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Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #31 - Ganondorf
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Well, first things first. What do TL's think of this matchup?
I think it's 70:30 or some other unfair ratio. So as long as TL plays safe and covers his blindspots, basically camping intelligently, Ganondorf will have to make a large effort to even get to TL.
However, we just gave Falcon 70:30 so we might make him 75:25 or you guys 65:35 since should you get in, a lot of follow-ups can be done that deal stupid amounts of damage. Ganondorf is a scary man. I won't lie. Plus I think dash attack can kill TL at pretty reasonable percents and it's like one of your safest kill moves, no?
I played Zeon Star at Impact Clash II a really long time ago and...yeah, the match is sorta unfair.
ZEON DON'T JUST GO TO IMPACT MAN. MONTHLIES PLZ.
???
However, we just gave Falcon 70:30 so we might make him 75:25 or you guys 65:35 since should you get in, a lot of follow-ups can be done that deal stupid amounts of damage. Ganondorf is a scary man. I won't lie. Plus I think dash attack can kill TL at pretty reasonable percents and it's like one of your safest kill moves, no?
I played Zeon Star at Impact Clash II a really long time ago and...yeah, the match is sorta unfair.
ZEON DON'T JUST GO TO IMPACT MAN. MONTHLIES PLZ.
???
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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This is like one of the gayest matchups in the game. Well, for Ganondorf that is.
There isn't much to it beside the fact that Ganondorf is going to have to approach with powershields. Not that powershielding TL's stuff is hard, but even if you can PS his stuff, then you have to worry about the fact he can shieldgrab a lot of Ganon's stuff.
Flame Choke is REALLY awesome on TL. Assuming he doesn't shieldgrab you first or something dumb. But Flame Choke -> F-tilt is guaranteed, and of course, that's not something TL wants to get hit by at high percents, either cause it will KO him, or get him gimped. U-air eats his recovery for breakfast. The other followups that work are D-tilt and Dash Attack btw.
But yeah, it's probably close to around 7/3, give or take 5%. It's 9/1 in favor of Toon Link online just saying since powershielding is impossible online lmao.
There isn't much to it beside the fact that Ganondorf is going to have to approach with powershields. Not that powershielding TL's stuff is hard, but even if you can PS his stuff, then you have to worry about the fact he can shieldgrab a lot of Ganon's stuff.
Flame Choke is REALLY awesome on TL. Assuming he doesn't shieldgrab you first or something dumb. But Flame Choke -> F-tilt is guaranteed, and of course, that's not something TL wants to get hit by at high percents, either cause it will KO him, or get him gimped. U-air eats his recovery for breakfast. The other followups that work are D-tilt and Dash Attack btw.
But yeah, it's probably close to around 7/3, give or take 5%. It's 9/1 in favor of Toon Link online just saying since powershielding is impossible online lmao.
Find better TLs lol.
Also you can't powershield bombs and bomb camping is the legit stuff of all three projectile.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Eh, bombs aren't threatening at all. Either you can spotdodge 'em, or even airdodge catch 'em to throw right back at Tink.
I don't really battle human players unless it's Wi-fi, which sucks. I don't have many friends that are good with Smash. :\
Eh, I'll think of something.
And it is true that you can't powershield bombs, they bounce right off and blow up in your face.
Eh, I'll think of something.
And it is true that you can't powershield bombs, they bounce right off and blow up in your face.
Pho
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2008
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- 384
If Ganondorf players can get inside, 2 SHDairs --> Uair is 60% or more. At 80%, Ganondorf can land any smash for the kill. Getting inside Gandondorf for the kill is extremely risky. He can punch/tilt away arrows, and even boomerangs, so just make sure Toon Link players have a lot of space.
In that case the bombs are baiting you to commit to punishable actions. Throwing bombs isn't particularly a laggy action.
While TL's bombs are no grenades, they are one of the most useful projectiles in the game for a reason.
OniTheWolf
Smash Journeyman
Camp and take advantage of Ganondorf's "wonderful" speed. Play smart with ZAir. Take advnatgae of his weight with SH ZAir to chain BThrows when you can. SHDA, boomerang, and quickdraw will be your best friends.
As stated before, take advantage of his speed. By using SHDA and a combination of aerial + quickdraw, you can keep the King of Evil at bay. Angling your boomerang correctly will also keep him away, and can be used for a FSMash or Sliding USmash set up. You can BAir chain Ganondorf, but don't go for a BAir --> Spike, since there is a chance he can Ganoncide you, and this will definatley suck if you happen to have one less life than him. Stick to NAir -- > Quickdraw or BAir --> Quickdraw for damage racking
Offensive Ganon Banning combo's:
ZAir to Chain BThrows
SH Bair to F or DTilts
DThorw to UTilt to NAir or USmash
SH ZAir to FTilt USmash or FSmash
SH Double ZAir to any of the follow ups above
BAir chain to Foot stool spike
For those Side B users:
WATCH YOUR DISTANCE! IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPIKE, GO FOR A BOMB STAB SPIKE!
( Bomb to DAir, gotta watch your distance still)
Projectile walls xD! Bomb them and Quickdraw them when they try to use Side B, eventually, they will screw up or you will find yourself in a position where you can BAir for a stage spike.
As stated before, take advantage of his speed. By using SHDA and a combination of aerial + quickdraw, you can keep the King of Evil at bay. Angling your boomerang correctly will also keep him away, and can be used for a FSMash or Sliding USmash set up. You can BAir chain Ganondorf, but don't go for a BAir --> Spike, since there is a chance he can Ganoncide you, and this will definatley suck if you happen to have one less life than him. Stick to NAir -- > Quickdraw or BAir --> Quickdraw for damage racking
Offensive Ganon Banning combo's:
ZAir to Chain BThrows
SH Bair to F or DTilts
DThorw to UTilt to NAir or USmash
SH ZAir to FTilt USmash or FSmash
SH Double ZAir to any of the follow ups above
BAir chain to Foot stool spike
For those Side B users:
WATCH YOUR DISTANCE! IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPIKE, GO FOR A BOMB STAB SPIKE!
( Bomb to DAir, gotta watch your distance still)
Projectile walls xD! Bomb them and Quickdraw them when they try to use Side B, eventually, they will screw up or you will find yourself in a position where you can BAir for a stage spike.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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2 SH D-airs -> U-air is only about 55% if I recall. SH D-air -> U-smash -> B-air is more like 60%.
Also, Ganon's D-smash is a horrible kill move. I'm serious....this move doesn't kill. AT ALL. Except on people who are EXTREMELY light. Toon Link isn't EXTREMELY light btw.
Just saying....Ganon only really KOs at 80% with F-smash. U-smash KOs more like at 95%. D-smash doesn't kill until like 145% if they know how to DI.
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
I hate fighting anyone with a sword (except ike) due to aerial disjointed priority. TL's dair beats ganon's uair and usmash (I think it beats usmash anyways, it's been a while) and TL's uair beats ganon's dair and down-b so that sucks for ganon. Ganon's bair is pretty useless here as is often the case everywhere, he's too small to hit with a short-hopped version as well. TL can also easily combo ganon with bairs if he gets hit by one near the ground.
Ganon can hold his own if he meets TL in the air on either side of him, that is, horizontally. Ganon's fair is pretty effective with it's large range and uair as well when it comes from the side.
Basically I try to avoid going airborne to fight TL. I recommend sticking as close to the ground as possible for this fight as ganon. His projectiles move pretty slow and are easily powershielded, excluding, of course, the bomb. I like to air-dodge catch them since it's fun to give ganon projectiles. Ganon's side-b works well against TL; d-tilt and f-tilt are all guaranteed follow-ups. Lagless stomping does well too.
Also, watch out for arrows gimping ganon's recovery, they knock you straight down. At least bombs and boomerangs hit you slightly up.
Oh and don't crouch during TL's dsmash. I've been killed from 0% from it a few times because it whips you diagonally downward if you're anywhere near a ledge and ganon just can't recover from sh*t like that.
I'd give this a 65:35 in TL's favor due to shutting down several of Ganon's key attacks, having a sword and projectiles, and being small.
Ganon can hold his own if he meets TL in the air on either side of him, that is, horizontally. Ganon's fair is pretty effective with it's large range and uair as well when it comes from the side.
Basically I try to avoid going airborne to fight TL. I recommend sticking as close to the ground as possible for this fight as ganon. His projectiles move pretty slow and are easily powershielded, excluding, of course, the bomb. I like to air-dodge catch them since it's fun to give ganon projectiles. Ganon's side-b works well against TL; d-tilt and f-tilt are all guaranteed follow-ups. Lagless stomping does well too.
Also, watch out for arrows gimping ganon's recovery, they knock you straight down. At least bombs and boomerangs hit you slightly up.
Oh and don't crouch during TL's dsmash. I've been killed from 0% from it a few times because it whips you diagonally downward if you're anywhere near a ledge and ganon just can't recover from sh*t like that.
I'd give this a 65:35 in TL's favor due to shutting down several of Ganon's key attacks, having a sword and projectiles, and being small.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
I got ganon exp
:D
its like 65:35 imo
Obvious reasons.
Toon Link can just high speed camp the face off of ganon bunk Spamming that can just be shielded through.
But he'll never catch us.
Grab him outta his flame choke.
Edge guarding is pretty tricky.
You risk being spiked or suicided.
But just use projectiles.
And thats all I got.
:D
its like 65:35 imo
Obvious reasons.
Toon Link can just high speed camp the face off of ganon bunk Spamming that can just be shielded through.
But he'll never catch us.
Grab him outta his flame choke.
Edge guarding is pretty tricky.
You risk being spiked or suicided.
But just use projectiles.
And thats all I got.
TP
Smash Master
Just so you guys know, Murder Choke is a punishing move, not an approach. Choke>Dash Attack is a true combo and will kill you at about 90%. Choke>Ftilt will kill even earlier if near the edge. Once you are off the stage, you are not coming back, pure and simple. A good Ganon will always be their to Tipman you, multiple times if necessary, and there is really nothing you can do about it. You will die.
This is Ganon's most fun matchup. Why? Because in my opinion, the Flight of Ganon is actually viable here, which is awesome. If we can't approach safely from the ground, let's just jump 50 feet above him. Not bulletproof, but soooo fun.
65-35 Tink's favor.
This is Ganon's most fun matchup. Why? Because in my opinion, the Flight of Ganon is actually viable here, which is awesome. If we can't approach safely from the ground, let's just jump 50 feet above him. Not bulletproof, but soooo fun.
65-35 Tink's favor.
Sgt. Baker
Smash Ace
Hey TP, I've actually started using the Flight Of Ganon on human players. DON'T try it online haha. But yes the FOG is a good bait/approach though.
Still though this matchup makes me go "OMGWTFBBQDBZ" though. I'm the better smasher between me and my friend who's a Tink user but he always manages to almost beat me (and sometimes he does). Tink is too good in this match up for me. I actually started tinkering with the cat-eyed kid too. He's fun.
Still, I say about 65-35 Toon Link
Zeon needs to show me these Ganon tricks in action. But he's too busy ****** people w/ Dirty South's Internet. ;(
Anyway...so basically, TL throws bombs and some other stuff for fun, but he has to take a risk every time he needs to get the kill, because Ganon ***** mistakes, and TL is light, so killing isn't too hard for Ganon either assuming he gets the hits in accordingly.
But TL is short and like Falcon, Ganondorf sorta sucks at hitting short people. Mmkay.
65-35 TL okay with everyone?
Anyway...so basically, TL throws bombs and some other stuff for fun, but he has to take a risk every time he needs to get the kill, because Ganon ***** mistakes, and TL is light, so killing isn't too hard for Ganon either assuming he gets the hits in accordingly.
But TL is short and like Falcon, Ganondorf sorta sucks at hitting short people. Mmkay.
65-35 TL okay with everyone?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Yep everybody already said everything there is to know about the matchup so Im not gonna repeat what was said. :S I too agree with 65:35 TL.
Sgt. Baker
Smash Ace
I say yay. Wow, that was apparently one of the nicer/non-flamming match-up disscussions I've been in or read about Ganon lol 
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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lol less then 2 pages and were done. xD
wtf.
We should discuss more things just for the heck of it.
So then others don't ask questions later.
Or maybe some Ganon would be nice enough to play me on Wifi so I can have a feel for what the match up is like? ^_^;
Then I can write my thoughts or something.
wtf.
We should discuss more things just for the heck of it.
So then others don't ask questions later.
Or maybe some Ganon would be nice enough to play me on Wifi so I can have a feel for what the match up is like? ^_^;
Then I can write my thoughts or something.
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
I wouldn't mind getting embarrassed if you don't mind the trans-continental wifi connection.
^thisI say yay. Wow, that was apparently one of the nicer/non-flamming match-up disscussions I've been in or read about Ganon lol
I guess it's Toon Link boards for the win.
Yay.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
lol what would happen in other match ups?
They believe they supa **** Ganon?
like Shiek or something?
lol
Anywho what is Tipman?
is it like his spike?
I can get back on the stage pretty easily vs Ganon...
Doesn't his fair spike?
They believe they supa **** Ganon?
like Shiek or something?
lol
Anywho what is Tipman?
is it like his spike?
I can get back on the stage pretty easily vs Ganon...
Doesn't his fair spike?
Teronist09
Smash Journeyman
tipman is the ending bit of uair that hits behind him with his toes.
Fair has no spiking property afaik.
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Wow, it was over before anything it started lolI say yay. Wow, that was apparently one of the nicer/non-flamming match-up disscussions I've been in or read about Ganon lol
you guys are nice too
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Not much else to be said.
Sasuke, or anyone else for this matter, I'll fight you on wifi, if that's how you want to complete sorting what's left of this match-up out, I'm good with it.
Sasuke, or anyone else for this matter, I'll fight you on wifi, if that's how you want to complete sorting what's left of this match-up out, I'm good with it.
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
I just fought sasukebowser for a couple hours. Fun games, man. I'd say the 65:35 things was reinforced. I need to work on my edge-guarding, though it went as expected. I'm no good at dealing with things that float at face level with swords.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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I can play for about 45 minutes right now if your not busy Kalm.
Okay, after these games I learned a few important things.
They were really good games btw Squirrly. Great Ganon. Some of them were really close... and some of them were Brinstar. haha =)
Ganondorf can be hell if you have bad habits that get you punished. If you want to get rid of bad habits, play a Ganondorf lol. Its sorta a match up you have to get used to. You'll realize the dumb things your doing and try to cut back on them.
One thing I can defiantly tell you about this match up:
Needs moar Nair OoS.
REGARDLESS of how much Nair OoS you think your going to use, you'll be using MORE.
MUCH MORE.
Grabbing is a very scary. After you get punished for a single missed grab, you never wanna do one again. So basically grab only if your SUUUUREEEE it gonna grab them.
After Ganon gets you in a flame choke, your going to get Dtilted. No, you are. Unless he tries to mind game you into something else, expect Dtilt. I'm not sure if you can get out of it? I did a few times, but they were probably just flukes. All I know is that I was trying to DI like crazy. Anyway, after you get hit by Dtilt, it'll pop you up a little. During this time, GET AWAY. Don't try to fight back. Its a horrible position of be in. Just get out of there.
I tried going a few matches just like, 100% spammy as hell. It works for get a little damage, buuuuttt it can only last for a short period until the Ganon reaches you. Also, I found it to not be very effective considering Ganon can make up all that damage in like, 1 or 2 hits. So I figure the best option is to just go toe-to-toe with Ganon and mix in projectiles.
Recovering. Blah. That Uair thing sucks. It looks really funny though lmao. Anyway, Have a bomb out when your recovering. It will DEFIANTLY help. It saved me a stock a number of times. If you don't have a bomb out, FAIR!!!! Fair a DI. also helpful. Worse then the Uair is the Dair imo. Cuz even with a bomb, your probably gonna die.
Uhhh.
All I can remember right now. ^_^
65-35 seems like a very good ratio.
Okay, after these games I learned a few important things.
They were really good games btw Squirrly. Great Ganon. Some of them were really close... and some of them were Brinstar. haha =)
Ganondorf can be hell if you have bad habits that get you punished. If you want to get rid of bad habits, play a Ganondorf lol. Its sorta a match up you have to get used to. You'll realize the dumb things your doing and try to cut back on them.
One thing I can defiantly tell you about this match up:
Needs moar Nair OoS.
REGARDLESS of how much Nair OoS you think your going to use, you'll be using MORE.
MUCH MORE.
Grabbing is a very scary. After you get punished for a single missed grab, you never wanna do one again. So basically grab only if your SUUUUREEEE it gonna grab them.
After Ganon gets you in a flame choke, your going to get Dtilted. No, you are. Unless he tries to mind game you into something else, expect Dtilt. I'm not sure if you can get out of it? I did a few times, but they were probably just flukes. All I know is that I was trying to DI like crazy. Anyway, after you get hit by Dtilt, it'll pop you up a little. During this time, GET AWAY. Don't try to fight back. Its a horrible position of be in. Just get out of there.
I tried going a few matches just like, 100% spammy as hell. It works for get a little damage, buuuuttt it can only last for a short period until the Ganon reaches you. Also, I found it to not be very effective considering Ganon can make up all that damage in like, 1 or 2 hits. So I figure the best option is to just go toe-to-toe with Ganon and mix in projectiles.
Recovering. Blah. That Uair thing sucks. It looks really funny though lmao. Anyway, Have a bomb out when your recovering. It will DEFIANTLY help. It saved me a stock a number of times. If you don't have a bomb out, FAIR!!!! Fair a DI. also helpful. Worse then the Uair is the Dair imo. Cuz even with a bomb, your probably gonna die.
Uhhh.
All I can remember right now. ^_^
65-35 seems like a very good ratio.
TP
Smash Master
After a choke, Ganon needs to buffer the Dtilt and Ftilt correctly or they will not be guaranteed. It is difficult to do consistently online, which is probably why you escaped sometimes. As for your recovery, Squirrely said he needs to work on it and I have played him and it is probably true (No offense, Squirrely). The bottom line is that a RAR FF Uair has massive range, great priority, and is super fast (especially by Ganon standards). I hope you play Kalm, since he is very good at it.
That's my two cents.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
If you have bomb and you get dair'd you will drop the bomb I believe.
stRIP
Smash Ace
Squirrely is actually really good.
Played him in a lot of matches and they all are close
stRIP
Smash Ace
/delete ._. sry wanted to edit
TP
Smash Master
I know he is good. He is better than me, beating me the majority the time.
He still isn't good at edgeguarding.
<Insert something about Toon Link here>