Trainer Frame Data (NOW COMPLETE?! .. maybe)

Well, I was doing frame dat00s in person with tcranter the other day, and it was boring, and it wasn't perfection, so today, thinking it would be a nice fast process, thought i'd start it all again. WITH PERFECTION. Problem being is that Pokemon Trainer is perhaps the unmanliest entity in the game.

I don't wish to complain further, I'm sure if you wish to take a moment to understand what's below you'll see how tediously annoying it would have been (and six-fold so of any other character).

Pokemon Trainer:

NOTES:
GOOD GOING SAKURAI:
While testing this I realised something: tired pokemon give less hit stun as WELL as knock back. Meaning all “lag” values that have a ‘ | ‘ separate “Strong | Weak”.
JUMPS:
Attacks buffered on THE LAST FRAME OF STARTUP are IGNORED.
Any up smash/special before the JUMP will cancel it.
Holding JUMP on the frame after START UP will make you FULL HOP.
AERIALS:
The meaning of ‘Lag’ frames: If you hit the ground during these frames you will suffer “LANDING LAG“; otherwise it’s JUMP’s landing lag. These lag frames are hard to test, and are rough estimates. Question mark (?) means ‘check’ via animation, plus (+) means tested to at least this frame.

SHIELD:
Shielding is minimum 7 frames unless perfect shielded. 5th frame after a perfect shield you may attack; ALL button combinations from 1-4 are IGNORED.
i.e. if you perfect shield something on frame 2, then on frame 6 input an attack that will start on frame 7; but if you did the input on 5, it would have been ignored.

Start up: 0
Shield (min): 1-7
‘Perfect’: 1-3
Vulnerable: 8-14 (i.e. 7 frame cool down)

Down Special (switch out):
Start up: 0
Invulnerable: 1-100
Vulnerable: 101-120

Yes, loading times would lag this up. But you’re a complete sitting duck for 20 frames, now you know.

Squirtle​

ROLL FORWARD/BACKWARD
Start up: 1-2
Invulnerable: 3-19
Vulnerable: 20-29

SPOT DODGE:
Start up: 1-2
Invulnerable: 3-21
Vulnerable: 22-25

AIR DODGE:
Start up: 1-3
Invulnerable: 4-29
Vulnerable: 30-39

JUMP
Start up: 1-4
Landing Lag (full hop): 4
Landing Lag (short hop): 2

AERIALS:

Forward Air:
Start up: 1-4
Hit: 5-14
Lag: 15-24+
End: 37
~Landing Lag: 12
~Hit/Shield Lag: 8 | 7
~Shield Hit Stun: 13 | 9

Back Air:
Start up: 1-4
Hit: 5-14
Lag: 15-26+
End: 34
~Landing Lag: 9
~Hit/Shield Lag: 7 | 6
~Shield Hit Stun: 10 | 9

Up Air:
Start up: 1-5
Hit: 6
Lag: 7-18
End: 24
~Landing Lag: 21
~Hit/Shield Lag: 8 | 6
~Shield Hit Stun: 12 | 9

Neutral Air:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4, 7, 21, 29
Lag: 0-36
End: 48
~Landing Lag: 12
~Hit Lag: 6 | 5
~Shield Hit Stun: 11 | 6

Down Air:
Start Up: 1-5
Hit: 6, 9, 19, 22, 27-28 (due to each moves hit stun, if it hits, second hit will be 13, third 20, etc)
Hit on 28 does more damage?
Lag: 45
End: 50
~Landing Lag: 19
All second numbers are for the final hit.
~[Shield] Hit Lag: 4, 12 | 4, 10
~Shield Hit Stun: 5, 7 | 1, 7

GROUND ATTACKS:

Jab:
-First
Hit: 1
Jab Window: 4-29
End: 16
Hit/Shield Lag: 5 | 4
Shield Hit Stun: 7 | 5
-Second:
Hit: 5 (9)
Jab Window: 9-30 (13-34)
End: 21 (30)
Hit/Shield Lag: 6 | 4
Shield Hit Stun: 7 | 5
Hit Lag: 5 |
-Third:
Hit: 6 (19)
End: 36 (49)
Hit Lag: 6 | 5
Shield Hit Stun: 7 | 5

Dash Attack:
Start up: 1-5
Hit: 6-24
End: 41
Hit Lag: 7 | 6
Shield Hit Stun 21 | 12

Up Tilt:
Start up: 1-4
Hit: 5-6
End: 17
Hit Lag: ? | 5
Shield Hit Stun: ? | 7

Forward Tilt:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4
End: 17
Hit Lag: ? | 5
Shield Hit Stun: ? | 7

Down Tilt:
Start up: 1-5
Hit: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14,
End: 36
Second Number is final hit
Hit Lag: ? | 4, 5
Shield Hit Stun: ? | 5, 7

Up Smash:
Start up: 1-18
Hit: 19, 25
End: 65
Hit Lag: 14 | 11
Shield Hit Stun: 5, 8 | 5, 11

Forward Smash:
Start up: 1-17
Hit: 18-20
End: 64
Hit Lag: 11 | 10
Shield Hit Stun: 14 | 12

Down Smash:
Start up: 1-16
Hit: 17
End: 52
Hit Lag: 9 | 6
Shield Hit Stun: 14 | 10

SPECIALS:

Neutral B:
[Full ‘Gills’]
Start up: 1-25
Hit: 26-60
End: 70

Up B:
Start up: 1-9
Hit: 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 44
Landing Lag: 30
Hit Lag: 4, 11 |
Shield Hit Stun: 5, 5 | 5, 5

Forward B:
Start up: 1-17
Hit: 19
Earliest Cancel: 60?
Ending Lag: 20
Hitlag: 6 | 4
Shield Hit Stun: 11 |


ROLL FORWARD/BACKWARD:
Start up: 1-3
Invulnerable: 4-19
Vulnerable: 20-32

SPOT DODGE:
Start up: 1
Invulnerable: 2-20
Vulnerable: 21-25

AIR DODGE
Start up: 1-3
Invulnerable: 4-29
Vulnerable: 30-39

JUMP
Start up: 1-5
Landing Lag (full hop): 4
Landing Lag (short hop): 2

AERIALS

Forward Air:
Start up: 1-14
Hit: 15-19
Lag: 20-40
End: 50
~Landing Lag: 28
~Hit/Shield Lag: 8 | 6
~Shield Hit Stun: 13 | 10

Back Air:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4-6, 13-14
Lag: 1-45 (i.e. ‘perfect’ auto-cancellable)
End: 45
~Landing Lag: 10
~Hit/Shield Lag: 1, 4 | 1, 4
~Shield Hit Stun: 6, 6 | 5, 6

Up Air:
Start up: 1-11
Hit: 12
Lag: 1-40
End: 52
~Landing Lag: 22
~Hit/Shield Lag: 10 | 8
~Shield Hit Stun: 16 | 13

Neutral Air:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28
Lag: 1-35
End: 40
~Landing Lag: 11
~Hit/Shield Lag: 4, 10 | 4, 10
~Shield Hit Stun: 6, 6 | 6, 6

Down Air:
Start up: 1-10
Hit: 11
Lag: 1-45
End: 63
~Landing Lag: 28
~Hit/Shield Lag: - | 7
~Shield Hit Stun: - | 10

GROUND ATTACKS

Jab:
-First:
Start up: 1-6
Hit: 7-10
Jab Window: 12-29 (auto: 14)
End: 27
Hit Lag: - | 4
Shield Hit Stun - | 6
-Second
Start up: 1-7 (12-18)
Hit: 8-10 (19-20)
Hit Lag: - | 4
Shield Hit Stun - | 6
-Third:
The last two hits of the “jab” will start again at the 56th frame if you hit attack at any point during the jab window…
Start up: 1-11 (21-31)
Hit: 12-14, 22-24 (32-34, 42-44)
Jab Window: 23-32 (43-54)
End: (57)
Hit Lag: - | 4
Shield Hit Stun - | 6

Dash Attack:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4-20
End: 43
Hit Lag: - | 7
Shield Hit Stun - | 12

Up Tilt:
Start up: 1-8
Hit: 9-14
End: 34
Hit Lag: - | 5
Shield Hit Stun - | 7

Forward Tilt:
Start up: 1-5
Hit: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18
End: 41
Hit Lag: - | 4
Shield Hit Stun - | 6

Down Tilt:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4, 9
End: 37
Hit Lag: - | 4, 5
Shield Hit Stun - | 8, 7

Up Smash:
Start up: 1-25
Hit: 26
End: 59
Hit Lag: - | 9
Shield Hit Stun - | 13

Forward Smash:
Start up: 1-16
Hit: 17-19
End: 59
Hit Lag: - | 9
Shield Hit Stun - | 12

Down Smash:
Start up: 1-15
Hit: 16-17
End: 63
Hit Lag: - | 6
Shield Hit Stun - | 7

SPECIALS:

Neutral B:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4-5, 16-23 (every 7 frames there after)
End: 85 (minimum)
Finish Lag: 31 (i.e. how many frames after you let go of ‘special’)
Hit Lag: - | 5, 1 (i.e. none)
Shield Hit Stun - | 8, 6 (awesome)

Up B:
Start up: 1-21
Hit: 22-25
End: 47
~Landing Lag: 30
Hit Lag: - | 6
Shield Hit Stun - | 8

Side B:
Start up: 1-21
Hit: 22-69
End: 50
Hit Lag: 1 | 1
Shield Hit Stun - | 10


ROLL FORWARD/BACKWARD:
Forward~
Invulnerable: 4-19
End: 35

Backward~
Invulnerable: 4-19
End: 36

SPOT DODGE
Invulnerable: 2-20
End: 25

AIR DODGE
Invulnerable: 4-29
End: 39

JUMP
*note: Charizard does not seem to have any buffer for starting aerials upon jumping.
Start up: 1-7
Landing Lag (full hop): 5
Landing Lag (short hop): 2

AERIALS:
Note: all advantages on aerials for “lagless” must include the LANDING LAG from the jump
e.g. fair’s advantage on lagless will be either -13 (short hop) or -16 (full hop)

Fair
Hit: 9, 11, 13, 15-16
End: 47
Lagless End: 26
Landing Lag: 32
Hit Lag: 5, 5, 4, 4
Shield Stun: 6, 6, 4, 4
Advantage: -32
Advantage (lagless): -11
Hit Stun: 14 (1st hit), 0 (3rd/4th hit)

Bair
Hit: 7-8, 10-11
End: 41
Lagless End: 25
Landing Lag: 22
Hit Lag: 5, 7 (6)
Shield Stun: 6, 10 (8)
Advantage: -28
Advantage (lagless): -12
Advantage Tip: -27
Advantage Tip (lagless): -11

Uair
Hit: 6-27
End: 45
Lagless End: 38
Landing Lag: 22
Hit Lag: 7
Shield Stun: 10
Advantage: -36
Advantage (lagless): -29
Hit Stun: 21
*Due to the extent of the hitbox, advantage can be increased by 21 (i.e. -15, -8)

Dair:
Hit: 18-20
End: 51
Lagless End: 41
Landing Lag: 35
Hit Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 13
Advantage: -29
Advantage (lagless): -19
Hit Stun: 20

Nair
Hit: 8-28
End: 59
Lagless End: 31
Landing Lag: 22
Hit Lag: 7(8)
Shield Stun: 10 (12)
Advantage: -48
Advantage (lagless): -20
Advantage Tip: -47
Advantage Tip (lagless): -19
*Note: Due to the extent of the hitbox, advantage can increase by 20 (i.e. ~0, +1)

GROUND ATTACKS

Jab
First:
Hit: 4-6
Action: 20-38
End: 22
Hit Lag: 5
Shield Stun: 6
Advantage: -17
Hit Stun: 9
Second:
Hit: 15 (10)
Action: 20-38 (15-33)
End: 35 (25)
Hit Lag: 5
Shield Stun: 6
Advantage: -19
Hit Stun: 17
Third:
Hit: 27-28 (7-8)
End: 53 (33)
Hit Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 8
Advantage: -24
Hit Stun: 14

Dash Attack
Hit: 10-12 [sweetspot], 13-18
End: 44
Hit Lag: 8, 7
Shield Stun: 11, 10
Advantage: -31
Hit Stun: 14, 15

Utilt:
Hit: 9-12,13-14
End: 33
Hit Lag: 7, 8
Shield Stun: 10, 10
Advantage: -21
Hit Stun: 15, 28!

Ftilt:
Hit: 12-13
End: 41
Hit Lag: 8
Shield Stun: 10 (11)
Advantage: -27
Advantage Tip: -27
Hit Stun: 13, 14

Dtilt:
Hit: 8
End: 27
Hit Lag: 7 (10)
Shield Stun: 9 (12)
Advantage: -17
Advantage Tip: -17
Hit Stun: 20, 27

Usmash:
Hit: 6-10, 17-22
End: 48
Hit Lag: 5, 8
Shield Stun: 6, 10
Advantage: -29
Hit Stun: 15, 13

Fsmash:
Hit: 22-24, 26-30
End: 68
Hit Lag: 5, 10
Shield Stun: 6, 15
Advantage: -37
Hit Stun: -

Dsmash:
Hit: 14-15
End: 60
Hit Lag: 10
Shield Stun: 15
Advantage: -41
Hit Stun: 13

Bump for completion (I think).

INTRODUCING! CHARIZARD'S SPECIALS!

SPECIALS:

Flame Thrower (neutral):
Hit: 19-25 (reiterating every 6 frames)
End: 67 (minimum)
Finish Lag: 25 (how many frames after you let go of 'special')
Hit Lag: 1
Shield Stun: 4 (close), 5 (far)
Advantage (shield): -21 (close), -20 (far)
Hit Stun: 11 (close), 7 (far)

Fly (Up):
Hit: 9 [1]; 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26 [2], 27-28 [3]
End: 35
Landing Lag: 30
Hit Lag: 5 [1]; 1 [2], 5 [3]
Shield Stun: 5 [1+2], 7 [3]
Hit Stun: 14 [1], ? [2], 13 [3]

Rock Smash (side):
Notes:
1. The individual 'hits' on part 3 are hard to calculate, there are 9 rocks shooting out at various points, all of which I believe can hit.
2. The 'rock' can be hit from frame 3, causing early explosion. This 'jumps' the move to frame 30. If Charizard isn't also hit the move ends the same time.
3. Only the first hit [1] incurs hitlag on Charizard, all other hits have 'projectile' properties, only applying to the opponent.
4. Second hit [2] is a TRAP, with no shield stun or hit lag, if you aren't doing anything but holding shield, you'll get hit by the shrapnal. FUX. Or if your Marth, Up B :D

Hit: 24-26 [1], 28-30 [2]; 30-50 [3]
End: 61
Hit Lag: 14 [1]; 1 [2]; 5 [3]
Shield Stun: 16 [1]; 1 [2]; 7 [3]
Advantage (shield): Anywhere from -21 to -9...
Hit Stun: 13 [1], ? [2], 24 [3]

QUESTIONS?
A move's "end time" (and subsequent hits) will increase in time by the amount of Hit Lag (and for multi hit moves, each occurance).
THIS MOVE HAS IASA FRAMES! It does? Well I wasn't aware, which one?
POKEMON TRAINER IS SO GOOD!? Lol, Marth is better.
CHARIZARD? IVYSAUR? When I have about 12 hours spare (probably next due for one of those in 4 months) or something. [seriously, this is evily tedious].
SEX? BABIES? POWER? MONEY? BILLY JEAN? Contact my non-existant lawyer or my secretary tcranter. You can contact Michael Jackson via Steel2nd.
What about the hitlag/shield stun of some moves? It's probably not important. The only moves that seem to make it matter are Squirtle's aerials. Maybe not? You tell me.

And finally, Pokemon Gold/Silver > Everything else.

I guess this means that Neutral Air is the aerial of choice for momentum-cancelling when you're getting knocked vertically. Horizontally, it's better to just do B-Air/F-Air in the direction of the stage, so you're moving towards the stage to counteract it immediately.

Thk u Shaya, <3

smexy.

reflex, during momentum canceling, isn't it important to end the attack quickly, as well as start up early? for example, you can withdraw to cancel a good amount of your momentum as soon as your attack ends. uair takes two more frames to come out but ends in exactly half the time.

You can start fast falling the moment an attack comes out.

Hence why it's better for vertical hits only.

Also, I'm sorry, but I forgot Squirtle's dash attack. I'll do this later.

- Added Squirtle's Dash Attack
- ADDED IVYSAUR :D

Also could have posted it in the thread I already started shaya

I went to all the trouble of doing a write up about how smexy you are and look what happens. next time i see you prepare for a beat down

A beatdown from my Dedede?

LOL @ D3 not being PT's worst matchup (or at least tied with Marth coz of that silly AWESOME death grab on Squirtle).

Also, sorry, I wasn't aware you made a topic ;_;. After doing squirtle for like 13 hours I didn't really "look" at the PT boards. Good thing that Ivy only took 4 hours (mainly due to not bothering with unfatigued lag data)

You're lol'ing because you beat me with a character that isn't one of PT's worst matchups? That in itself deserves some beat down :3

Thanks a lot for finishing the research though. It's much apprectiated :D

edit: just realised its not finished. meh!

yes I agree pokemon gold/silver>everything else.

I agree with demon fart Crystal is the ****
Also in the pokemon trainer boards homepage the number on the top says 151 like 151 original pokemon!!!

Awesome stuff...thanks a lot guys <3

whateva happened to Char no luv 4 Sisqo?

It takes a long time to do, and we just haven't got around to it yet. We might just do it tonight seeing as though I'll be going over to his place.

no rush Toby just havent seen n e updates on frames 4 a while... thought u guys forgot bout him.

:D how could I forget about zard?

I wub the zard <3

I sorta can't believe Toby twisted your arm into doing this.

There's no point in doing charizard frame data

I can tell you everything about him, and this covers all of his moves:

Start up: 0
Hit: 1-30
End: 3
Hit Lag: 1
Shield Stun: 70
Damage: 46-900%
Range: Longer than MK's god **** dtilt.

This applies to all of Charizard's moves, except for Flame Thrower, which hits back in time and breaks shields instantly.

S.D said:

I sorta can't believe Toby twisted your arm into doing this.

Click to expand...

It was easy enough. I just used ma natural charm :D

And shaya is pretty spot on regarding that zard frame data. zard owns.

Shaya said:

Rock smash is gay.

Squirtle is gay.

Charizard is gay.

This is gay.

You're gay.

Gay.

Click to expand...

Yeeeeesss Shaya, everything's gay.

Hahahahahaha oh yes indeed.

Oh and an update for you frame reading people...It seems that charizard gets an unusually large amount of invincibility frames on his ledge get up when he is past 100%. Like double that of marth. Could be handy. We'll get the specifics soon enough.

i thought something was up with zard's tail flicking get up attack, it seemed safer than most ledge get ups. not to mention it has pretty good range.

I havn't properly tested it, but compared to other characters, Zard seems to have a longer period of invincibility on ledge get ups. It foils me constantly.

I should test out ledge get ups for all the pokemon as well.

I'll put a minor promise saying I'll do zard this weekend, or at least start him.

I'm pretty sure forwards and backwards rolls have different invulnerability periods.

Updated... I'll do Zard specials later.

Any pieces of information people want confirmed?
Any 'moves' I'm forgetting? (get up attack maybe? the frame window to do a technique or something?)

Oh, Zard's uair is amazing.

Advantage: -48
Advantage (lagless): -20
Advantage Tip: -47
Advantage Tip (lagless): -19
*Note: Due to the extent of the hitbox, advantage can increase by 20 (i.e. ~0, +1)

what does this meeeeeeaaaaan

Just a guess, but:

"Advantage" is a field which compares the duration of moves to the stun they give to opponenets. If your move finishes before they can do anything, you are at an advantage because even after your attack you can do something else before they can respond.

In the case you specified they are in the negative, so the other character has an advantage equal to the amount of frames in each instance.

It's probably something like that.

oh and GOOOO SHAAAYAAA.

He's coming to genesis as well :D

Btw, advantage is on SHIELDS.

Advantage if you hit is

(END - HIT) + HITSTUN

(as Hit lag applies to both players equally).

In other words, a neutral air on someones shield, that hits on it's last possible frames if then fast fall'd to take advantage of "zero lag", would give you ([Advantage] - {2 or 5 (depending on jump type)}).

In simpler terms,
as the hitbox goes for such a long time, and you can hit an opponent at any of those frames, if you were to hit them with the last frame of the hitbox, you'd have a better advantage (as the move has to go through all frames of animation, even if the ongoing ones won't hit the same opponent twice).

im gay

Bump for completion (I think).

INTRODUCING! CHARIZARD'S SPECIALS!

SPECIALS:

Flame Thrower (neutral):
Hit: 19-25 (reiterating every 6 frames)
End: 67 (minimum)
Finish Lag: 25 (how many frames after you let go of 'special')
Hit Lag: 1
Shield Stun: 4 (close), 5 (far)
Advantage (shield): -21 (close), -20 (far)
Hit Stun: 11 (close), 7 (far)

Fly (Up):
Hit: 9 [1]; 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26 [2], 27-28 [3]
End: 35
Landing Lag: 30
Hit Lag: 5 [1]; 1 [2], 5 [3]
Shield Stun: 5 [1+2], 7 [3]
Hit Stun: 14 [1], ? [2], 13 [3]

Rock Smash (side):
Notes:
1. The individual 'hits' on part 3 are hard to calculate, there are 9 rocks shooting out at various points, all of which I believe can hit.
2. The 'rock' can be hit from frame 3, causing early explosion. This 'jumps' the move to frame 30. If Charizard isn't also hit the move ends the same time.
3. Only the first hit [1] incurs hitlag on Charizard, all other hits have 'projectile' properties, only applying to the opponent.
4. Second hit [2] is a TRAP, with no shield stun or hit lag, if you aren't doing anything but holding shield, you'll get hit by the shrapnal. FUX. Or if your Marth, Up B :D

Hit: 24-26 [1], 28-30 [2]; 30-50 [3]
End: 61
Hit Lag: 14 [1]; 1 [2]; 5 [3]
Shield Stun: 16 [1]; 1 [2]; 7 [3]
Advantage (shield): Anywhere from -21 to -9...
Hit Stun: 13 [1], ? [2], 24 [3]

holee **** now now you're going to be dolphin slashing out of all my rocks.

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


btw thanks <3

"4. Second hit [2] is a TRAP, with no shield stun or hit lag, if you aren't doing anything but holding shield, you'll get hit by the shrapnal. FUX. Or if your Marth, Up B :D"

so...is this a good thing or not?

It's a good thing Steeler.

In other words, if someone is shielding a rocksmash, if they're doing anything other than ONLY holding shield, they'll go STRAIGHT into another action, which the SHRAPNEL of the rocksmash will hit them for.

i.e.

You hit me with that 'second hit', I was holding backwards, and after that hit I just start to roll, get hit by shrapnel.

However, it does allow Marth to invalidate Rock Smash on shield (if he takes the full hit from the start), as Up B will always come straight out and be completely safe. As well as Bowser's UP b.

HOWEVER, at this point the shrapnel is active as a projectile, Marth may find himself safe from the 'rise' in the escape, but Bowser would probably still get hit.

Herro there friend O' mine.

Could you please check how long the hitbox for squirtle's dsmash is out?

Shaya how did you find the final hitbox frame for attacks?

When I did my data I had no idea so just left it all out :/

Spot dodges, spacings, etc.

Most 'hits' at different frames hit at different locations, meaning moving a character just slightly would allow you to see that a move actually misses frame 1 at one distance, but will hit them on frame 2.

There were also presumptions going on. Like If a move hits frame 1, and then i see it also hit frame 5 I presume the individual hit goes on for that long...

thanks for the explanation shaya.

Grab Frame data form Amazing Ampharos' thread...

[character, standing grab, dash grab, pivot grab]

Squirtle: 6, 8, 9
Ivysaur: 13, 13, 13
Charizard: 6, 8, 10

update pl0x

Those pivot grab values make me sadface

Would it be really hard to check how long Squirtle has super armour for on his f-smash? ^^

This thread needs to be stickied. (Y)

=3