Peach Weekly Match-Up Rediscussion: Wario

As the number of characters left to discuss in the Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion thread begins to dwindle, I've have decided to start up topics for rediscussing characters who I feel may need to be covered again. This is primarily due to potential changes in the match up, new discoveries, new tactics and how they may have affected the match up. Also, for some characters, because they were discussed a long time ago, they may be out of date

Now because I can't trust some of you on this board, I'm going to copy/paste these rules on all of these rediscussion threads:

-SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS WITH EXAMPLES/EVIDENCE/THOUGHT/VIDEO. Do not say "Snake beats Peach" or "Peach owns Wolf" or something out of the blue without explaining why, you are just wasting thread space. Keep intelligent discussion.

-We are here to learn, not fight. We're all trying to become better Peach players, so please don't get into over heated discussions - learn and be reasonable.

-This thread serves two purposes. A) To determine how the matchup goes for Peach. B) To determine how to handle the matchup. So not only post why you think it goes (see guideline below), but post strategies and what you do that works.

-Feel free to add really good tactics you discover of a character already discussed. New tactics are helpful and don't think just because its already been discussed not to add anything, or we will never get better information on the matchup as the meta game progresses!

- PLEASE let me know if you want me to highlight anything from the thread discussion into that respective character's "summary" on this page. I'm not always sure whats the best advice and whats not so help point it out to me for me to highlight

- Attempting to ridicule someone to prove your point will not be tolerated. It disgusts me when people try to do this. If someone struggles with something and you don't or if someone thinks the match up is such and such because of this and you think 'well you can do this and this, why are they saying that?' for the love of god, explain to them your viewpoint. Insults such as 'well your air game must suck if you find this hard' are pathetic, childish and I will mostly likely disregard whatever else you have to say

I wish I didn't have to feel the need to do this as it clusters up the OP of each of these topics and someones going to have a cry about me putting this but sadly, I can't trust some of you. I don't care about personal feuds or the like. Keep the discussion match up related ok?

Now that's out of the way...this rediscussion will be dedicated to:

He's The Gingerbread Man

55:45 Wario although it could be even.

Wario has excellent aerial mobility having the third best in the game.

Smashes:

Watch out for his Fsmash! This move has very good killing power and has SA frames. This will be his main method of killing at high percents.

You dont have to worry about Dsmash since they rarely use it, and his Usmash is pretty much only good if he DACUS it.

Aerials:

His Dair rivals ours and I believe it autocancels, his Nair has two different hitboxes, his Fair and Bair arent really much of a threat. His Uair however is, it has really good killing properties if not stale. Watch his movements in the air.

Specials:

His Bite is really annoying, it has a lot of priority on almost everything. Watch out for this off stage as it'll lead to a suicide.

Every now and then they'll use the Bike to approach. Wario is immune to direct attacks if he does a wheelie since your attacks will hit the bike and not him. This move also aids him in recovery. If he has his bike on the ground dont destroy it so his recovery will be crushed.

Stages:

DO NOT pick Battlefield, ban it. Grab release to Usmash becomes much harder to land since he lands on a platform. CP FD or other stages with no platforms or many obstacles.

55-45 Peach's favor IMO. Wario's got a lot on Peach; his aerial mobility is godly and really annoying.

He can punish autocancelled fairs on shield that you'd normally be safe from by fsmashing- you'll trade hits, since he gets super armor, and it's a profitable trade for him. His weight and ability to outspace your kill moves will make it hard to land kills.

Avoid his dair and uair, and that Bite is really, really annoying.

The key is the grab release- it demolishes Wario. When I played FICTION, I'd grab release him at low percents to nair, and past 90%, pummel once, then release to usmash for a free kill.

However, Peach can also grab release to footstool to float to unsweetspotted bair for lock to regrab for a chain grab on stages like FD, I'm just out of practice on it (and most Wario's will ban FD). Additionally, I've been told Peach can grab release Wario to double-hit-floated-nair for 20% damage.

Problem is, Wario is the character in this game best suited to avoid ever getting grabbed. And that's the key. You have two good ways to approach this matchup:

A) Make it clear you want the grab, but then dropping your pattern and punishing his best choice to avoid a grab- lands you a lot of free hits, because given a choice between getting hit by a fair or getting grabbed, he'll always take the fair.

B) Don't try for the grab at all, hope he gets lazy, then when he's spacing to avoid attacks, grab.

I usually go for option A. I was probably too aggressive when fighting FICTION in our MM's, and he probably should have camped me more too, but it was very interesting. It was really hard to grab him.

One thing I figured out near the end; we all know that jab-grab is not inescapable, but the window in which to spotdodge is VERY tight, only a few frames. Most players will get grabbed more times than not if you jab-grab. FICTION was the ONLY player at BIO2 that consistently spotdodged every time, and he HAD to spotdodge every time, because if he didn't, the consequences of a jab were terrifying.

I realized during the last match that if I simply jab > fsmash or jab SH Dair...spotdodge would get *****, and Wario couldn't take the risk of getting grabbed, so he'd just have to eat it.

So my advice would be: establish a pattern of going for jab-grabs. When they get in the habit of spotdodging every time, alternate with jab-fsmash, jab-dair, or even just jab and chase if he's trying to roll or something. I dunno if Wario has other options other than spotdodging that'll avoid the grab in time. Worth testing. It's also worth noting that if your opponent IS NOT FICTION, they'll probably not be able to avoid the jab-grab consistently, so it's probably worthwhile to go for it xD

Peach's autocancelling nature and jab game give her a better chance of getting grabs than most characters, and the fact that her ground game is heavily based on anti-air helps against an aerial character like Wario. However, her lack of kill power and the fact that Wario can outspace all her kill moves will cause a lot of problems if you aren't able to land a grab (which is VERY possible with a character like Wario).

It's very even, but I think Peach might have a tiny advantage.

I'll link this thread to FICTION and see what he thinks.

Even just because wario can basically camp his way into ******** kill power and can edgeguard peach decently. Watch the floating here since wario can just jump above dair range or well...til ur float runs out. Oh, and yea there's also his DACUS **** on the float if the spacing is there. Imo in this match-up Peach's best moves are her nair/bair/ftilt/fsmash. Dair combos are pretty **** and are always useful but I like how nair/bair's quickness really help stave off wario's aerial assault since they do more damage than his nair/dair/fair and well probably clash. Ftilt and fsmash are just anti-aerial things that just really work. Up thrown turnips at times mess with him too sometimes and I think it's reasonable to say that you can save your fair as a kill move in this match-up. Fair/Bair/Nair shud also knock him off his bike if your space it right which isn't that hard. I usually try bair since it's faster and easier for me to hit w/.

And personally...idk...Battlefield doesn't seem so bad in this match-up just b/c even if you don't have grab release Peach is great with platforms b/c of her ******** utilt hitbox. Kinda gravitate under/near the platforms and Wario's might have a bit harder of a time approaching. I'd just ban any stage your peach will hate b/c Wario can pretty much play well on every stage that peach is pretty bad on.

But yea...I say 50/50. I wish I knew more about Wario...trying to 2nd him. >_<

oh, CP FD, and if banned, CP PictoChat (if legal).

If PictoChat is banned, good luck. xD I guess Smashville, but that platform is horrifyingly annoying.

Jab > Grab really isn't that hard to avoid if you either a) buffer spotdodges instinctively when you're within kill range or b) space so that you're not close enough to be jabbed in the first place

This matchup is way too even for any advantage for either side to matter. Peach has very good aerials but so does Wario. Wario's bite beats a lot of what Peach does, but her fair outranges it. Her fair also reaches above her (similar to Marth's fair), and that's always a pain for us Wario players. Your dair is an OK move here, but it's not too hard for us to SDI out and avoid followups b/c of our aerial movement. Both our nairs wreck, lol.

Don't expect to land any locks on us. After grabs we're used to SDIing to the sides, so should you footstool, we'll be SDIing that as well, making it pretty hard for you to land that weak bair hit. Your smashes outrange ours, and fsmash also does a sweep above Peach (ugh -_-). Don't DSMASH EVER, unless you want to be SDId into a WAFT TO THE FACE. Your upsmash wrecks. Our uptilt/upsmash will beat out any non-fair approach, they're stupidly high priority for whatever reason. Watch out for up-angled ftilts, that move actually kills earlier than you'd expect.

If a Wario likes to fsmash a lot it consider it free dash grabs out of shield.

Our waft destroys you guys, as does our upair, whereas we can live upwards of 160 consistently.

I call it even, the fight is annoying for both parties, though, lol.

Oh, and Bfield is a good stage fir you here, you can camp under a platform quite easily with fair, since it sweeps above you. Flat stages are good as well, but expect us to be extra cautious/campy on them. I honestly don't know where to cp peach aside from maybe Japes or RC.

Jab > Grab really isn't that hard to avoid if you either a) buffer spotdodges instinctively when you're within kill range or b) space so that you're not close enough to be jabbed in the first place

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b) isn't viable because of Peach's autocancelling nature. She can autocancel stuff against your shield to jab, for example. Jabs'll come out at the worst moments for you. I hit FICTION with a lot of jabs. He was just good at not letting me make something of the jabs.

a) is exactly what I'm saying. You Wario's HAVE to spotdodge it, which means we can just jab > fsmash every time. If we end up getting the grab, you die. I think we could even fake a grab by jabbing and running forward and shielding (FICTION always punished my jab grab attempts by dsmashing after spotdodging my grab, which, if I had run forward and shielded, I could have potentially gotten a grab out of. But I'm just working on theory with this one).

And I'm cool with 50:50, it's a very close matchup that depends on many factors. If Peach doesn't get a grab, Wario can live to very high percentages.

What I mean by b) is never be close enough for you to hit our shield at all, with anything, which we can do, lol. We ca optimally space right outside fair + any followup range if we retreat as you start your fair. Nothing really happens of interest, but we don't get punished in any way, at least

And yeah, Dsmash doesn't damage til frame 12, and is completely punishable on shield.

I agree with 55-45 Peach for Praxis's reasons. I might add in more myself later..

You can back air camp Wario. Try it. Just float and save your jump. If he comes aligned with you back air him, if he goes higher, float away, use that second jump and back air. Trust me, you can back air camp him. I do this and it's extremely hard for him to get a hit in. Basically both characters can camp each other but Peach has the favor in the matchup because she has turnips to hit him. Predict where he's gonna go and throw a turnip there, then try to guess where he'll go to avoid it and attack and pressure that area. These matches last a looooong time.

Does your backair beat our backair? I've never tested it but I know our backair is silly good. Also, I don't recommend repeatedly floating in place, as one quick DACUS can finish that.

If you're Edreeses status though, I guess you could pretty much do whatever you want

Yeah, I would agree with what most of you said. Whether it's 50-50, 45-55, or 55-45, it's a neutral matchup. In fact, this match-up shouldn't even exist IMO because it's the most exhausting one in the game lol If this match-up ever is about to happen, both people should just pick different characters instead of putting themselves through this lol

If ever one comes into the position of having to do Peach vs. Wario, they must instead do Ganon or Falcon dittos. This shall be the law.

Wario vs Peach is like Peach vs Jigglypuff.

Very campy and very floaty. XD

PhantomX said:

If ever one comes into the position of having to do Peach vs. Wario, they must instead do Ganon or Falcon dittos. This shall be the law.

Click to expand...

I would actually agree to this. xD

But only if done on Spear Pillar or Port Town.

We actually did this in tournament finals once in doubles here in WA. xD Four Captain Falcons on Spear Pillar.

It's got to be done on WarioWare. Giant Ganons.

but peach vs a good wario sounds fun he just looks so, punch(slap)able :D

MrEh said:

Wario vs Peach is like Peach vs Jigglypuff.

Very campy and very floaty. XD

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MrEh speaks the truth.

FICTION on AIM:
Fiction:
u can tell them what i said lol
peach vs wario on FD/pictochat = 60-40 peach
on BF/lylat = 55-45 peach
smashville = 55-45 wario or 50-50


When discussing camping:
Fiction:
wario and peach can both camp the other one to absolute death
edrees knows how to keep wario out perfectly
peach has the advantage
trust me
with the bair thing
its sooo gay lol



I'm going to stick with 55-45 Peach, with a recommendation to play Falcon or Ganondorf dittos on WarioWare or Spear Pillar.

the only wario out here is fict and if i had to play him there's no way i can do cf dittos. usually I would but i know for a fact his is waaaaay better than mine and i hate ganon. =(

i'd love to pick ganon, this seems to be a nice tidy matchup to get over the gloom of MK.

Here's evidence of how much of a strain this match up

-Prescript: Edrees and Futile have a 3 match set last stock at Axis, edrees loses but each match lasts an eternity with insane spacing battles

Futile : Dude, our matches are so intense, i have to focus so much
Edrees: seriously
Futile_ that's why i beat DSF in winners
Futile - my spacing was perfect from after we had our set
Futile- but then I was messing up when i faced him again in losers, it had been awhile since our match

LoL it's so true, whenever i play against wario i play well the rest of the day because i focused so hard on spacing =P

I'll do captian falcon dittos!!!! I love those. i stopped going to tournies but i would attend a falcon ditto tourney

EdreesesPieces said:

Here's evidence of how much of a strain this match up

-Prescript: Edrees and Futile have a 3 match set last stock at Axis, edrees loses but each match lasts an eternity with insane spacing battles

Futile : Dude, our matches are so intense, i have to focus so much
Edrees: seriously
Futile_ that's why i beat DSF in winners
Futile - my spacing was perfect from after we had our set
Futile- but then I was messing up when i faced him again in losers, it had been awhile since our match

LoL it's so true, whenever i play against wario i play well the rest of the day because i focused so hard on spacing =P

I'll do captian falcon dittos!!!! I love those. i stopped going to tournies but i would attend a falcon ditto tourney

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This is why I always try to go fight G&W's before major matches, it makes me think xD

I sound stupid for this, I know.

But how to do force a jump grab release?

Canvasofgrey said:

I sound stupid for this, I know.

But how to do force a jump grab release?

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Because Peach holds Wario above the ground; he will ground release if he escapes while you are pummeling, and jump release if you are not. He has no control over it.

Just make sure you're not pummeling him when he breaks out and he will jump and you can do anything you want, including run over and usmash him.

Grab and dont do anything.

Ah... I get it. kk Thanks. =3

Praxis said:

Just make sure you're not pummeling him when he breaks out and he will jump and you can do anything you want, including run over and usmash him.

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... but I could still pummel a little at high percents? Maybe get a risky kick in?

I wouldn't risk it..some people can mash hard and get out fast. I guess if they are over like 150% you can mash once and be safe.

'Run run as fast as you can. You can't catch me, I'm The Gingerbread Man!'

Wario is quite literally a pain in the arse. He has incredible air control, great aerials, decent recovery and a strong selction of kill moves

Wario is going to be spending most of his time in the air, not only because that is where he excels but because of the horrors that await him if he gets grabbed

Perhaps Wario ate one of the game designers lunch or something but Wario has been cursed with a dodgy animation when he is grab released. He can't do anything for a certain amount of frames and doesn't get released very far away. This allows Peach to unleash all kinds of nasty tricks on him, the most lethal including an Up Smash and infinites (can someone confirm if these work?)

On paper, this match up should be completely/heavily in our favour. We have a projectile, a good anti air game and our killing problem is solved. Unfortunetly, things are never quite the same off paper as they are on paper

First of all, Wario is extremely hard to grab, due to his incredibe aerial control, always being on the look out for getting grabbed...and also partially to do with the fact that Wario has a noticably larger grab range than Peach. Wario also has strong kill moves. Uair is very strong and dangerous when you're falling back onto the stage. F Smash and his Waft have SA frames and Waft in paticular will kill at some embarrasing percents when it connects right

Bair is good at stopping Wario's aerials (I was so happy when I found out about this, cheers Edrees ). Turnips are useful as Wario has no real projectile. You're going to have to space with your aerials really well because Peach's anti air stuff such as F Tilt can be easily punished by the jumping madman and his baiting tricks. Be on the look out for gimping Wario when he's recovering. He's got good recovery but it's pretty situational and if his Bike is onstage, don't destroy but leave it as it'll seriously hamper Wario's recovery. Learn where Wario will go when he's jumping off his bike in the air and get ready to Fair him

I'd put this match up as probably even but if it's going towards anyones favour I would have said Peach's. This match is very tiring and don't be surprised if it drags out for ages


Oohhh yikes I almost forgot

Wario mains, recently, you've come up with that new theory of 'air camping' or whatever you called it. I was originally skeptical because it sounds pretty unrealistic to do but I'm aware that was wrong of me. Would air camping affect this match up at all?

I would definitely say 50-50. Such a boring battle. Definitely "tougher" than fighting Marth, simply because matches can go on forever.

Granted, the only quality Wario I've played is Quik, who ***** me, but that's because I didn't have major experience with a "good" Wario (my roommate plays as him, but really only dairs to fsmash most of the time). I do feel like it would be a major pain if the matchups were even though.

Also, isn't the Wario grab release infinite difficult to do? I can't quite remember how to do it, since I should probably learn for my next tourney.

I agree with 55-45 for peach. Wario cannot camp peach above platforms (ie brinstar) as well as you guys may think. I took Eli out in a set at COT4 ending on brinstar.

Everything I could possibly say has been said.

I've never had to aircamp a peach, I don't know how plausible it is, though. Generally my Warlock Punches beat out their Falcon Punches

PhantomX said:

I've never had to aircamp a peach, I don't know how plausible it is, though. Generally my Warlock Punches beat out their Falcon Punches

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Lies. Horrible, horrible lies. Nothing can beat out the Falcon PAWWWWNCH

I wouldn't have thought air camping would be great anyway because Peach has enough to follow Wario...and if he airdodges into the ground, I would try and get a Floating Nair in

It looks like I can wrap this discussion up reasonably quickly which is good. I'll give it some more time of course but I'll move on when everyone else is ready

One last thing though - When Wario is around 115%, that's generally the safest, most guranteed area that you'll kill him with an Up Smash
However, when he gets to around this percent, don't go spamming grabs. Wario will be even more alert and whiffed grabs all over the place are just begging for punishment. Very rarely should you go chasing for the grabs. The grabs will come to you. Not very often but if you go running about trying desperatly to get one, you can easily lose

Never go out of your way to land a grab, it's not worth it. If you see an opportunity to punish with a grab, then go for it. Otherwise, don't try to go for the grab unless it's a guaranteed thing. Wario will beat the crap out of you otherwise. ><

The same goes with pretty much any character with strong grabs or follow-up that leads to a kill. Ness' Bthrow, Shiek's grab release -> DACUS on Metaknight, Squirtle's Dthrow, Olimar's bluepikmin Bthrow, Ivysaur's Bthrow, Peach's grab release -> Usmash on Wario, etc etc.

Throwing is among the safest ways to land a KO, since you rarely stale it. But because of this, Grab gaming becomes much more predictable at higher percents. As everyone says, Don't go on a grabbing spree, only grab when you see an opportunity to punish, or clever pivots and such.

Personally, I would not rely on the grab release -> Usmash KO on Wario. Maybe once a match to shake them up on Peach's power, but otherwise it's not a reliable form to KO. However, get it in whenever you can.

Bizzare but rather pointless fact - Wario can Mortar Slide xD

Also, I've been hearing rumours about this big bike tire thing which can apprantly rack up a fair amount of damage. What is it exactly? D:

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Bizzare but rather pointless fact - Wario can Mortar Slide xD

Click to expand...

Of course he can, All the mortar slide is, is a DACUS. As far as I know, Sheik, Wario, Link, Snake, Zleda (Very slight, Metaknight (I think), and Sonic can DACUS.

And Jigglypuff.

No no no >< I know what I DACUS is

I'm talking about this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH-yv9Aha4g

After 1:00

I might have called it something different...you know how Snake can dash attack into his opponent? If the early part connects with his opponent and Snake uses his Up Smash. Wario (and Falco) can do this but it's not as useful because Snake's Up Smash follows them. Just a little something I thought I'd throw out

You'd probably never catch Wario doing it though because it could result in getting grabbed