEVER SDI by holding a direction. ASDI is an apporx. 1/2 length SDI-like teleport granted on the last frame of hitlag because you're holding a direction, hence the Automatic part.
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
712
And i guess none of you guys understand the meaning of distance travelled, you do NOT change the total knockback, only its direction. If you take for account the falling speed and drift values, then yes it will change the overall knockback. But in a direct sense, normal DI only changes direction. The overall distance will remain the same( instead of say+10 to the left and +5 upward, its gonna be +7 and +8).
Wrong.

If your launch angle is higher above the horizontal, but the force is the same, then the DISTANCE will be LESS.

Let's consider a force F = 3 and an angle of 0.3 radians (an arbitrary number I chose). For the sake of simplicity, suppose the knockback resistance force is 1. Suppose the target's fall acceleration is 1 and that they don't reach top fall speed.

The horizontal displacement will be

cos(0.3) * (3 + 2 + 1) = 5.73201893

The vertical displacement will be

sin(0.3) * (3 + 2 + 1) - 1 - 2 - 3 = -4.22687876

So the total distance travelled due to knockback is

sqrt(5.73201893^2 + 4.22687876^2) = 7.12197621

Now let's suppose you apply some DI so that the angle becomes π/2. Now the displacement will obviously be entirely vertical, and it will be

1 + 2 + 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 = 0

Well ****. Looks like you don't go anywhere at all (in net) due to knockback under these conditions.

I'm pretty sure 0 < 7.12197621.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Canada
Wrong.

If your launch angle is higher above the horizontal, but the force is the same, then the DISTANCE will be LESS.

Let's consider a force F = 3 and an angle of 0.3 radians (an arbitrary number I chose). For the sake of simplicity, suppose the knockback resistance force is 1. Suppose the target's fall acceleration is 1 and that they don't reach top fall speed.

The horizontal displacement will be

cos(0.3) * (3 + 2 + 1) = 5.73201893

The vertical displacement will be

sin(0.3) * (3 + 2 + 1) - 1 - 2 - 3 = -4.22687876

So the total distance travelled due to knockback is

sqrt(5.73201893^2 + 4.22687876^2) = 7.12197621

Now let's suppose you apply some DI so that the angle becomes π/2. Now the displacement will obviously be entirely vertical, and it will be

1 + 2 + 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 = 0

Well ****. Looks like you don't go anywhere at all (in net) due to knockback under these conditions.

I'm pretty sure 0 < 7.12197621.
Listen, we actually make the overall distance longer by making it straight diagonal i agree. But anyways, im updating this. I meant distance travelled not displacement :S, before it wears off(that means you can just count it as negating the vertical because it can still kill you).
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
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ASDI DOES exist in brawl, and OBVIOUSLY doesn't have to do w/ holding a direction to SDI, because that was never a part of it's definition, since you could NEVER SDI by holding a direction. ASDI is an apporx. 1/2 length SDI-like teleport granted on the last frame of hitlag because you're holding a direction, hence the Automatic part.
Ok this shall be added, i thought people were refferring to the regular ASDI from melee :S

EDIT: actually, you should notice collin that i used distance, not displacement. You were the one who confused the 2
 

ColinJF

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
712
EDIT: actually, you should notice collin that i used distance, not displacement. You were the one who confused the 2
If you want to count the distance both up and down, rather than just the distance at the end, in the second case, it's 4. 4 < 7.12197621.
 
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