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Yoshi v. Wario

Shiri

Smash Chump
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Nov 7, 2004
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:yoshi: This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Wario matchup.
 

Frown

poekmon
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With or without infinite?

With infinite: Yoshi's favour. [removed numbers because shiri doesn't like them]

Without infinite: This can get tricky. Before I learned about Yoshi's grab release, I had problems with that nasty fsmash. I generally play well against characters with bad air control, which Wario doesn't have.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I think we should refrain from using numbers here.

Although I do agree that using the infinite does tip the scales in our favor considerably, I think that most of the work in the matchup will go to actually catching Wario as he's running around tossing out air fakes and priority bombs everywhere. Aside from the grab release, though, I think general grab camping works to Yoshi's favor here and will generally force Wario to switch over to either a game based entirely on running away or a game focuses on punishing sloppy Yoshi plays (early grabs, bad dashes-in, etc.).
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Doing the infinate is increadibly stupid. You get 1-3 damage per grab and if he breaks out(doing 100 grabs in a row can be difficult) he can dair to fsmash/grab you, which, if they grab, can lead to more damage, and either option will do around 5-20 grabs worth of damage, depending on what percent they are at. It is also against the rules because it takes like over a minute to infinate a stock, and that is stalling. Its also increadibly gay, and i dont like being too gay :p Sometimes i will do 5 grabs or something to refresh my usmash, then grab release usmash.

I agree with shiri, grab camping is really good. Wario is almost impossible to grab, but grab camping makes him wary. Usmash beats dair, but only if you predict it, cuz they can just airdodge down and **** you.

I needa play fiction or something.
 

Snowstalker

Smash Ace
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Messages
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I dunno, I'm a sucker for ratios.

Anyway, it's best to not use the infinite until 50% or so, unless you want him to break out.
 

Gindler

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Well...I've played a good wario...like really good and all I can say is, don't rely on that "infinite" as wario's refuse to get grabbed anymore.

So with infinite I'd say it's pretty even, without infinite it's still pretty even (since it hardly matters against good tricky warios)
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: I always have to remind myself that when Wario is running away and jumping that he is always setting up.

I try really hard to not take the bait and rush in. Wario players never really run out of patience since their camping is not even camping to them, really, so you have to be on your toes a lot and make them afraid of that grab. Remember, even if you don't infinite, the grab release to KO is plenty good on its own merits.
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
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Man, I have too much to say about this matchup. Once we learn the spacing on your pivot grab, you're in really big trouble (well, not really, but hyperbole is nice), as you'll be hard press to land them... ever (unless you combo into one with an egg toss or something).

If you grab camp, believe me, we WILL catch on, and we WILL punish you, do NOT resort to it. You're better off mixing it up than just pivot grabbing repeatedly to "scare us." You can still do more than decently against us with your backairs and high priority smash attacks, try to stay mobile, try not to shield ever if you can, haha. Egg camp on the ledge a bit doesn't hurt either, just be cautious, I almost cuaght Bwett with a run-off-the-edge pivot bite while he attempted this (which stage spikes, or puts you under the stage, which is not a good position for Yoshi's to be in.

Every stage has platforms, except FD, btw, which Warios should ban against Yoshi, so the infinite is not really that reliable, especially if you're barely getting grabs to begin with, and if we can mash out on your first "jab." Also, as great as your aerial speed may be, without landing those grabs, you will have one HELL of a time killing us. I had Bwett chase me for almost a minute trying to kill me in a doubles match to no avail XD

So basically, don't let us get a stock up, b/c that gives us the chance ot aircamp you, don't "grab camp" b/c that's readable, and we can dair the top of your heads while you try it, shield minimally, and stay mobile.

We actually think once both people are competent in the matchup Wario has slight advantage (I'm not going to do number) over Yoshi. If the Wario doesn't know the spacing though, it's murder, haha (*has nightmares of first match against Bwett ever*)
 

DMG

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DMG#931
There are different numbers for this IMO:

If the infinite is not allowed (Limit of 5 or 3 continuous grab releases) then Wario wins 65 : 35 on most of the neutrals depending on what your neutrals are, I'd say FD or YI would be the worst for Wario (60: 40 on those). The reason for this is that basically if you get Wario to camp Yoshi, Yoshi can't try to make things even with a comeback infinite. The best he can try for will be grab release to Usmash to try and catch up % wise. That or try to Egg Toss/Poke with Bair/try anything lol.


If the infinite is allowed, I'd say Wario wins 55 : 45 - 60:40 on most of the neutrals, worst stages being YI and FD. If Yoshi's infinite was not interrupt able at earlier %'s, you could just go for the infinite from the get go and probably have the advantage. The problem though is that you have to wrack up at least 40% before you can even think about starting the infinite, otherwise I will break free (I can do it til about 50% but only on good days lol). If Wario gets a % lead on you, and he isn't above 40%, you better try really friggen hard to stop him from camping you. It's only a small disadvantage with him camping with a % lead, but if he's up a stock and puts some % on you and still isn't dead, you are really gonna have to overcome a ridiculous disadvantage.


I've played Bwett a bit, we've not played in tournament but we have done serious sets just to get an idea on the matchup and I think he agrees with me, probably not on the 65:35 part but just the overall feeling that Wario has a slight advantage. I'll see what he says.

Also, Burntsocks if you play Fiction, tell him not to get bored camping with Wario lol. I know he sometimes just kinda throws the camping idea out the window when he plays people, but that's a bad idea if you're doing a set trying to figure out matchup ratios with other characters, especially against someone like Yoshi.
 

Snowstalker

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I still say that it's about even, maybe a little in Yushee's favor. The two are similar in a lot of ways. Without the infinite, I'd say about 55:45 to 60:40 in Walleo's advantage. Either way, it's an odd match.
 

SOVAman

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Doing the infinate is increadibly stupid. You get 1-3 damage per grab and if he breaks out(doing 100 grabs in a row can be difficult) he can dair to fsmash/grab you, which, if they grab, can lead to more damage, and either option will do around 5-20 grabs worth of damage, depending on what percent they are at. It is also against the rules because it takes like over a minute to infinate a stock, and that is stalling. Its also increadibly gay, and i dont like being too gay :p Sometimes i will do 5 grabs or something to refresh my usmash, then grab release usmash.

I agree with shiri, grab camping is really good. Wario is almost impossible to grab, but grab camping makes him wary. Usmash beats dair, but only if you predict it, cuz they can just airdodge down and **** you.

I needa play fiction or something.

I disagree with the don't infinite the infinite is easy and who cares if you only get like 3 damage each time it builds up and then you get the easy KO. The infinite is not hard at all and once you have the timing down you won't mess up. My tip on the infinite or not argument is if you know how to do it heck do it and get your easy KO. I don't understand why you don't want to burn a minute its a whole minute and that puts you at a stock and time advantage so why not.
 

Silent Beast

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I disagree with the don't infinite the infinite is easy and who cares if you only get like 3 damage each time it builds up and then you get the easy KO. The infinite is not hard at all and once you have the timing down you won't mess up. My tip on the infinite or not argument is if you know how to do it heck do it and get your easy KO. I don't understand why you don't want to burn a minute its a whole minute and that puts you at a stock and time advantage so why not.
I think what he also means by the "doing 100 grabs in a row can be difficult" part is that Wario can ground break the grab, and going for the infinite isn't worth the risk if Wario can break to the ground reasonably often. I'm assuming that the frame data from the ground break on Yoshi's grab are the same for the other grabs (30 frames of lag for both Yoshi and Wario). So, while Wario doesn't have a ground move that's faster than Yoshi's 3-frame jab, he can spotdodge on frame 2, and try to punish after that. It's safer to just take the upsmash damage.
 

The |Egg| Sniper

Smash Apprentice
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I can see where the warmup and wind down on the move can prove fatal to Yoshi, but I don't see a whole lot about Egg Toss on many of these threads. Mixing up eggs with aerials I feel would put more pressure on Wario to air camp. I don't even include tactics such as infinites, so I'm not even going to mention anything about it (not to mention, the rest of the responders seem to have this covered pretty well).

In terms of the ability to dodge out of jabs? Why not mix up two jabs to jab-egg lay, or jab to grab? Hopefully I don't sound too foolish if I'm not on key with what's being said.

This match just seems to be, as said before, a match of patience. If Yoshi runs in, Wario punishes him with a good dair or some other punishment. If Wario rushes in, he gets a grab, egg, or usmash to the face. I personally see this match as even, possibly slightly in Wario's favor depending on the stage.
 

Silent Beast

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In terms of the ability to dodge out of jabs? Why not mix up two jabs to jab-egg lay, or jab to grab? Hopefully I don't sound too foolish if I'm not on key with what's being said.
Well, what I was trying to say was that instead of trying to outguess Wario out of the ground break (which you would have to do, since there's no guarantee that you'll be able to hit him first), it's easier to just take the free damage from the upsmash. I was going to add a sentence clarifying that in my original post, but I guess I forgot.

Edit: Actually, on second look at the frame data, it looks like if Yoshi delays his second jab, he could guarantee at least one hit on Wario. Wario's spotdodge is invincible on frames 2-20, and ends on frame 25. Yoshi's first jab hits on frame 3, ends on frame 22 and is IASA frame 14 into his 2-frame second jab. If you delay the second jab by at least 5 frames so it hits on frame 21 or later, Yoshi would hit Wario with his second jab. Yoshi could even wait for the first jab animation to end on frame 22, and then jab again, and he'd still hit Wario (hit on frame 25 after the ground break, which is the last frame of lag on Wario's spotdodge). I think the original point still remains though; if the Wario is good enough at ground-breaking, the upsmash is safer.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
If Wario ground breaks, he can just shield lol. That beats anything but Yoshi's grab, and it's obvious to see when that will happen (plenty of time to roll/Spotdodge/attack before he grabs).
 

Furbs

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DMG you'll have to show me the ground break next time we play (i wont be at the next few hobos because of my acting but come see my show and i can house for 15!!) but i really don't think it would be a 65:35, you're saying this because you're running the clock and baiting with airdodges, a strategy that has yet to win you a big texas tournament :p (not to mention the other gay stuff that happens to you, platform saving olimar at hobo 10! LOL!!! T_T)

I really don't see it as a viable strategy when discussing matchups, sense we could use the same logic in this matchup as well : /
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Uh... Yoshi can't camp Wario that well lol. Egg Toss is a no no, and while you move faster going one direction in the air we easily beat you guys at trying to change directions in the air.

I don't think any other Yoshi will argue that Yoshi can camp Wario nearly as well as Wario running around.
 

Furbs

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yeah i do agree with that, given warios arial accelleration , but couldn't we just camp the ledge with eggs?

also are you gonna come see my show!? :)

Edit: my matchup exp. comes from playing pop-top ( who is a surprisingly underestimated wario considering he's beaten xyro, stiltz, and fliphop in bracket)
 

DMG

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DMG#931
yeah i do agree with that, given warios arial accelleration , but couldn't we just camp the ledge with eggs?

also are you gonna come see my show!? :)
Lol I'll just PS the eggs or go harass you on the edge. Billy's had some close calls with that where I almost gimp him hard for trying to do that lol.

And yeah I will maybe see your show, IDK I'm riding with Dallas so if they go to see it then I will.
 

Furbs

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yeah i can house dallas at my place for hobo 15 let me know the details

lol i guess I'd have to play you to get the full effect of what you're saying; people play differently afterall

Edit: my call on saturday isn't till 6:00, so i may stop by hobo 14 to get some friendlies in
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
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Popertop has been getting better lately from what I hear, which is sexy. Wario domination. Egg camping has various degrees of effectiveness. I've dtilted, ftiled, and almost pivot bitten Bwett off the edge when attempting it, b/c our ftilt outprioritizes eggs. You can also only throw them a limited number of times before having to get back up.


What acting do you do exactly? Theater? What are you going to be in?
 

Furbs

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Im cast as Algernon Moncrieff in the importance of being earnest, and yeah it's theater

if you wanna do our MM on saturday I'm down, i really wanna go but i know if i go im gonna stay too long >< plus i wasn't counting on going this weekend so i unwisely spent what little cash i had on my paintball gun LOL!!!

I really wanna go though now that you dmg and bwett will be there, then we can all meet and discuss like gentlemen
 

SOVAman

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I think what he also means by the "doing 100 grabs in a row can be difficult" part is that Wario can ground break the grab, and going for the infinite isn't worth the risk if Wario can break to the ground reasonably often. I'm assuming that the frame data from the ground break on Yoshi's grab are the same for the other grabs (30 frames of lag for both Yoshi and Wario). So, while Wario doesn't have a ground move that's faster than Yoshi's 3-frame jab, he can spotdodge on frame 2, and try to punish after that. It's safer to just take the upsmash damage.
All the Warios I infinite NEVER ground break so I just do the infinite and also @DMG You said that you can just shield but if you do that I just re-grab you.
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
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Im cast as Algernon Moncrieff in the importance of being earnest, and yeah it's theater

if you wanna do our MM on saturday I'm down, i really wanna go but i know if i go im gonna stay too long >< plus i wasn't counting on going this weekend so i unwisely spent what little cash i had on my paintball gun LOL!!!

I really wanna go though now that you dmg and bwett will be there, then we can all meet and discuss like gentlemen
If you don't have the money to cover it at the time we don't have to do it. I spread out all my MMs for this very reason XD
 

DMG

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DMG#931
All the Warios I infinite NEVER ground break so I just do the infinite and also @DMG You said that you can just shield but if you do that I just re-grab you.
Grabbing takes awhile. If we both recover from lag at the same time, my grab will always beat yours speed wise, even if I shield and see you trying to grab me.

Basically, when both characters are right next to each other after the ground break, no one has the advantage. It's a guessing game for both, with the safest choice being shield since you can spotdodge after shielding, attack OOS, roll, or keep shielding.

Also, if the Wario's you play against aren't breaking to the ground under 50% or so then we need to talk to them lol. They need to be faster next time.
 

SOVAman

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Grabbing takes awhile. If we both recover from lag at the same time, my grab will always beat yours speed wise, even if I shield and see you trying to grab me.

If you shield and I go for a grab you can't grab me while I already started my grab you can't shield grab a grab. And you can't grab while I am already grabbing. Yes it is faster but you still can't shield you would have to go straight for the grab if you want to beat my grab.
 

Bwett

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I'm finding that CG in general with Yoshi is too unreliable. Many of the people I play get out of them on the second grab, especially UTD Zac and DMG. Rather than trying to infinite that is not guaranteed and does barely any damage per grab, I would rather up smash and get a guaranteed percentage. DMG and PX know what they are talking about. Wario is hard to catch and hard to hit. I would say it is around 60:40 Wario
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'm finding that CG in general with Yoshi is too unreliable. Many of the people I play get out of them on the second grab, especially UTD Zac and DMG. Rather than trying to infinite that is not guaranteed and does barely any damage per grab, I would rather up smash and get a guaranteed percentage. DMG and PX know what they are talking about. Wario is hard to catch and hard to hit. I would say it is around 60:40 Wario
Bwett wins the thread.
 

Sharky

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Im cast as Algernon Moncrieff in the importance of being earnest
get.

out.

of.

here.

Wow....

WOW.

I'm currently rehearsing for the same role in the same play over here at my school. Yoshi's are officially amazing. XD


Grabbing takes awhile. If we both recover from lag at the same time, my grab will always beat yours speed wise, even if I shield and see you trying to grab me.

Basically, when both characters are right next to each other after the ground break, no one has the advantage. It's a guessing game for both, with the safest choice being shield since you can spotdodge after shielding, attack OOS, roll, or keep shielding.

Also, if the Wario's you play against aren't breaking to the ground under 50% or so then we need to talk to them lol. They need to be faster next time.
Pivot grab, you definitely can't shield grab if I've started dashing away from you. And if I notice that you like to spotdodge, then I'll run through you and pivot grab you from the other side.

I agree about the under 50% bit, though. A few eggs plus some other campy chip hits can fix that, though.
 

bigman40

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Just another day.
CG (can you even CG wario? I mean NOT infinite him) isn't really something to rely on here. It's still useful when you need to reset play and get some dmg (or maybe a kill) in.
 

Sharky

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Technically even the infinite is a CG, and if you wanted, you could do a dash-dance grab (not a pivot grab) to move across the stage. But I agree, the infinite shouldn't be the major point of the match. Too unreliable, unless you're at kill range.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
The point I was making gentlemen is that neither character has the advantage when they are both in front of each other and recover at the same time. They both can reset the position if needed.
 

PhantomX

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The point I was making gentlemen is that neither character has the advantage when they are both in front of each other and recover at the same time. They both can reset the position if needed.
Good evening, gentlemen.
All your matchups are belong to us.
Make your time.
 
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