New momentum code 4.0

It may have a small bug with losing too much momentum but that doesn't mean we can't play around with the values and find the correct ones that we want until the fix comes out. The scale is the same as V3 so here is the value at 100% for everyone that worked very well

FF001000

IIRC the only changes to v3 that we wanted was to lower ganon and lucarios momentum and increase ZSS and sonic. Well As it stands, ZSS seems fine and Sonic could use toning down. In fact, maybe some of the characters that weren't affected from v3 could also use some toning down as well

If you use the earlier rendition, (his first v4), i think the AD works better from what I hear.

-Ganon, Lucario, Sheik, D3, MK all need momentum lowered.

-Sonic & ZSS need slight momentum increase

-I'd also tone global down to about 90% or so because we are making approaches a little too easy right now.

Aww I guess global could be turned down. But I felt that 95 was pretty good. It seemed to make a lot of sense.

Are you talking about the longer version of the code?

Yes, the first long version.

I would do this as a starting point:

Dorf: 85%
Lucario: 75%
Sheik: 60%
D3: 70%
MK: 70%

Sonic & ZSS, not sure how well it applies over 1.

Sonic and ZZS doesn't need to be over one. As I stated, Sonic goes flying at 1 and needs to be toned down.

Ah alright, missed that one (Im in class lol). If he flies like v10, try out 50%

I posted your recommended list in the OP

EDIT:
Ganon seems fine now.
Sonic at 50 does nothing. It needs to be upped
ZSS gets an tiny arrows length on FD
Lucario is perfect
MK gets a smidget
DDD gets hardly any

Aight, seems like progress. Lets try this.

Dorf: 85%
Lucario: 75%
Sheik: 60%
D3: 70%
MK: 75%
Sonic: 75%
ZSS:95% (did you mean too little or too much)

Global 90%


I bolded the changes from last time.

Edit: 1500 posts

I don't get why we're toning down momentum on characters that aren't broken with it. I have yet to play a character with momentum and thought "oh no this is too much," especially the ones that you've listed as needing to be toned down. The only exception to this is sonic, who apparently flies now like he did in v10. From what I've seen so far, the only character that has been said to have "too much" to actually play well is sonic, who needs to be toned down to make his aerials work properly.

In short, stop nerfing momentum for characters when they play better with the higher values. If it was obstructing their game, I'd understand, but it just plain isn't. If it was making them too good for everyone else, I'd understand, but it just plain isn't. It doesn't matter if it doesn't "look right" for ganon to jump as far as he does (personally, I don't have this problem, however, apparently some people do). He plays better with it and it doesn't break him. Make these changes from a balance perspective. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Alright Leaf, you want proof.

Sheik, run jump nair. Rinse repeat, its broken with that much momentum.
D3 can nair across half the stage and suck across half the stage as well. ********.
MK, I'm sure you won't complain here.
Lucario, should not get more speed just by jumping, seriously looked stupid before AND hurt his juggle game.
Dorf: Should not play like falcon.

Seriously, approaches should not be mindless. Think a bit past fun leafgreen and think more towards balance. I love crazy high momentum. I also want a tournament viable game.

Alright, update, please use this momentum file:

Sonic did not work properly till 175%
-Momentum V4
Dorf: 85%
Lucario: 75%
Sheik: 60%
D3: 70%
MK: 75%
Sonic: 175%
Global 90%


Momentum Capture V4 [Phantom wings, spunit262]
C28669D8 00000014
C04283D8 FC811040
4186008C 807D007C
80630038 2C03000B
40A20074 3C008180
809D0008 8084FFFC
7C040000 4080000C
80840030 48000008
3880FFFF 3C004540
901B000C C05B000C
38A2FE5C 84C50004
7CC0C671 4180000C
7C002000 4082FFF0
54C0027E 6C004540
B01B000E C01B000C
FC001028 C05B0008
FC420032 FC011040
4C002182 40800008
FC201090 2C030022
40800008 D03B0008
60000000 00000000

Momentum Capture V4 Data [spunit262]
065A9180 00000020
14000D9A 21000C00
0E00099A 20000B33
16000C00 2F001C00
FF000E66 00000000

Why are we giving Sonic less momentum???

spunit262 said:

Why are we giving Sonic less momentum???

Click to expand...

We shouldn't be..That isn't what my tv is telling me

Shanus, if anything, I think 95 is fine. No need to bring it down to 90%

Isn't Sonic momentum horrible at 100%?

It is but for some reason, I'm trying 175% and its perfect.

I think that ganon could stand to be 5% more at least

175% is more momentum.

Yea that is what it seems like. I have no idea why it actually acts less than 100. It feels more like 55%. Makes no sense

Updated settings more:
Values:
-Momentum V4
Dorf: 85%
Lucario: 75%
Sheik: 75%
D3: 70%
MK: 75%
Sonic: 175%
ZSS: 110%
Global 90%


Also, Falco's FH needs to be set to value of 4, not 6.

You think ganon's approach is mindless? Wow. That's terribly ignorant. It's far from it. His nair and fair are his two best aerial approach options, and both have very punishable lag if you're not smart with them (and in the case of the fair, punishable startup, too). The momentum just gives him a larger area he can cover with his approach, and honestly, is something that he needs. He still has to approach tactfully. His opponent can throw off his fair approach just by walking forward and shielding, which will cause the move to fail to sweetspot and get him shieldgrabbed. If you predict they will do that and instead they hang back, you end up fairing short, whiffing, and you will get punished, possibly by a smash. All momentum does is let him have options so he can vary his approaches. It doesn't break him and it certainly doesn't make them "mindless."

As for sheik... are we playing the same character, here? She doesn't get that much momentum. Nothing like fox's, anyway, who has a very similar nair and gets enough momentum so that it can be spaced so that you land behind your opponent leading into a free utilt.

On DDD... again, are we playing the same character, here? His sh goes the length of the diamond on FD. His nair won't even hit characters on the ground near the end of that range if you start it when it will finish before landing. His B might be a bit more potent, but I'm really not seeing anything too broken about this in the slightest.

Lucario, should not get more speed just by jumping, seriously looked stupid before AND hurt his juggle game.

Click to expand...

And this is all I care about. I'll admit that lucario does get some pretty ridiculous momentum, but er... he doesn't actually get faster (psst... neither does ganon). He just happens to transfer most of his momentum into his jump. The fact that we're just not used to seeing his jump with momentum is what makes it look like it "speeds up." That said, I do agree that he would be better off with a little less momentum. From my testing, he can't do a running jump -> fair -> fair/nair without the second fair or the nair hitting the opponent backwards.

Also, fun fact that I've been waiting to mention: it's impossible for a character to be hurt by giving them momentum. Physically impossible. If they need to, they can still use their regular jump by simply releasing forward on the control stick when they hit the jump button and then press forward again for regular air control. So technically, lucario doesn't lose anything at all with momentum, and instead gains a little more gimp and higher percent combo potential. Not saying he wouldn't be better off with a lower momentum value, though.

Also, I have nothing against the standard 100% momentum for the generalized application. Why are we dropping this down to 90%?

I updated the OP and the only thing I changed is that I removed ganon from the list so he is 90% like the global setting as we discussed

Leaf, I never said ganons approach was mindless, I was saying generalized momentum at absurd values is mindless. He's one of the few characters where you cant traverse a huge distance and be almost guaranteed safe on the approach.

When a majority of our neutrals can be crossed 90% within 1 jump by many members of the cast, you know your going too heavy handed. I could fly across over half of FD in an nair as falcon and pika and lucario and more. I could go straight through the other player, back and forth. Or run and jump away all I want and be campy as hell with it. I'm sorry, but its not right.

And characters can't be hurt by momentum? You contradicted yourself right there as you agreed with me on Lucario. Oops? And no, he can't combo better with it at higher percent either. Try it, it was terrible for him. In fact, prove me wrong if your confident about it and post clips of him rocking it up and I'll eat my words. I have a lucario player in my group and it felt terrible to him like that. Dropped him down to like 85% now and he plays fantastic.

Also, individual characters might get buffed by momentum, but is that good for the game? Fox was **** at FH 1.1, doesn't mean he should have it. Plain and simple, approaches become WAY too easy at high enough momentums. 10% drop is not that substantial, but its definitely better than before. The jumps still go far and fast, but its tighter and still benefits combos just as much as before. And the approaches don't cover an entire stage.

We are making a game for tournaments here where we want momentum to assist combos and speed up the pace. We don't want to ruin one of the best aspects of smash, and thats the delicate player/player approach game. Stop and think for a minute about how detrimental to the gameplay this will be if every character can fly as far as they did. Its fun as hell, but so broken.

Try it all out, it feels very very polished at these values.

Well, I like the new momentum code except for one small problem.

There are some specials that still have momentum, even though it's detrimental to the character (once again, Sonic). Maybe we could find some way to exempt these characters from the code (only when doing momentum altering specials).

Geez, why does Sonic cause so many problems. lol His jumping momentum is fine, but he still can't combo from his spin dash jump. He's got a lot of cool things going for him now (RAR approaches, cross-up fairs, longer combos, ect.) but...I hate taking stuff away from characters.

My friends and I all joke that the game was made perfect, then Nintendo decided to give the source code to SEGA to add sonic in which they proceeded to glitch the game up and turn it into vbrawl.

But in any case, he was thrown together at the last minute but I am having a hard time actually seeing this spin dash problem you keep mentioning. It looks no different than vbrawl to me. I see no momentum.

On another note, I was looking at a melee vid and something jumped out. Do double jumps hold momentum? Look at this combo. His momentum didn't seem to change at all with the double jump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y8rQ_0zNIg#t=2m46s

kupo15 said:

But in any case, he was thrown together at the last minute but I am having a hard time actually seeing this spin dash problem you keep mentioning. It looks no different than vbrawl to me. I see no momentum.

Click to expand...

Do a down B on the ground, then jump into the air. Cancel the spindash by doing an attack (other than dair), behold, the problem that I'm talking about.

The same thing happens with side B after you start to roll on the ground (because at that point they are the same move, mechanics-wise). This rolling "phase" is referred to as "spin-dash roll" or SDR, for short. When you do a jump during this "phase", you will jump while still spinning. This is referred to as "spin-dash jump" or SDJ for short. When you cancel Sonic's SDJ with an attack in vBrawl, his momentum resets to his max airspeed. But now, that SDJ momentum is carried with him even after he cancels the move, making him go past his opponents (and thus unable to combo them).

It's a minor part of his game, but it still sees it's uses for punishing opponents (especially with the amount of mixups that you can get from ASC, which leads directly into the previously mentioned "phases")

kupo15 said:

On another note, I was looking at a melee vid and something jumped out. Do double jumps hold momentum? Look at this combo. His momentum didn't seem to change at all with the double jump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y8rQ_0zNIg#t=2m46s

Click to expand...

They don't hold momentum, they just use the character's max airspeed. Falcon's max airspeed is actually decent in melee (it's just not that obvious because of how fast he falls, so he doesn't get that much distance in the air before reaching the ground again).

I know its a crude fix Dark Sonic, but when i do spin dash i cancel it with a secodn jump immediately to cancel the momentum and it works fine. Its not perfect, but still lets it be useful.

^^I already knew about that, but doing that wastes my second jump, making me unable to spinshot to follow my opponent if they DI'd in the opposite direction. Ultimately it just breaks my momentum and I lose my positioning advantage in the match, which is what Sonic relys on to keep his juggles and combos going.

*sigh,* I know it's just a small thing that really only affects one character (that happens to be my main), so we can still use this code in the official release. I guess I'll just have to rely less on ASC for tech chases and spacing adjustments. Sonic's fine without it...it's just annoying.

It's unfortunate to ever lose viable tactics with a character, but that can sometimes be the name of the game. I just can't play Sonic (I'm inept I guess) but on a whole do you think he plays better with the momentum or without?

I hate how annoyingly confusing sonic is. Spinshot? ASC? What? Even with that thread you showed me, I just can't get these names and acronyms in my head to understand them which makes helping sonic pointless for me anyways....


So you are saying that a jump from the spinshot (?) acts like a standing jump instead of moving forward? Really? Who would have known. It looked natural as if it always was like that >.<

goodoldganon said:

It's unfortunate to ever lose viable tactics with a character, but that can sometimes be the name of the game. I just can't play Sonic (I'm inept I guess) but on a whole do you think he plays better with the momentum or without?

Click to expand...

Sonic as a whole plays better with the momentum. So I guess it's just a loss I'll have to accept (until it can be fixed of course)

kupo15 said:

I hate how annoyingly confusing sonic is. Spinshot? ASC? What? Even with that thread you showed me, I just can't get these names and acronyms in my head to understand them which makes helping sonic pointless for me anyways....


So you are saying that a jump from the spinshot (?) acts like a standing jump instead of moving forward? Really? Who would have known. It looked natural as if it always was like that >.<

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI&feature=related

2:05. It's called "Spin jump" in the video, but the official name for the technique is spinshot. However, to perform it, you need to have your second jump (spinshot is actually a glitch caused by jump canceling one frame after you release either Sonic's side B or his ASC)

What's important is that it can be done in either direction (since you can do it from a side B), and is faster than falling to the ground and running after them (in some cases). So I'd much prefer to keep my second jump while comboing, just in case I need to chase them like this (or just use my jump to extend the combo a little more).


ASC is "aerial spin charge" which is just doing Sonic's down B in the air. We gave it an accronym to differentiate between Side B and down B, as they have different properties both in the air and on the ground. I could go into more detail if you really want to know the mechanics of each "phase" of Sonic's spins.

Double post

SUPER AMAZING GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING SONIC's SIDE B AND DOWN B MECHANICS.

Well, I saw this guide a while ago, but I just remembered how useful it is and how easy it is to explain stuff when you have a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k&feature=channel_page

shanus said:

Leaf, I never said ganons approach was mindless, I was saying generalized momentum at absurd values is mindless. He's one of the few characters where you cant traverse a huge distance and be almost guaranteed safe on the approach.

When a majority of our neutrals can be crossed 90% within 1 jump by many members of the cast, you know your going too heavy handed. I could fly across over half of FD in an nair as falcon and pika and lucario and more. I could go straight through the other player, back and forth. Or run and jump away all I want and be campy as hell with it. I'm sorry, but its not right.

Click to expand...

The proportions of jump height and speed of dash to distance gained from momentum are fine. The problem is that stages are small, and that's the part of the proportion that's off. If someone is rushing you with aerials landing behind you all the time, they can be intercepted easily enough. The ability to fly that far isn't inherently broken. It's really just brawl being stupid for why it doesn't "look right." I think that there are other changes that can be made to make the proportions all work correctly, but scaling momentum down is just a bandaid fix.

And characters can't be hurt by momentum? You contradicted yourself right there as you agreed with me on Lucario. Oops? And no, he can't combo better with it at higher percent either. Try it, it was terrible for him. In fact, prove me wrong if your confident about it and post clips of him rocking it up and I'll eat my words. I have a lucario player in my group and it felt terrible to him like that. Dropped him down to like 85% now and he plays fantastic.

Click to expand...

I never contradicted myself. I said that characters cannot be hurt by momentum. Then I said that having less momentum can be better for a character than more momentum. No where did I say having more momentum could be worse than no momentum. The fact of the matter is, you have all of your same options available as you did before. If you just release the stick from forward when you execute your jump, you'll perform your regular standing jump, even if you were in a dash or run. Momentum can only add options. However, a moderate distance gained from momentum can be superior to a large distance gained from momentum, and for lucario this is obviously the case.

Also, individual characters might get buffed by momentum, but is that good for the game? Fox was **** at FH 1.1, doesn't mean he should have it. Plain and simple, approaches become WAY too easy at high enough momentums. 10% drop is not that substantial, but its definitely better than before. The jumps still go far and fast, but its tighter and still benefits combos just as much as before. And the approaches don't cover an entire stage.

Click to expand...

Yeah... I feel that your problem is more with the proportion of the character attributes to the stage size than of momentum. I think if gravity was higher and aerials were faster that the proportions would be much more appropriate, as characters would land faster, so you wouldn't fly as far, although that would screw up what we've done so far for all of the characters.

We are making a game for tournaments here where we want momentum to assist combos and speed up the pace. We don't want to ruin one of the best aspects of smash, and thats the delicate player/player approach game. Stop and think for a minute about how detrimental to the gameplay this will be if every character can fly as far as they did. Its fun as hell, but so broken.

Click to expand...

If they approach mindlessly, they'll get wrecked. Period. I don't think this is a valid point at all.

Also, you never answered what I said about sheik and ddd. I'm not seeing what you're seeing from them, and I'd like a response as to why sheik needs to be lowered but fox does not, when fox has the "problem" far more than sheik does.

Try it all out, it feels very very polished at these values.

Click to expand...

I will try it out, of course, but I really think that we're needlessly dropping momentum when it already scales just fine for most characters.

Sheik doesn't actually receive momentum below 100%, so it doesn't matter for her. And D3, a heavy char, a running fullhop suck should not go nearly as far as it did.

Also, you said it yourself, this momentum is not proportional to Brawl settings. The fact is gravity is not higher and feels great as is. Aerials aren't faster. Stage sizes are staying as is. And when I said it made approaches mindless, its hyperbole. What it means is that it makes approaches trivial and easily abused. When you can fly through characters back and forth with fair and more, its too much. You're making a huge deal about something which is fairly obvious. If we were to leave momentum at its current value, you and you alone would be advocating a change which would completely destroy the great gameplay we have so far because approaching would be SO easy. Might as well set ALR to 0 and raise shield stun while your at it.

Try it out. The sky isn't falling. You can still jump far. You just can't clear smashville in 1 jump anymore. Its so much better to go conservative for something like this, and this isn't even conservative lol.

I wasn't sure about the new change but I tried it and it works well. Not only is it applying it to every character, it's also applying it in a way that is incredibly beneficial but also makes for approaches that are not only viable, but not too absurd with characters flying back and forth across the stage. It's weird, but this just feel right. If only we could fix some small problems, like Sonic, things would be great.

shanus said:

Sheik doesn't actually receive momentum below 100%, so it doesn't matter for her. And D3, a heavy char, a running fullhop suck should not go nearly as far as it did.
.

Click to expand...

Then lets get her out of the char specifics

Fair enough. Like I said, I'll put in some good testing time on 90, but approaches weren't feeling OP at all before.

kupo15 said:

Then lets get her out of the char specifics

Click to expand...

Try going ridiculously high (like you did with Sonic) to see the effect (like how Sonic slowed down when you gave him more momentum, lol).

DarkSonic, I just played as sonic for a while (recorded a lot of it too), Sonic is pretty dirty with this momentum :O

^^Yeah I know. He can chain aerials across the stage, he can juggle forever, he can edgeguard in the bubble, he can WOP, and his aerial approaches got a lot better (with the introduction of aerial cross-ups). Sonic loves momentum (except for the SDJ part which I will include until it is fixed).

After playing around with 90% global, I moved up to 95 and it feels much better. I recommend this setting