KIDs Approaches, Mindgames, Small Comboes, and Situation Question thread

da K.I.D. · Mar 7, 2009

So this is pretty much, just like my KID AT thread, just another list of stuff that I do.

As most of you know, I dont own a Wii so the time that I get to play Brawl is very limited, and as such, there are many times that i lose games because I legitamately cant remember every single thing that my character is capable of. Therefore Im making this thread to list all of sonics possible approaches, so that way, I can come back anytime i need to to see the available options that I have. I am going to list all the mindgames available that I use as well

Also, Ive realised that just about every sonic has a few person specific comboes that they like to employ that they dont even think about. This thread is to make those things known to every one, because if we pool all of our stuff together we all get better.
A good example of this would be a combo I used to see espy do a lot.
SC to SDJ to fair. and than after the fair, he would double jump fair again to bait an airdodge, and punish the AD with a fastfalled up air.

Also, as most of you know, in the sonic xat, I sometimes get into arguements with certain people about situations in the game and how to approach said situations. People say mindgames cant be factored into matchup discussion, although I dont know how you can have an actual matchup discussion in a xat room. but anyways, Im also using this thread as a Q and A for all of you to ask me questions about situations you find yourselves in and how to deal with them. similar to tenkis recent pressure thread but more expansive.

So me thinks this is gonna be a pretty big thread, and once again, KID thread rules apply, if you arent contributing or being positive, dont bother posting. This is mainly just an informational thread so i can keep all my thoughts in one place.

Approaches!
SH fair
Boxob up airs.
Approaching bair spam.
Walking f tilt
SH nair
Empty SH
SHAD
Running grab
Running shieldgrab
SC from across the stage.
SC from half of FD away.
SC next to your opponent.
SD in the above 3 situations
Uncanceled HA
Canceled HA
Down Tilt Spam (it moves you forward, and may go under falco double lasers)
Hyphen Smash
Spring dair.
ASC (May be shield canceled, double jumped, or rolled through)
ASD (must be rolled through)
Spinshot:
a. Spinshot bair
b. CiTH combo
c. HA
d. nair
e. ASC
f. empty landing
g. SD:
i: released/canceled
ii: airial/grounded
iii: backwards/forwards
ISDJ
a. ghetto CiTH combo
b. fast fall up air
c. fast fall bair.
d. empty landing
Run behind their shield into skid stop into whatever the hell you want. best option is f smash.
Walk behind their shields into whatever floats your boat. again, best option is proly f smash

Player Specific Comboes/Mindgames:
KID:
Any move that knocks a character off of a BF platform to Jab Lock
Bair to running grab (works from about 10-25, and again around 70. Note that at the 70% variety, hyphen smash may be substituted for running grab, and for the low percent version, run behind SH bair may possibly be substituted for a regrab)
Both players being near the edge of a stage, down throw in toward the middle of the stage. since they are in the middle of the stage, and you are at the end, they will most likely roll away from you. which if you start running immediately, will setup up for a pivot grab back throw on the other end of the stage. As I recall, i do this in the 65-90% range
From a tutorial vid from way way back. as a form of edgeguarding, offstage ASC single hit, to HA
VSDJ to dair. not a combo but a mindgame to get around shields if you get caught stuck in your spin charging.
KID Combo:
SDH to up air (to up air) to spring through their body, to down air.
and now introducing..
KID combo 2:
empty landing behind opponent to turn around grab.
^^no joke, this is **** and mindgames at the same time.^^ very similar mechanics to the BTAG
up throw to ISDJ, to jump backwards back air. Works at about 10-20% below regular up throw spring up air percentages, and only works if they spotdodge.
If you go for up throw up air KO and they DI correctly:
reverse up b to lagless down air, to hyphen smash.
3rd hit of down smash to up smash/grab/dash attack. DI and damage dependant.
at about 150-170% (people love to stay in their shields at these %s)
run behind, to skid stop to reverse f smash.
Just thought of this and i will try it next time i play.
ground GR to jump behind bair/KID combo 2

Espy: Yea, im stealin your shiz, whatre you gonna do about it.
SDR to SDJ to fair, to double jump whiffed fair (opponent ADs) to fast fall up air.
down throw to walk forward to f smash (works at kill % because they love to roll into you for some reason.)
HYPNO SMASH:
when the opponent is on the ledge at kill %s, stand outside of their ledgehopped airial range and charge f smash, 7 times out of 10 they will whiff their ledgehop attack right into your f smash
When you need a kill.
Fsmash spam. (caution, will work more than it should.)

Memphischains:
Walk behind opponent to f smash. (super lulzy with sonic.)

Ayaz:
ASC double hit into grab from 0%.

Will add more as I see fit, feel free to ask me about any in game situation for any character, or add in your own personal combos.

Needs more ASC

Bluehedgehog · Mar 7, 2009

Hey Great Post, What is the Cat in the hat combo/ ghetto combo? Also how do you suggest sonic should approach when he is in the air and the opponent is on the ground? I see you do a down air-->spring-->down air in your matches that are on youtube. Also I notice when I play with sonic i don't use his tilts to 'full effect' when should I use tilts and what are they're advantages of approach rather than other moves (besides helping stale move negation)?

Tenki · Mar 7, 2009

CITH combo is spinshot > spring > d-air

i think o_O;

also, since when does Boxob have U-airs.

and,

RAR > fastfall airdodge > grab is pretty cool too.

Jim Morrison · Mar 7, 2009

It's his approach of just FF U-airs. Opponent is gonna **** bricks by your slow, slow approach. I always wanted a thread of this for myself to add stuff I do, but I don't have enough stuff. I suppose I'll just post some **** here when i feel like it.

JayBee · Mar 7, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
Approaches!
SH fair
Boxob up airs.
Approaching bair spam.
Walking f tilt
SH nair
Empty SH
SHAD
Running grab
Running shieldgrab
SC from across the stage.
SC from half of FD away.
SC next to your opponent.
SD in the above 3 situations
Uncanceled HA
Canceled HA
Down Tilt Spam (it moves you forward, and may go under falco double lasers) didn't know that. will add to game.

Hyphen Smash
Spring dair.
ASC (May be shield canceled, double jumped, or rolled through)
ASD (must be rolled through)
Spinshot:
a. Spinshot bair
b. CiTH combo
c. HA
d. nair
e. ASC
f. empty landing
g. SD:
i: released/canceled
ii: airial/grounded
iii: backwards/forwards
ISDJ
a. ghetto CiTH combo
b. fast fall up air
c. fast fall bair.
d. empty landing
Run behind their shield into skid stop into whatever the hell you want. best option is f smash.

Player Specific Comboes/Mindgames:
KID:
Any move that knocks a character off of a BF platform to Jab Lock
Bair to running grab (works from about 10-25, and again around 70. Note that at the 70% variety, hyphen smash may be substituted for running grab, and for the low percent version, run behind SH bair may possibly be substituted for a regrab)

Both players being near the edge of a stage, down throw in toward the middle of the stage. since they are in the middle of the stage, and you are at the end, they will most likely roll away from you. which if you start running immediately, will setup up for a pivot grab back throw on the other end of the stage. As I recall, i do this in the 65-90% range
From a tutorial vid from way way back. as a form of edgeguarding, offstage ASC single hit, to HA (i will try to add this)

VSDJ to dair. not a combo but a mindgame to get around shields if you get caught stuck in your spin charging.
KID Combo:
SDH to up air (to up air) to spring through their body, to down air. (SDH?)
and now introducing..
KID combo 2:
empty landing behind opponent to turn around grab.
^^no joke, this is **** and mindgames at the same time.^^ very similar mechanics to the BTAG
up throw to ISDJ, to jump backwards back air. Works at about 10-20% below regular up throw spring up air percentages, and only works if they spotdodge.
If you go for up throw up air KO and they DI correctly:
reverse up b to lagless down air, to hyphen smash.
3rd hit of down smash to up smash/grab/dash attack. DI and damage dependant.
at about 150-170% (people love to stay in their shields at these %s)
run behind, to skid stop to reverse f smash.
Just thought of this and i will try it next time i play.
ground GR to jump behind bair/KID combo 2

Espy: Yea, im stealin your shiz, whatre you gonna do about it.
SDR to SDJ to fair, to double jump whiffed fair (opponent ADs) to fast fall up air.
down throw to walk forward to f smash (works at kill % because they love to roll into you for some reason.)
HYPNO SMASH:
when the opponent is on the ledge at kill %s, stand outside of their ledgehopped airial range and charge f smash, 7 times out of 10 they will whiff their ledgehop attack right into your f smash
When you need a kill.
Fsmash spam. (caution, will work more than it should.)

Will add more as I see fit, feel free to ask me about any in game situation for any character, or add in your own personal combos.

Needs more ASC

please explain the red to me. the blue is what i know i like to do from the list here. i loves upair juggle mindgames

also, a good zoning tactic is Spinshot toward opponent > Spring > AC Dair away. moves you forward, gives the impression of an approach/atttack that you can still commit to when you want. and when the spring lands a little bit in front of the opponent it protects the landing, as well as the auto cancel letting you run too, or do it again. very solid zoning tactic i use against SH aerial spammers and when i have difficulty approaching, though this is more of a defensive way to do it.

Jim Morrison · Mar 7, 2009

JayBee said:
*explains CiTH combo

Yes, his combo is a very effective but still punishable nonetheless

thecatinthehat · Mar 7, 2009

JayBee said:
also, a good zoning tactic is Spinshot toward opponent > Spring > AC Dair away. moves you forward, gives the impression of an approach/atttack that you can still commit to when you want. and when the spring lands a little bit in front of the opponent it protects the landing, as well as the auto cancel letting you run too, or do it again. very solid zoning tactic i use against SH aerial spammers and when i have difficulty approaching, though this is more of a defensive way to do it.

that is the CiTH combo >_>

I'll do a write up on spinshot and CiTH combo sometime this week end.

da K.I.D. · Mar 7, 2009

Bluehedgehog said:
Hey Great Post, What is the Cat in the hat combo/ ghetto combo?
Also how do you suggest sonic should approach when he is in the air and the opponent is on the ground?
I see you do a down air-->spring-->down air in your matches that are on youtube.
Also I notice when I play with sonic i don't use his tilts to 'full effect' when should I use tilts and what are they're advantages of approach rather than other moves (besides helping stale move negation)?

CiTH combo is spinshot to spring dair

when opponent is on the ground dair to spring dair works, spacing bairs works and KID combo 2 works as well

use tilts for spacing and use downtilts for 0% comboes

da K.I.D. · Mar 7, 2009

ghetto CiTH combo is the same thing as a regular CiTH combo only starting with a ISDJ instead of a spin shot.

SDH = SpinDash Hop
spindash hop true comboes into some form of up air at just about all percents.

BTAG = Bair turn around grab. check the last few pages of my KID AT thread for details.

Ground GR = grounded grab release

Boxob up airs is to repeatedly do approaching SH up airs from across the stage to condition teh opponent, and than do something like a running grab, once youve conditioned them to expecting the up airs.
it has a box name, i just forgot it.

memphischains · Mar 7, 2009

the memphis is just walk by them and fsmash

i have witnesses of this great appraoch

da K.I.D. · Mar 7, 2009

walk past to f smash?

i definitely understand the concept but wouldnt that be too slow to actually hit people?

memphischains · Mar 7, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
walk past to f smash?

i definitely understand the concept but wouldnt that be too slow to actually hit people?

nah, people are just so stupid it works. i swear to god, mdrndaymercutio was the first one to call it the memphis smash. he watched about all of my matches one tournament and i hit with 95 percent of them

JayBee · Mar 8, 2009

i dont use CiTH combo to attack at all. its more of a spacing tool for me. and i dair away. ALso i use it out of Spin Charge by taping forward on the C stick.

Tenki · Mar 8, 2009

i don't think the point of it is to hit your opponent with the D-air at all.

it's basically just the spring, lol.

MalcolmM · Mar 8, 2009

lrn2catinthehat

JayBee · Mar 8, 2009

Tenki said:
i don't think the point of it is to hit your opponent with the D-air at all.

it's basically just the spring, lol.

good. because that's what i do. dairing as an approach? i thought i read that wrong...

thecatinthehat · Mar 8, 2009

JayBee said:
i dont use CiTH combo to attack at all. its more of a spacing tool for me. and i dair away. ALso i use it out of Spin Charge by taping forward on the C stick.

Tenki said:
i don't think the point of it is to hit your opponent with the D-air at all.

it's basically just the spring, lol.

JayBee said:
good. because that's what i do. dairing as an approach? i thought i read that wrong...

exactly.

MalcolmM said:
lrn2catinthehat

exactly.

Camalange · Mar 8, 2009

LOL

lrn2catinthehat

Anyway, something I've been doing recently (which I posted in the Kojin thread) is Sourspot Bair > Buffer Run > Grab. At low percents, the grab is guaranteed if you connect with the Sourspot Bair...although it has to be fast falled or at least connect close to the ground.

da K.I.D. · Mar 8, 2009

i believe i already have that combo in my section...

ive been doing that since last summer unfortunately...

but thats what i mean. everytime somebody says hey i figured out a new combo, somebody comes in and says that theyve been doing that for however many months. and i hate seeing that, so thats what this thread is for.

also, updated with an ayaz combo

Jim Morrison · Mar 8, 2009

Ayaz:
ASC double hit into grab from 0%.
____________
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221008

Are you sure that is Ayaz' combo O_o?

Also, if you put tips up here, put my tip up there: Play CPUs to train your DI if you got no human subject availabe.

Chis · Mar 8, 2009

I've still seen no vids to show it actually works.

Camalange · Mar 8, 2009

Chis said:
I've still seen no vids to show it actually works.

Well, there may not be video proof yet, but I've been able to recreate it so I can vouche for it.

Plus, Boxob was the first to mention it on the boards not Ayaz, but if he was the first to do it, then whatever. We already have plenty of Boxtechs anyway, lol

da K.I.D. · Mar 8, 2009

Ayaz actually did it to me in a match.

So he gets credit cause this is my thread.

lol

da K.I.D. · Jul 4, 2010

I wanted to bring this thread back, i will be using this as something like a KID answers questions and gives advice about sonic, thread.

so anybody that has any questions about anything sonic in brawl, go ahead and toss em out there.

Chis · Jul 4, 2010

Sadly I wasn't in the Xat when you guys were reviewing X's videos, however what were the pros and cons of his play style? How did he make it work?

JayBee · Jul 4, 2010

Sometimes I do an upthrow, then empty jump to mindgame and airdodge so i can regrab/attack as they come down. anyone eles?

B.A.M. · Jul 4, 2010

i do that at times, but honestly you just have way more options on the ground. buffered sh uair works if they dont AD instantly; and when they do usually a grab/jab/DA/dtilt buffered out of that sh ff uair works. Usmash with its stupid hurtbox is good vs counter attacks and AD. buffered utilt is great. Like the empty hop is cool and all but they usually will hit the ground before you. meaning theyre in the advantage. The way that situation usually plays out; especially in early percents doesnt favor that mindgame.

Hey so i found something kinda funny the other day. it seems when u get a first hit ASC>fair at the appriopiate timing, the opponent maintains the knockback of the ASC but is placed in a elongated knockback where they cant AD as quickly ( its like falco's dthrow jab laserlock) giving you enough time to buffer a spring uair ( well better frame advantage due to the trajectory). O and well timed ledgehopped uair>spring uair might just be a true combo (character dependent). Ive been using it and sh ff uairs (getting only the second hit ur best bet as it allows depending on DI some true combos out of spring) as killsetups.

tipper dtilt> uthrow is nice; I use it to punish metas dsmash or any quick move of that nature. tipper dtilt is awesome it gets u jablocks/tech-chases at later percents. sh ff uair crossups > any quick attack/grab is awesome. O another dumb kill setup ive been using is ode to Anithunis. first hit uair> buffered dsmash/ fsmash. The fsmash will hit them usually the opposite way. It only really works because of the conditioning of first hit uair> buffered utilt.

I do like your uthrow> spinshot bair KID; have been using that a bit again. However I think the thing ive been trying to place in my game more is using bdacus as a followup. Like jab combo>bdacus mid to late percents. tipper dtilt>bdacus and DA>bdacus are awesome options as well. I didnt think it made a difference for sonic due to our hyphen smash, but quick start frame wise and the fact that you start the actual upsmash early means the upsmash is out by the time u reach ur opponent. And its covering a ton of distance with its hitbox compared to hyphen smash.

Does any1 do ASC>footstool> quick HA? I like it; it sends your opponent at a nice low angle with an interesting hitstun. Kinda cool for gimping setups. I have also been looking at more spring shenanigans; i love my multiple spring traps.

The CiTH combo is awesome; it taught me how to use spring>dair in the first place; aim for a little infront of their shield. Its good for psuedo-pressure and giving you time to think sometimes; at least for me it is.

da K.I.D. · Jul 4, 2010

Chis said:
Sadly I wasn't in the Xat when you guys were reviewing X's videos, however what were the pros and cons of his play style? How did he make it work?

Cons. EXTREMELY repetitive and patternistic. Very very little use of tilts and non spindash moves
Pros. Hes fast, has good reflexes and is good at limiting options. We think that because he plays so fast and offensive it limits his opponents ability to address and counter the repetitive nature of his gameplay. We also noted that he spring dairs a TON. But lots of the time it goes unpunished because he puts the opponent in positions where the spring hits them, and when the spring hits them, its makes punishing the dair almost impossible.

JayBee said:
Sometimes I do an upthrow, then empty jump to mindgame and airdodge so i can regrab/attack as they come down. anyone eles?

I do this, but I dont try to bait a reaction with an empty short hop until mid %s starting around 30-40. Thats the new KID CG 2.0. But at early%s I just either up air, or stay on the ground and look for another grab. If they try to jump out, the up air will hit, if they airdodge or try to counter attack, I will be out of range and just grab their landing. If youre fighting marth, or falco, or any other character whos counter attack actually will hit you on the ground, then you can up smash to beat it.

I will address BAMs post later.

B.A.M. · Jul 6, 2010

look forward to it KID. O by the way, i dont see many sonics doing it so ill throw it out there. sh ff uair crossup is freakin amazing. especially if theyre OoS reaction speed isnt good because then you can use things like uair crossup> buffered dtilt> jab/grab/etc. or simply uair crossup>jab cancel/IDA/uair/grab/etc. It is very awesome because it allows you to pressure alot of players which might force the spotdodge which means free grab or more importantly free ASC combo. Oh and to beat out dairs ( most notably MKs) with uair is through a horizontal moving uair. Because of the nature of the hitbox, when moving this way the tip of the hitbox crosses more area. In the case of MK, uair actually outranges dair for some silly reason, however if tip doesnt connect we get stuffed everytime. So remember horizontal moving uairs do wonders! Seriously do them.

Orange_Soda_Man · Jul 9, 2010

Inserting random situation question ...
When generally would be a good time to DACUS? I've gotten the timing down pretty good, now trying to figure out good times to actually use it. (why is his timing so much more strict than Snakes lol)

Trent · Jul 9, 2010

USmash in general is just a bad move from Sonic, which can be easily punished if missed. You gotta be careful with it. If they're on a ledge above you and you're on the other side you could *try* if you know your opponent isn't gonna jump off.

I personally never use DACUS, I try a Delayed DACUS like, twice a tournament since that really throws people off the first time.

Browny · Jul 9, 2010

eh I dont think usmash is that bad, I use it a bit vs characters with bad/slow ledge attacks, especially when characters are above 100%. Just dont do it when you are in KO range incase they roll onto the stage - fsmash you off, otherwise a good reaction time is pretty much all you need to make it hit.

da K.I.D. · Jul 9, 2010

Orange_Soda_Man said:
Inserting random situation question ...
When generally would be a good time to DACUS? I've gotten the timing down pretty good, now trying to figure out good times to actually use it. (why is his timing so much more strict than Snakes lol)

Trent said:
USmash in general is just a bad move from Sonic, which can be easily punished if missed. You gotta be careful with it. If they're on a ledge above you and you're on the other side you could *try* if you know your opponent isn't gonna jump off.

I personally never use DACUS, I try a Delayed DACUS like, twice a tournament since that really throws people off the first time.

Excuse me sir, But if you would like to have situational questions posed to you, you are free to make a "Trent answers peoples situational questions" thread.

As such I disagree with alot of what you said.

IMO, Sonic doesnt have any BAD moves aside from maybe up tilt. Most of his moves are just mediocre and the trick is to find out when they will work.

But back to the original question.

when is a good time to dacus? my timing on the dacus is pretty poor so I usually use hyphen smashes instead in serious matches but since the physics are similar ill just tell you when i use that, and hopefully it should transfer over.

1.when somebody lands on a platform like on BF. Its very hard to punishwhen the opponent is on a plat form above you.
2. To stuff approaches, a good example I can think of is against very aerial characters like jpuff and peach, if they try to space an aerial on you, you can run up and up smash and itll usually eat through whatever they are doing.
3. to punish airdodges to the ground. Aside from the obvious spindashes, up smash I believe is his longest lasting move. so its the easiest to hit people with when they are trying to AD to the ground. A good set up for this is when you are on one side of the stage and bair them around 60 and they fly to the other side of the stage, you can run all the way back to them, and up smash in a way that would not only eat their possible counterattack move, but also still hit them if they try to AD.
3.5. Ive also had a lot of success using up smash to counter certain characters go-to countet attack moves. like against marth every time you hit them, theyll try to fair you out of your follow up, but up smash seems to beat that, same with falcos dair.

4. and this one is very in-depth.
When they only expect to block one attack. many of sonics attacks are one or two hit moves, so sometimes people will shield one or two hits and than immediately try to counter attack, and since up smash has 7-8 hits, theyll get munched by the rest of the attack.

I hope that was helpful

Also, @ BAM
I definitely did respond to your post but I got 502 ***** so dont think im ignoring you.

memphischains · Jul 9, 2010

dacus is honestly best used to approach someone coming back onto the stage when you're not already set up to edge guard,

or at least thats where I have had my most success.

sometimes weird stuff can happen when it clanks or shield pushes that hasn't been really figured out (remember the video where the dude goes from mid upsmash to nair?)

Trent · Jul 9, 2010

da K.I.D. said:
Excuse me sir, But if you would like to have situational questions posed to you, you are free to make a "Trent answers peoples situational questions" thread.

I don't pay attention to thread titles, I was just answering a question 'cause you decided to take a whole 99 more minutes to answer than I did. I mean, if you were really fast, you would have answered before me, right?

B.A.M. · Jul 12, 2010

I appreciate it KID its always good to hear ur input. usmash is good. Dacus is good. u can follow up things like bthrow at mid-late percents and get away fairly safely. its odd beginning hurtbox means if you call a sh aerial u win. Dacus ***** nado at standard height. Our buffered dacus in some cases can be used like wario's to follow up things. example: tipper dtilt> bdacus mid-late percents. Heck even full jab>bdacus. As KID said usmash is awesome own ppl on BF platforms 2. For instance. IF you bthrow at 0%starting from the underneath the edges of the top platform u get a bthrow> dacus/hyphen smash. usmash shield pokes as well and has a nice hitbox perfect of one of sonics specialties ; land camping.

BTW KID i really think you need to re evaluate the usage of utilt. Its vertical range is amazing and if u include the last hitbox its upper horizontal hitbox is a good disjoint as well. owns meta and lucarios dairs i believe. If you learn to buffer it out of sh ff uair it becomes an awesome frame trap. Some characters you get it virtually for free after an uthrow when buffered. when the hitbox is spaced properly there is very little ANY character can do about it. Even nado it just clanks and then u can punish when necessary. I suggest you try it out more my friend. I think utilt is underused.

seriously with the combination of sh ff uair>buffered utilt we are able to juggle the majority of the cast with ease. Because of how that frame trap operates to buffering the turnaround for the utilt if need is super easy. It also scares the opponent with its effectiveness allowing more dsmash kills during land camping.It shuts down approaches 45 degrees and up.

And just a little combo that ive been using for awhile but havent seen much of. bair>dtiltlock>ftilt> grab or if they dont tech jab lock. also bair>dtiltlock>full jab>grab.

I FINALLY FOUND THE SPACING FOR FSMASHING PPL DRILL RUSHING THE LEDGE!!! just fsmash aimed down at the utmost edge. Ive always known it, but now i got it fairly consistently. chillin at the edge is officially the best edgeguard for meta. We can fair the glide attack, walk and fsmash/dsmash nado that HAS to come forward at least on stage otherwise they die, edgehog Dimensional Cape, and Shield>buffer turnaround bair shuttle loop. Too fun.

da K.I.D. · Jul 15, 2010

syonryoken said:
Hey so i found something kinda funny the other day. it seems when u get a first hit ASC>fair at the appriopiate timing, the opponent maintains the knockback of the ASC but is placed in a elongated knockback where they cant AD as quickly ( its like falco's dthrow jab laserlock) giving you enough time to buffer a spring uair ( well better frame advantage due to the trajectory).

this also works with normal spindash as well, and instead of just fast falling a bair, you might want to consider just doing an empty fast fall to the ground and following up from there.
I believe I just covered this somewhere but w/e.

ima test this at some point.

O and well timed ledgehopped uair>spring uair might just be a true combo (character dependent). Ive been using it and sh ff uairs (getting only the second hit ur best bet as it allows depending on DI some true combos out of spring) as killsetups.

its hard to pull off in an actual match, since the mechanics of how it works doesnt allow you to make the up air invincible off the ledge, but the ledgehop up air thing gives you crazy frame advantage at all percents, sinceup air is like peachs aerials in that it auto cancels as soon as the hitbox is gone.

Also, regardless of circumstance, hitting with only the second hit of sonics up air is too inconsistent to be feasible.

tipper dtilt> uthrow is nice; I use it to punish metas dsmash or any quick move of that nature. tipper dtilt is awesome it gets u jablocks/tech-chases at later percents.

this is true. i actually should work on implementing more tilts in my game.

The only problem is that in the heat of a match its hard to actively achieve the spacing you need if you want the leg hit down tilt over the foot hit down tilt and vice versa.

sh ff uair crossups > any quick attack/grab is awesome. O another dumb kill setup ive been using is ode to Anithunis. first hit uair> buffered dsmash/ fsmash. The fsmash will hit them usually the opposite way. It only really works because of the conditioning of first hit uair> buffered utilt.

i was messing around with this in practice mode and its pretty gay lol. The problem is that you have to have something like this guaranteed, because if your trying to do first hit up air to anything, if it gets shielded youre going to get punished super hard cus its so laggy.

I do like your uthrow> spinshot bair KID; have been using that a bit again. However I think the thing ive been trying to place in my game more is using bdacus as a followup.

Its true, I AM quite amazing. I actually havent been doing this as much as should myself. lol.

Like jab combo>bdacus mid to late percents. tipper dtilt>bdacus and DA>bdacus are awesome options as well. I didnt think it made a difference for sonic due to our hyphen smash, but quick start frame wise and the fact that you start the actual upsmash early means the upsmash is out by the time u reach ur opponent. And its covering a ton of distance with its hitbox compared to hyphen smash.

How are you hitting with a dacus after a dash attack? dash attack puts the opponent right above you....

Does any1 do ASC>footstool> quick HA? I like it; it sends your opponent at a nice low angle with an interesting hitstun. Kinda cool for gimping setups. I have also been looking at more spring shenanigans; i love my multiple spring traps.

Not gonna lie, thats an effing terrible idea. when you pull a facejump on somebody, theres like 15 better options that would do so much more than just homing attack.
You can spring dair jab lock or even nair jab lock them at early percents.
you can SLOW combo them at mid percents
And I was actually talking about a little discovery I made a couple of weeks ago. and ASC footstool, to fastfall bair is a kill combo at about 120 or so. and it works on everybody, even though its a bit harder on small characters like mk, and skinny characters like zss and snake.

you might even be able to pull off ASC footstool fast fall first hit up air to f smash...

EDIT@ ur last post.
nado beats up tilt and up smash. any time it doesnt means that the mk was being ********. also, anytime you can hit the metaknight after clanking with his nado, means that the mk was doing a grounded tornado, which honestly, should NEVER ever happen.

why would you challenge lucarios dair with up tilt? 1st. im pretty sure it doesnt work, 2. if it trades, ur fkd. 3. im 90% sure theres no way you can just beat it outright.

I dont like up tilt after up throw, because the lag on the move kills most oppurtunities for followup at pretty much all spacings and %s., if you up air them, you can chase with more aerials, with a regrab it lets you follow up because its putting them in exactly the same situation. + 12%

bair is a beast set up for down tilt locks. super good, Ive been using it to great success lately.

lastly, there was a little tidbit that I discoverd a few months back and didnt share...
that thing you learned about beating metas drill rush with f smash. unless they perfectly space their up bs, it also OBLITERATES DKs recovery. thats part of why i think sonic beats dk, because unless they have perfect spacing, they go from a character that survives till 200% against us, to a character that dies at 120. and even if they do have the spacing to get under the f smash. then you can just go out there and beat their up be with ALL of sonics aerials.

B.A.M. · Jul 16, 2010

Nice to get that reply KID. yeah i messed up on that DA>bdacus that made no sense lol. DA setups for a turnaround dacus. So does bair, bthrow, etc. Ledgehop uairs even with hitting the first hit (while not really getting as much frame advantage) is a good setup for spring KOs.

Its funny u say HA in that manner is a terrible idea, when none of the ideas you present afterwards ( at least to my knowledge) arent guarenteed. quick Ha however is. This is something that works at all percents and at low percents actually sends alot of characters at a low angle due to the angle the HA hits. At the edge it sets up for wonderful edgeguarding opportunities. Again prove me wrong KID, because if first hit uair works from footstool, that alone is brilliance. It gives us another kill setup, a dtilt setups, a guarenteed link to tilts (especially utilt).

You urself would talk about how ridiculous it is to achieve that jab lock and berated the idea saying its impratical. Even nair jab lock; unless ur a fat character thats nots really happening at least to my knowledge. Again prove me wrong.

okay so ur saying nado beats out utilt. If spaced properly utilt clanks and we are free to block and punish. of course it beats it if its not spaced correctly, thats part of the game. That is often the case with usmash as well. Utilt is a great move. im telling u. learn how to aim it and ull be suprised. it seems to me ur problem isnt with utilt, but rather ur spacing and application of the move.

Even as u said before its hard to aim tipper dtilt; thats something that comes with more usage of the move. theres alot of move (meta dsmash wah??) that can be punished by tipper dtilt. The fact that it gives us a jab lock/ tech chase/ grab/DA/bdacus warrants learning its spacing.

Haha use ur uthrow>spinshot>bair tech. it works.

uthrow> uair is good and puts you in a better to follow up. However uthrow>utilt is close to a true combo as u can get. And i believe its foolish to say there is no chance for a followups. it leaves ur opponent at a 45 degree angle right next to you. heck you can get a sh ff uair, fair, nair (soft hit = another grab),dsmash, walk up utilt, KID CGGGGGG lol, side b and get ur invinsibility frames out intime, big characters like snake, D3, DK especially get owned by dtilt love and ddp da.

The thing that really gets ppl though KID is the application of BOTH our techs which is why I stress uthrow> utilt. It requires buffered AD to escape which means you get to do the stupid crap falco does when he just can walk up after a CG sometimes which nets him an AD and he gets to do whatever. I know it works because not only do I do it, but X advocated for it when He and I would play together. It creates a 50/50 basically.

about the Fsmash bit I KNOW!!! i too believed it was in our favor because of such things. I actually wrote some long reply to back up ur claims with some of my own opinions on the matchup. Then i got owned by stupid smashboards.

So i was looking around on smashboards and most ppl dont talk about DI ing nado. So ill just put a bit in here. When u get hit with the first hitbox it is imperative to DI AWAY from MK. Once there you can usually mash jump while Di ing to get out then punish. U can also fair or nair afterwards when u tumble a bit during getting hit by nado. always try to Di out and up. The last hitbox will often miss then and you can punish that way as well.

Always good to hear from you KID. Please showcase this ASC footstool>aerial to me, that ish would be huge. Well on someone besides the big cats.

Also i would love to say to all the sonics out there that we gotta better our offstage game. We can punish offstage and have tons of fakes that we can utilize compared to virtually any character in the game. Why dont we take advantage of that.things like SDJ towards a marth up stage to a spinshot back and edgeguard. We chase opponents to the blastzones and back safely. Our pressure game needs to be better offstage as a community.

none of that Kojin 2010 offstage bs. real tactics son. Keep doing work KID!

da K.I.D. · Jul 16, 2010

syonryoken said:
Its funny u say HA in that manner is a terrible idea, when none of the ideas you present afterwards ( at least to my knowledge) arent guarenteed. quick Ha however is. This is something that works at all percents and at low percents actually sends alot of characters at a low angle due to the angle the HA hits. At the edge it sets up for wonderful edgeguarding opportunities. Again prove me wrong KID, because if first hit uair works from footstool, that alone is brilliance. It gives us another kill setup, a dtilt setups, a guarenteed link to tilts (especially utilt).

yea, I gotta do some testing on this sometime soon.

You urself would talk about how ridiculous it is to achieve that jab lock and berated the idea saying its impratical. Even nair jab lock; unless ur a fat character thats nots really happening at least to my knowledge. Again prove me wrong.

the fact that it works on ROB, DDD and I think DK, means that its practical enough on enough characters that matter, to warrent working on and perfecting. spring jab lock is pretty impractical just because of how the multiple spacings for it work (its really gay) but nair jab lock is MUCH more practical and easy to pull off.

okay so ur saying nado beats out utilt. If spaced properly utilt clanks and we are free to block and punish.

The ONLY time this situation happens and sonic is able to shield, is when the mk is doing a grounded nado, because if the nado is even an inch off the ground, the up tilt will clank and stop, and the nado will keep going and hit the sonic before he can put his shield up.

of course it beats it if its not spaced correctly, thats part of the game. That is often the case with usmash as well. Utilt is a great move. im telling u. learn how to aim it and ull be suprised. it seems to me ur problem isnt with utilt, but rather ur spacing and application of the move.

Its going to take a lot of experimenting and a LOT of new discoveries with the move, in order for me to concede that up tilt is not an awful move. The only use that Ive found for it, is stuffing warios when they try to weave in ******y little dairs on you. and yes, my spacing with it IS bad, because the effing move has 0 horizontal range.

Even as u said before its hard to aim tipper dtilt; thats something that comes with more usage of the move. theres alot of move (meta dsmash wah??) that can be punished by tipper dtilt. The fact that it gives us a jab lock/ tech chase/ grab/DA/bdacus warrants learning its spacing.

Fair enough.

uthrow> uair is good and puts you in a better to follow up. However uthrow>utilt is close to a true combo as u can get. And i believe its foolish to say there is no chance for a followups. it leaves ur opponent at a 45 degree angle right next to you.

But it pretty much gives you 0 frame advantage, so theres no sence of pressure on the opponent so theres less chance of your followups working.

The thing that really gets ppl though KID is the application of BOTH our techs which is why I stress uthrow> utilt. It requires buffered AD to escape which means you get to do the stupid crap falco does when he just can walk up after a CG sometimes which nets him an AD and he gets to do whatever. I know it works because not only do I do it, but X advocated for it when He and I would play together. It creates a 50/50 basically.

Like I care wtf X says...
but heres the thing, lets say you start a game, and at the very beginning, you grab the falco, up throw him, andtry to up tilt, the falco knows he can get out of it, ADs it, and all of a sudden, your in lag, while he hits the ground right in front of you, so now, he gets a free grab on you, and instead of the 12% you put on him, he gets a guaranteed 50%, with easy follow ups that can put you up to 80% and even kill you. using the walk up f smash you just mentioned....

also, the difference between the falco walk up f smash thing and the sonic up throw up tilt thing, is that you have to attack with sonic to force the airdodge, where as with falco all you have to do is walk forward. With sonic, its a situation, where the opponent has to react to what the sonic does, and with falco its a complete option select situation. where falco can react to whatever the opponent does however he chooses.

about the Fsmash bit I KNOW!!! i too believed it was in our favor because of such things. I actually wrote some long reply to back up ur claims with some of my own opinions on the matchup. Then i got owned by stupid smashboards.

keep that move on the down low tho, i dont need it getting all over the boards.

So i was looking around on smashboards and most ppl dont talk about DI ing nado. So ill just put a bit in here. When u get hit with the first hitbox it is imperative to DI AWAY from MK. Once there you can usually mash jump while Di ing to get out then punish. U can also fair or nair afterwards when u tumble a bit during getting hit by nado. always try to Di out and up. The last hitbox will often miss then and you can punish that way as well.

good info. but lets say that you are on the left side of the stage, and mk nadoes you from the right, are you saying that you should DI up and to the left, or the right? Im not understanding fully.

Always good to hear from you KID. Please showcase this ASC footstool>aerial to me, that ish would be huge. Well on someone besides the big cats.

Its super good, but its massive hard to make work right, as you have to know the exact moment that the SD hits the opponent. Ill see if I can record some vids or something, but itll be hard since my wii is virgin and unhacked.

Also i would love to say to all the sonics out there that we gotta better our offstage game. We can punish offstage and have tons of fakes that we can utilize compared to virtually any character in the game. Why dont we take advantage of that.things like SDJ towards a marth up stage to a spinshot back and edgeguard. We chase opponents to the blastzones and back safely. Our pressure game needs to be better offstage as a community.

I dont know about other sonics but I feel you have to mix things up, sometimes go offstage and pressure, and sometime you have to go far out to feign pressure, and some times you just have to stay at the edge of the stage, and react to what they do and just do things dirty in a close quarters situation. lol

Keep doing work KID!

i plan too, I have a semi regional tourney next weekend, and Im pretty much guaranteed top 3 in doubles, and top 5 in singles. There MIGHT be a stream but either way, ill have results real soon.

B.A.M. · Jul 16, 2010

what im saying about uthrow>utilt, (i actually thought it was guranteed on falco but whatever) is that it IS an option select. You cant react to uthrow>buffered utilt. Buffer an airdodge or you get hit. Period. Granted in that falcos scenario it would be dangerous given what you said. However I am pretty sure it is guaranteed on falco if buffered due to his fall speed.

For the nado portion, in that scenario it would be left. Nado usually doesnt get you from right on EXACTLY top or below. Its usually comes from a side. You always DI toward the edge of the nado closest to you (thats what i meant by away). Nados last hitbox doesnt exist in that region provided u DI appropiately you should be able to punish the landing if you havent jumped out by then. and you never want to be stuck in the bottom center of nado. Otherwise ur screwed. So if you see nado and u think ur too late to do anything (aka u have bad reaction speed for the most part) jump and AD away. if u get caught u can at least break out towards the ending. Straight up though, VSDJ>ff fair or FH> ff fair owns nado. Every sonic should be competent at that now; our multiple hits aid us so much in that regard.

And trust me dude, utilt works for a whole more that just Wario's dair. And please test the sh ff uair>buffered utilt and buffered turnaround utilt frame trap KID. That thing works so well for me.

And dammit at the footstool>aerial bit. Thats why i say test things for urself. All these morons are telling its impossible and crap one day then it may work the next. Well at least ur on trying to actually figure it out. At least i hope so lol.

and lol at utilt having 0 horizontal range. You need to look at the hitbox. Its has no horizontal range AT GROUND LEVEL otherwise its horizontal range is actually quite good as you go higher up the hitbox. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260691
check it playboy. It is very stupid disjointed, it has to be spaced right. the trick with the frame trap is this: start your sh ff uair so that a) its spaced and b) u end right under them slightly in one direction or the other, and buffer utilt.

If this hitbox is spaced properly nado is not coming down that fast. This thing is ridiculous disjointed mah dude. Besides this isnt like o this move stuff nado. The point is that when spaced it can battle dair camping just like properly spaced uairs. You space it so they fall into the tip of the hitbox for both uair and utilt they are pretty safe; and great aerial counters on most of the cast.

Nair jab lock and stuff is worth knowing I definitely agree. What i am saying is that vs majority of characters thats usually not an option. Anyways i gotta bounce. Gotta watch inception. peace out brotha; PM me sometime. Im actually going to make some tutorial vids on how to deal with some moves and other advanced ish for sonic. You should definitely make that video with the foostool>aerial ish on all characters and test it out. Im down to spread some Sonic knowledge here.

Man study for MCAT and doing ish for this website sucks cuz i really want to start going to tourneys again. Im going to try to go 2 some regionals and get some solid footage. Seriously though. PM me son.

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