R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #15: Fox

JCaesar · Mar 4, 2009

Sudai asked me to take the reins this week. So we're doing...

Go!

Wolydarg · Mar 4, 2009

Quick question about the "Utilt lock": Which way do they have to DI to break out of it? I've never played a good fox who knew about it, in fact, only fox experience I have is playing Rookie's fox in a friendly a while back. He didn't know about the utilt lock either.

Anywho, I've never thought Fox could give ROB trouble, so someone will have to explain why Fox is a hard matchup for us less-informed ROBs =(

I mean, sure he can combo ROB well (who can't?), can't get camped by ROB, can deal a crapload of damage fast if you're not expecting it, and has the ******** running upsmash that kills you at 110%(? not sure) with no questions asked, but "that ain't falco!" [/wombocombo] I guess I just have to play a really creative Fox.

Fox boards have this matchup 6:4 in their favor.

Zhamy · Mar 4, 2009

Quick question about the "Utilt lock": Which way do they have to DI to break out of it? I've never played a good fox who knew about it, in fact, only fox experience I have is playing Rookie's fox in a friendly a while back. He didn't know about the utilt lock either.

If you DI backwards, you eat nair/bair. If you DI forward, you eat a grab. If you DI up, Usmash says hi. Your best bet is Forward and Up, since that puts you out of grab range, and can airdodge the Usmash if it comes. Or Backward and up, air dodging the Bair/Nair followup.

Anywho, I've never thought Fox could give ROB trouble, so someone will have to explain why Fox is a hard matchup for us less-informed ROBs =(

Fox does well against ROB because he limits ROB's stage control. Little Spinny Stupid Top (I hate that thing) can't be used to limit movement very effectively at all.

Fair is HORRIBLY difficult for ROB to DI out of, so a fresh one will deal close to 23% if ROB gets caught in the air. Nair outprioritizes a stupid number of ROB's defensive moves, and space properly, Fox is difficult for ROB to hit out of baited shorthops with bair/nair/dair.

More or less, Fox makes it very difficult for ROB to play a campy, defensive game, which is usually where ROB's comfort zone lies. Being heavy means happy combos for Fox, and forcing ROB to approach makes it that much easier for Fox.

It's at least even, and most likely in Fox's favor up to 60:40.

toasty · Mar 4, 2009

ugh stupid Fox...

LOL @ Wolydarg listing some of the principle difficulties we have against Fox and then asking what they are [I mean...who else in the game has a move that quick/easy to execute from a great distance that can kill ROB at such a low damage?]

I don't have much Fox experience at ALL but every time it's ROB reaching a high damage relatively quickly which means I'm extremely limited in approach options because of Fox's amazing punishing ability [namely running usmash] and because you can't effectively camp Fox.

positive side note: Fox is one of the easiest characters to dair out of their recovery =D

also, some Fox players love to use double-jump-fair to increase the height of their double jump considerably and they sometimes get careless with it when recovering to the edge, assuming that the fair will protect them. dtilt works wonders against that

Fox players will approach from the air with dairs a good amount of the time and when they see that you're expecting it and will then shieldgrab or whatever, they'll bait that by shine-stalling above you and you'll leave yourself open because you tried punishing a dair that never happened. utilt/usmash are both good in this case.

Talps · Mar 4, 2009

A lot of this matchup will be decided by very close spacing. It's a *huge* difference if he SHDA's to our front side or back side. If he messes up and does it to our front (and we get a shield up in time), we can shield grab him. If he properly does it behind us, whether we get our shield up or not, he can go into a grab, jabs, or his up tilt.

Luckily we can't be shine-owned as easily to underneath the stage (ike gets destroyed by this for example) but it's possible. His firefox is incredibly long, making the gimp harder than on falco. We have reach in important ways: ftilt outranges anything fox has on the ground, for example. I think the trick to this matchup is very close and particular spacing. On the ground we want to be near him (distance doesn't help us that much) but no closer than ftilt range. In the air... well, we want to be extremely careful in the air. Spacing is incredibly important in this matchup.

edit: Oh yeah, and the top eats up his lasers. Toss that on the ground inbetween you and force him to come to you.

Wolydarg · Mar 4, 2009

toasty said:
LOL @ Wolydarg listing some of the principle difficulties we have against Fox and then asking what they are [I mean...who else in the game has a move that quick/easy to execute from a great distance that can kill ROB at such a low damage?]

I just don't think those strengths outweigh his weaknesses (being extremely light and having a weak recovery) And if Fox ever stales that usmash ROB lives even longer.

Talps said:
His firefox is incredibly long, making the gimp harder than on falco.

edit: Oh yeah, and the top eats up his lasers. Toss that on the ground inbetween you and force him to come to you.

Thing with fox's up b is that he can curve it, so he can recover in places where falco/wolf cannot, it's not necessarily longer, just more versatile.

And fox's lasers go over the gyro, I think a mad old video of Chozen's ROB showed this.

Zhamy · Mar 4, 2009

And fox's lasers go over the gyro, I think a mad old video of Chozen's ROB showed this.

They don't if you standing laser. ROFL WHO USES STANDING LAZER.

It's a *huge* difference if he SHDA's to our front side or back side. If he messes up and does it to our front (and we get a shield up in time), we can shield grab him. If he properly does it behind us, whether we get our shield up or not, he can go into a grab, jabs, or his up tilt.

I wouldn't worry about Dair as much as Nair. Dair is so September '08. Properly spaced Nair is almost unpunishable unless you predict Fox's next action correctly, although ROB's Dtilt is usually your best bet in that case.

I just don't think those strengths outweigh his weaknesses (being extremely light and having a weak recovery) And if Fox ever stales that usmash ROB lives even longer.

I wouldn't say Fox's recovery is weak. Worse than ROB's? Sure. But he's definitely not as easy a gimp as Falco or Wolf, and he has shine stalling, Illusion Cancelling, Fair-copter, Curved firefox, etc. etc. to help him along. As far as being light go, Fox is 7th lightest, but you also have to consider rate of damage and race to kill percents. Just saying "Oh he dies early" isn't enough. Consider how quickly ROB will deal damage to Fox compared to Fox dealing damage to ROB. On average, ROB will reach death percents first (not by a huge margin), and if Fox doesn't kill with Usmash (as in, it's staled), Dsmash or Bair or Fair will finish ROB off.

On the ground we want to be near him (distance doesn't help us that much) but no closer than ftilt range. In the air... well, we want to be extremely careful in the air. Spacing is incredibly important in this matchup.

SH Nair reaches just as far as Ftilt, if not a little bit more. In the air, make sure not to get faked out by a shine stall or DJ Fair or something silly, because ROB's aerials lag quite a bit if you miss.

If you see the Fox is trying to do something silly, Nair that.

Mr.E · Mar 4, 2009

Fox doesn't really force ROB to approach, his Blaster isn't good enough to do that any more. And, well, they don't stun or anything annoying either, so approaching through them is world's easier anyway.

Fox's approaches? Who cares if he does NAir or DAir? The solution is the same. Move out of the way! Take a step back, his piss-poor lateral mobility in the air can't adjust to it and then you just smack him when he lands. Don't even give him the opportunity to mindgame you with that Shine stalling crap; uptilted FTilt or FSmash should take care of short hop approaches.

*shrug* Fox is an easier version of Falco. If for some reason you still have amazing trouble against him, Pikachu or ZSS are basically instant-win CP characters. That's as far as my discussion of this match-up goes.

Talps · Mar 4, 2009

Thing with fox's up b is that he can curve it, so he can recover in places where falco/wolf cannot, it's not necessarily longer, just more versatile.

His firefox is much longer than falco's, especially vertically. The curve doesn't help either, yeah.

Zhamy · Mar 4, 2009

Fox doesn't really force ROB to approach, his Blaster isn't good enough to do that any more. And, well, they don't stun or anything annoying either, so approaching through them is world's easier anyway.

Fox wins if ROB wants to play camping. I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Fox's approaches? Who cares if he does NAir or DAir? The solution is the same. Move out of the way!

You're going off some pretty terrible assumptions. Fox can SHAD into a grab, he can empty short hop to bait, he can empty short hop, shine, DJ into whatever. Fox's approaches are not nearly as linear as you make them out to be. Yes, the solution is to not get hit. No, it's not that easy at all.

uptilted FTilt or FSmash should take care of short hop approaches.

lolwut.

*shrug* Fox is an easier version of Falco.

Completely wrong. They're different characters, with very different styles. Try to treat Fox like you're playing Falco with ROB and you'll get *****.

If for some reason you still have amazing trouble against him, Pikachu or ZSS are basically instant-win CP characters. That's as far as my discussion of this match-up goes.

Except we're talking about Fox v. ROB?

Vorguen · Mar 5, 2009

Fox is my all-time most hated character to fight. >.<

I can't stand his combos on heavy characters.

Mr.E · Mar 5, 2009

Well if we're going to play quote wars...

Zhamy said:
Fox wins if ROB wants to play camping. I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Fox can't camp like Falco can. You can shoot projectiles back at him without getting stuffed by laser stun on startup half the time and it deals less damage to boot. Furthermore, Fox's lasers fizzle out at a relatively short distance, so you can actually just outrange him on larger stages like FD, which is a nightmare to fight Falco on. Fox can just turtle up in his reflector, making it impossible to actually camp him, but he's going to lose if he's just trading projectiles with ROB. To that extent, both players should somewhat seek to approach each other.

You're going off some pretty terrible assumptions. Fox can SHAD into a grab, he can empty short hop to bait, he can empty short hop, shine, DJ into whatever. Fox's approaches are not nearly as linear as you make them out to be. Yes, the solution is to not get hit. No, it's not that easy at all.

lolwut.

The fact is his incredible falling speed, poor lateral mobility, and mediocre range make him one of the most predictable characters in the game when it comes to aerial approaches. The only unique thing Fox can apply is Shine stalling and the entire point of taking a step or two back is to avoid being sucked in by those mindgames; his aerial mobility is otherwise so poor that he can't do anything about it except land and try again.

By the time he can even short hop and land close enough to punish you for doing something wrong, he's already getting hit by FTilt. Shine stalling is used when he's above you or to throw off ledgeguarding, not with short hop approaches, and without a stall-and-fall he's not even going to drop from his DJ fast enough to punish a whiffed ground attack. All he really can do is SHAD and punish, if you expected a not-SHAD and whiffed an attack through his Air Dodge. This doesn't include spacing SH/retreating FAirs against Fox approaching.

ROB can adequately defend himself against Wario's air game, a character with equally bad range but with the best aerial mobility in the game. Falco gets eaten by ROB in the air, even though his NAir has similar priority to Fox's FAir and his DAir is more successful against ROB's UAir. (Falco can pop ROB in the face with the blaster and USmash him but that's beside the point; Fox can't do that.) What suggests Fox can have any real success against ROB playing an aerial game?

Completely wrong. They're different characters, with very different styles. Try to treat Fox like you're playing Falco with ROB and you'll get *****.

I'm not saying they play the same, though it's hard to deny they don't play largely so, being clones and sharing mostly the same moveset. :/ (And there's not such a massive difference in speed/power here, ala Falcon/Ganon.) Naming them would be a waste of time but the similarities are certainly there.

However, most of the differences favor Falco, the biggest one being that only he can camp ROB. I mean, ROB can beat Falco up pretty good in a straight melee but Falco is so good at running away and camping that it's basically an even match-up, though heavily stage-dependent. Fox fares just as poorly but his camping game is limited at best, realistically non-existent. Saying Fox is just Falco-lite is the quick-n'-easy way of saying he's just not as good against ROB (or in general, really).

Except we're talking about Fox v. ROB?

Of course, but it's still worth mentioning. MK is a bad match-up for ROB. However, the discussion means more there because nobody really does that well against MK anyway; learning the match-up as ROB might just be the easiest way of learning to deal with him. Even if Fox was a bad match-up for ROB (which I would deny), he has such heinous CPs that you should never really worry about playing against him, which is why I wonder why we're even discussing him so soon.

It's like playing Dedede against Bowser or Marth against Ness, the match-up is so lopsided that virtually nobody even plays the character to begin with. Even if they do, you either force them to another character entirely or have a free win on counterpick.

JCaesar · Mar 5, 2009

Just a few things to add:

Fox is definitely easier to gimp than Falco. It's not about the up-Bs. So what if Fox's up-B goes farther? If either one is below the stage and forced to up-B, they should not make it back against ROB, period. Fox is easier to gimp because Falco's side-B is super-fast and hard to hit. Fox can shinestall, but ROB can hover around and wait for him to side-B, and still bair him. It's much easier to time than Falco's. Fox is also fairly easy to harass offstage as long as you don't fall into his 2nd jump->fair.

Fox is also reeeeeally light and dies to a fresh nair at like 110% (I know, ROB killing at 110, wtf?)

That said, Fox can still outcamp ROB if he's smart. He can short hop, fire a few lasers, wait for ROB to shoot something, powershield or reflect, and repeat. He can't just blindly spam, and if he's not blocking everything we will outdamage him, but he can force ROB to approach if he wants to. ROB can't just shield/avoid the lasers, it's impossible unless you're planking. Not to mention Fox's lasers unstale his moves really fast and his usmash isn't the only dangerous KO move he has.

Mr.E said:
The fact is his incredible falling speed, poor lateral mobility, and mediocre range make him one of the most predictable characters in the game when it comes to aerial approaches. The only unique thing Fox can apply is Shine stalling and the entire point of taking a step or two back is to avoid being sucked in by those mindgames; his aerial mobility is otherwise so poor that he can't do anything about it except land and try again.

Mr. E I think you're forgetting one simple thing: Fox is fast like a freak, and we play a sluggish robot. It's not as easy as you make it sound to just avoid and zone everything Fox does.

You're right that Fox has several nigh-unwinnable matchups, but at some point you will have to face a Fox in tourney with ROB (either for a double-blind first game or because you don't want to use Pikachu against their secondary), so it is worth discussing. And not everyone wants to resort to using a gay auto-win counterpick.

Stages: Obviously stay away from low-ceiling stages like Halberd where you'll be dying to the usmash at ~80%. Platforms can help prevent full-jumped aerial approaches and help with combos. Fox's recovery is also one of the easiest to take advantage of and gimp, so Frigate or any stage with a permeable floor is good.

I'd put this matchup at 45:55 in Fox's favor, if not 40:60.

Vorguen · Mar 5, 2009

Not to mention Fox can combo ROB to hell and back. U-tilts are extremely gay, and if we do get caught in one of his N-airs (which are hard to DI out of) or D-air -> tilts/smashes combo that's like a million percent. Only then do I remind you his U-smash is ridiculously fast and powerful and kills early.

Fox is not easy, and you won't always have Pikachu to counterpick.

Mr.E · Mar 5, 2009

Fox's USmash is stupid strong but the only other "dangerous" kill move he has is UAir kinda, which he should rarely land because he falls too quickly to bait and punish air dodging. I'm not even convinced his USmash is significantly more dangerous than Falco's, despite being stronger, since he can't just laser you in the face to guarantee it lands. The better you are at personally avoiding an early death to USmash (against either one), the worse off Fox looks.

He shouldn't be easier to gimp, though.

He has a nearly identical recovery but with more options and better distance. Even if you're an edgeguarding god, it's equal at worst. The weight difference is only about 5%, both Fox and Falco are quite light.

I hate to continue the comparison but... Falco is fast too. He can combo ROB pretty hard if he wants. He can't CG ROB but he can still DACUS or DAir out of the DThrow up until about 40%, leading to some good damage. His NAir is about as annoying as Fox's FAir and he generally has better range (still inferior to ROB but not as much so). Yet, Falco's best strategy is to camp, camp, camp. He loses more trying to play an up-close game. By all accounts, Fox shouldn't fare any better, except he can't mindlessly spam and run away like Falco can. It's only logical to conclude his match-up against ROB is weaker.

JCaesar · Mar 5, 2009

Fox's fsmash is about as strong as ours and will kill you if you're near the edge or your DI is bad. It also doesn't have a hard-to-hit-with sweetspot like Falco's. Fox's bair is also reasonably good at killing. But the point is, yeah, he can't set usmash up as well as Falco, but dair works if it lands, and otherwise if you make the slightest mistake at ~100%, you'll eat a hyphen-smash and die, and ROB hates dying that low.

There's a HUGE different between the gimpability of Fox's and Falco's illusions. Fox's has longer startup and moves slightly slower, and I'm pretty sure you can hit him out with a simple fair, whereas Falco's illusion will go right through a fair most of the time unless you're right at the end of it (but if you are, he'll just go for the ledge).

I do agree that Falco does better vs ROB than Fox does, but not really for the same reasons. It's really just the blaster. Falco is unapproachable, and Fox isn't.

Mr.E · Mar 5, 2009

Comparing Fox's FSmash to our own FSmash, which isn't exactly a powerhouse move, doesn't help your case.

Nevermind the utility ROB has with his, it's still a more suitable killing move because he lacks a kill move with power on par with Fox's USmash. What difference does this make anyway?

Fox's Illusion is still fast enough that you're not going to punish it on reaction, you're either going to plant a BAir in his face as he lines up with ROB or he's going to go over/under you. Fox can at least attempt to throw you off with Shine stalling. Though ROB can somewhat compensate by hovering in place with Up-B longer, it's certainly tougher than just jumping out and planting a BAir in front of the ledge when Falco drops to that level. Fox also gets enough distance on his Firefox that he can start it far enough out to avoid eating a run-off FAir and still overshoot the ledge in case you edgehog. (Then he eats a ledgehopped FAir, but at least he's back on-stage!)

And honestly, this sums up the match quite well I think:

I do agree that Falco does better vs ROB than Fox does, but not really for the same reasons. It's really just the blaster. Falco is unapproachable, and Fox isn't.

Though if Falco is 50/50-ish against ROB (or as poorly as 40/60, as some have said) and Fox doesn't do well, then the match-up ratio certainly couldn't be 40/60 in Fox's favor as well.

Being one who leans toward an even match-up with Falco already, I even say ROB-Fox is slightly to ROB's advantage. Man, I haven't played a good Wolf in forever, either...

TheTantalus · Mar 5, 2009

From what I've discovered about the matchup, and using Fox as a secondary, here is my input.

Fox likes to shield a lot. A lot like Snakes. Just run up and shield. So I run up and grab.

Some Foxes like to use the shine to stall in the air right after a hit. So I like to chase them so they don't do that and do something they aren't used to. uair does nicely.

Utilt beats the dair, but you can't mess up. If you miss, he'll get you, so don't be fooled.

Laser and gyros still work, just don't waste them to a good shine. I wouldn't spam them though, save them for off the ledge attacking opportunities.

Fox hates Bair. use it. a lot. Save nair for the kill.

A2ZOMG · Mar 6, 2009

ROB has a good shieldgrab and Fox fails quite a bit on shields. Fox has the advantage when?

I'll agree Fox doesn't do badly against ROB...since he's one of those rare characters that doesn't have trouble scoring a KO. But that's basically the only thing he's good at: landing random Smashes. If you go above him, and you're at like 110%, all he has to do is predict an air dodge, or shield a N-air and Up-smash out of shield, and you're as good as dead. In general, I find Fox will be trying to observe your dodge patterns when you're at a KO percent, or he's going to be shieldcamping in hopes you approach his shield with something unsafe.

I'd think that by intelligently spacing tilts, B-airs, grabs, and offstage N-airs (for KOs) that would give ROB the advantage alone, as he clearly has an answer to all of Fox's approaches, and can do some safe stuff on Fox's shield that Fox really doesn't have a good answer to. Fox doesn't have any safe way of setting up his combos, especially not against someone who has a really good shieldgrab. He can't really get a Smash in that easily on ROB when ROB is on the ground due to ROB having a LOT of safe attacks with huge range.

HAT · Mar 6, 2009

jcaesar loses to neo's fox in tournament

result?

fox beats rob.

ROFL

JCaesar · Mar 6, 2009

I lost to G-Reg's and NL's also recently.

I ***** Plank's though :laugh:

Mr.E · Mar 6, 2009

That's because Fox sucks at planking and dealing with planking. :rolleyes:

Silly Plank.

NeverKnowsBest · Mar 6, 2009

Mr.E said:
Well if we're going to play quote wars...

Fox can't camp like Falco can. You can shoot projectiles back at him without getting stuffed by laser stun on startup half the time and it deals less damage to boot. Furthermore, Fox's lasers fizzle out at a relatively short distance, so you can actually just outrange him on larger stages like FD, which is a nightmare to fight Falco on. Fox can just turtle up in his reflector, making it impossible to actually camp him, but he's going to lose if he's just trading projectiles with ROB. To that extent, both players should somewhat seek to approach each other.

When Fox camps he isn't trying to put damage on the opponent, he is just simply trying to make the opponent come to him due to his lack luster ability to approach his opponent. Fox has an easier time camping due to his speed because he is able to shoot and protect himself using his reflector after than Fox can pull out laser or gyros.

Mr.E said:
The fact is his incredible falling speed, poor lateral mobility, and mediocre range make him one of the most predictable characters in the game when it comes to aerial approaches. The only unique thing Fox can apply is Shine stalling and the entire point of taking a step or two back is to avoid being sucked in by those mindgames; his aerial mobility is otherwise so poor that he can't do anything about it except land and try again.

This Fox's aerial mobility poor? Fox's rising forward air is SERIOUSLY unappreciated. A Fox can jump shine stall and out of the shine stall do a rising fair in ANY direction to avoid from being predicted. It is a little ***** if you don't know the Fox is going to do that.

His range = lasers =D His SHL/DL can close and open distance extremely effectively.

Mr.E said:
By the time he can even short hop and land close enough to punish you for doing something wrong, he's already getting hit by FTilt. Shine stalling is used when he's above you or to throw off ledgeguarding, not with short hop approaches, and without a stall-and-fall he's not even going to drop from his DJ fast enough to punish a whiffed ground attack. All he really can do is SHAD and punish, if you expected a not-SHAD and whiffed an attack through his Air Dodge. This doesn't include spacing SH/retreating FAirs against Fox approaching.

I am having an extremely hard time making sense of this section. Could use nouns instead of pronouns =D I am getting confused on who the he is referring to Fox or ROB.

Mr.E said:
ROB can adequately defend himself against Wario's air game, a character with equally bad range but with the best aerial mobility in the game. Falco gets eaten by ROB in the air, even though his NAir has similar priority to Fox's FAir and his DAir is more successful against ROB's UAir. (Falco can pop ROB in the face with the blaster and USmash him but that's beside the point; Fox can't do that.) What suggests Fox can have any real success against ROB playing an aerial game?

If this is the case the Fox will then stick to a strong ground game. Working lasers, and DCSG into aerials would be one of the best bets if ROB aerial game is superior to Fox's.

Mr.E said:
I'm not saying they play the same, though it's hard to deny they don't play largely so, being clones and sharing mostly the same moveset. :/ (And there's not such a massive difference in speed/power here, ala Falcon/Ganon.) Naming them would be a waste of time but the similarities are certainly there.

They aren't clones....the only moves they share are the up air, down air, and their grabs ALL of which have different properties that make them EXTREMELY DIFFERENT from one another.

Mr.E said:
However, most of the differences favor Falco, the biggest one being that only he can camp ROB. I mean, ROB can beat Falco up pretty good in a straight melee but Falco is so good at running away and camping that it's basically an even match-up, though heavily stage-dependent. Fox fares just as poorly but his camping game is limited at best, realistically non-existent. Saying Fox is just Falco-lite is the quick-n'-easy way of saying he's just not as good against ROB (or in general, really).

Wow thanks for the back hand to all Fox mains =D

I will state again that Fox's camp game is just so the opponent will approach.

BTW: JCaesar is like super cool. Just saying.

Mr.E · Mar 8, 2009

I return with personal experience (and actual matchup discussion afterward)! Just to summarize what I learned: Fox totally can't camp effectively because it takes 5-6 Blaster shots just to cancel out one of ROB's lasers landing. He can't shoot at you and hide in Shine at the same time. :/ The other thing I learned is that MOVING OUT OF THE WAY is, indeed, quite effective at negating... at least anything that starts with him using DAir. It basically removes UTilt juggles from the equation and makes him work a little harder to land a killer USmash.

Sorry, that's all I really got out of it.

NeverKnowsBest:

NeverKnowsBest said:
When Fox camps he isn't trying to put damage on the opponent, he is just simply trying to make the opponent come to him due to his lack luster ability to approach his opponent. Fox has an easier time camping due to his speed because he is able to shoot and protect himself using his reflector after than Fox can pull out laser or gyros.

Thank goodness that Fox is hardly unapproachable. He can't play the "brick wall run-away" game Falco can and, for all the damage Fox's Blaster may cause, it doesn't actually stuff anybody's approach with no hitstun. That said, neither Fox nor ROB can truly camp each other. If ROB tries to camp, he's just going to get his crap reflected back at him all day. If Fox tries to camp, he's going to eat more damage while FIARIN HIS LAZ0R than he's dealing in return. Any "camping" done should be limited, nobody's standing on the other side of the stage spamming projectiles. (Unlike versus Ike, for example, where that's totally viable.)

This Fox's aerial mobility poor? Fox's rising forward air is SERIOUSLY unappreciated. A Fox can jump shine stall and out of the shine stall do a rising fair in ANY direction to avoid from being predicted. It is a little ***** if you don't know the Fox is going to do that.

Yes, Fox's lateral movement is extremely poor. The data speaks for itself, his drift speed is only average and he falls far quicker than any other character in the game. Simply put, Fox just can't stay in the air long enough to go anywhere.

Shine stall to rising FAir makes no sense except as a recovery tactic. If you're trying to juggle your opponent, you're better off just staying on the ground and executing it from there. You're equally unpredictable from there, which for Fox isn't much anyway due to his fall speed.

I am having an extremely hard time making sense of this section. Could use nouns instead of pronouns =D I am getting confused on who the he is referring to Fox or ROB.

"He" pretty much always refers to Fox, since this is the ROB forum and I was assuming that "you" would be a ROB player. Sorry for the confusion, I suppose. :[ Long story short, Fox's range is too weak and his aerial speed too poor to approach ROB effectively with SH NAir or SH DAir. ROB's FTilt is long enough to hit Fox before he can even get close enough to SH at ROB (and land the aerial), let alone cross-up, and ROB's FSmash will punish Fox's inferior range otherwise.

If this is the case the Fox will then stick to a strong ground game. Working lasers, and DCSG into aerials would be one of the best bets if ROB aerial game is superior to Fox's.

Fox will not win a direct clash but he can still get on ROB's nerves by attacking his blind spot beneath him. Fox's FAir is fantastic at it since the continuous hitbox makes it tougher to dodge and Fox can rise with it much further than a regular jump; UAir is much easier to avoid.

They aren't clones....the only moves they share are the up air, down air, and their grabs ALL of which have different properties that make them EXTREMELY DIFFERENT from one another.

Luigified clone. [/end topic]

BTW: JCaesar is like super cool. Just saying.

Super true.

NeverKnowsBest · Mar 9, 2009

Mr.E said:
I return with personal experience (and actual matchup discussion afterward)! Just to summarize what I learned: Fox totally can't camp effectively because it takes 5-6 Blaster shots just to cancel out one of ROB's lasers landing. He can't shoot at you and hide in Shine at the same time. :/ The other thing I learned is that MOVING OUT OF THE WAY is, indeed, quite effective at negating... at least anything that starts with him using DAir. It basically removes UTilt juggles from the equation and makes him work a little harder to land a killer USmash.

Sorry, that's all I really got out of it.

NeverKnowsBest:

What was the personal experience with Fox?

Mr.E said:
Thank goodness that Fox is hardly unapproachable. He can't play the "brick wall run-away" game Falco can and, for all the damage Fox's Blaster may cause, it doesn't actually stuff anybody's approach with no hitstun. That said, neither Fox nor ROB can truly camp each other. If ROB tries to camp, he's just going to get his crap reflected back at him all day. If Fox tries to camp, he's going to eat more damage while FIARIN HIS LAZ0R than he's dealing in return. Any "camping" done should be limited, nobody's standing on the other side of the stage spamming projectiles. (Unlike versus Ike, for example, where that's totally viable.)

Fox isn't trying to brick wall ROB, he is just simply trying to get ROB to come to him. He blaster has never been used for damage, only annoying. Fox has a easier time camping due to his reflector and speed because if ROB starts to creep up slowly to use a projectile or suddenly do a dash attack, Fox is faster and will get his dash off first. Fox actually can probably win the camp game by SHL. It will be extremely slow and highly unlikely but I am just saying for cookie points =D

Mr.E said:
Yes, Fox's lateral movement is extremely poor. The data speaks for itself, his drift speed is only average and he falls far quicker than any other character in the game. Simply put, Fox just can't stay in the air long enough to go anywhere.
Shine stall to rising FAir makes no sense except as a recovery tactic. If you're trying to juggle your opponent, you're better off just staying on the ground and executing it from there. You're equally unpredictable from there, which for Fox isn't much anyway due to his fall speed.

It's used to help wear the shield because whenever Fox jumps in the air the oppoenent usually thinks "The Fox is going to down air, I better ready my shield for a grab. However the Fox then shine stalls then goes back higher into the air wearing the shield away giving for two options, to either go float somewhere more favorable, or try attacking the wore shield.

Mr.E said:
"He" pretty much always refers to Fox, since this is the ROB forum and I was assuming that "you" would be a ROB player. Sorry for the confusion, I suppose. :[ Long story short, Fox's range is too weak and his aerial speed too poor to approach ROB effectively with SH NAir or SH DAir. ROB's FTilt is long enough to hit Fox before he can even get close enough to SH at ROB (and land the aerial), let alone cross-up, and ROB's FSmash will punish Fox's inferior range otherwise.

Fox's only real viable approach is his dash cancel shield grab, which is a pseudo set up for his aerials.

Mr.E said:
Fox will not win a direct clash but he can still get on ROB's nerves by attacking his blind spot beneath him. Fox's FAir is fantastic at it since the continuous hitbox makes it tougher to dodge and Fox can rise with it much further than a regular jump; UAir is much easier to avoid.

Fox's don't usually up air unless through platforms or at low percents. Forwards air is much more ideal, which you stated =D.

Mr.E said:
Luigified clone. [/end topic]

NO WAYSSSSSS =D

Mr.E said:
Super true.

=D I love match up discussions! I get to hear about the awesomeness of other characters and how they clash with Fox.

Mr.E · Mar 9, 2009

The "personal experience" was what I stated there. Basically, I didn't really learn anything I didn't already know (or stated here), it just gave me a little practice on the matchup. JCaez is also right kinda, gimping Fox really isn't much harder than gimping Falco.

(He's still not easier.)

Fox can't camp effectively because ROB's projectiles do much more damage. If both fire something at each other at the same time, ROB wins; he deals at least 5% (weak laser) while Fox does 1-3%. If ROB fires in response to Fox shooting, it becomes a guessing game which Fox is still going to lose. If he shoots more than a couple Blaster shots, he could eat a stronger projectile in return (as above). If he predicts ROB to fire back and stops early to Shine, he could be punished during the lag time if ROB *doesn't* shoot anything while approaching. (And a reflected projectile isn't liable to hit ROB back anyway.) It's a reward not worth the risk for Fox, considering a couple shots of the Blaster is not nearly the damage he takes eating a weak laser, let alone a charged laser/gyro or an FTilt that punishes the lag on the Shine.

I tire of restating this. :[

NeverKnowsBest said:
It's used to help wear the shield because whenever Fox jumps in the air the oppoenent usually thinks "The Fox is going to down air, I better ready my shield for a grab. However the Fox then shine stalls then goes back higher into the air wearing the shield away giving for two options, to either go float somewhere more favorable, or try attacking the wore shield.

No no, that's where the "move out of the way" tactic shines! No wearing down the shield, no risking missing the timing and eating an Up Smash (or getting crossed up and UTilt juggled), no getting baited into an attack and punished. Fox starts Shine stalling above me? I walk back a couple inches and Fox falls too quickly to compensate for it. He can then be punished during landing lag by one of ROB's tilts. It's not a good approach, at least not against someone with ROB's range.

Commander_Beef · Mar 15, 2009

Mr.E said:
Falco is fast too.

I disagree. Falco is only fast with aerial support.

Darth Waffles · Mar 15, 2009

Falco is fast because his lasers slow you down. Fox is fast because he just is =P
So...general consensus/next half-finished character?

Sudai · Mar 15, 2009

Darth Waffles said:
Falco is fast because his lasers slow you down.

That's not Falco being fast, thats just making ROB slower.

Commander_Beef · Mar 15, 2009

Sudai said:
That's not Falco being fast, thats just making ROB slower.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, thus, Falco is generally slower.

Mr.E · Mar 16, 2009

It's kind of a dead discussion (versus ROB) by now, but Falco is certainly still plenty fast. His fall speed is still one of the highest, his ground jump is very high and quick, LOL Illusion, and so on. :[ Fox is merely faster.

Vorguen · Mar 19, 2009

No matter how many times you try to compare Fox to Falco, vs ROB he's still f*cking gay.

Commander_Beef · Mar 28, 2009

Vorguen said:
No matter how many times you try to compare Fox to Falco, vs ROB he's still f*cking gay.

LOL dude you said it homie.

R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #15: Fox

Smash Hero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Rookie

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Monochrome Like A Panda

Smash Lord

Monochrome Like A Panda

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Stuff here

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Information

Network