Ryusuta
Smash Master
I would totally give Charizard a 6/4 against ZSS. His spacing, grabbing, and gimping are all very deadly in this match.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Pokedex Entry #whatever: Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Steeler
- Start date
CHOMPY
Sinbad: King of Sindria
ZSS is impossible for me to approach with Charizard. He gets juggled too easily and gets outcamped by the side B from ZSS.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Her side and neutral Bs can be baited and countered by Flamethrower and Rock Smash because of their hit areas and because of Charizard's mobility. While I do concede that Charizard can be juggled fairly easily with ZSS, it's the last hit that counts, not the ones leading up to it. ZSS's best position is edge guarding Charizard, and that's still not the easiest position to put him in.
And you'll note that I never said ZSS was easy to edge guard. What I did say was that Charizard's gimping ability is very good. There is certainly a difference there. Very few of ZSS's return options against Charizard are 100% safe. They probably won't KILL her, but she's likely to get hurt on the way back. Meanwhile, Charizard always has that down air, which is insane.
And you'll note that I never said ZSS was easy to edge guard. What I did say was that Charizard's gimping ability is very good. There is certainly a difference there. Very few of ZSS's return options against Charizard are 100% safe. They probably won't KILL her, but she's likely to get hurt on the way back. Meanwhile, Charizard always has that down air, which is insane.
CHOMPY
Sinbad: King of Sindria
if shes that high up in the air where Charizard cant down air then your almost better off to have her approach you and hit her with a Rock Smash. Timing and spacing is everything and thats why theres a thing called Risk and Reward. The risk is that you may get spiked by ZSS's down B and you get punished if you get the timing and spacing wrong. The reward is that shes gone if she gets hit by the dair.
Keep in mind though that you can still pull off the tether with ZSS to grab the edge if shes close enough and has a quick reaction.
Keep in mind though that you can still pull off the tether with ZSS to grab the edge if shes close enough and has a quick reaction.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
OK, so my recovery question was stupid.
On a different note, wouldn't Squirtle be in serious trouble against her simply because of the infinite (unless of course it's banned)?
On a different note, wouldn't Squirtle be in serious trouble against her simply because of the infinite (unless of course it's banned)?
Ryusuta
Smash Master
There's an infinite? Yikes, I haven't heard of that. Is there a video/description of it?
Toby.
Smash Master
I dont remember ever seeing a video of it, but there was a lot of talk about the various chaingrabs on squirtle a while back. I seem to be recall it being the same sort of thing as marths, ie following squirtles air release and regrabbing.
Oh and sorry bestiarius, reading back I was pretty harsh
Oh and sorry bestiarius, reading back I was pretty harsh
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Well, my alter ego Captain Nimrod did rear his ugly head. So, it is an infinite, not just a chaingrab? Somebody mentioned it a page or two ago.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
Its a pummel infinte thats not really that bad.(just the pummel)
If she misses the throw, she is going to get almost as much as damage as the pummel thing unless if Squirtle is high %.
Depends on the stage really
Its what edge capabilities that make it bad though for Squirtle.
If she misses the throw, she is going to get almost as much as damage as the pummel thing unless if Squirtle is high %.
Depends on the stage really
Its what edge capabilities that make it bad though for Squirtle.
Miles.
Smash Champion
Its not that bad. You dont auto lose a stock if you get grabbed.
Just dont get grabbed.
Like Fiction does with Wario.
DONT GET GRABBED.
Just dont get grabbed.
Like Fiction does with Wario.
DONT GET GRABBED.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Does the infinite really work? I tried it on my friend and he was able to ground break it. I don't think it works. But either way I don't think an infinite works in discussions since it wouldn't be legal in tourneys. I still stand by my opinion on the matchup. Even with Charizard.
Well I gave my opinion and the reasons why, I cant really do more to convince others who don't see. So you guys work that out.
Well I gave my opinion and the reasons why, I cant really do more to convince others who don't see. So you guys work that out.
Kadiev
Smash Ace
ZSS Main here my opinions on pokemon trainer
Charizard - lol I love big targets easier to hit with whip and stun gun.
Ivy - Pretty much has nothing on ZSS. I find it easy to kill and punish. B move pisses me off
Squirtle - Pretty hard very fast, can keep up and combo. That beastly down throw grab too.
Charizard - lol I love big targets easier to hit with whip and stun gun.
Ivy - Pretty much has nothing on ZSS. I find it easy to kill and punish. B move pisses me off
Squirtle - Pretty hard very fast, can keep up and combo. That beastly down throw grab too.
I promised myself i wouldnt post on here but i guess i have to lol Well this is chuck nasty and for the zss match up lets see i play one of my friends the best zss in ok and here is what u do she does have a infinite on squirtle but its very hard to keep it goin so u just keep jumping and fair and bair infront and behind hir and jab combos u should be fine ivy is crap just switch and take the hit at least against zss and charizard just stay close pressure the shield alot with rock smash and guard the ledge with flames and u should do fine
Ryusuta
Smash Master
What tournaments are you going to? Pretty much all high-end tournaments allow infinites up to 300%. And they only have the cutoff there to avoid stalling the match.
Clash of the Titans 4 banned all standing and walking infinites.
Which, I believe, is dumb, but that was a national tournament.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
ZSS has pontential to be Top 10.
Squirtle is around 50:50
Ivy is around 4:6 ZSS
Char is around 45:55 ZS
Squirtle is going to be annoying, in that he can bascally be moving around, which means you cannot touch him. Hitting him is like #### hard. So you cannot try to do anything risky. He can just freakin Combo you at low percents so you have to play sort of a telegraph game.
Ivsaur gets *****. ZSS can get in Ivys space, and it is hard for her to get in hers. Not to mention that Ivy dies fairly easy to ZSS.
ZSS can Combo Charizard to Oblivion, which means putting alot of pressure on him can mess him up. Flamethrower is very annoying, as it needs to be predicted in some cases to be punished. Rock smash is like a C-C-Combo breaker. Did I mention how his Grab range is like, Melee Marths? You can deal with his grab more effectively thsn other characters though.
It sounds too wierd, let me change it lol
Squirtle is around 50:50
Ivy is around 4:6 ZSS
Char is around 45:55 ZS
Squirtle is going to be annoying, in that he can bascally be moving around, which means you cannot touch him. Hitting him is like #### hard. So you cannot try to do anything risky. He can just freakin Combo you at low percents so you have to play sort of a telegraph game.
Ivsaur gets *****. ZSS can get in Ivys space, and it is hard for her to get in hers. Not to mention that Ivy dies fairly easy to ZSS.
ZSS can Combo Charizard to Oblivion, which means putting alot of pressure on him can mess him up. Flamethrower is very annoying, as it needs to be predicted in some cases to be punished. Rock smash is like a C-C-Combo breaker. Did I mention how his Grab range is like, Melee Marths? You can deal with his grab more effectively thsn other characters though.
It sounds too wierd, let me change it lol
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I wanna ask the same thing to you. They must have some fun tourneys where you're from to allow infinites like DDD's to DK.
I dont see how you can justify Ivy being any better than 65/45 without sounding bias...
All charizard has is his grab range (Which still cant outrange/catch most of ZSS' attacks if spaced right) and his rock smash for priority reasons(and whoever said charizard's rock smash comes out out frame 2 needs to check again). ZSS can juggle charizard like crazy, he's too big of a target and has a airdodge long enough for us to easily punish with our high jump and 4 frame uairs.
6/4 ZSS
and Squirtle is 5/5
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Think Ice Climbers, chief.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
I said Ivy was around 6:4 not exactly 6:4
Charizard can kill you more easily and can rack up damage as well, If ZSS is above Charizard anytime, she is at a very bad disadvantage. His grab range is still a great factor, and Flamethrower is a great option since Zss B move is neutralized.
It would be 6:4 ZSS if items were around.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
we can dair anytime someone is under us giving us too much pressure to handle normally. it autocancels if we jump then do it. It stops people like MK who likes to do constant uairs or tornado while we're above him.
Our side b out-ranges his flamethrower and we shouldnt really be using lasers in the first place against people who can charge you well like charizard since it can be punished EASILY due to lag. I only find it for the most part useful against campers really. his flamethrower would really only be useful if used right near the mouth for maximum damage, but your gonna have to find a perfect opening since we SHOULD be always moving.
There are a lot of characters that can KILL eariler than we can. doesnt mean that they will always be able to HIT us with those attacks if we have good spacing and speed and try to make Charizard go in the air.
Items are just based on if the player himself is good with them so I dont use them in matchup discussions often.
So I kinda nullified your points there. Any more?
Our side b out-ranges his flamethrower and we shouldnt really be using lasers in the first place against people who can charge you well like charizard since it can be punished EASILY due to lag. I only find it for the most part useful against campers really. his flamethrower would really only be useful if used right near the mouth for maximum damage, but your gonna have to find a perfect opening since we SHOULD be always moving.
There are a lot of characters that can KILL eariler than we can. doesnt mean that they will always be able to HIT us with those attacks if we have good spacing and speed and try to make Charizard go in the air.
Items are just based on if the player himself is good with them so I dont use them in matchup discussions often.
So I kinda nullified your points there. Any more?
Phiddlesticks
Smash Lord
As opposed to Ivysaur and Charizard who will make sure to stand ABSOLUTELY STILL AT ALL TIMES
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
He can SH to a Flamethrower to avoid a grounded whip, and shield a SH whip.(Actually I heard that ZSS has a bad SH. Is this true?)
Up smash can beat Dair I believe, but I need to test that. Flamethrower is a safe way to rack up damage if you are caught. You would DI away from it taking 10% maybe, or take like 25% to damage him usually if DI towards him.
Phiddlesticks: Squirtle is more moblie and Much smaller than Ivysaur and Charizard.
If you want exact numbers.
50:50 even for Squirtle and ZSS
70:30 Advantage ZSS
60:40, 55:45 Advantage ZSS
Overall a 55:45 ZSS advantange
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I think her SH is personal preference. I think it's good because you can SH uair people OOS who are above you or jump high enough to avoid certain moves (rob's dsmash) and counter with bair. her aerials arent even good as an approach so even if she did have a normal SH imo it wouldnt have much effectiveness.
The thing is, ZSS has some weaknesses that make her appear not so good in the hands of beginners since her playstyle is different, but her strengths are so great and UNIQUE that they make up for it plus more.
The thing is, ZSS has some weaknesses that make her appear not so good in the hands of beginners since her playstyle is different, but her strengths are so great and UNIQUE that they make up for it plus more.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
I know, its why I think she has the pontential to be Top 10. My scrubby friends like to say "just edgehog her" lol, But right now, only Snakeeeeee is getting attention with her.
I have to ask, why do you not consider the suit pieces as an advantage? I mean Diddy's metagame is stage control with the bananas.
Or did it switch?
I have to ask, why do you not consider the suit pieces as an advantage? I mean Diddy's metagame is stage control with the bananas.
Or did it switch?
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
OK, This makes sense to me. I'm kinda leaning towards the 55:45 Char because Items won't be around for long (and if we are talking about a PT mainer worth their salt, Items won't likely pop up when facing Charizard, as you're likely facing Squirtle first).
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I don't use them in discussions anymore since it's not the items themselves that matter, it's the player that uses them. we cant really say that items give us an advantage because it's just about if you can use them right. Some players use the pieces better than others so we cant generalize ZSS' items as a character but as the skill of the player. if the items are used wrong then an opponent can just shield and use the piece to his/her advantage. Some players (like Snakeee) gave up using 3 pieces and just go with one. Learning to use them right can be a challenge but once learned and fully mastered (will be in time) can give us an extreme advantage.
I mean I could say the items are an advantage seeing as I use all 3 of them and do very well even against great players, but then someone will talk about how they played another ZSS on WIFI, or somewhere else and that they could just stop the pieces by shielding and taking them or other nonsense since the ZSS will probably just randomly glide toss into them or stand still and use laser then BLATANTLY throw a piece at them. then we would spend 2 pages explaining that it's not the case and that we can do so-and-so to stop your so-and-so. So I'm just done with it...
If I was able to convince people that the items pose a threat when used properly, and that every ZSS player knew how to use them to their full potential(which MOST don't). then I would use it in discussions.
Oh, and ZSS is top 5.