R.O.B. vs. Link Match-Up

sasook · Mar 7, 2009

I think I got the title right...

Anyways, the Link boards were discussing the matchup. However, all the Link mains moved from SWF to AiB because....well long story short there was a big fight with the mods. And since most R.O.B. players here don't have AiB accounts, it was agreed that the thread can be made here and then the posts will copied and pasted onto the thread over there.

~Link~

And.....Go!

Nintendevil · Mar 7, 2009

This is the second topic we've had about this...

Thank you.

XPretzelman · Mar 7, 2009

if we are on AiB may we post there instead?

EDIT: actually Dev is right....

sasook · Mar 7, 2009

sasook said:
Really guys, we need your input for the Link matchup XD. I saw some people were like "LOL AIB IS 4 nubz" on the closed thread I made, so I'll explain.

The SWF Link mains moved to AiB. It's the same people, just a different site. You're not going to be talking to people who are like "psch, link has the boomerang bombs and arrows rob has no chance." We fully agree the matchup is at least 7/3 your favor. We just really need input from you guys to get a more detailed discussion. We've had about....2 R.O.B. mains....that's it. Appreciate it, here's the link.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=659774#p659774

tl;dr - you're not talking to AiB noobs. It's the Link mains from SWF, we just don't post on SWF anymore, we moved.

Vorguen said:
What triggered the movement?

And why don't you just start a thread in the ROB / Link boards here on Smashboards then copy the replies to AiB?

Much easier and you'll get much more help in my opinion.

sasook said:
There was a large fight with the mods, it's a long story. I hate to be uncompromising, because your idea is pretty good, but no Link mains that moved post (intelligently - see the 'moved' threads on the SWF Link boards) on the SWF Link boards anymore. Truth be told, most of us just don't like it anymore. It became so bad to the point that it was becoming unusable and the community was falling apart.

Again, your idea is pretty good, but I can guarantee that out of the 30somewhat Link mains, you'll get maybe 2 of them to agree =/

Vorguen said:
Okay then do it in the ROB boards here, these have nothing to do with the Link boards so you yourself can strike up a thread here in these forums and see all the ROB replies. My idea was based on the fact that most of us don't have an account there, and do not want to waste our time making one there. However we do care about your predicament (at least I do) and if you are willing to work with us and make a thread here on SWF in the ROB boards and link us to it we'll do our best to give a hand.

sasook said:
Fair enough, I'll let them know about the idea and hopefully we can get a thread going over here.

sasook said:
Alright guys, after much debate, the Link boards have agreed to discuss it here. Now, my only question is am I allowed to make a total new thread for it, or should we just discuss it in this thread? I'd PM the most active mod here, but I don't know who it is.

Sudai said:
That'd be me. Just make a new thread for it.

Really guys, your input is greatly appreciated.

galekill · Mar 7, 2009

Sasook is ofcourse, correct. We're here to be prodctive. So, if no one else is willing, I'll be the first to wander under the spotlight and make a spectacle of myself.

R.O.B. is a very difficult match up for Link, easily one of his hardest for a few good reasons..

1. R.O.B. Can out camp Link. Link has no approach, really and being out camped hurts him bad.

2. R.O.B. has an amazing offstage game. Link's recovery is crap. 'Nuff. Said.

3. Link is just generally slow and heavy, utter bait for R.O.B.'s up close shenanigans.

Link's has to maintain mid range, not too far, or he's useless, not too close, or he might aswell jump into the ****. Link can theoreticly space R.O.B. (though it can be made difficult by lasers and gyros.) with Zair and his disjointed hitboxes.

If you're Link fighting R.O.B., ban FD, it's a great stage for R.O.B. to camp. CP Norfair. You can counter his camping much easier here, and R.O.B. has a blind spot underneath him you can exploit much easier. Combined with the layout of the level and it's low cieling this is good.

If you're R.O.B. fighting Link, and he doesn't ban FD, CP FD, Link likes platforms and has a very hard time countering your camp here. Ban Norfair.

Did I do gud?

sasook · Mar 7, 2009

What's nice about this matchup is that there some top players of both characters who have played each other (all in your video archive already):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKSF8AN74nw (Deva vs. ShadowRob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_AYl0oKKQM (Deva vs. ShadowRob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEySCHiA3Rk (Legan vs. Overswarm)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb084O3o1cc (Legan vs. Overswarm)

But yeah, this matchup is heavily in R.O.B.'s favor, at least 7/3 and most likely 8/2. Even though Link has good DI, getting him offstage means a loss of a stock. R.O.B.'s offstage game is just too good.

His ftilt is incredibly long, he's got that grab release -> dtilt CG, and that insanely fast dsmash too. The aerial game is naturally in his favor, and Link has.....disjointed hitboxes and some projectiles. Not much going for him.

The one thing that may throw off the R.O.B. at first is Link's enormous amount of ATs. I'll make a list when I get the chance.

Ruse · Mar 8, 2009

It's really nice of you to come onto the R.O.B. boards and, without asking our primary mod who's running the match-up thread, to create a thread mirroring the official ones. We vote on who we're going to discuss next.

F***ing AiB noobs. Your meta game is like a year behind ours.

Mr.E · Mar 8, 2009

You seem to be quite WRONG, Ruse, although I do wish he did not use a mirrored title.

<---- No real matchup experience. *shrug* Yay videos? The ShadowROB ones are quite recent at that, I remember watching them.

Legan · Mar 8, 2009

Ruse said:
It's really nice of you to come onto the R.O.B. boards and, without asking our primary mod who's running the match-up thread, to create a thread mirroring the official ones. We vote on who we're going to discuss next.

F***ing AiB noobs. Your meta game is like a year behind ours.

Grow up, get over yourself, and chill the **** out. It's not in the least bit that serious that you have to insult the guy.

jjvirus · Mar 8, 2009

Nvm...appearntly Sudai said so <_<

JCaesar · Mar 8, 2009

Ease up a bit Ruse. Sudai personally gave him permission to make this thread.

There's not much I can add. The only good Link I've played is NinjaLink's, and I won every match even though he's a significantly better player than me and knows all the ATs. I didn't even camp much because it was friendlies. ROB just ***** this matchup. Most of the stuff that works on TL works on Link even better, and Link is a joke to gimp.

80:20, ban Norfair, gg.

Sudai · Mar 8, 2009

I did indeed give permission to make this thread. I would appreciate if the title were changed, but that's not a big deal imo (or I would just change it myself. lawl) but aside from that, this thread is perfectly fine. If you spammed or flamed, you have been warned/infracted already, so stop with that.

As for the actual match-up.

ROB outcamps link from far away, easily. Link has to approach to the midground. All of links projectiles are slugish and can be taken care of with a quick laser when the link SH/Full hops. The only really annoying thing ROB has to watch out for is ZAir, IMO. An aggro ROB would probably actually work in this match as well if you know the general Link playstyle.

Links like to Jab Cancel into a lot of things from what I remember. Doesn't matter if you just camp and throw them off stage.. That's really all this fight is about...throw Link off stage. :/

That's probably the most I'll be able to contribute unless I'm correcting someone. I play both a good amount, but I've never played a good Link with my ROB..and I've never played a ROB with my Link at all.

80-20 ROB.

Also, JCZ is right.. Ban Norfair. Links should ban either Rainbow Cruise or Jungle Japes. Whichever you're least comfortable on. If somehow both are banned already, ban Norfair.

Incurable_Necrophile · Mar 8, 2009

Ruse said:
F***ing AiB noobs. Your meta game is like a year behind ours.

They used to be F***ing SWF noobs, so no it isn't... And being nice would be cool, I joined specificly to talk about this match.

I'm going to use my first post ever on SWF to disagree with Sudai's stage advice. Rainbow Cruise could actually be a good stage for Link vs ROB because of how easy it is to control it with Link's projectiles and exploit ROB's underside blindspot. Also, I think FD is worse for Link vs ROB.

P.S. Thanks for lettin us compromise and discuss here, Sudai.

Sudai · Mar 8, 2009

Incurable_Necrophile said:
I'm going to use my first post ever on SWF to disagree with Sudai's stage advice. Rainbow Cruise could actually be a good stage for Link vs ROB because of how easy it is to control it with Link's projectiles and exploit ROB's underside blindspot. Also, I think FD is worse for Link vs ROB..

The problem with that is that ROB can also easily control the stage with his projectiles and there's..two parts of the stage where ROB's blindspot can be taken advantage of. One happens to be the spot where Link is most gimpable (going up on the left side) and a ROB doesn't have to move up quickly so his blindspot is still fairly covered. Conversely, Link has to move up quickly or fear getting gimped. The other portion our blind spot would be an issue is going down on the right side, but that's a moot point as well because even if the Link has control of the right side and goes down first, ROB can ride a doughnut down and be fairly safe.

I'd take a Link to Frigate or Japes personally, but there are benifits to taking them to RC. : )

Incurable_Necrophile · Mar 8, 2009

You know what, I've changed my mid about banning FD, FO is worse for Link.

JCaesar · Mar 8, 2009

I <3 it when Sudai breaks out the red text.

On topic: Frigate would definitely be my counterpick of choice, if for some reason I had to counterpick a Link. However, so many counterpick stages are gonna be autolosses for Link that I would suggest banning FD anyway so you don't get it for the first game. Link really needs to win the first match to have a shot at winning the set. (obviously this doesn't apply if you're doing striking)

Ruse · Mar 8, 2009

jjvirus said:
Nvm...appearntly Sudai said so <_<

JCaesar007 said:
Ease up a bit Ruse. Sudai personally gave him permission to make this thread.

Well, s***.

Sorry, thought this was just more "LOL PLZ TLK BOUT LINK NOW" crap.

Wolydarg · Mar 8, 2009

JCaesar, how come you'd ban FD? I feel like our projectiles still outspam him at a stage as big as FD.

Sudai · Mar 8, 2009

Woly, he recommends Link bans FD.

sasook · Mar 8, 2009

Ruse said:
It's really nice of you to come onto the R.O.B. boards and, without asking our primary mod who's running the match-up thread, to create a thread mirroring the official ones.

sasook said:
Alright guys, after much debate, the Link boards have agreed to discuss it here. Now, my only question is am I allowed to make a total new thread for it, or should we just discuss it in this thread? I'd PM the most active mod here, but I don't know who it is.

Sudai said:
That'd be me. Just make a new thread for it.

Ruse said:
F***ing AiB noobs. Your meta game is like a year behind ours.

sasook said:
Really guys, we need your input for the Link matchup XD. I saw some people were like "LOL AIB IS 4 nubz" on the closed thread I made, so I'll explain.

The SWF Link mains moved to AiB. It's the same people, just a different site. You're not going to be talking to people who are like "psch, link has the boomerang bombs and arrows rob has no chance." We fully agree the matchup is at least 7/3 your favor. We just really need input from you guys to get a more detailed discussion. We've had about....2 R.O.B. mains....that's it. Appreciate it, here's the link.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=659774#p659774

tl;dr - you're not talking to AiB noobs. It's the Link mains from SWF, we just don't post on SWF anymore, we moved.

Ruse said:
Well, s***.

Sorry, thought this was just more "LOL PLZ TLK BOUT LINK NOW" crap.

It's all good, we all make mistakes.

Ruse said:
We vote on who we're going to discuss next.

Mr.E said:
although I do wish he did not use a mirrored title.

Sudai said:
I would appreciate if the title were changed

Sorry, I felt I should be consistent. I will change it.

Sudai said:

As for the actual match-up.

ROB outcamps link from far away, easily. Link has to approach to the midground. All of links projectiles are slugish and can be taken care of with a quick laser when the link SH/Full hops. The only really annoying thing ROB has to watch out for is ZAir, IMO. An aggro ROB would probably actually work in this match as well if you know the general Link playstyle.

Links like to Jab Cancel into a lot of things from what I remember. Doesn't matter if you just camp and throw them off stage.. That's really all this fight is about...throw Link off stage. :/

That's probably the most I'll be able to contribute unless I'm correcting someone. I play both a good amount, but I've never played a good Link with my ROB..and I've never played a ROB with my Link at all.

80-20 ROB.

Also, JCZ is right.. Ban Norfair. Links should ban either Rainbow Cruise or Jungle Japes. Whichever you're least comfortable on. If somehow both are banned already, ban Norfair.

Click to expand...

Incurable_Necrophile said:

I'm going to use my first post ever on SWF to disagree with Sudai's stage advice. Rainbow Cruise could actually be a good stage for Link vs ROB because of how easy it is to control it with Link's projectiles and exploit ROB's underside blindspot. Also, I think FD is worse for Link vs ROB.

P.S. Thanks for lettin us compromise and discuss here, Sudai.

Click to expand...

RC is normally a good stage for Link (his second best) but I believe because of R.O.B.'s superior air control, it'd actually be bad for him. And yes, thank you Sudai.

Wolydarg said:

JCaesar, how come you'd ban FD? I feel like our projectiles still outspam him at a stage as big as FD.

Click to expand...

I feel they would too, to be honest.

Link has a ton of ATs. They are the following:

DAC
bomb DAC (DAC with bomb in hand)
bombsliding
ZAC - Z drop, Aerial, Catch, basically doing Link's aerials with a bomb in hand
bombsmashing - doing an fsmash with a bomb in hand
arrow canceling - just eliminates the startup lag
jab canceling
pivot boosting - may be used for mindgames, gives Link the ability to use any move while still moving at his dash speed
jab lock and/or bombstoollocking
gale guarding - will not work for this matchup
wavebouncing - useless, never seen it used in battle, ever
zedging - super edgehogging, basically, AKA useless for this matchup
bombzairing - doing a zair with a bomb in hand
craq walking - similar to a small waveland, after some aerials Link's lack of traction lets him do a small retreating slide
smooth booting - see wavebouncing
boomerang canceling - see wavebouncing (this just reduces landing lag on the dair)
invincibombing - not useless, but i've never seen it used in battle
jump canceling
the phantom boomerang - see invincibombing
double/triple arrow - 2 or 3 arrows in one go, it's standard arrow spam

Though to be honest, I can't see any of these altering the matchup. 8/2 R.O.B. IMO

Ray_Kalm · Mar 8, 2009

Before I say anything, I'd like a R.O.B main to answer this question for me.

Is grab release to DTilt, or anything else, a true combo on Link?

Kingdom Come · Mar 8, 2009

This battle is (no-duh) one of Link's worst match-ups.

My advice from my personal experience is....

1) (No-duh) Stay on the stage 24/7. The very second R.O.B. gets you in the air your screwed.

2)You gotta be able to have close combat. Both characters can use projectiles and what not from a distance, so if your Link you gotta be able to come up tight or your screwed.

3)Be a Z-air spam *****. This is what will annoy R.O.B. mainers more than anything.

If this wasn't much help then my bad. I'm not very good at explaining things, this was my first attempt.

JCaesar · Mar 8, 2009

Wolydarg said:
JCaesar, how come you'd ban FD? I feel like our projectiles still outspam him at a stage as big as FD.

Sorry if I was unclear with my pronouns. I meant Link should ban FD because it's the worst neutral for him in this matchup. And winning the neutral is extremely important.

Ray_Kalm said:
Before I say anything, I'd like a R.O.B main to answer this question for me.

Is grab release to DTilt, or anything else, a true combo on Link?

I don't think so. Pretty sure you can shield it.

Kingdom Come said:
3)Be a Z-air spam *****. This is what will annoy R.O.B. mainers more than anything.

Very true. Zair is by far the most annoying thing to deal with that Link can do.

sasook · Mar 8, 2009

I know that Link can DI out of R.O.B.'s dsmash if he's quick enough (predicting after a spot dodge, usually) by tapping up on both sticks. So maybe that nullifies the dsmash a little? Not a whole lot, but a little. What's are R.O.B.'s main KO moves (assuming we manage to live to a decent percent without getting gimped)?

I'd assume nair and bair are some, and probably fsmash, right? R.O.B. doesn't have a lot of vertical killers, correct? So maybe Link should CP a stage with a low ceiling and wide sides.

Hmm...is Yoshi's Island (Melee) allowed in tourneys? I think that may work for Link. Another, not as good option, would be Pirate Ship I think. Stops the gimps....but lets us get straight up dair spiked really easily. I'm still sticking with 80:20 R.O.B.

Ray_Kalm · Mar 8, 2009

I'm sure FSmash isn't one of R.O.B's kill moves, as it lacks quite a amount of power. USmash, NAir, BAir, and DAir (as a spike) are his only kill moves. Not a lot it seems.

Link is heavier, stronger and possesses a lot of kill move, around 2-3 more than R.O.B. This match-up is still in R.O.B's favor though, his safe off-stage gimp abilities, with Link's recovery, could prove to be quite a problem. Along with his on-stage game and flexible aerials. R.O.B's also close to ungimpable for Link.

35:65 R.O.B's favor.

sasook · Mar 8, 2009

More than that IMO, any time R.O.B. feels pressured by us he can just run away and camp us....and he can EASILY outcamp us. He can even camp us offstage if he wants to. And yeah, maybe he's only got a few heavy hitters for KO moves, but the fact that just about any of his aerials can easily gimp us make up for it. I'm sure you've seen those matches Ray, it's rare to see Deva and Legan struggle that much in a match. More than 65-35, I'm sticking with 20-80 R.O.B.

Mr.E · Mar 9, 2009

FSmash is ROB's strongest kill move that doesn't involve shooting his *** at people.

ZOM~B · Mar 9, 2009

ROB shouldn't have to outright kill Link in this matchup. Watch out for fresh f-tilts at mid percents (80ish) hitting you with bad DI setting up for a good edgeguarding opportunity... ROB shouldn't need more than one opportunity to edgeguard.

soloSHADOWROB · Mar 9, 2009

Those vids are very recent, to be honest I use to think Link was just a breeze...until I played Deva, hes really good with him.
For Link however (IMO) it depends on what stage you choose, any neutral stage should be hard for Link because its leveled and its small giving Link little room to run or its too big making it hard for Link to approach.
Norfair is a great level for him, I didnt ban it against him because I wanted to get a feel for the match-up especially on that level.
Deva even took a match off DSF.
I think the match varies on the level but in the end it doesnt really matter, it is still bad.
Id say any neutral stage or stage that has nothing to save you from being gimped is like a 80-20 (ROBs favor)
But if you go something like Norfair, Pirate Ship or maybe even Japes then Id say 70-30 (ROBs favor)
Not a big difference but I really hope by Link players who watch that fight are inspired to continue maining him.
DEVA DEFINITELY HAS THE BEST LINK IMO!!!!!!

JCaesar · Mar 9, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
I'm sure FSmash isn't one of R.O.B's kill moves, as it lacks quite a amount of power. USmash, NAir, BAir, and DAir (as a spike) are his only kill moves. Not a lot it seems.

Link is heavier, stronger and possesses a lot of kill move, around 2-3 more than R.O.B. This match-up is still in R.O.B's favor though, his safe off-stage gimp abilities, with Link's recovery, could prove to be quite a problem. Along with his on-stage game and flexible aerials. R.O.B's also close to ungimpable for Link.

35:65 R.O.B's favor.

Fsmash actually is a pretty good kill move if it's fresh. And really, if ROB is hitting you horizontally, he doesn't need to kill you outright anyway, since you're Link (no disrespect but it's true). A quick laser/gyro eats the 2nd jump and it's a stock, or at least gives us time to get out there and fair you for the gimp. Bthrow and fthrow can also be used as kill moves in the same way.

Usmash isn't really that good. It's hard to hit with and your dair will beat it anyway.

Is Link heavier than ROB, really? o_O

Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Pirate Ship are generally banned, at least in Atlantic North.

ipitydatfu · Mar 9, 2009

i think link is slightly heavier than ROB, and a falls faster

Ray_Kalm · Mar 9, 2009

Fair ... Uair ... Avg

156 ... 154 ... 155 ..... Link
155 ... 150 ... 152.5 ... R.O.B

Here are their vertical, horizontal and average weights, attacked (at those percentages) by Marth's Fair and Uair. So basically, Link's a bit heavier horizontally, and quadruple as heavy than R.O.B vertically than he is horizontally.

Twilght Link · Mar 9, 2009

Link should try whenever he can to dodge-> grab ROB's gyros and then either zair, zac, or up throw it as to keep ROB from reusing it for as long as possible. And yeah, if Link loses the first match, he's pretty much done for. ROB's aireals go through the gale i think so using it to defend us while offstage is futile. Link beats us at close range and long range so mid range is the way to go. ROB is big so spacing via zair is key to the matchup.

sasook · Mar 9, 2009

Shadowrob hit it on the nose, pretty much. I wonder if abusing disjointed hitboxes works in the match? And yeah, Link is heayv. He normally lives to about 170-180% with good DI, but of course, R.O.B. has those insane gimping skills. Is it worth learning the whiplash for this match or it wouldn't help much?

BTW, I still think Yoshi's Island (Melee) might be a good stage, but I dunno if it's tourney legal (I know it's SBR list legal). Thoughts?

Ray_Kalm · Mar 9, 2009

Doesn't R.O.B have a tougher time against Link on Battlefield?

sasook · Mar 9, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Doesn't R.O.B have a tougher time against Link on Battlefield?

Apparently he's got a blindspot underneath him. But this match made me stop believing that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_AYl0oKKQM (second match)

Ray_Kalm · Mar 9, 2009

sasook said:
Apparently he's got a blindspot underneath him. But this match made me stop believing that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_AYl0oKKQM (second match)

eh.

and, wow. ZAir really does pressure R.O.B.

Raffi815 · Mar 9, 2009

Lol **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** oooooooooo
**** **** **** ****
**** ****
****

sasook · Mar 10, 2009

Is it true that R.O.B. cannot momentum cancel? If not, is it true his momentum cancel is poor?

JCaesar · Mar 10, 2009

It's true ROB has a poor momentum cancel, but he's still heavy and if he doesn't die outright he will ALWAYS make it back. Pretty much the only character that even has a shot at gimping him is MK, and on top of that ROB is basically unspikeable. I'd take ROB's poor momentum cancel + amazing recovery over any other character's momentum cancel + recovery any day.

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