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Hive

Smash Lord
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SAMUS ♥♥
*What is the ratio(95-5 in XYZ's favor?) (50-50) depending a lot on spacing as well as player skill

*What to watch out for(what tactics does XYZ do that we should avoid)

-Zair/spacing/taking advantage of openings is KEY-ok samus dittos imo are pretty lame comparitevly to other dittoes to other characters. ^^ Actually the main thing about samus dittoes is that it is almost entirely about zair spacing battle which is pretty annoying. chances are if your not zairing or missling (or grabbing when the opponent is put in a situation where he will obviously shield) your opponent is, so its hard to approach each other during the course of the match. this is a really spammy battle just bc the entire setup is usually keep spacing and try to exploit any openings you create in the opponents defense for combos (usually dash to upb, or uair to missile if the opponent if you are coming up from under the person, or uair to fair to upb, fair or missile maybe to dtilt, and uair to upb is some stuff i usually use) this usually is semi tricky against other characters, however, when your opponent is equally up to keeping his/her distance for long amounts of time you bet a lot of the battle will take place at long ranges, with sparse close range encoutners in between (that usually just create spacing again quickly after damage has been inflicted :p).

-Charge Shots

getting off a charged shot is a pretty big deal here imo and usually it ends up being who can get more of them off then the other. knowing when your opponent prefers to shoot them is a BIG deal, especially when it has the capacity to kill without having to risk a full approach (it is a very useful kill move here, less risky/punishable then say charging in for a dtilt or fsmash imo)!.

-Off-ledge Game
her offledge game is pretty important, since samus has such a good recovery and spike if you hit someone off they are still going to have the capacity to challenge you offstage. again its mainly about knowing and predicting their movements. most samuses will try to save their jumps by bombjumping and then come in with a jump and spike if the person goes out after them so keep this in mind. also keep in mind that samus is very vulnerable in her bomb jumps. this is not usually a problem with other characters since you will avoid bombjumping if the opponent is coming at you unless necessary, but since samus has zairs and missiles that can punish it at long distance its good to know and take advantage. Also try to predict when samuses will grapple as well and punish.

-Ledge Game
also don't forget that samus has an amazing (if not one of the best ledge games) so don't treat her on the ledge like other matchups, give the person space and spam if they have the ledge imo, don't set yourself up for fair to upb or something else from her ledge arsenal.


*What stages to ban and CP(give reasons why)
In theory any stage you pick the person should have an equal character advantage on. However, this does not mean that they will have a player advantage on you so picking levels that will benefit you more than the other person is key.
-If you don't space as well or want to make the battle more close range pick somewhere like brinstar or luigi's mansion maybe.
-If you want to play a place where you can take advantage of her ledge and platform game pick everyone's fave bf ^^
-If you have trouble with the other person's ledge game it might be a good idea to go to yoshi's.
-pokemon stadium one is a good place too for teching and staying alive if your opponent is better at pulling ko moves off than you are.
-If you are completely screwed pick rainbow cruise (idk) somewhere where you can maximize risky attacks (throwing someone off ledge, spikes, etc...) :)
-If you are xyro pick port town aero lol

*How does samus win or do well(go into detail on how we beat XYZ)

hmmm, i've pretty much said most of it already above, but just space and take care of openings mainly. use your charge shot, and don't be afraid play off ledge (especially when you are not protecting a lead) ^^. mainly know your own comparitive strenghts.

*Overall, what do you feel? Any last bit of info that you might want to include should go in a section of its own or include it on your "how does samus win/do well"

while spamming is imporant always try to take advantage of openings and keep pressure though, don't play TOO long distance, but you do have to be a bit patient. :) anyways, just some thoughts, hope that helps!
 

xXTACXx

Smash Journeyman
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Newfoundland, Canada
keep this thread series please. I would like to say that samus's Bair goes nicely through up b for a good edgeguard TACtic,but you have to be very very carful on the edge. Judging by me and sagos matchs, you **** up and bye bye lovely stock.
 

Hive

Smash Lord
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Sep 12, 2006
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Marth
*What is the ratio(95-5 in XYZ's favor?) A high level marth will beat a high level samus. period. This, I think, is honestly one of samus' hardest matchups (behind mk, ddd, and falco). and I would put this ratio at (80-20)? marth. samus can pull a win off in maybe 1/6-7 matches if the marth is playing serious. I don't think I am overaggerating this.

*What to watch out for(what tactics does XYZ do that we should avoid)

Aggressive/spacing
I've had marths tell me they like this matchup before bc it is one of the few matchups that marth can play really aggressively in. And it sort of shows... expect marth to be rushing in for combos a lot. Marth can space well and will keep you at shoulder length and his moves actually have a very good range. marth also has a few pretty good combos out of aerials, and dtilt as well. Marth likes to get up in her face a lot.

Shield/grab options
another thing to watch out for is marth's grab and out of shield game. both are pretty excellent. his grab is fast and his throws set up samus for hits (his fthrows can be chained into a lot* of moves, and his grab release is pretty good too). and his upb out of shield or in the middle of a combo is pretty annoying. I'd actually use the jab jab combo here more than usual than the jab to dtilt (unless you catch the opponent in the air) simply bc marths will usually break out of your jab to dtilt combo midway. Marths are able to use their down B counter to break combos as well and even counter charged shots, so if you become even slightly predictable expect this move to be ripped out. his ability to break out of combos decently is a problem for samus since she tacks on so much damage in short burst combos...

Off Ledge Pressure
Marth is able to force samus to recover a lot better than most other characters. assuming samus is recovering try to use your bomb jumping first to save your jump, and then try to zair him from a distance to open up space for your recovery. if marth fairs or bairs samus away (usually leftish and a little bit down) samus' recovery will start to become very predictable and he will be able to juggle her off stage pretty well. there is a point in samus' recovery where she is forced to bombjump, bombjump, and tether or screwattack to get back and can't do much other than this (when she is hit into corners or horizontally to the left (when she has lost her jump)). when this happens the marth will usually try to attack her while she is bombjumping or starting to tether if she is in tether range. her screw attack is good but you need to be closer to the ledge and marth will usually intercept you before you can use that...

Marth also has decent ledgeguards against samus. his sword has a range such that it can hit her out of a ledgehop or full ledgehop, and if you try to come up with fair against him he can sometimes shield to grab or just down b counter. If your in a place like battlefield it might be a good idea to try to attack him from under the ledge first (upb or zair thru the ledge) to open space... if not, maybe projectile spam, or tether stall to force him into an action. just try to mix it up

His over B combo(s)
HURT

His On-Stage Ko percentages
are also much better than samus' :(


*What stages to ban and CP(give reasons why)

hmm... I'd have to think about that... battlefield is always good for samus however marth also excels here. Avoid Lylat cruise though and definitely avoid Yoshi's Island.
I'd say pokemon stadium 1 or final destination would be my picks here, pokemon stadium 1 has a lot of stage tricks samus can use and a lot of places to stay alive as well.

I've always liked delfino too as a stadium if you are screwed against marth. it has walkoffs which you can use to play uber risky if you are disadvantaged-> you can use them to hide your charge shot or your grab (which will give you an instant stock if it hits) both pretty punsihable. I think Marth will beat you most of the time on delfino still, however, it allows the higher possibility of you winning overall imo, if you play risky, simply bc it allows a larger possibility of luck.

*How does samus win or do well(go into detail on how we beat XYZ)
like I said this match is hard! ^^ but samus does have a few strengths here that you can try to implement->

Projectile Spamming Long Range

play lame. one of samus' solid advantages in this match is playing the match long range. don't let marth approach too much because he will **** samus there. marth has like no projectiles so its pretty much a solid advantage here.

Marth's Recovery
her other pretty solid advantage in this matchup comes from her offledge game and her ability to gimp or spike marth, so try to focus on putting him in those kinds of situations... and spamming him with zair/projectile off the ledge.

samus can do some legit damage from the ledge if you play it right, but it won't create as much of an advantage as against other characters.

other than that, I don't know what to say... its hard to pinpoint why exactly marth wins at this matchup imo, but its pretty clear that he does when playing... ^^
 

Hive

Smash Lord
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Snake

*What is the ratio(95-5 in XYZ's favor?)
this matchup, seriously, at high levels of play against someone with legitimate samus will end up at least 70-30 snake. Snake has a pretty solid advantage in the match and samus should expect to win maybe one fourth/fifth of the matches. however, most snakes will not know samus well and it will play for them at about (60-40) samus.

ok before I go further into all of this though let me make one really important clarification. It does not matter who you play in this matchup. not nearly as much as how much samus experience they have. I've played quite a few snakes actually and most of the time samus will win this matchup. why? because samus has a very high surprise factor in this matchup that if the other person isn't used to will get hit hard with spams, spikes, and her ledge capabilities.
Overall player skill is not always a good indication of how much you will win this matchup. what is though is how much samus experience the other player has plus their player abilities. I'm not going to lie to you, when you see most snakes in tourney you will win most of the time. inexperienced snakes (with samus) are the easiest thing to take advantage of. however, when snake knows what he is doing he will **** in this matchup.

*What to watch out for(what tactics does XYZ do that we should avoid)

Utilit/KO moves
one of snake's biggest advantages in this matchup is his ko percentages. and the concept is simple, snake has like a million moves that can ko samus at low onstage percentages, and he can get to those percentage quickly. on the other hand snake is samus' second hardest ko percent in the entire game (behind ddd) and dtilt kos don't start until 150%+. for snake? he can ko samus at about 106% with his utilt (which has frightening range and speed), not to mention if he can pull off his fsmash somewhere. in a three stock match this means samus is already down about 150%. Realize his ko potential and don't play risky. yes this means you have to be a ***** and spam/play the ledge. this isn't going to be an offensive battle for samus.

Nades/explosives
Nades are one of his more annoying aspects. he can cook them and throw them at you, or if you are being very spammy he can just throw them at you and you'll have to take the time to avoid the timed explosion. which gives him the time to approach (mortar slide maybe) while there is a lapse in your spams. He can also use them to counter your attacks by dropping them and shielding as you attack so it blows up in your face. its very effective.
Also on areas with platforms he can use his c4 to block off areas and have blow up above you. in smashville planting in on the platform gives him a moving c4. be careful when around them, keep in mind where they are, and if you want try to get him to blow them up when you are prepared.

Ledge Game
Speaking of nades, snake is one of the few people that has a very decent time edgeguarding samus. If samus has a great arsenal from here, snake has an equal arsenal at blocking her attacks.
-mortars can be fired from the ledge to off the ledge making samus have to time out her approaches and avoid being vulnerable on the ledge as well as preventing samus from fulljumping out of it.
-well placed mines can stop many of samuses approaches without first neutralizing them. Also its one of the most annoying things ever to shoot a full charged shot from the ledge and have it stop 2 cm from your opponent bc it hit a mine and was neutralized. Speaking of mines, if you see one ledgehop back and super missile. it will take care of it usually.
-mines and grenades near the ledge are also annoying for other reasons: if you try to zair through the ledge/stage samus will be hit by them usually bc her arm (which extends when zairing) will enter the hitbox. neutralize it first with a missile, or wait it out if its a nade. in stages like delfino and pkstadium 1 if you are coming from underneath the stage to attack and get hit this could also mean a spike->death.
-if samus comes up from the ledge with snake can do two things that are pretty devasting. 1. if he has a grenade he can drop it and escape back or shield, causing samus to hit it, take damage, and end up back on the ledge again. or 2. he can shield and grab her. samus has limited options out of his dthrow that he can take advantage of. also if he is near enough to the ledge he also has a cg with his dthrow.
-Snakes a lot of the time will jump and nair as she comes up, it is a four hit combo that ***** damage on her.
-finally, if samus is being extra ledge campy and snake is at a distance he can cook a nade and have it blow up right past the ledge. if you are vulnerable this means stage spike to death.
So the main point is. DONT UNDERESTIMATE his ledgeguarding potential. play smart, and most importantly play patiently. Samus can gain some damage here, but you have to play smart and use a variety of approaches/stalls. if you do samus can have an advantage here.

Damage
Even though snake is a bulky character don't underestimate how fast he can react and build damage. a single nair or utilt or grab/pummel, other seemingly small "combo" can build damage as fast if not faster than samuses combos. its pretty harsh when you just pull off something fancy like uair to fair to upb to see the damage gap just disappear bc snake pull off a simple nair combo or something else.

Avoid playing snake close range. his grab game is better and he can build damage much too quickly. try to keep spacing.


*What stages to ban and CP(give reasons why)
Don't pick battlefield! I know we all love this stage, but the fact is that snake will have an equal if not better time here :( his c4s are effective on the platforms and he can punish people on the platforms well with utilts and nades. tempting but try to pick somewhere where samus has a better advantage.

My favorite stages for her are usually Final Destination and Delfino Plaza as counters. Pokemon stadium 1 is ok sometimes too bc it allows her a lot of places to tech and some pretty neat stage tricks. however, while i love up b to ffuair in the mountain part its not smart when snake can nikita or jump above you and drop a c4 in there. the windmill is good though for getting off chargeshots in between as well, and samus can roll through it.
Delfino is very good bc samus does excellent on the ledges, she can take advantage of the water part (with the pillars rising from the water) to spike him, and she can also be tricky and go offstage just a bit in the walkoff parts to mask a charge shot at snake or grab him when he is close by for an instant stock (very punishable though). Final Destination is my favorite though just bc it makes gameplay horizontal, gives you space, and minimizes his platform explosives game. samus can space easy here, the ledges are nice (not bf status but still) and there is plenty of room offstage to work with.


*How does samus win or do well(go into detail on how we beat XYZ)


Off ledge
This is an aspect that i think you can take advantage of most relatively inexp snakes on. they don't realize how much samus kills snake offlevel so they underestimate it. however against higher exp snakes, they will use the cypher to completely avoid offstage battles if they can and land on and within the stage. be prepared for snakes to try to avoid her range. This makes the battle an onstage one, and snake will usually win here. however, it is still a weak point for him. be prepared to attack his cypher if its in your range and expect him to try to avoid you by going over you. spam him at long distances and especially if he has to bomb jump.

Spamming

This is another aspect that looks better than it is. Snakes with good exp will crawl to go under most spams, and shield when necessary, as well as mix up nades at samus to cause lapses in her timing. he can gain ground fast with his slide and dash. however, samus still has a good advantage here and it is best to take advantage of when you are able to. Even if you spam yourself off the ledge to keep spacing that's ok. snake really gets damage in this fight close range. also mixup grabs and fairs into your spams to catch him and give yourself space again.

Spacing
Even though i said it above spacing is key to this matchup. be careful and patient in your approaches, snake can rack damage at close range very fast. This makes samus looks like she is stalling and being evasive a lot of the time. however this is not the case. you have to take advantage of her advantages at long range and let yourself be pushed off the ledge. also try to force snake off the ledge. playing the middle of the map and closerange is where samus loses this matchup. don't be alarmed if time is running a lot. this is a defensive/slow match honestly and don't let he time sucker you into doing something risky that might end up giving snake a huge lead or ko.

*Overall, what do you feel? Any last bit of info that you might want to include should go in a section of its own or include it on your "how does samus win/do well"

:p I think that covers it lol so much!
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Enjoy your sticky.
 

KingChaos

Smash Journeyman
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Ohio
Log book entry # 5-Ness

Ratio: (55-45) Samus Favor

What to watch out for: Ness is a crazily acrobatic character he will use lots of his fast aerials to try and throw you off.The biggest pain is that fair. To counter his aerial happiness you can space your zairs quite nicely to hit him while he does it and keep him grounded using homing missiles. Lots of Ness' while you are air born send pk thunders up to hit you for more damage i find this very hard to avoid because of Samus' floatiness; I find the only way really is to mind game using bombs to confuse his pk thunder controlling then air dodge so good luck with this annoying tactic Ness has a beastly dair edge guard he doesn't have to directly connect it over your head for it to spike you. Use zair edge stalls and drop down up b stall tactics until you find a safe way up ; Its usually a bad idea to immediately do the drop down double jump on the stage for he may spike the crap out of you. He can absorb your charge shot only shoot when your sure it will connect or fire a homing missiles first. Ness loves his pk fire while you have low percents but its not a big problem for Samus usually she can easily DI and jump right out of it before the Ness can follow up. Also of course watch out for the grabs at higher percents use bombs at lot before you try to atk him so if he does grab you the bomb may save your life.

Stages to ban/CP: No.1 stage to ban against Ness is Delfino Plaza this is because he gets to kill you at 0% by spiking you into the water.Also just the overall terrain is favorable to Ness. No.2 stage to ban is Pokemon Stadium 2 this is because there are parts of this stage that will make fighter Ness one of your most annoying experiences ever.Such as the sky part once you get into the air he can literally pk thunder all he wants and you can't punish him or dodge the pk thunders; the other part that is very annoying is the part with the conveyor belts he can keep control of the center stage very easily using his pk abilities and you can take lots of damage just trying to get back on the stage.Best to do on this part is just ledge camp with projectiles and counter his stage camping. CP stage: Use Frigate and try to keep Ness recovering from the side with no ledge for gimps or punishing his recovery with charge shots as he tries to recovery also Ness may screw it up anyways from the stage flipping if your lucky enough.

How Samus wins: Watch out for all the Ness tactics I explained that a good Ness would use.Furthermore lots of people think samus can't do much at close range whenever Ness makes a spacing mistake by trying to aerial you too close screw atk becomes a great defensive tactic. When trying to shoot a charge shot fire a missle before hand if he does expect the charge shot he will try to absorb and get hit by the homing you can then shoot him easily if your quick enough to see his animations and punish.Use of your aerials in anticipation of Ness' aerials work well of you wanna be more offensive in this match unless his fair becomes to prominent. Remember to use bombs as he tries to grab you for the KO.
 

Crystanium

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Ratio: (55-45) Samus Favor
I believe Xyro is going to disagree with you there. Fight better Ness players like ViceGrip, Earthbound360, or Shaky.

To counter his aerial happiness you can space your zairs quite nicely to hit him while he does it and keep him grounded using homing missiles.
I've brawled with some Ness mains who haven't had a hard time getting through z-air. Samus' attacks are so horizontal.

Lots of Ness' while you are air born send pk thunders up to hit you for more damage i find this very hard to avoid because of Samus' floatiness; I find the only way really is to mind game using bombs to confuse his pk thunder controlling then air dodge so good luck with this annoying tactic Ness has a beastly dair edge guard he doesn't have to directly connect it over your head for it to spike you.
The best way to avoid this is to keep your second jump, so when Ness uses PK Thunder, you can use that second jump to move away, and you can use your air-dodge to avoid the rest of it.

Stages to ban/CP:

Brinstar should be banned. It is in Ness' favor. He can use his u-air to KO early, PK Fire to make a pillar against the Zebetites. What is more, the place isn't large, so b-air or b-throw can KO Samus early. You need to fight better Ness players.
 

Xyro77

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I believe Xyro is going to disagree with you there. Fight better Ness players like ViceGrip, Earthbound360, or Shaky.



I've brawled with some Ness mains who haven't had a hard time getting through z-air. Samus' attacks are so horizontal.



The best way to avoid this is to keep your second jump, so when Ness uses PK Thunder, you can use that second jump to move away, and you can use your air-dodge to avoid the rest of it.

Stages to ban/CP:

Brinstar should be banned. It is in Ness' favor. He can use his u-air to KO early, PK Fire to make a pillar against the Zebetites. What is more, the place isn't large, so b-air or b-throw can KO Samus early. You need to fight better Ness players.
im not done making my article for these 4 characters but ill tell you right now i think ness is 60-40.

ill explain in detail soon.

dryn, why arnt you making article like every one else. we value your opinion
 

Crystanium

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dryn, why arnt you making article like every one else. we value your opinion
I'll try to write something up on Ness, since I have a lot more experience against him than I do other characters. My brother mains Ness, so he has learned ways around my Homing Missiles and z-air. Still, I beat him more than he does me, kind of. I won three times, and he beat me twice today, two-stocking me the third match with a nice PK Jibaku. I'll edit this post when I write up the information in the format you prefer so that I won't be making an extra post. I'll also see if ViceGrip will be up for a few friendlies.
 

Rohins

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Rohins
LOG BOOK ENTRY #2= MARTH!!!!!
3/1/09


Chances of winning:
60-40 Marth's favor.

How does Samus win/do well:
Try to stay grounded.
Zair sloppy aerial approaches.
Use smash missile to weaken shield, use dtilt to shield stab them.
Up angled ftilt out of shield vs high fairs, nairs.
You can get a free shieldgrab with marth finishes the sideB combo.
Use your tether to regain invulnerability for low % gimps.

What should Samus watch out for:
Never approach from above.
Avoid being on platforms.
Marth's upB out of shield has invulnerability frames, can be used in the middle of you moves (like if you fair his shield).
Don't get stage spiked by his upB.

What stages should Samus counter pick/Ban:
Lylatt and PS1. Both have ledges that mess up Marth's upB. They sometimes will kill him for you if they poorly space their upB, other times it can just mess it up so you can hit them / edge guard better.
Ban yoshi's. Since the middle of the level dips low it's very easy for marth to run under your zair. Plus the walls / edges remove some of your edge tricks.
 

tha_carter

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May 26, 2008
Messages
737
Someone should get jasona to write something about pit. lol, id be interested to hear his opinion/tips.

Good point rohins. The only thing i dont agree with is staying grounded. This should be the most agressive samus should get offstage than in any other match up. But while both are on the stage, staying grounded (instead of jumping around like maniacs like we all do) is good advice.

Good character selection, xyro.:)
 

Hive

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it'd be kwl to hear pit too ^^ i heard he's a very difficult matchup for samus, but there's not many pit mains over here lol.
Dryn, you have to write about ness, i know you've got that matchup front to back lol (tudor too)! ^^
 

Cherry64

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I Agree with Rohins on the marth match-up. once he's off the ledghe jsut z air him away. his recovery is awesome for height but not great for distance so zair him away and edge gaurd him. that I find is the easier way of killign him. as for getting to that point. well now that's tricky if he stays on your *** like most marths will do ( unless they utterly Phail as Marth) then good luck buddy. I awlays try a nuetral aerial then space with zair and missle wall and doer all over again. or shield Up+b, and SH toDair
 

tha_carter

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LOG BOOK ENTRY #3= SNAKE!!!!!

Chances of winning:
In a high level, equally skilled matchup this would be a 40:60 in favor of snake.

How does Samus win/do well:

The main reason for it leaning in snakes favor is his vertical weight. It almost completely takes away D-tilt as a kill option. Use it, and abuse it in this matchup as a means to rack up damage. It is very abuseable because of snakes lack of mobility. It just outranges snakes Utilt and first hit of Ftilt.

BE VERY AGGRESSIVE OFFSTAGE. If snake is offstage, so should you. The opportunity to land a Dair has to be abused. It is samus' REAL hope of winning this matchup. In high level play it is VERY hard to land one, but id suggest trying to bait any of his aerials and punishing their laggy cooldown. Of course if you ever see him withing double jump distance, and on the cypher, you should dair, bair charge shot OR even a fresh Nair. They will all knock him out his up b.

Zair ALL aerial approaches and his nades. A well placed zair will explode his nades. Do NOT let him cook them. Also use and abuse super missiles. Snakes HORRIBLE first and second jump prevent him from quickly closing the gap on samus. Even if he shields the missile, it has a good amount of pushback, so he'll take more time shielding than he'd like to. AND it would weaken his shield, so by the time he gets close, you can POKE threw his shield with a Uair or Fair. And dont forget about Samus' Usmash. Snake in low percentages is a complete victim of this move, and will often eat 20% +.

What should Samus watch out for:
TILTS! Theres no reason to spend alot of the match within the tilts range. They eat threw most of your projectiles and theyre generally faster than even your jab.

Nair/Dair. It is very easy to catch samus trying to line up a dair, and instead snake gets her with a Nair/Dair and upwards of 25%. Learn to SDI out! If you manage to do so, you can punish its laggy cooldown.

Camping above or below Samus. Horizontally Samus can outcamp snake. If he is above or below her, she CANNOT. Dont even try. Get horizontal or approach asap.

Jab> grab wrecks samus. And near the edge that could mean you body hanging off the edge and him being able to chain lots of Dthrows. As seen at 2:05 of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irhFP2G4Mns . If you are offstage and get grabbed, UP B! He should never link more than one Dthrow off stage.

What stages should Samus counter pick/Ban:

Pick a stage with HIGH a high vertical and/or thin horizontal. This will take advantage of the fact you cant kill vertically, and he can. And it will give you the chance to get quicker kills by the sides of the blastzone. Also, dont shy away from moving stages, or stages that force a player to jump/ be offstage. Increased opportunities to land a Dair is alway a good thing. Delfino is good place to take snake. And Rainbow cruise (if youre familiar with it) can be very good.

Ban coneria (if legal) and lylat. Coneria snake on average will kill you at 80, and as early as 70%. Horizontally OR vertically. Lylat is VERY hard to keep track of the mines and grenades. And the moving platform lets snake run under missiles, and zairs on occassions. Also, it can mess up your up B.
 

xXTACXx

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I just want to say that i think THA Carter nailed snake. I made the mistake of taking a snake to rainbow cruise, this was back when i wasnt to familiar with the matchup and i thought it through quickly in my head. I fiqured easy spikes and gimps but he was more familiar with the stage then me and i couldnt seem to get him below me and traps where everywhere. I believe i got 2 stocked. Make sure you know the stage good.
 

Hive

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hmmm idk.. i think he underestimates snake's abilities when they have good knowledge of the samus matchup... :/
but that's just my opinion. overall anyways, its a good review ^^ and actually for 90% of snakes you meet in tourneys i would agree, samus has 60-40 advantage.
however at the highest levels of feasible play when snake has very good knowledge of the matchup i think it becomes his advantage.

to be more specific, i find that snakes with better exp-
-completely avoid provoking offledge game by going around your range with the cypher. when this happens his onstage kos in a 3 stock match give him a 150% advantage when utilized.
-trying to zair them after they pull out a grenade usually ends up in him shielding if he expects it, which just ends up dropping the nade and cooking it. he can them throw it before samus can really do anything again. shield and it gives him an easy approach, and try to go for a zair again and it will usually hit you before you can pull it off. (samus is vulnerable in between spams)
-being too aggressive in the matchup hurts samus more than helps her especially close range, snake, if he's smart will rack damage by his jab combo, utilt, sh nair if he can, or dtrhow which forces you into predictable movements.
-he can if he's really familiar utilize his crawl and side dodges (plus shielding of course) and other things to get past spams rather quickly turning it into a close range battle where he has an advantage or at least is even (which brings us back to ko percents). samus' spam patterns become slightly more predictable the more your used to her.
-good snakes will counter (or semicounter) her ledge game. you'd be surprised how well a simple shield dropped grenade and retreat can do to a samus coming up with a ledgehop or trying to zair under the ledge. (plus the many other things he can do here)
-will not try to short hop air dodge through the zair, fall into the zair to grab combo as much, not airdodge through your screw attack combos, try to recover directly to the ledge, or ledgeguard samus from and extreme distance etc... like i see so many snakes try to do in matchup vids. (i'm not referencing ally btw, please don't take it that way, i actually wrote my original analysis days before those vids were even posted)
-snakes with legitimate samus matchup exp easily take the advantage. Erow i think is one of the best examples of someone with a very decent understanding of the matchup. and others who should be good, aren't imo. its like fighting a diddy, player skill matters to an extent but there is a point to where matchup skill is even more necessary and samus has a high surprise factor, bc she forces gameplay into weird areas like long distance/approach, and offledge and ledge games.
 

Hive

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oh i see ^^, sorry lol. well now i look like an idiot lol ^^

i'd still say its more like 70-30 his favor most likely, but either way ^^
 

Sosuke

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Toon Link's are discussing Samus stage counterpicks and bans!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209912

It'll only take like 2-3 minutes. Just post what you think is a good/ bad stage for Samus (against Toon Link) and why.
It can be like one sentence or something. Just put some amount of an explanation please. ^_^




Posting in the correct place this time.
Thanks Xyro.
 

KingChaos

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Log Book Entry #4 Pit's favor

Ratio: 55-45 Pit (Highly depends on match up experience and play styles)

How Samus wins or does well:

DO NOT FIRE CHARGE SHOTS unless you are far enough away to block it if its deflected or you are absolutely sure it will hit.Use lots of homing missiles to see if the pit is good with his deflectors if they use it often you know not to depend on your charge shot much.A little tip that goes with any match up for you guys is don't just fire straight ahead pivot charge shot is a lot more accurate I guess people just don't know Samus can do that. Also once your started you can combo pit well use dairs to up airs,dairs to up b, and whatever other sexi combos your samus can do; pit doesn't DI very well out of these Jasona should knows this >.>. I have been able to spike pit often as he hangs from the ledge lots drop down and try to like fair back on if you notice the pit likes to ledge hang don't hesitate to spike should work good. When he tries to up b his way back onto the stage and goes out and away from you shoot a homing missile or charge shot if you have the aim zairs are also good.Air dodge to zair through his arrows is a very very great thing to do make sure you remember that when getting pelted by arrows.Dash atk up b combos very nicely on a a wide range of percents becuase of pits lack of DI so take advantage of that combo.


What to watch out for:


Definitely watch out for his reflectors and bair a lot will try to bait you using a little jump mind game as do a lot of multiple jump characters do just space back and wait for him to land. Oh and pits love to spot dodge so killing him can sometimes be very annoying as they will be running away being very evasive a lot at high percents. Just don't try to force your KO's and you should be fine.

Stages to ban/CP:

BF can be a nice stage at least for me maybe other samus' need more space. BF allows nice combo ability on pit and safer up b usage its just a great stage in general for samus. I say ban Lylat against him just that stage is favorable to him because he can go under it to avoid you and he won't have to worry about being ledge gayed as samus can be there.Also he can arrow loop there more than bf because of where the platforms are imo. Delfino is a good cp if you wanna spike the crap out of him in the water you can do it over and over for really high damage if it doesn't kill him. Also a lot of pits try to be slick with going under the stage with up airs you can spike him if timed right when he does this.If i can think of any others I'll add to this.

Extra random info:

In my experience this is a very dependable match up on who is playing. This is a very lenient match up compared to most of samus' others. The way i've learned to play pits usually allows me to win just fine.I know some others struggle and I hope this review will help you to play them better.I'm sure that as long as you practice this match up it will become cake Jasona shouldn't have much of a problem vs other pits if that is any proof to this match up being very dependable on experience.
 

Rhyme

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**Edited at Xyro's request because I'm apparently his *****. <3

Awesome job with the discussion so far. I feel kinda awkward posting my opinions here considering how inactive I've been on these boards. There's some reasonable matchup experience going for me but nothing that assures me that I could be near as comprehensive about any of these matchups. However, I want to try and contribute something. I may post a more comprehensive review when it comes to Wario, TL or Lucario. =/

A few things that I'd like to add though:

Snake: ((EDIT: I must have been dreaming or on crack when I wrote this review. Fixed the bull****, but added some more opinions after my experiences against Snake this weekend.))
Chances of winning?: 40(Sam)-60(Sna)

How does Samus do well?: Most Snakes are still in the mindset of saving Utilt as a kill move, so you can usually get away with spacing SHFair on their shield. SHNair can be used if Snake gets right on top of you, but it will quickly become predictable. A dropped bomb will stop most Snakes in their tracks, though some of them will try to roll or otherwise approach around it and give you a chance to punish them. Edgehopped aerials will be punished if you land next to a Snake so be mindfull of that. Also, leave Ftilt angled down as an open option when Snake is off the stage. If he messes up his second jump sweetspot then hitting him with Ftilt will get him spiked, which is a quick end to his stock. If you're playing on a stage without platforms near the edge then Dsmash (as an edgeguard) makes a great option.

What should Samus watch out for?: Most of the time I find that a Snake falling towards the stage will A)FFBair or B)airdodge. Shield->Dtilt/Ftilt works for the first (or Uair if you can get your toes into his shoulders) and Dsmash works on the second. (Not sure if Usmash beats out his Usmash) The basic idea is to force him back into the air, because getting him airborn will give you another fifty percent chance at punishing. Some Snakes will pull grenades when the first two options don't work, but then all you have to do is wait them out and grab.

Stages to pick/ban?: Anything with a high ceiling. Unfortunately Samus will be resorting mainly to horizontal KOs in this matchup, so no need to give Snake any more of an advantage. Also, it helps to have a stage that allows for you to do all of your edge tricks, so don't pick something like Lylat if you have a tendency to get stuck underneath the stage.

Pit:
Chances of winning?: 50-50

How does Samus do well?: Pit will sneak quick aerials in on Samus if you try to fight from above him or below him, but Samus will usually win in a horizontal fight. You want to fight just within range of tipper Zair, because then your homing missile and Zair will both hit, you'll outrange his kill moves but he'll still worry about your Dtilt, and he won't be able to roll behind you. Also, uncharged B is far superior to charged B in this matchup. Uncharged can be easily avoided or attacked through if Pit reflects it. But usually he will either shield, which opens up opprotunity for shield-pressure and helps you establish your spacing, or he'll get hit by it allowing a quick aerial or running attack as a setup for Samus' many damage builders. In this matchup I hardly ever bother charging nB.

What to watch out for?: Pits will usually go for edge, but the bomb can stop that. Don't get greedy trying to chase Pit down with your Zair/Dair if he's upBing. Just wait for your next chance to KO him. Also, be mindfull that Pit has about five seconds of movement time with his upB.

What stages to pick/ban?: Stages without platforms seem to favor Samus. If you're good at outcamping Pit then a large stage would help you, but make sure you're confident in your ability to do so. If you can't do this then you'll wind up spending the whole match fighting by his terms. In general, stages with pass-through bottoms seem to be great for Pit, so I would stear clear of those unless you've got a solid plan.

Marth:
Chances of winning?: 35(Sam)-65(Mar)

How does Samus do well?: If he gets too close, SHNair and DI away from him (don't try to follow up). Make a point of anti-airing him with an Utilt early in the match because that will cause him to doubt himself while trying to land Fair later on in the match. Don't be afraid to abuse missiles or Dtilt in this matchup as Marth's SH is highly succeptible to them. Also, commit yourself to learning each Marth player's defensive patterns when above you. Marth has few options against a well-placed Uair, which means lots of damage for you if you play your cards right. I tend to prefer Uthrow in this matchup simply because most Marths would rather not be above me.

What to watch out for?:Marth may throw aerials aimed at tipping your shield and Not you. Don't be fooled. Commit yourself to learning his spacing, and only shield when he's not trying to attack your shield. You're going to miss valuable punishing opprotunity if you shield in the wrong situation. And remember that Marth's upB can punish even harder than yours. It has 4-5 invincibility frames before the attack comes out, and Marth will not be shy about using it. Marths will shield-drop->overB as a damage builder if you flub one of your approaches/retreats, so be mindful of his movement abilities on the ground. upBOoS works against this damage builder only if Marth messes up his spacing (though good Marths usually won't).

Stages to pick/ban?: In this matchup I usually prefer stages with a good selection of platforms. Platforms will force an aggressive Marth to leave the ground in order to persue you, and that gives you an opprotunity to attack. Platforms also create an obstacle for Marth (far more than for Samus) when it comes to 'trying to get grounded' after being hit in the air. Platforms can often net Samus with a free Uair/Fair, which then usually leads to extra damage. Obviously a good Marth will benefit from platforms, but don't be afraid to play on platform stages if you trust in your ability to use them. Marths need their edge to fight, so don't bother banning stages that most characters would use to 'take away your edge' (Frigate, RC, etc.). If anything, ban a stage that's too small for you to manuver on.

No real comment on Ness. I haven't played enough of them to have any sort of opinion other than "Don't get grabbed (at +110%)" and YY sucks. >.>
 

KingChaos

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Great input Rhyme sounds like you play more like I do. Those are definitely ways to help those match ups.
 

Rhyme

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Thanks. I liked your style as well, but it took a lot out of me to read. PLEASE, for the love of Samus and her sexy, use punctuation. ; )

Chances are that what I submit isn't going to be groundbreaking, but I reason that it might get some people thinking and that can be just as important. I've played some good players of those characters, but most of those players are noticably better than I am. -.-
 

Cherry64

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K your doing an awsome Job Rhyme so dont' even worry lol. we've all played people that were better than us. good info though the purple font made my eyes bleed a bit :p
 

Uffe

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Ness-

Chances of winning:
The Ness boards say it's 60:40 in Ness' favor. I disagree. I say it's either 55:45 in Ness' favor or 50:50.

How does Samus win/do well:
Zair and Missile spam. Because Ness lacks the ability to use projectile freely like Samus, it makes it a bit tough for Ness to get close. Charge Shots work, too if you launch Missiles first. But doing so makes her somewhat predictable, especially if you decide to prolonge the heavy Missile spam. Zair also has the same effect. A lot of Samus' attacks can string into one another making it somewhat difficult for Ness. Another thing is that Samus can rack up damage really quick, but it doesn't mean Ness can't turn the tables.

What should Samus watch out for:
When Samus is off the stage or up in the air, Ness can harrass her with his PK Thunder. Do to her floatiness, it kind of makes it tough for Samus to get away from PK Thunder. There is a possibility that Ness can just spike her when she's off the stage, but doing so is fairly risky as Samus can also spike Ness if he makes this attempt. Ness' fair out prioritizes most of Samus' physical attacks and nair is almost just as good. Ness' best game is in the air, but don't rely too much on Samus' Screw Attack. It'll either hit or it'll miss, which puts her in a bad position.

What stages should Samus counter pick/Ban:
Ban worthy-
Brinstar
Castle Siege (Possibly)
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship

Counterpick-
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
There could be more I have no idea about. I go to just about any stage.

I thought I'd go ahead and help out here since I have Samus exp and I main Ness. I hope this doesn't bother anybody.
 

Xyro77

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15 more days and im going to add new characters and keep the the characters we have not got an article on yet.
 

Hive

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dang, I wish I had more info, xyro... I don't trust my inputs on ness and pit though... :/

You know what makes it hard to do the matchup chart for samus though?
Samus is just as much about character exp as it is player exp. since she's such a surprise factor @.@
I mean you could be like at m2k's level but if you haven't played samus before and you're, say, a snake main you can get two stocked even though you are a superb player against anyone else. With a lot of characters I think, especially those who are hit hard by her surprise factor, we are going to see a wide range of opinions.
 

Cherry64

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I Secondary is Pit so we could just put Samus Mains up against my pit (he's nothing super but he's not bad) and I could give you pits side of it.
P.S. Anyone want to wi-fail it up? I can't sleep :(

EDIT: Balls, Hive went to bed :(

The Ness main was very unclear what is a good CP and what is a Ban worthy stage...
 

Uffe

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Sorry. Those are stages you should ban since Ness does good on them, though I prefer other stages over Delphino Plaza and Pirate Ship. I have no idea what stage is good for Samus other than Battlefield. For a counterpick, Samus might want to choose Yoshi's Island. I'm not sure how good she is on that stage, but it kind of messes up Ness since the Ghost Platforms screw our recovery sometimes and that annoying teetering platform above. Not to mention, ShyGuy's get in the way. Lylat Cruise also blows, but that stage is just about horrible for anybody. I wonder what Hive's opinion on the match up between Ness and Samus are.
 

Cherry64

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Sorry. Those are stages you should ban since Ness does good on them, though I prefer other stages over Delphino Plaza and Pirate Ship. I have no idea what stage is good for Samus other than Battlefield. For a counterpick, Samus might want to choose Yoshi's Island. I'm not sure how good she is on that stage, but it kind of messes up Ness since the Ghost Platforms screw our recovery sometimes and that annoying teetering platform above. Not to mention, ShyGuy's get in the way. Lylat Cruise also blows, but that stage is just about horrible for anybody. I wonder what Hive's opinion on the match up between Ness and Samus are.
Both are good for her, but I dislike Yoshi's island for teh floating platform too as it can screw our missiles every now and then.
Lylat is purdy for samus unless your facing a spammy *** Toon link, but other than that it's a great counter pick for most chars. I'd go here for a falco vs. samus (haven't tried this yet but I seem to think it'd be better than getting lazr'd to death on a flat stage)
 

Uffe

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For Lylat Cruise, it's the movement on the ship that screws our PK Fire. I try to stay on the side that's leaning upward when I'm there if I plan on using PK Fire. Samus' zair is easier to pull off if she's on the side where it's lower. Basically both characters want to be on a certain side of the ship if they want to use a certain attack. Of course it's not all that necessary for Samus as zair hits pretty good anyway. We can still pull off some of our methods as well, but the stage isn't really for Ness. That's not to say he can't win on that stage, though.

As for Yoshi's Island, I'm not very fond of the stage, but as I said before, the Ghost Platforms screw us badly. It's a blessing and a curse at the same time. We can survive from the help of that, but we can also die from it. Like Lylat Cruise, there is an angle in the middle of the stage that messes up our PK Fire if we're standing in it. Of course I already pointed out the other bad stuff for Ness on that stage.

I'd also like to say Frigate Orpheon is possibly a CP against Ness. The right side of the stage doesn't have an edge you can grab on in its first phase, so recovering can be tricky. Either way, I still go there despite the risks. You can try Halberd, too. I think that stage is good for both Ness and Samus. For Samus, she's able to kill earlier since the blast zones are close. Of course Ness can do the same, so that might not be a good choice. Still, it's worth mentioning.
 

Hive

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Hmm, I haven't actually had that much experience with the ness matchup lol ^^ just ishnoshine and noness... in maybe two tournament series lol ^^ We need more ness mains around! :( So I won't write an analysis lol ^^

But if I had to guess a counter though I'd say... well, battlefield. that level is basically always good for samus ^^ she can take advantage of the level better than most of the cast, except for probably snake and a few others.

And in a theoretical sense, yea, I'd have to say Lylat cruise is a good counter too ^^ because the tilts of the ship would mess up ness' recovery and the platforms and curve of the ship get in the way of his fire projectiles. On the flip side though samus' projectiles are also somewhat hindered by the stage, the tilting of the ship occassionally allows opponents to use the tilt to avoid her spams by ducking under them or making them less horizontal, and so they can approach better, and ness's up b is fairly unaffected by the stage tilts. Also, the ledges are kinda weird to use :p. Samus gets the advantage with the platforms though ^^
I've always been kinda iffy about lylat though, but I do think samus would have the best advantage here.
Having said that I still probably wouldn't cp it though lol, I know lame, hugh? lol ^^

Yoshi's island i wouldn't use simply because its samus' worst neutral. It may screw up ness, but it does pretty badly for samus as well. The weird platforms mess up her platform game, the shy guys take spam hits, and occassionally charge shots (which makes we want to cry T.T), the pop up platform off the ledges limits offledge game play and provides for more recovery options (which is bad for spikes), the stage is somewhat smaller and makes it harder to space, and the ledges have that weird curvey thing that basically limits her ledge game. I will say one thing I like though about the ledges, though, is that ledgehop to fair or uair will almost always chain to screwattack, since the knockback is so small lol ^^, and also you can use your dsmash as a ledge guard here because if you are at curvey part your leg actually creates a hitbox below the ledge. then again she will also have less options on the ledge as well :/. But basically overall ness and samus should team up and agree to be emo about this stage.

I'd say Frigat Orpheon but I'm pretty sure that level hates me lol. It always picks the time right before i screw attack to switch lol <.< then I'm screw attacking into the bottom of the stage ^^

anyways, uffe what do you think? ^^ I think you (and tudor but he's never here :p) would know better than me :)
 
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