A Plumber's Tools - The Mario Moveset Discussion! #8: Bair.

:mad: · Feb 27, 2009

Mario's New Moveset Discussion.

Intro;

Intro is under construction.

I took the liberty of finishing an old thread, now with new opinions, constant updates, and more moves than the previous thread.

This thread was created to get even more of an understanding on Mario's moveset, so feel free to give your input, any and all Marios can participate. Hopefully, this can answer any questions you still might have, even after reading a guide. If you'd like to add anything, feel free to tell me.

Move useage may vary due to who you're fighting.

A new move will be introduced weekly, unless we finish early.

Link to original moveset discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196826

Also post note, the below images are from HeroMystic's metagame analysis thread.

Move related threads you should check out.
Mario's Frame Data, courtesy of bobson.
HeroMystic's Guide to Cape and FLUDD.

Move #1: The Jab.

Description - Mario receives an enlarged fist, while using a series of physical punches.
Jab, jab, then kick. The last hit is where this move shines, it causes the actual knockback.

Yes, the jab. What better move to start us off than this? The standard combo for most characters, this is a fast move with many uses. If you don't already use it, try it more often. Jab is great for shield poking. There's more to this move than meets the eye, it has some unorthodox techniques that go along with it. Like for example, the infamous jab lock, of course. To set this up, you could always play on a stage with a wall, utilt, then use the first hit of the jab repeatedly. The opponent must've bounced on the ground for you to set this up, so keep that in mind. This works because of the fixed knockback, and Mario's less than average height.

Video 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDGADrC46_s

This can also be a good option when punishing. The best time for this is out of shield, after a laggy opponent's move, and after you set up a combo.

You can even jab cancel, for that extra damage. Jab once or twice, and perform another attack, usually a grab or SH aerial.

And don't forget about the obvious, a standard attack.

Stats; (Keep in mind this is a jab, these scores do not compare to stronger moves, like fsmash.)

Knockback - 3/5
It's not that good, but it's not that bad. This move would be broken if it was like Snake or Ike's.

Damage - 3.5/5
8 - 13% if every hit lands.

Speed - 4.5/5
In comparison to other jabs.

Range - 3/5
Honestly, it could be better.

Frame Data;

First jab
Comes out - 2
Ends - 15
Shield hitlag difference - 0 for all hits
Shield stun - 2

Second jab
Starts - 8
Hits - 9
End - 24
Shield hitlag difference - 0
Shield stun - 1

Third kick
Starts - 14
Hit - 20
End - 42
Shield hitlag difference - 0
Shield stun - 2

This is a top notch attack, use it more if you don't already.

What the other Mario mains think;

SkylerOcon

We don't use it enough. Working it into your game as the punishment move for an opponent getting to close is much better than what most use -- the down smash. The jab comes out faster, knocks enemies away to a point where we can follow up on the jab (down smash usually sends the enemy to far away) and if you miss the jab, you can't get punished because there really is no usage lag. It's a VERY safe option with very good reward -- at lower percents, this can usually lead to a down throw -- and that means we get Utilts, Double Uairs, gimp set-ups... you name it!

Judge Judy

Comes out in 2 frames, good jab cancel, and the last hit of the jab combo has a farily large hitbox; great poking move, if nothing else.

Move #2: Forward Tilt.

Description - Mario lunges forward, stretching his right leg at his opponent.

Ftilt is an average move. It has it's uses, but it falls short compared to a few other moves that could be better in a given situation. Regardless of that, it can end comboes very nicely. Use it every so often to shake up your playstyle. And when facing the characters that you probably couldn't gimp, you'd be best trying to refresh your other moves by spamming random ftilts. If you knocked a Meta Knight, Sonic, or Snake offstage, you probably did use up a lot of uair and bair comboes. You can refresh these moves to their full damage and knockback by using forward and down tilt when you're alone. Of all the uses for this move, this is my favorite.

No ftilt related videos.

I'm sure there's more this move is good for. Let me know what. And if you say spacing, I'll probably just laugh.

Stats;

Knockback - 2.5/5
It's nothing special, really.

Damage - 2/5
A fresh ftilt gets 7%+ per hit.

Speed - 4/5
Fairly fast, but not too quick.

Range - 2.5/5
It doesn't have a lot of range, when compared to other characters.

Frame Data;
Hit - 5
End - 24
Shield hitlag difference - 0
Shield stun - 3

What the other Marios think;

Judge Judy

Judge Judy said:
Ftilt is a good poking move; it has IASA frames and slightly more range than Dsmash, plus its priority is pretty good. Also, I'd like to note that angling it does make a difference in terms of range and where the hitbox is centered. The only thing I don't like about Ftilt is that you can easily get grabbed out of it unless you space it well.

A2ZOMG

A2ZOMG said:
You can mindgame people a little bit with F-tilt...the same way you can with Jab cause of the IASA frames.

If they get spotdodge happy, F-tilt is low lag enough to keep your options open so you can do other stuff as they come out of their dodge. F-tilting from behind someone's shield is a cool frame trap sometimes.

It's faster than most other F-tilts by a frame (well....unfortunately, not Snake or MK's), which is nice.

And in general people aren't usually expecting it, since it has more range than Mario's other ground moves, and is really fast. Angling it can surprise people in the air occasionally.

Otherwise...it's really situational due to not being exceptionally good at much, and the Jab and F-smash usually can do what the F-tilt can do but better. You should not forget this move though. It can be essential to contend with some characters out of shield due to its balance of range and speed. For example, against G&W. Your Jab usually lacks a tiny bit of range necessary to punish him out of shield. Your F-smash is a tad to slow to punish him on some stuff. The F-tilt can punish him in several of those situations where neither the Jab or F-smash reach him easily.

XeroXen

XeroXen said:
Ftilt is honestly, one of my favorite moves to use on the ground, or if I feel the need to use an out-of-air move. I've found SH aerials to be nice in conjunction with a buffered Ftilt, since your opponent really doesn't see it coming. (This only really works at low percents, but it's a good damage racker.) In fact, most opponents won't have time to react, because if they're still in the air after the attack (and you aim the Ftilt upwards) they'll usually be hit, OR they'll airdodge, presenting a good opprotunity for a Pivoted Fsmash or a U/Dsmash, whichever fits into what you want to do, and depending on how far they are away from you.

It's really good to mix up your game with Ftilt too, especially if you space your bairs, and they attempt to shield grab you (and miss), you could simply use a Ftilt instead of an Fsmash, and you haven't weakened your staple kill move!

Matador

Matador said:
It's a pretty average attack. Decent range, damage, and speed (in comparison to the rest of Mario's attacks, of course), basically used whenever you want your Dsmash and Fsmash fresh or Fsmash wouldn't be fast enough. Doesn't really have the knockback for gimp setups till KO percentages, so not much use there. The priority is also pretty much nonexistent, though it works wonders vs SideB/DownB spamming Sonics; it knocks them right out of the spin.

No real followups, just a great poker and damage racker. It's generally just a 2nd-best option to everything.

Commonly used after: SHFF Bair, SHNair, punisher on shield when grab wont reach, hitting an opponent on the ledge.

Move #3: Up Tilt.

Description - Mario does a quick spin with an enlarged fist.

A lot can be said about this fine move. It has some exceptionally disjointed hitboxes, and not only that, it has fantastic priority. Up tilt will either trade or stop most attacks, but a few can still beat up tilt. The most common use is an utilt lock at 0% that can get most characters above 20% before they can DI out, so use this if you want to rack up some quick damage. It can also be used to refresh kill move, but you're better off ftilting and down tilting. Up tilt has good range for Mario's size. It's by far Mario's best tilt, if you don't already use it, try it out.

Uptilt also has a unique property. It can set you up for a jab lock. At higher percents on stages like Luigi's Mansion and Skyworld, it'll bounce the other character to their back, which can set you up for a perfect jab lock.

Video 1 -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0v91-aV5YU

This is an example of a setup you can use with uptilt. Just do the exact same moves, but with Mario. No video with Mario doing this could be found.

Stats;

Knockback - 2/5
Not very powerful at lower percentages, and that's a good thing.

Damage - 2.5/5
It's fairly weak.

Speed - 4.5/5
Very fast move.

Range - 4/5
Pretty disjointed, nice range for Mario's size.

Frame Data
Hit - 5
End - 29
Shield hitlag difference - 0
Shield stun - 3

What the other Mario's think;

A2ZOMG said:
Mario's best damage dealer at low percents. It's an easy 25% on many characters (or even like 40% on fastfallers) by itself if you get it off at low percents (beware, at 0%, if your opponent is smart, they will shield the 2nd U-tilt, so instead of U-tilting there, do a D-throw to be safe).

U-tilt juggles set up perfectly into U-air juggles, and you can get off about 50% if you connect with a U-tilt juggle and two U-airs. The thing that is so great about U-tilt juggles is that even if you don't commit to just U-tilts, Mario is almost always able to mix up with something faster than his opponent can do other attacks.

U-tilt hits through BF platforms. U-tilt is good setup for jablocks on Luigi's Mansion. This move is the reason why characters need to be cautious of Mario at low percents, because one U-tilt at the right moment can carry them to 60% quickly.

Ray/Boshi on the Uptilt lock said:
If the opponet has a quick Nair or other means to get out the Utilt chain rather quickly. Just Utilt once or twice then let them fall in front of you, shield grab them to a Dthrow, and just go from there.

Can also pivot grab them after a Utilt, depending on the circumstance.

Move #4: Down smash.

Description - Mario does a "breakdancing" form of a roundhouse kick.

Downsmash, among Mario's best punishing moves. It comes out fast, has great knockback, and can kill at high percentages. The key to this is to bait your opponent to spotdodge, then attack. It can be used for most situations, and occasionally edgeguarding. This is one of his very best moves, if you don't already use it, you're crazy.

Stats;
Knockback - 4/5
It's pretty powerful in the front, but loses some of it's power around the back.

Damage - 3/5
It's fairly average, but still useful to end a combo.

Speed - 4.5/5
Very fast move.

Range - 3.5/5
It has pretty good range, but Mario's just not that tall.

Frame Data; (There's a lot to this move, so it'll just be copy and pasted.)
Hit: 5, 14
End: 37
Shield hitlag difference
-First hit: 0
-Second hit: 0
Shield stun
-First hit: 6
-Second hit: 5
Advantage
-First hit: -26
-Second hit: -18
Discharge: 3, 12

What the other Mario's think;

SkylerOcon said:
I guess you can use it to kill at high percents (and I'm not talking 120, I'm talking 140), but it's best use is as a GTFO move. Gets your opponent away from you and deals some pretty good damage. It's also just as fast as MK's down smash, I think, though it doesn't have the same kill power.

It's a pretty decent move. Though the jab is faster and all that, this is good for when you have the opening and for getting opponents off stage.

Ray/Boshi said:
It's good to use if you predict an opponet who rolls behind you. When Mario's sweeps the back of him, he'll get with him on the comearound.

I sometimes charge it slightly just to be creative. It's range is dcecent.

Dsmash is quick. Very good get off me type of punishing move. Compliments Jabs, and tilts nicely.

Matador said:
It's too good of a punisher. Mostly used OOS when grab won't reach. Excellent for gimp setups. The damage is nice and is fast enough to true combo into a few things. Its utilization is pretty straightforward however. It's not a (reliable) killer, just a damage dealer.

Sometimes I'll jab, then turn the Dsmash around and hit with the second hit to punish reflexive spotdodging.

A2ZOMG said:
If you Jab cancel perfectly, Jab Down-Smash I believe is a combo, but the timing is seems very strict and not easy to buffer. Usually Jab Down-Smash works better when you intercept an aerial opponent with a Jab. Or you have to count on your opponent messing up. You can also combo into Down-Smash with U-air juggles at low percents. D-air -> Down-Smash is also good. F-air -> D-smash is sometimes even a combo on fastfallers.

Anyhow, Down-Smash is essential to Mario's ground game. Frame 5, good damage, good knockback, good trajectory, not too laggy, acceptable range. Sometimes it ducks under certain attacks.

Basically it's like Metaknight's D-smash, except nobody complains about it being broken. You can pretty much use it in the same situations and get similar results. Near the edge, it sometimes gets KOs due to the trajectory. It gets people offstage 90% of the time otherwise. Good for punishing rolls sometimes.

I don't really consider Down-Smash a staple of Mario's game, but it still is essential to use as it's one of his best damage dealers regardless after you have exhausted Mario's low percent combos, and great for mixing things up after you have staled out U-air and B-air to death. This attack should definitely be considered when you're trying to save other moves for KOs.

Move #5: Upsmash.

Description - Mario tilts his head back, then wildy headbutts thin air.

This is one of Mario's best attacks. It has great range, amazing priority. I'll leave it at that.

Stats;
Knockback - 4/5
Very nice vertical killing ability.

Damage - 3.5/5
Above average.

Speed - 4/5
Yeah, it's pretty quick for a smash attack.

Range - 3/5
It covers anywhere an arm's length away.

Frame Data;
Hit - 9-13
End - 39

What the other Marios think;

SkylerOcon

SkylerOcon said:
To say it quickly, use this move as a defense against aerial approaches. This is its best use.

To give you a longer description, always take advantage of this moves range, priority, and power. It has decent kill potential (120%, I think?), very good priority, and the range is awesome. It has relatively low lag, but can still be punished. Abuse this move.

It's good out of Utilt chains. I've discovered that after hitting two or three times just letting the opponent fall and then up smashing works. It normally does more damage than a normall Utilt chain.

I think this move also goes through the tornado. Awesome.

Move #6: Forward Smash.

Description- Mario brings his hands back and... creates a firey explosion from his right hand.

Essentially, this is Mario's best kill move. Up-angled its the best. Of course, if you down-angle it it loses some knockback but in return you can also hit enemies somewhat below you (this allows you to hit people hanging on the ledge as well).

Decent damager as well, if you can land one at lower percents.

Stats;
Knockback - 5/5
Good kill move regularly. Very good kill move up-angled.

Damage - 4/5
Slightly above average for an Fsmash... decent damage racker if you're counting on the Usmash/Gimp for the KO and don't plan to kill with this

Speed - 3.5/5
Not slow, but not fast either.

Range - 4.5/5
Exellent range. Stutter stepping this move is a must.

Frame data;
Hit: 15
End: 47
Shield hitlag difference: 0
Shield stun: 5 (6 tipped)
Advantage: -27 (-26 tipped)
Discharge: 10

What the other Marios think;

A2ZOMG

A2ZOMG said:
F-smash gives Mario everything people say he lacks. Raw range and power.

At first glance, this attack doesn't look like it has very good range. However further inspection of this move shows that during the charge stance, Mario leans back a lot before attacking, and when you check the range from the point at which he leans back from, you'll discover you actually outdistance attacks like Marth's F-smash. Also notable is the stutterstep F-smash, which basically makes you start F-smash without the leanback and thus fully abuses the raw range you have on this attack.

This attack is Mario's ticket to killing someone that's in the 100% range (depending on stage position). What's great about this move compared to how it was in Melee is that the sourspot is significantly stronger in this game and KOs at exactly 10% higher than the sweetspot, which is fairly minor. Even if you don't kill with the sweetspot, this attack does so much damage that stale moves on this attack isn't a huge issue.

Basically if you know this attack is going to hit, by all means hit with it. You get maximum results from landing this attack.

Move #7: Nair.

Description: Mario performs a sex kick pose, has a lingering hitbox that gets weaker.

Nair is Mario's combo breaker. Not only does it have amazing priority, it's a great Out of Shield option. Can also set up a jab lock with the weaker hitbox.

Stats;
Knockback - 2.5/5
Decent at best. Not as terrible as it might seem.

Damage - 3/5
Fairly good for racking up damage, and can end an Uair chain if Fair will be dodged.

Speed - 5/5
Extremely fast.

Range - 2/5
Only creates a bubble around Mario's body, and he's not that big, either.

Frame Data;

Hit: 3-~28
End: 45
Shield hitlag difference
-Strong hit: 0
-Weak hit: 0
Shield stun
-Strong hit: 4
-Weak hit: 2
Landing lag: 10
Autocancels: ~34+
Advantage
-Strong hit: -38 to ~-34
(Again, not sure where strong switches to weak. Maybe 8?)
-Weak hit: ~-35 to ~-15
Advantage (landed)
-Strong hit: -6
-Weak hit: -8

What the other Marios think;

A2ZOMG said:
Just jump out and N-air. The horizontal knockback is very good for gimping. ESPECIALLY if you get them on their midair jump. You'll trade hits or beat out a lot of recovery moves with this attack too. Really good at hitting Marth (trades hits), Space animals (usually wins), and many other characters out of their recovery. You can even trade hits with Metaknight's Up-B, although doing that one is a bit less useful since you can't follow up easily after that.

The other thing I do a lot is just jumping repeatedly and N-airing whenever my opponent tries to do a getup from the ledge. If you do it right, you can limit your opponent to only being able to edgecamp or edgeroll to make it back up on stage. Just don't do it against a smart Metaknight or G&W.

SkylerOcon said:
Nair is a godly move. I have no clue why it took the majority of us so long to figure out how amazing it was. Mario has an above average airgame with just Uair, Bair, and Dair. Add in proper usage of the Nair and you have a **** airgame. It just stays out so long. It's good OoS, good out of Dthrow, good to punish attacks, good priority... nearly everything about it is good!

Abuse Nair. Make it your *****.

Move #8: Bair.

Description: Mario kicks back with both legs.

More to come!

:mad: · Feb 27, 2009

Updates;
2/26 - Added range as a stat.
2/27 - Added frame data; fixed grammatical errors.
2/28 - Introduced the "What other Marios think" concept.
3/2 - Added move #2; updated intro.
3/10 - Started dsmash after a short hiatus.

Judge Judy · Feb 27, 2009

Comes out in 2 frames, good jab cancel, and the last hit of the jab combo has a farily large hitbox; great poking move, if nothing else.

:mad: · Feb 27, 2009

Should I add the frame data, or is that really not important, at this point?

I'll add the poking bit.

bobson · Feb 27, 2009

Straked said:
Should I add the frame data, or is that really not important, at this point?

It serves as a decent gauge of how fast and punishable a move is compared to other moves.

Also, a blatant plug of my frame data thread.

Judge Judy · Feb 27, 2009

Straked said:
Should I add the frame data, or is that really not important, at this point?

I'll add the poking bit.

You should at least have the number of frames it takes for the hitbox to come out and if something seems wrong, we can always go back and fix it.

Edit: In addition to Bobson's data, you might want to also take a look at this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222360

:mad: · Feb 27, 2009

Alright, I'll add that as a reference link.
Thanks.

SkylerOcon · Feb 27, 2009

Ah. This one will be better than mine anyway, now that we have frame data and all that.

Maybe you should just import the discussions from the old thread into here? We can update them as we get around to them this time.

:mad: · Feb 27, 2009

SkylerOcon said:
Ah. This one will be better than mine anyway, now that we have frame data and all that.

Maybe you should just import the discussions from the old thread into here? We can update them as we get around to them this time.

I was considering doing that, but those are all in a quote. I think we can just have a fresh discussion on the moves, then I can use your thread for anything we miss. I'm basically just recreating your thread, adding color, pictures, and explanations in words.

So yeah, I'll go ahead and do that.

hippiedude92 · Feb 27, 2009

just wondering and probably inpatient atm to read the whole thing, but why did you make a new moveset discussion since we already finished the old one? o.0

:mad: · Feb 27, 2009

hippiedude92 said:
just wondering and probably inpatient atm to read the whole thing, but why did you make a new moveset discussion since we already finished the old one? o.0

Well, first of all, the old one never was finished.
This is a more in-depth guide, instead of just giving a list of pros and cons. And besides, the old one died, and no one can see it. This is just an improved version of the old one, now with frame data.

SkylerOcon · Mar 1, 2009

Alright, lets get down to business here:

First of all, you should increase the your speed rating of Mario's jab to 4 or 4.5. A frame 2 jab is something that most character's would die for! It's amazingly fast, which is a part of it that usually gets overlooked.

Other than that... all I really have to say about Mario's jab is this: We don't use it enough. Working it into your game as the punishment move for an opponent getting to close is much better than what most use -- the down smash. The jab comes out faster, knocks enemies away to a point where we can follow up on the jab (down smash usually sends the enemy to far away) and if you miss the jab, you can't get punished because there really is no usage lag. It's a VERY safe option with very good reward -- at lower percents, this can usually lead to a down throw -- and that means we get Utilts, Double Uairs, gimp set-ups... you name it!

I've been using this a lot more recently (along with Nair) and I can say that I've been preforming much better just because of these two attacks.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

Very helpful, Skyler. I knew my ratings were off by a bit.
I should actually bring knockback down a little as well.

Everything you said was true, nair's actually a good kill move if you can't manage to land an fsmash at high percentages. I'll add that entire summary in it's own section.

And speed is only so low because the first jab is the only one that's really quick, the other two are fairly fast, but you can DI out at higher percentages.

SkylerOcon · Mar 1, 2009

Straked said:
And speed is only so low because the first jab is the only one that's really quick, the other two are fairly fast, but you can DI out at higher percentages.

Well, I would still bring it up a bit -- at least to 4. At higher percents, you should probably be using the down smash to try and get opponents off-stage. Jabs are most useful at low to middle percentages. 0-70% is a good range, though if you can land a jab at anything higher than that you should go for it. Free damage is never bad.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

SkylerOcon said:
Well, I would still bring it up a bit -- at least to 4. At higher percents, you should probably be using the down smash to try and get opponents off-stage. Jabs are most useful at low to middle percentages. 0-70% is a good range, though if you can land a jab at anything higher than that you should go for it. Free damage is never bad.

I decided 4.5 because just having that first jab is good enough.
Mario's gifted with having every smash attack being useful, fsmash if my very favorite. Dsmash is perfect for setting up gimps.

And jabs are best for racking up damage, so you can save your smashes as the finishers. That's exactly how most characters work.

Updated the OP.

SkylerOcon · Mar 1, 2009

Also, I've seen videos of Boss doing the first jab on somebody shielding, beginning to walk away, and then Fsmashing them the moment they drop the shield. I've tried this a few times myself and it is usually greeted with success.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

SkylerOcon said:
Also, I've seen videos of Boss doing the first jab on somebody shielding, beginning to walk away, and then Fsmashing them the moment they drop the shield. I've tried this a few times myself and it is usually greeted with success.

Absolutely. Next time you get the chance, try to bair your opponent, land, then c-stick an fsmash. Most people don't expect this, and it usually works. But mostly at lower percents.

Because of fsmashes crazy range, and good power, it's easily one of Mario's best moves. Let's start fsmash immidiately after we finish tilts, and do smashes after that. Then specials. Then grabs. Then taunts. :lick:

And just for good measure, we'll do dtilt VERY last.

SkylerOcon · Mar 1, 2009

Straked said:
Absolutely. Next time you get the chance, try to bair your opponent, land, then c-stick an fsmash. Most people don't expect this, and it usually works. But mostly at lower percents.

I do this very often. I kill a lot using this, actually. Love it.

Because of fsmashes crazy range, and good power, it's easily one of Mario's best moves. Let's start fsmash immidiately after we finish tilts, and do smashes after that. Then specials. Then grabs. Then taunts.

I'd say that Mario's Usmash is better than the Fsmash, but we're discussing the jab right now, so we can worry about that later.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

Upsmash is better? I don't kill as often with it. Because it won't kill at 120%, and fsmash will, upsmash is my least used. I just love Mario's smashes, either way. They're all good.

And to keep on with the current topic, I'll add an ftilt summary tomorrow. For a tilt, I like it, but it's really not that good... it could be better, but it won't get as much praise from me. If we had an ftilt like Falco's, we'd be fine.

Or Snake.

SkylerOcon · Mar 1, 2009

Hm... I'd say keep the official discussion as jab for a little while longer, but sense you've brought it up, I'll give my two cents on the Ftilt.

It's a pretty useful move. If your opponent is too far to grab after a Uair combo you should Ftilt them. If they are to far away to jab, Ftilt. If you think you've used other moves to much, Ftilt. Not only does it trip when you angle it upwards (or at least, it does for me occasionally) it has decent range and does decent damage. It's a good GTFO move for when you're not in the air and the jab just isn't right for the situation.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

SkylerOcon said:
Hm... I'd say keep the official discussion as jab for a little while longer, but sense you've brought it up, I'll give my two cents on the Ftilt.

It's a pretty useful move. If your opponent is too far to grab after a Uair combo you should Ftilt them. If they are to far away to jab, Ftilt. If you think you've used other moves to much, Ftilt. Not only does it trip when you angle it upwards (or at least, it does for me occasionally) it has decent range and does decent damage. It's a good GTFO move for when you're not in the air and the jab just isn't right for the situation.

Well, keep in mind. There's fewer Marios here than, say, 2 months ago. I'll keep the discussion open awhile longer, but we already went over everything about jab, really. Any other uses?

We already mentioned jab cancelling, locks, damage. There's really not much else to it.
I'll go with my original idea and wait until Monday.

How's ftilt's priority?

SkylerOcon · Mar 1, 2009

Don't really know. I don't really test my luck priority-wise with any of Mario's moves unless it's Nair/SJP/Usmash. Those are easily his best moves priority wise (and all of them are really good priority wise). Other than those though... well, you should pretty much assume that your attack is going to be canceled/you're going to be hit.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

SkylerOcon said:
Don't really know. I don't really test my luck priority-wise with any of Mario's moves unless it's Nair/SJP/Usmash. Those are easily his best moves priority wise (and all of them are really good priority wise). Other than those though... well, you should pretty much assume that your attack is going to be canceled/you're going to be hit.

I still think it's worth looking into, I mean, we decided to add frame data. Why not go the extra mile?

It's not exactly a good move, though. Low knockback, mediocre damage. A 2/5 overall until I learn otherwise.

Matt07 · Mar 1, 2009

Jab followed after a N-air is pretty sweet.

:mad: · Mar 1, 2009

Matt07 said:
Jab followed after a N-air is pretty sweet.

Sounds like a cool combo, I usually just do dthrow to nair.

vato_break · Mar 2, 2009

jab isn't that good,i hardly use it imo random fairs are a better mindgame

:mad: · Mar 2, 2009

vato_break said:
jab isn't that good,i hardly use it imo random fairs are a better mindgame

Who needs mindgames when you have a good jab? Lol. Ftilt's next, but it won't last more than 3 days. I'll update now.

Judge Judy · Mar 2, 2009

In response to Matador remarks, Usmash is good; if you use Usmash as a defensive move and abuse its priority, it's actually pretty good. Also, Usmash goes through Zamus's plasma whip lol.

Mario_ 101 · Mar 2, 2009

i think vato was joking lol. or at least for his sake i hope he was...

Matt07 · Mar 2, 2009

I use jabs more often against against short range characters (such as Toon Link). Against characters with lots of range I find it's hard to find any uses for jab

.

hippiedude92 · Mar 2, 2009

Jab is honestly broken. It clanks with snake's ftilt. That's how good it is. Most ppl play my luigi and whenver i switch to mario, i love to jab cancel or jab roll behind them repeat. The many things about jab is all about mindgames srsly homie.

Punishment Divine · Mar 2, 2009

Jab after a bair is godly :D

:mad: · Mar 2, 2009

lolwut? When did Matador ever post here?

I'll post the next move right now.

Judge Judy · Mar 2, 2009

Straked said:
lolwut? When did Matador ever post here?

I'll post the next move right now.

Lol, you're right, I was thinking about some things Matador said in another thread after looking at Skyler's remarks.

:mad: · Mar 2, 2009

Judge Judy said:
Lol, you're right, I was thinking about some things Matador said in another thread after looking at Skyler's remarks.

Lol yeah, it was still a helpful post.
OP updated, what are your thoughts on ftilt?

Judge Judy · Mar 2, 2009

Ftilt is a good poking move; it has IASA frames and slightly more range than Dsmash, plus its priority is pretty good. Also, I'd like to note that angling it does make a difference in terms of range and where the hitbox is centered. The only thing I don't like about Ftilt is that you can easily get grabbed out of it unless you space it well.

:mad: · Mar 2, 2009

Judge Judy said:
Ftilt is a good poking move; it has IASA frames and slightly more range than Dsmash, plus its priority is pretty good. Also, I'd like to note that angling it does make a difference in terms of range and where the hitbox is centered. The only thing I don't like about Ftilt is that you can easily get grabbed out of it unless you space it well.

Thanks. I'm glad that post had little to do with spacing, because you could say the same thing about almost any move.

And that reminds me, what should I address you as?

-added to WToMT section-

hippiedude92 · Mar 2, 2009

Ftilt is a nice spacer actually. Nicely replacement for Fsmash in order to save kills pretty much.

Judge Judy · Mar 2, 2009

Straked said:
And that reminds me, what should I address you as?

Judge, JJ, Judge Judy, take your pick, doesn't really matter to me.

:mad: · Mar 2, 2009

I don't think anything needs to be mentioned about spacing, since that's pretty much the key to every character's aerials.

Judge works, actually. I watch your show. ;D

Only once for 11 minutes.

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