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Kinda Epic Explosive Duel #36 - Link

VietGeek

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Link


Ratio: 60:40 Toon Link

Synopsis:
The match-up is more extreme than one would think. While it is true that Link is combo bait and his recovery is 'beyond' subpar, he has tools that seem to have been created to directly try to counter TL's.

Link's spam is quicker and 'stronger,' sacrificing mobility and range. TL's spam is slower, but 'weaker,' with his boomerang having more flexibility, his bombs more range, and his arrows are just slow and go decently far charged or not.

But Link's spam can somewhat counter Toon Link's this way. His Gale Boomerang messes up spacing and generally forces TL to a bad position. The bombs counteract each other, and while we can shoot two arrows with SHDA as we're floatier, it matters not for Link and easily stand there and let his big Hylian Shield block it. While TL may theoretically win the spam war, it won't do much chip damage as usually Link will make it so that your spam will merely hit their spam.

Generally this forces someone to approach [typically Toon Link]. Because all the chip damage in the world will not win a match unless you run the timer out.

If Toon Link approaches, it's instantly his disadvantage [in that situation]. Link's front defense is strong. He has a huge Clawshot, outranging Hookshot, our safest poke move. His fsmash is strong and provides an extra front to his little fortress. His jab combo seems to be slightly slower although that could be Sakurai's animation mindgames. Approaching from above is risky as Link's Umsmash seems to have been created for the sole purpose of making it as hard as possible for TL to approach. Link's Usmash eats Toon Link's dair, but bombs can still get through. Toon Link's best option is to try to approach above or crossover to Link's back.

Link would probably never want to approach [as he virtually has no true approach]. His approach game is aided by his projectiles (bomb sliding for example), but he takes a risk of eating a lot of damage for TL's sword if he messes up [with his already lackluster approach]. His moves don't seem to be all that safe against shield, although I may be wrong. His nair and bair seem to be approach worthy, but overall it seems Link was made to be a tanking character. In this match-up particularly, tanking is probably a good idea unless you like eating somewhere near 40% damage.

So TL has to approach sooner or later. A character flaw of his is that he must commit to be offensive during kill percents. Even if TL somehow manages to spam better, when it comes killing time, he will have to commit to the offensive [with his unsafe & not-that-great kill moves], trudging through Link's tanking.

Given that much information, we would assume Link has a slight advantage as -

1. He controls the pace of the match [if he spams right]
2. He kills faster
3. Yeah he pretty much kills faster
4. Gale Boomerang isn't as bad as everyone thought initially

Compared to TL's -

1. Forced to approach more or less but has an easier time due to high mobility and near-identical projectiles.
2. Once TL finds a way in, Link will likely eat a lot of damage due to his weight class.

But when we add recoveries to the equation, we all know Toon link wins. If TL gets a dsmash in <20%, Link will fly off to a point where recovery is generally not possible unless he buffers a Zair to snap onto the ledge immediately. Still this puts him on the ledge which is a terrible place for Link. Not only that, but due to his recovery flaw, his ledge options are not exactly amazing either. He is extremely pressured when he's trying to make it back on stage. While DI does wonders in this game, it only gets you so far until TL can just shoot one of his projectiles, killing your momentum, and edgehogging for a stock. While Link can do the same to TL, TL naturally has more chances to get back onstage, and he is floaty. He's also in a perfect weight class to projectile plank if he wants to get back onstage that badly.

55:45 Toon Link at best, 60:40 probably at worst.
Too Long; Didn't Read -
In my experience (which isn't that extensive for this matchup, but still) Tink vs. Link is a battle of extremes. Both characters like to be set up in a particular way, and once someone gets off balance a lot of damage happens before things get under control again.

Toon link's shortness is annoying to Link, but can be dealt with. His midair vs midair game, however, is a royal pain in the backside, which is precisely what Link doesn't like having to handle. As long as Link is set up and grounded, though, Tink's approach is kind of meh, and Link can win the defensive spacing game thanks to his bigger size overall. Also, having a useful kill move is really handy.

I think the matchup is pretty even, but it's not going to look like that if you watch any individual stock; domination one way or the other is the rule of the day, even if the direction is inconsistent from one minute to the next.

 

TLMSheikant

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Eh? Id say 80:20 Tink just cuz the linkz are whiners. >_>

PS- i dont quite get it VG. This is a matchup discussion rite?
 

urdailywater

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It seems like a matchup, just without the pic of course.

I'd say it goes in TL's favor mainly because of speed, but it's kind of closer to a ditto than anything else I've ever done >.>

Link succeeds in a lot of places TL doesn't, mainly killing power though. Same thing with TL, except TL racks up damage easily and is just a bit faster.


Watch out for the first part of F-smash. That's the most deadly and is the only one that is really used.
Boomerang isn't much of a threat imo. I actually try to use that against the Link whenever I can (assuming he is going for a smash, not a grab).

Just try not to get hit by his sword or bombs. They hurt.


Irrelevance:
Also: I'm just gonna post my thoughts on this debate on which is the better Link.

I myself think that Toon Link is better, mainly because I played his game first and because the game was a bit more epic IMO.
I liked the Twilight Princess Link to, but it never really lasted me as long as WindWaker did. That's why I choose TL. It's not that I hate the Link boards or w/e.

IMO: Both sides of this fanboy debate need to stop trolling and getting trolled. It's just trolls trolling trolls. It's ******** and pointless. There are 2 Links. Get over it.
 

VietGeek

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Eh? Id say 80:20 Tink just cuz the linkz are whiners. >_>
Stooping to their level is not going to help. We all know this match up is more even than it seems if you take away the ******* fanboyism.

I posted a thread on the [dead] Link board. I may go to AiB later and go get the usual gang of Link users we all love to converse with.
 

TLMSheikant

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Ok now seriously this match is pretty even link has range in his sword, but we have more speed and more mobility. Kill power is about even but none of our kill moves are safe and link's kill faster and we are light, Link at least has fsmash and dsmash. Camping goes to tink hands down. We cant gimp link that easy as other characters but he cant either. His zair is better than ours so dont challenge it with urs. Eh, his dair kills very quickly. Link outranges us but cant outcamp us and hes pretty gimpable even if were not marth or metaknight. He kills us faster but his mobility cant match tink's and we outcamp him so yeah. 55:45 tink.
 

Sosuke

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Viet, why are you trying to confuse us?

You're known as a Marth main.
Yet you say you main TL.
But you have a Wolf icon next to your name.
wtf??
 
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Lol, Viet.. Un-ignorant isn't a word, and ignorance implies a lack of knowledge. THUS; irony in your mouth, sir... or sirette?

This match up has two seperate ratios. There's the on paper ratio; which I'd put at around 65:35 your favour because Sakurai is a ******* who hates Link. you're faster, have a better recovery, equal priority, and a better camp game. You can gimp us, and our slightly better range means squat in the face of your speed. We'll probably CP a small stage to try antake advantage of your lightness.

Then there's the applies ratio, which is 90:10 our favour because Link mains would rather lose to their grandma than TL and any loss to a TL results in much shunning and berating amongst other Links.

And yes, I do advise you to get the actual Link mains attention on AiB, lol. Much as you just looooovvve us, you need us for any real match up discussion.


Edit; @ TLM, whiners? We're not the ones demanding un-ignorant members of the opposing community debate as though they're all Gay mains or somethin'.. Also, the first reply in this thread is whining about our honest and unaplogetic dislike for TL. We are entitled to our opinion, and we probably aren't gonna 'whine' too much while we provide useful information between minor flaming.
 

Sosuke

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Link's boomerang is the biggest problem when fighting him imo. Its like, unless you avoid it, your goign to end up in a really bad position. Your spam gets messed up too. Defiantly something to avoid.

Link can actually kill. >_>

Its much better to try and kill Link off the sides rather then the top. Link is really heavy and with good DI, can live to really high percents. So Fair/Fsmash/ Nair (lol, Nair for killing) should be used to kill him.

And blah blah blah he has a bad recovery gimp him blah. Links usually try to recover high to avoid this, so Nair them while they're falling if you have the chance.

idk what else to say. Play better then the other guy. @_@

we probably aren't gonna 'whine' too much while we provide useful information between minor flaming.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214634
 

Asdioh

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character board rivalries don exits

If Link had a better recovery, I'd put this in his slight advantage.

He doesn't, so I say 55:45 Toon Link. Yarly. This is more fun than a Toon Link ditto, and pretty fair. If you get Link offstage, he's pretty easy to gimp. In the air, Toon Link generally wins, but not always because Link's aerials have decent speed and range. On the ground, Link wins, hands down. Projectiles...Toon Link wins, but it's not too bad for Link in this matchup. And Link's Zair is not only longer, but more spammable since he's a fastfaller (right?)

That's my opinion. I once played against a fellow Kirby main on the allisbrawl ladder, except he chose to go Link on the ladder. To humor him, since Kirby + wifi is a bad matchup for Link, I went Toon Link, and lost 2-1. >_>

Don't underestimate him :p
 

Hyro

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LOL I didn't know there was actually a rivalry between our boards AWESOME

But I still ****in love Links. I play KirinBlaze all the time so I do have an opinion on this matchup.

To a person just randomly using Link, the matchup would be 70-30. To a really good Link (not just good, REALLY good) the matchup IMO would be 60-40 us. Whoever thinks Toon Link can outcamp Link...it's not as easy as it sounds. When Link starts to spam, especially with the gale boomerang, it's SO hard to approach. Because when you do, your going to get comboed in some crazy jab cancel. CQCwise, Toon Link is gonna get raaaaped. I think it's all about zair combos for toon link. But Link has a zair too.... :(

The only reason I think it's tipped in our favor is simply his recovery. One dsmash and Link is dead...if not, he's still terribly easy to gimp, especially the ones who like to hookshot the edge since if we hog it, their dead. So 60-40.
 
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Shin told me he got an infraction for that post and I wonder why. I mean what in his post wasnt true? He also only cursed once and that was against sakurai and who dont curse sakurai for everything.
Shin also posted some stuff about the match up so its fully on topic and legit I really cant see why he got an infraction. Also we are not whining as much as anyone other, we have accepted that Link is bad and switching the words "gay" and "toon link" is just a joke that happened to stay, nothing more go watch our boards on AiB(not intended as commercial, if you see it as such feel free to edit it). Then tell me how many whiners you see, I cant think of one that hasnt accepted link to be a bad character.

Oh as for the matchup all obvious stuff is already said and I dont know that much about TLink other than that they spam and gives you damage like hell and then when you are at high percentages nothing happens anymore, there never is a KO, and suddenly you land a diar and voila its even again.

as for ratios I dont know how you make your numbers but this is not as hard as falco for link(someone stated this matchup to be 80:20 in tlinks favour), its more like meeting an Ike actually IMO(which is neither easy or very hard)

Oh I have to say that these are my opinions and that I appologize to anyone that happens to get offended by this post.
 
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Link's boomerang is the biggest problem when fighting him imo. Its like, unless you avoid it, your goign to end up in a really bad position. Your spam gets messed up too. Defiantly something to avoid.

Link can actually kill. >_>

Its much better to try and kill Link off the sides rather then the top. Link is really heavy and with good DI, can live to really high percents. So Fair/Fsmash/ Nair (lol, Nair for killing) should be used to kill him.

And blah blah blah he has a bad recovery gimp him blah. Links usually try to recover high to avoid this, so Nair them while they're falling if you have the chance.

idk what else to say. Play better then the other guy. @_@



http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214634
Lol @ that link, the one guy who bumped the thread to flame got FLAMED by Links. We're not so bad after all.

Your points are generally correct, but you left out that TL's zair edgaurd can ruin Link's life if we recover low (as we are sometimes forced to do with our bad recovery.)

One thing to be aware of is most Links have uncanny DI, and I'm not saying that to brag. Links like Arkive, Deva, and Legan do not die at low%'s unless you work hard to gimp them. But even pro Liks get gimped =/ So abuse it if you want to win.
 

Hyro

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Lol @ that link, the one guy who bumped the thread to flame got FLAMED by Links. We're not so bad after all.

Your points are generally correct, but you left out that TL's zair edgaurd can ruin Link's life if we recover low (as we are sometimes forced to do with our bad recovery.)

One thing to be aware of is most Links have uncanny DI, and I'm not saying that to brag. Links like Arkive, Deva, and Legan do not die at low%'s unless you work hard to gimp them. But even pro Liks get gimped =/ So abuse it if you want to win.
LOL that's cuz the noobs don't use zair to gimp! But I do :mad::mad:

EDIT: WOW that pic of toon link in pink holding a rainbow flag made me lol SO hard our whole board got owned lmfao
 

Asdioh

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EDIT: WOW that pic of toon link in pink holding a rainbow flag made me lol SO hard our whole board got owned lmfao
I know, right?

One thing to be aware of is most Links have uncanny DI, and I'm not saying that to brag. Links like Arkive, Deva, and Legan do not die at low%'s unless you work hard to gimp them. But even pro Liks get gimped =/ So abuse it if you want to win.
Hmm, I'll be seeing Legan at a tourney in a week, maybe I can get some matches of my Toon Link vs him recorded...the only problem is that my Toon Link is pretty awful >_<

...I think QUIVO will be there, and his Toon Link is pretty owntastic, so maybe I can get them to play each other.

And then I'll play Legan with Kirby, because that is totally relevant to this matchup discussion.
 

VietGeek

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Lol, Viet.. Un-ignorant isn't a word, and ignorance implies a lack of knowledge. THUS; irony in your mouth, sir... or sirette?
I know it's not a word, do you really think I would put a hyphen between un and ignorant were it an actual word? That's like im-possible? Modern English don exits? <_<

The rest of your post is just purposely set out to be hateful and almost worthless to the discussion at hand.





Now that we're done trolling each other, let's see...

I don't know the details exactly, but the drama leading to you guys moving to AiB didn't cause anyone to be banned, yes? So I'm assuming theoretically everyone can discuss with us over here?
 

VietGeek

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It's Mindgames.
Unfortunately one part of that mindgame is gone.

I no longer play Marth. He is retired. He's better off as my joke character because when I play him, that's what I am. A joke. =P

I guess I'll invite the AiB members? Actually...

Sasuke...you know them better than I do.

Go fetch them for me. Thank you.
 
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Lol, Vietgeek, maybe the reason my post was so spite ridden was because your 'welcome' posted on our (old) boards was a little.. Poorly worded.

Edit; the other TL's seem to be amused, Chip loves me, he infracted me, but I still knwo he loves me. D: Why don't *you* like us.

Also, you're right, Sasuke should do it.


Sasuke, go to our boards and post something witty to get our attention.
 

VietGeek

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The TL boards aren't exactly very uptight about things. It's Chip's job to look it, but he's probably pretty chill too. So yeah, we're amused. I also saved that TL picture for future reference.

I am sorry if my post was poorly worded. English is not my native language. American is.

So yeah SasukeBowserLarvitar, you gonna go? ^_^
 

VietGeek

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Where did the five topics on their board get moved to?
this
site
is
toon
link
Trash Can board. It's not viewable by normal members unless "you're weird."

Sasuke better get me my legit Link mains by tomorrow. <___<
 

sasook

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Lol, reading this topic through, gay TL mains don't seem that bad. So.....the people behind the character are cool by me, but their character....I don't want to be rude.

Anyways, it's been stated these 2 are similar. One time a guy asked on our boards "which Link should I play?" The usual biased responses were answered, but then someone said this:

"Depends on what you wanna play like - you spam with TL or you space with Link. Pick your poison."

That actually says a lot about this matchup. That, and we've got a ton of more ATs than you guys do.

Offstage, you guys win obviously. Bair WoP, dair spike, nair gimp....yeah. Uair goes through our dair too. And if you're gonna hit us with an fsmash, be sure to time it so the second hit is the only hit. If you try to hit us with both, it's easy to get out of. Sorry I can't really say much else.
 

sasook

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I dunno how TL spacing works with his fsmash, I'm just pointing out that little tidbit.

BTW, just curious, do you guys bombslide at all? Or it's not really useful for him?
 

Sosuke

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Every character can get our of the second hit of Fsmash iron.
It actually depends more on which frame of the Fsmash they get hit by (and slope position/ character position).
You just have to be perceive and ****, but in the heat of battle thats sorta hard.
Like sasook said, setting up for the second hit of Fsmash is safer (but more difficult).


Don't know what bombsliding is. We might have a different name for it (or we jsut can't do it >_>).
 

iRjOn

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Yea Sasuke I know every character basically could just thought he ment like Peach or something.

But bomb sliding...
We just ehh na not really its not that usefull for us I think.
 

Sosuke

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No.
We JC throw instead. @_@
 
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@ VietGeek. I meant you were being insulting.

@ Sasuke, lol. Yeah Link is an etremely technical character <_< If you ever play against Sasook he's the slipperiest ******* ever. Slide's everywhere he wants to go.

This brings me to a point. Despite TL's floatiness and Link's slowness, we are probably still more mobile due to our fast fall speed and smooth boots. (not the AT, we just slide alot.) So we will probably (barely) win the spacing war, though you force us to approach and are too fast for that to do us much good.. Once we're in your face it's still your advantage. But IF by some twist of fate you're fightign a Link with Deva-like spacing he can be a pain in the *** with that extra half inch of sword length.
 

VietGeek

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@ VietGeek. I meant you were being insulting.

@ Sasuke, lol. Yeah Link is an etremely technical character <_< If you ever play against Sasook he's the slipperiest ******* ever. Slide's everywhere he wants to go.

This brings me to a point. Despite TL's floatiness and Link's slowness, we are probably still more mobile due to our fast fall speed and smooth boots. (not the AT, we just slide alot.) So we will probably (barely) win the spacing war, though you force us to approach and are too fast for that to do us much good.. Once we're in your face it's still your advantage. But IF by some twist of fate you're fightign a Link with Deva-like spacing he can be a pain in the *** with that extra half inch of sword length.
Alright, since my 'humor' isn't showing, I'll be direct. I am sorry for insulting you guys. Mmkay?

The match-up is more extreme than one would think. While it is true that Link is combo bait and his recovery is 'beyond' subpar, he has tools that seem to have been created to directly try to counter TL's.

Link's spam is quicker and 'stronger,' sacrificing mobility and range. TL's spam is slower, but 'weaker,' with his boomerang having more flexibility, his bombs more range, and his arrows are just slow and go decently far charged or not.

But Link's spam can somewhat counter Toon Link's this way. His Gale Boomerang messes up spacing and generally forces TL to a bad position. The bombs counteract each other, and while we can shoot two arrows with SHDA as we're floatier, it matters not for Link and easily stand there and let his big Hylian Shield block it. While TL may theoretically win the spam war, it won't do much chip damage as usually Link will make it so that your spam will merely hit their spam.

Generally this forces someone to approach [typically Toon Link]. Because all the chip damage in the world will not win a match unless you run the timer out.

If Toon Link approaches, it's instantly his disadvantage [in that situation]. Link's front defense is strong. He has a huge Clawshot, outranging Hookshot, our safest poke move. His fsmash is strong and provides an extra front to his little fortress. His jab combo seems to be slightly slower although that could be Sakurai's animation mindgames. Approaching from above is risky as Link's Umsmash seems to have been created for the sole purpose of making it as hard as possible for TL to approach. Link's Usmash eats Toon Link's dair, but bombs can still get through. Toon Link's best option is to try to approach above or crossover to Link's back.

Link would probably never want to approach [as he virtually has no true approach]. His approach game is aided by his projectiles (bomb sliding for example), but he takes a risk of eating a lot of damage for TL's sword if he messes up [with his already lackluster approach]. His moves don't seem to be all that safe against shield, although I may be wrong. His nair and bair seem to be approach worthy, but overall it seems Link was made to be a tanking character. In this match-up particularly, tanking is probably a good idea unless you like eating somewhere near 40% damage.

So TL has to approach sooner or later. A character flaw of his is that he must commit to be offensive during kill percents. Even if TL somehow manages to spam better, when it comes killing time, he will have to commit to the offensive [with his unsafe & not-that-great kill moves], trudging through Link's tanking.

Given that much information, we would assume Link has a slight advantage as -

1. He controls the pace of the match [if he spams right]
2. He kills faster
3. Yeah he pretty much kills faster
4. Gale Boomerang isn't as bad as everyone thought initially

Compared to TL's -

1. Forced to approach more or less but has an easier time due to high mobility and near-identical projectiles.
2. Once TL finds a way in, Link will likely eat a lot of damage due to his weight class.

But when we add recoveries to the equation, we all know Toon link wins. If TL gets a dsmash in <20%, Link will fly off to a point where recovery is generally not possible unless he buffers a Zair to snap onto the ledge immediately. Still this puts him on the ledge which is a terrible place for Link. Not only that, but due to his recovery flaw, his ledge options are not exactly amazing either. He is extremely pressured when he's trying to make it back on stage. While DI does wonders in this game, it only gets you so far until TL can just shoot one of his projectiles, killing your momentum, and edgehogging for a stock. While Link can do the same to TL, TL naturally has more chances to get back onstage, and he is floaty. He's also in a perfect weight class to projectile plank if he wants to get back onstage that badly.

55:45 Toon Link at best, 60:40 probably at worst.
 
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